Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:43 AM

The beer's cheap for a reason. It tastes crap because it's out of date!

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:46 AM

>>I am not sure if this has been mentioned before but one of the most succesful of the modern pub "chains" has been Wetherspoons.

No music or singing, cheap beer and no TV sets.

Wetherspoons are currently in the process of reviewing this policy I believe so that it is not a blanket policy (they did have some pubs owned by them and differently branded eg Camden Lock which have music)

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Lancashire Lad
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:17 AM

Refreshed for the benefit of those reading the 'Whitby Plough' thread.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Avro Simones
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:19 PM

My friends and I often frequent a Sam Smiths pub in the centre of London, which used to have some really great CD's playing in the background - when we asked why the music had gone, we were told 'Nothing to do with us, it's the management'.

What we did was to have a singaround between us, for a few hours before closing time. No-one stopped us and people enjoyed it;

In the end, music will prevail.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:55 PM

I am not sure if this has been mentioned before but one of the most succesful of the modern pub "chains" has been Wetherspoons.

No music or singing, cheap beer and no TV sets.

Could this be the model that Humphrey is following?

Just a thought and I personally think that landlords should be able to do as they wish. Within reason of course.

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Lancashire Lad
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:20 AM

There was supposed to a meeting of Sam Smiths management or perhaps it was the pub managers(?) recently regarding this problem. Has anybody heard anything?

Lanky

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: pavane
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 02:57 AM

Heard this issue get an airing on Mike Hardings program yesterday.

He ALSO seems to have got the reason mixed up between PELS and the PRS/PPL fee, but never mind.

As he blamed the loss of folk clubs on the PEL fiasco, it will presumably help to raise the profile of that problem.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Beast of Farlington
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 09:12 AM

Speak for yourself! ;-)

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 08:48 AM

... And fewer live visitors

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Beast of Farlington
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 08:17 AM

"Beast

That's what I am saying, a little pressure to have a little music combine the best of both worlds .............. "

That's alright, then. We agree.

Our pub in Farlington used to have tasteful music from a CD player supplied by the landlord which was dicreetly played in the background. It was never intrusive.

Now a funeral parlour has more atmosphere.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 06:38 AM

Sorry to hear about Durham.

It may not be a rashly made choice but in the case of Farlington it has not had the desired effect.

The pub used to be EXACTLY what you describe and what Mr Smith wanted. It was a lively village pub where people went to talk. It had a range of clientele from farmers and farm workers, to managing directors who all went to drink (liberally) and chat. For a pub in the middle of nowhere it was surprisingly busy. People went because there would be the hubbub of conversation, a diversity of views and you could also get anything mended (!) or help on pretty much anything.

What has happened now?

In an attempt to replace some of the lost trade they are now trying to encourage (younger) people in to play pool and people to come in and eat. Apart from early friday evenings there are now fewer people who go in to talk - primarily because there is noone in there. On a monday or tuesday it is now down to selling about 18 pints in the evening. Last Wednesday the Area Manager went in at 10pm and I think there were two or three people in - she apparently does not know why the music has gone. (There was some thought that she might have gone to check if we were there which I think unlikely. At the same time, there were 20 of us singing and playing in our new local pub which grows weekly).

At Farlington (and more obviously at Nellies) we sang in a separate area so that people could still drink and converse. In fact there were always a group of people in the pub in the other bar when we were there - now there are pretty much none.

I believe there is a management liaison meeting tomorrow at Smiths where hopefully more will be made clear. More managers are leaving I hear and there is considerable bad feeling that the brewery is making it harder and harder for the managers to do things - functions are out as music is not ok, they can't do this, they can't do that - as it becomes harder to keep takings to previous years levels they put their bonuses in jeopardy etc They have been here before though. They stopped discos some time ago in certain places and killed a load of trade off. So little will probably change.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 06:26 AM

Beast

That's what I am saying, a little pressure to have a little music combine the best of both worlds ..............

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 06:24 AM

Since the removal of TV , Jukebox and background music from the sam Smiths pub (the Windmill Hotel Pendlebury) where I drink I started to take my Guitar and Melodeon in on Sunday afternoons. A small session developed and the Landlady was happy about it. She had to stop it however as it was mentioned to her area manager and he said no live music.

Not a great loss as it was only me and a dozen locals but the die may be cast.

Spot

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Beast of Farlington
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 06:07 AM

This isn't a black and white debate though, Raggy. Pubs can cater for lots of different tastes. So music on one night, no music on others doesn't 'kill' the art of conversation at all, but rather gives both audiences what they want.

I sometimes like to sit in a pub with no music and play music at other times so the audiences often contain the same membership. It's the blanket 'all or nothing' view which makes these disputes so difficult to resolve.

As a nation we seem to line up on opposite sides so often, rather than being able to hold a range of views according the situation.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 04:04 AM

Heard at the weekend that this decision (stopping entertainment in Sam Smith's pubs) was first mentioned by Humphrey Smith some 3 years ago, so it is not a rashly made choice. He is reported to have indicated that he wanted his estate to revert to old fashioned drinking establishments were people could sit and converse. Speaking for myself I actually welcome that point of view, however it may be worth our while to try and convince him that when the majority of pubs were like this they frequently had, someone playing the piano on a Friday or Saturday night and that this added to the ambiance of the pub. In one respect he is to be applauded, in as much as the majority of pubs now cater primarily for the 18-30 age range and to have pubs that cater for another section of society is not actually all that bad.

There, that'll put the cat well and truly amongst the pigeons

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Blowzabella
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 03:28 PM

Oh - No Not the Colpitts??? I used to go there with my first ever boyfriend in the late 70s

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: John Routledge
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 10:42 AM

Ironically it is the financial effect of the closure of the best attended clubs such as Durham which may re-activate Sam Smith's business brain.

The atmosphere was wonderful. A full on Folk Club. So sad.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Edain
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 09:24 AM

To add to what has already been said, Durham City Folk Club which has been meeting in a Sam Simths pub since the 80s was told on thursday that after that night they could not return. The landlady wants us there and freely admits that the takings will be significantly down without us. Apparently however, a manager's comment was 'why haven't you got rid of them before?'

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 07:47 AM

I didn't SAY they were BRIGHT!...

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: pavane
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 07:24 AM

You still have to pay the tax, even if you burn the money...

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 06:05 AM

So NOW I know where the 'Toowoomba Business Values' came from - they'd rather dig a hole, put the money in there, set fire to it and piss on it, than pay pay Tax on it - the more profit they make, the more Tax they pay...

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: John Routledge
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 10:12 PM

Looks like Sam Smiths have Traditional Yorkshire Values.

Pity they have no Traditional Yorkshire Music.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 05:54 PM

I was talking to a Landlord today about this - one who works for another brewery I might add.

Certainly from what he knows the family seem a little eccentric. The Sam Smith pub does not stock other products - house spirit brands, house lager brands, house beer. All the beer is delivered in 36 gallon barrrels so if it the landlord has a few quiet days - tough - it goes off. (I understand the brewery stands the loss). No advertising outside - A boards or similar not allowed. Nothing to identify Sam Smiths.

Low prices are reputed to be so the Chancellor gets less tax, inside of pubs are often immaculate - with high quality furnishings.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

I leave you all to make your own judgement on this.

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 02:12 AM

A question for the legal minded. Can said King Rollo (we will asume he is a PRS members) or any of the unpaid participants in the music making (we will assume they are not members) - that has been prevented in these Sam Smiths pubs - make a case for the unlawful restriction of their freedom of expression?

Who would the claim be against?

The pub has a right to a choice to first allow/provide music. And to obtain or not to obtain the PRS/PPL etc licence. So perhaps not the pub.

But PRS/PPL etc are publicly giving the impression to all-and-sundry that no music at all - can now take place in these premises without this licence. So the right of freedom of expression of a non-PRS members playing their own non-published material is currently being prevented in these pubs - where as far as I can see - there are no grounds to prevent this freedom of expression.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Anglogeezer
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 03:46 PM

King Rollo's gig at NELLIE'S was cancelled, info given on his website - www.king-rollo.co.uk/news.html

regards Jake

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: ET
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:39 PM

Again interesting. A musician called King Rollo was being advertised as holding a guitar workshop in Nellies shortly and charging £10 for music tution. No doubt good value, but Nellies?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:08 AM

One of the strange things about Sam Smiths if anything is how little live music they had. I read this article a while back and tried to equate it with the pubs in my local area. The figure of almost 50% seems out of all proportion to our local area and the 20% having regular music is definitely out!

Sure you will have read this but it surprised me.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:52 AM

ET

Radio 4 are currently putting something together on this. I'm not sure when it will be aired but they are coming to record an interview with us in our local pub next wednesday. When I spoke to them a couple of weeks ago their intention was to involve Feargal Sharkey - Yorkshire Folk Arts (Norma Waterson was mentioned) - Government representative - Musicians Union - PRS - Sam Smiths (no comment) - Arts Council. I have no idea who will actually be involved. The reason they were in contact with our little known backwater was because of the Sam Smiths incident. The aim of the feature/news item/report/programme (I'm not sure which) is to look at the overall issue of licensing etc and to discuss whether the actions of Sam Smiths are the thin end of a wedge or the idiosyncratic actions of an individual.

So, yes, there may be and there are hopefully some weighty people involved that may get it some prominence.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:02 AM

One of things in this thread is to keep things in perspective. To the best of my knowledge (someone will tell me if I'm wrong I'm sure) Sam Smiths have stopped LIVE music being played in three pubs (perhaps four with the carols). They have currently stopped the other 200+ pubs having the potential to play music in the future, but the only effect has been on Nellies, the Plough and the pub that we used (Blacksmiths in Farlington).

I'm not totally sure that LIVE music was Sam Smiths original target. In fact I'm not sure that they had even thought about it. It was a side effect of the original target of stopping paying PRS fees for BACKGROUND music and TVs. I base this on the original conversation I had with the brewery back in early December when I queried whether we could continue to play live music and was told it was ok to do it and that this had been agreed up to C Black's level (I think he is MD?). It was only later after all the background music had gone that we were told to stop.

So we are quite a minority! For 98% of Sams pubs live music is not really an issue or they are not at all vociferous (or they are still allowed to do it!!)

I still think that is the one strength that we have. According to Humphrey Smith he believes it is fair to apply a blanket policy across his pubs - if you allow a TV in one or background music in one you need to apply it everywhere.

As live music affects so FEW pubs Sam Smiths COULD decide to allow it selectively without having to pay for all their pubs. Whether they will is another matter of course but it is a tack I believe is still worth following up. I don't think Sam Smiths are really involved in the live music debate at all, I think it is incidental to their PRS issue that they wish to keep their costs down.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: ET
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 05:52 AM

I think this is very well put. There are a huge number of musicians (voters) out there, under endless attack for no good reason. Theortically the Musicians Union ought to protect but most folkies are not members and receive no payments anyway. Is there anyway we can make our voice heard uniformly? Any ideas out there. Is Fergal Sharkeys musicians group too much in the hands of the DCMS?   When through mudcat, a petition against the Licensing Bill. as it then was, was organised over 100,000 signed up. Probably too far from an election to make a difference but?   If anyone ventured near me with election stuff I would cetainly express my views forcibly but voices in the wilderness are not given much regard these days.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Mally
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 04:07 AM

I think the essential thing we need to be fighting for here is the freedom to make music. That's the issue pure and simple, and it is currently under attack from various quarters as we're all aware.

One of the attacks is from the PRS. Despite it only being a private company providing a service to copyright holders, it appears to be determined to exploit its monopolistic power base and also seems to be increasingly intent on representing itself as though it has statutary powers althouth it does not (though no doubt it would like to!). As someone who works from home (as so many do nowadays), I have regularly recieved official looking letters from PRS stating that as it is presumed that I listen to CDs whilst working, I have to have a commercial PRS license. Whilst I can see the legal argument underlying this, it seems to me to be entirely disproportionate and an abuse of the PRS's aquired power. Taken to its logical conclusion, anyone listening to a CD on a business trip (car, train or whatever), or even a working boatie listening to a CD on deck, would need such a license.

The same sense of disproportion applies to folk sessions (I use the term loosely). I don't know where the quoted figure of £7 something is arrived at, but given the amount of copyright material performed, and also bearing in mind that often most of the those in the room are performers rather than audience, I'd be surprised if properly calculated figure even amounted to anything economically viable to collect. The PRS should also be taking the interests and views of its member into account. Does Ralph McTell really want a royalty every time someone sings Streets of London in a pub session? If so, I'd be disappointed, but the vast majority of copyright holders, who are after all musicians themselves, would surely value the freedom to express music at this purely social level above any financial reward they could derive from the PRS's draconian impositions.

I will not go on about this now. The essential thing I think is to somehow re-establish the right to make music as an essential human right. If not, it will be subject to further attack, e.g. from the insurance companies, whose policy restrictions are increasingly having more effect in many quarters than legislation. In the meantime, I would be very interested to know from any PRS members present what scope there is under their consitution for members to actually exert influence over the draconion policies they are seemingly bent on pursuing.

As a newcomer to the list (and still only a guest), I would not be so presumptuous as to start a new thread, but would be worth doing? Perhaps what is needed is to categorise and quantify all the things which are restricting the right to make music at a social level, then take a broader view rather than focussing on detail or getting sidetracked into dealing with symptoms (e.g. Sam Smiths) rather than causes.

Mally
Sandbach

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 04:01 AM

Three Sheds, that's treating the symptom not the disease

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: El Dano
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 07:56 PM

Why not dont walk into Nellies

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Cod Fiddler
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 01:35 PM

Perhaps its time for a demonstration. Imagine blocking London up with the UK's biggest ever session!

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: oombanjo
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 12:52 PM

Keep the Ideas coming. It may be that a seperete petition showing how many votes and in what areas the government would lose may be the way .Or it may require a single national petition such as the one the one already submitted but under a direct form of actionIe all who signed march ao whitehall??????

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: pavane
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 11:42 AM

Unfortunately, with this all being tagged onto the 'Open All Hours' legislation, it did not get a chance to be treated separately. This is a classic government tactic to avoid proper debate.

Many people have protested, written to MPs and received the standard form reply, and so on, but in the end, in our 'democracy', we don't have any power at all. The government will do what it wants, even if it takes the Parliament act to do it.

Labour's view of democracy seems to be 'Ban everything that the Majority don't agree with' (and tax everything else that THEY don't agree with). Minorities have no chance.

It will be long after the next election when people realise that there is no more music, and of course, the blame will go to local authorities, the PRS, and anyone else.

In 20 years time, maybe people will wonder why there are no longer any UK music stars of any kind, but there is no apparent short term remedy.

Wales will no longer be the land of song :
Will this affect the national Eisteddfod?
How about the Urdd Eisteddfod, preliminary rounds being held in public in schools etc?
Will they need an Event licence?
Will they need a PRS licence in case one of the Welsh songs is in copyright?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 11:34 AM

See also.

PRS and sessions

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 11:31 AM

Is there is any possibility that the right to freedom of expression, to impart (traditional/musical/artistic) ideas, might come under the scope of this?

There is more than a possibility - if it should come to this and it may well do. Especially given that Sam Smiths - without their PRS/PPL licence - are under (or given) the impression that the lack of this licence prevents any music from being made.

There is no (red herring) safety issue here. The only justification in the Act for preventing this music for the lack of this licence - from what I can see - is the 'rights of others'. Now that may be OK for the playing of music that PRE/PPL have some rightful claim over - but not for music like original and traditional non-copyright material that they are also preventing - without any rightful claim.

There may still be hope that PRS can come up with a solution - as it is not in their members interests (or anyone elses) that music is prevented anywhere. The other answer is that our Government negociate and pay PRS their fee - to enable sessions to take place anywhere.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Guest - Mally
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 10:29 AM

Still digesting all of this, and as someone who believes in the right to make music as a basic human expression, all this stuff makes my blood boil. What have we come to?

Does anyone know if the freedom to express oneself musically/artistically/traditionally comes within the scope of the European Convention on Human Rights, or whether this has ever been tested? Article 10 says the following:

QUOTE

Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. this right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

UNQUOTE

Is there is any possibility that the right to freedom of expression, to impart (traditional/musical/artistic) ideas, might come under the scope of this?

Sorry if this is a red herring, or if it has been discussed and dismissed elsewhere, but like Cod Fiddler, I reckon that the issues here go far deeper than examining the small print of the legislation and PRS rules. Once you get bogged down in discussing the detail you're missing the wider picture.

Mally
Sandbach

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Cod Fiddler
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:56 AM

I have to say that I agree with Oombanjo. It seems to me that civil liberties are constantly being erroded by poorly thought out and often unnecessary legislation in all walks of life. I still think a petition might do some good.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: oombanjo
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 05:26 PM

Sorry, the above was me oombanjo I forgot to log in.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 04:14 PM

Sorry about this but I have come to the conclusion that, those in control of bringing this act into being had little, or no thought of any type of social issues. Think about all the issues that we have debated, especially the promotion, and continuance, of our Folk heritage. As an ex miner and a solid labour voter since I came of age I learned one lesson through those early days, when you stick your head in the sand,   you get shafted and do'nt know anything about it till its happened. And here we are. My hope in posting this type of thread, is to get away from the continuing debate and to bring the chickens home to roost, with action that will demand a response,if in doing this we pick up support from our councillors let them show it through their actions, and lobby their elected Mps.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 05:33 AM

Perhaps the MP's and councillors views on this issue can be obtained first? If they do not agree with the party line - they can then tell you what action they are going to take to change it. If they do support the party line - perhaps it is fair that their fate is decided along with the eventual fate of this party line?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 05:04 AM

"and all labour voters informed their local labour councillors that their support/vote was being withdrawn."

Much as I support the cause, being one of the players affected by Sam Smith's ban, I think that this would be an extreme reaction, even if it were actually feasible to do. It could just be that labour councillors are the more helpful on other issues such as social services, local transport provision, education and so on. Are we saying that playing music is MORE important than those things and we should withdraw our support from the coucillors because of their party's contrary position on that? I don't think so, let's get some perspective.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: oombanjo
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 01:33 PM

Back to where we started. Which ever way you throw this in the mixing bowl, the government will come out of it taking more money out of our pockets, either through direct tax or indirectly through increased beer prices. It is time that the initiators of the problem were taken to task, and all labour voters informed their local labour councillors that their support/vote was being withdrawn. It's possible that a separate thread could be set up to register that we are prepared to follow our conviction

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 05:32 PM

This from Pete Coe on uk.music.folk. Which is bad new but does at least make it clear what the PRS position is towards sessions.

I had a long conversation with Barry Lane, PRS Tariff Development Dept. about sessions. It seems I was given wrong information a week or so ago from someone else in his dept. Sessions are liable after all. For numbers attending up to 100 in licensed, commercial premises the charge would be £7.27 per session, whatever the music played.

It's the premises that are liable. As a member of PRS myself, I don't like this anymore than most of you. Believe me, I made all the relevant points...
1.No admission charge.
2.No payment made to musicians by landlord/management.
3.Session organised by the musicians themselves, for their own musical
benefit, not as part of a commercial performance for an 'audience'.
4.Most music played being non-copyright.
5.Very few participants being members of PRS.

Barry made the point that it's PRS's job to earn money for it's members from all commercial premises, whether the music is live or recorded & that this music is of commercial benefit to the 'management'. So the management should pay up.

I pointed out that in some cases the management (e.g. Sam Smith's)
wouldn't pay up & that either the musicians would end up 'paying to
play', as well as for their beer or that the sessions would shut down.
Thus, many musicians, who learned tunes/songs in sessions , then went on to record their arrangements, registering them with PRS & earning money for both parties would lose out on this source of material & PRS losing out on grassroots potential. I added that this was what sessions are & they're not what PRS want them to be.

I haven't given up on this yet. There's a few options possible. These
could include...
1. Every session filling in PRS forms & swamping them with paperwork.
2. Nominating one regular member & joining PRS & fill in PRS forms
saying that all traditional arranged material is copyright to that
person who then, eventually gets paid most of it back to PRS.
3. Or register all trad. arr. material to EFDSS or a charity (they'd
have to be PRS members)
4. Keep that session moving.
5. It's a 'rehearsal'.

In the meantime, the sessions I go to locally will remain free of PRS & I'll deal with them if the landlord is asked. If you want to contact PRS [e-mail]

He seems a decent bloke, so no abuse needed, informed facts & opinions
only.

--
Pete Coe : http://www.backshift.demon.co.uk/petehome.htm
http://www.ryburn3step.org.uk

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 09:01 AM

NickM I have emailed you - by all means mail me back or ring me at home later.

Raggy - I received a phone call from PRS a couple of days ago and they told me I would be expecting a further reply soon. The chap who I originally emailed is changing his job and it has been passed to a colleague who should be in touch with me. I'll let you know what is said.

One of the things we did ask was whether we could be licensed as a group of individuals/club independent of the premise. It seemed to offer a way out for all of us without anyone backing down from their position. There was a comment in the message I received that they were at least considering whether this could be possible. Opens up interesting possibilities at least not least in being able to try and further clarify Mr Smith's true reasons.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:59 AM

NickM

There is a related thread entitled "have Sam Smiths banned ALL music" which was started by Nick from Farlington at the end of November, the thread was the precusor of this. It would indicate that the decision of Humphrey Smith to remove means of entertainment, TV Radio, Juke boxes and live sessions was first made known at this time.
Several people, myself included have written to him, I to date have not had a response. According to various bits of "gossip" he does not seem to welcome any intrusion (as he see's it)into the running of the estate.
It would also seem that his decision was made on financial grounds with regard to the purchase of the various licences required. I have emailed the Performing Rights Society (PRS) for clarification of wether sessions which do not make a door charge or the performers received payment are required to have a licence. I have been met by a deafening silence. If and when I receive a response I will forward it to one and all

Raggy

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,NickM
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:32 AM

Hi, I'm trying to get a bit of background on this story, I want to create a page about it on the BBC North Yorkshire website (www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire) as we have recieved an email to our inbox about the decision of the brewery to stop live music and remove TVs and juke boxes.

If any of you have the time, I'd really appreciate a run down of events, just like when the change of policy took effect and whether there has been any communication from Sam Smiths.

The email address is [e-mail]
. I'm Nick and am keen to get a page published about this, one which people will be able to add their own comments.

I have contacted the brewery but they have declined to comment.

Thanks,

Nick