What constitutes traditional folk music?

Subject: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: themutineer
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:59 PM

Good day folks,

I run a traditional folk/blues trio in Maine called The Mutineers (www.themutineers.com). Lately, I've been noticing a crack down on establishments that host acts who play "covers." Nobody seems to understand that the music we play are songs that have been passed down through the ages and "arranged" by all who have sung them. We are now recording a record ( of all traditional song ), but I am worried that we still may be in violation of someone's rules. How can I be sure?

Subject: RE: Origins: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:05 PM

you do research.... enter the terms "traditional music" and related stuff in the search box at upper left and innundated with 8 years of discussion of the topic here at Mudcat....

and you enter the names of songs you want to record, and see if they return hits about age, authorship...etc....

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:08 PM

(as one of the resident 'purist snobs' *grin*...I have had MY say on the subject many times...so my name in a search box WITH the other terms will get you WAY too much...)

Subject: RE: Origins: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: MMario
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:15 PM

How can you be sure? Painstaking research on each song you plan to record to determine if it is indeed traditional and public domain. And that the ARRANGEMENT you are using is likewise. If you can document that then there is no problem.

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:17 PM

As per Mario. Arrangements can be and are copyrighted. Careful for that. You'll need to do a search to see if the songs you wish to do are common ground or the property of an individual or company.

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:27 PM

Is the "crackdown" an effort to collect royalties? If so, you shouldn't have a problem with any songs for which no one has a valid claim. I wouldn't think you'd get any static until you are heard performiong a song that indeed belongs to somebody.

You would, of course, have to do research on every individual number in your repertoire -- and you might learn that many songs that a reasonable person would expect to be in the public domain *are* claimed by various persons, including rich and famous individuals who shouldn't really need your money (e.g., Bob Dylan). In most of these cases, the copyright is on the "arrangement," not the words and music per se, but it may be difficult to substantiate your claim that your arrangement is indeed original and not copped from a well-known recording.

Even though it might be difficult or impossible to *prove* that you are in violation, I can see that you might have problems with nervous bar owners who want to avoid any possibility of dealing with a challenge to your right to perform your repertoire. Good luck!

As a friend and fan of working musicians, I suppose I should be glad that someone is enforcing copyright/royalty payment to deserving songwriters who have so often been overlooked.

On the other hand, I am also sympathetic to players in your position, and as a fan/listener, I really hope this is *not* a coming trend -- I can hardly imagine my live-music listening being limited to all-"originals" sets. There are plenty of groups and individuals who can play and sing very nicely, but who cannot regularly compose memorable songs. There are plenty of great songs out there that should be regularly performed and occasionally reinterpreted; that's the whole point of having a "tradition"!

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 03:22 PM

Well as I remember, traditional comes from the Latin word traditio - meaning I hand over.

Unfortunately if your parents handed over to you a love of rock n roll, George Formby and frank Sinatra - it doesn't really cut much ice amongst traditional music fans. Your parents didn't traditio you the right stuff.

a rough translation would seem to be nowadays "whatever it is that makes you feel superior to pop music fans" - none of whom dance jigs!

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 04:07 PM

If nobody understands, tell them!

The "all originals" rule is often a way for club owners to provide live entertainment without having to pay for a performance lisense, which grants public performance rights, and which then pays composers/lyricists for the use of their songs--though no one ever thinks about this, really, the performers who write their own material are getting cheated, because, though their songs are being publically performed, they receive no royalties--in some cases, it is also a hedge against paying union scale to performers--

In some circumstances, though, it is a good thing--like most other things in the business side of music, you have to make your own decision about whether it is good or bad for you, and move ahead--

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: themutineer
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 04:49 PM

Thanks folks - good comments, good points all!!

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:13 PM

Glad you care enough to ask.

Good luck in your musical endeavors.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 08:10 AM

Excuse my rudeness, but are people STILL asking this bloody awful question ?

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 08:17 AM

No

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: themutineer
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 08:37 AM

My question had more to do with what passes out on the live music circuit where the licencing agencies are starting to crack down. Also, when recording a record I was a little unclear on the "rules." I've been playing and studying the music for a long time, but the recording and public "rules" is what I was a little unsure of. As for the "bloody" question, it seems to me far easier to just not click on the link if you are so disgusted. But the good news is: for every GUEST we have fine, helpful people like Charley Noble, Brucie and PoppaGator.

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: Dreaded Thumbpick
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 09:10 AM

I'm sure there are people who know more about this than I do but that doesn't stop me from putting in my two cents.

Writing that is published,by virtue of that process, is automatically copyrighted. I think the same is true if a song is recorded and released; the arrangement is automatically copyrighted. Wasn't that the case with Simon & Garfunkel's "Scarborough Fair"? and The Kingston Trio's "Tom Dooley"? I believe they both wound up in court and had to pay royalties to Martin Carthy and Frank Profitt respectively.

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 09:58 AM

Everyone is entitled to express their opinion. What is not acceptable is a rude and inflammatory tone when expressing such opinions - especially when the GUEST in question has acknowledged their own rudeness, and clearly not even read the thread!!

I must admit I was a tad annoyed when I read the thread subject, but when I clicked and read it properly I discovered that it was essentially a new enquiry on a very 'sensitive' matter, which most people seemed to have respected and responded to in an helpful manner...

In the folk world there is a tendency for people to try to make money out of 'Public Domain' material by copyrighting their 'arrangement'. Whether their argument would subsequently stand up in a court of law depends, I think, largely on whether that 'arrangement' has added something to the song/tune other than simply playing the tune and chords...!

The difficulty, say, with a Copper Family or Watersons vocal harmony (for example) constituting an 'arrangement' is that such singing has been handed down over many decades and no one can precisely pinpoint when it became an arrangement for copyright purposes other than at the time when a recording was made. However, they have a distinctive sound which sets them apart, and this could well provide the basis for argument.

Certainly, Carthy's arrangement of 'Scarborough Fair' is a one-off, and Paul Simon's guitar arrangement, whilst not being the same, clearly owes a lot to Carthy's. Simon also changed the tune a little to make it more 'commercial', but it is clear where his ideas came from - after all, at the time he was touring British folk clubs (Leigh Folk Club paid 12 shillings and sixpence for him to appear!), and 'Homeward Bound' was written whilst sitting on Widnes railway station!

It's certainly a bit of a minefield to say the least, and I echo the opinions of all above who suggest that research is essential. Sadly, it would still be possible to fall foul inadvertently - most of us know the story of the late George Harrison's 'My Sweet Lord' which cost him a packet when the Chiffons managed to 'prove' he had plagiarised their chord structure from 'He's So Fine'... sorry, but I still believe it was nothing more than a clever lawyer... though legally I can't say that!!

Good luck, mate!

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 10:26 AM

It was my understanding that the licensing agencies were cracking down on live music venues because 100% of the fees they collect belong to the agency. The idea of paying royalties to writers is not what motivates the collection of fees from live performances.    It has always seems a little strange that the heart of bluegrass, oldtime, and "folk" music is in live performances yet the writers draw no revenue from them, only licensing agencies. Have things changed or was I misinformed?

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: GUEST,Mr Red with added pedantry
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 10:43 AM

Well, I think it would not be traditional if we didn't question it's provenance by asking:

yes but is it traditional?

eg - how old is the bodhran? - and can you prove it? - see mudcat thread on the age of the Bodhran and a myriad questions like is "Molly Malone" really Scottish and Victorian? (and there is a thread on that too, and NO I won't tell you the answer)

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 10:46 AM

well its traditional in our house

Subject: RE: What constitutes traditional folk music?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 10:56 AM

Mr. Red said, in part:

Well, I think it would not be traditional if we didn't question it's provenance by asking:

yes but is it traditional?

I don't understand. Do you mean that questioning whether a song is traditional makes it traditional? That's what your words would mean, and it doesn't make any sense to me.

Dave Oesterreich