BS: A moral question.

Subject: BS: A moral question.
From: Raptor
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:28 PM

A biologist friend and I are going out to find Great Grey, Boreal, and Northern Hawk Owls this weekend. There is an uncommon erruption in the Cenrtal Ontario region due to a shortage in the lemming population. These owls move farther south to find food.(It happens every 7-10 years) My friend suggested that we buy "feeder Mice" to bring with us to throw to any Owls we find to feed them and so we can better photograph them.

How do you feel about this?
Is it wrong to feed live prey to a wild animal?

All advice will be considered and apprieciated!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:33 PM

Unless you know of a well-respected retirement home for mice, they're likely to meet a similarly unpleasant fate in some other way. The real question is, do they get experimented on, fed to snakes, or other animals? I'm sure that the owls would appreciate the snack. I doubt that it's a moral issue with them.

And you're a raptor?

Hearty eating...

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:38 PM

Are these mice personally known to you? If not, they may be terrorist mice, and you should have no qualms about treating them like hamburger.


A

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:49 PM

I knew a lady who would not kill bug or mice, due to her vague 'Buddhist' beliefs, but she WOULD toss them out in the snow, saying "what God does with them after they are out of my house in none of my business".

You can rationalize anything...the owls will eat SOME mice anyway...what difference does it make whether you make it easier for them?

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:59 PM

NEVER feed a wild animal. People around here, southern New Brunswick, Canada, started feeding wild ducks in a local pond a few years ago. The ducks stayed into the winter for the grub. Guess what ? Dead ducks.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Pauline L
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 03:00 PM

This reminds me of the question of whether or not to feed squirrels in your backyard. You may foster the creation of a population of dependent welfare squirrels. Are you going to upset the balance of nature by feeding mice to the birds far from their usual home? Of course, if it's only a few mice and a few birds, it probably won't matter much, and wildlife photography is a good cause, too.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 03:13 PM

I have to admit I'm smiling at this image. Will you wait for an owl then throw out one mouse, or a whole boxful? Won't the birds be a bit leery about swooping down on a mouse just after you've winged it into the air? (they're kinda scared of humans). Or will you have the mouse tethered to a little pole out in the open while you shoot from a blind? Just kidding ;o)

Out here on the coast (Vancouver Island) I've had success at getting Bald Eagles to come down for herring chucked up in the air. I wasn't taking pictures though. The problem I encountered was in keeping the mad seagulls away once they figured out there was free food available. Good luck with it, Raptor. Let us know how you get on. I'd be interested to see the photos, too.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 04:34 PM

Are you talking about using captured wild mice? Or specially raised/bought for the purpose?   

I'm not sure it makes a difference to the ethics involved, either way, but somehow the wild mouse idea seems more comfortable to me. But you need to catch them in sufficient quantity for your purpose.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: ranger1
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 04:54 PM

Ok, here is where the park ranger weighs in: as long as the mice are healthy and this isn't going to be a regular thing, it's probably going to be alright. Feeder mice are a renewable resource, being bred for, well, eating (not by people, sillies!). In my mind the moral issue is less about the mice and more about the owls. The one thing you don't want to do is cause them to become dependant on humans for food. The other thing you may want to check on is if there are any laws or environmental regulations that prohibit feeding of wildlife. Something that works better than bait, though is mimicing their calls. I had a friend in college that worked for several years doing owl censuses for the US Forest Service. That was one of the methods that she and her research partner employed. The other was a dead mouse tied to a stick and waved around. She said that both methods worked pretty well.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 04:56 PM

Not so much a matter of morals, maybe, but it all sounds rather sick to me.

If you're taking nature photographs they ought to be nature photographs.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 04:58 PM

So there is already an irregularity in the cycle (lemming shortage), but you say this happens regularly, so is probably not an irregularity at all, just part of a larger cycle.
Having said that, a few mice for a few photos won't develop a dependancy in the owls, so no harm done.

But I think the moral question you're asking is whether or not you should be sacrificing living creatures for the sake of a photo. Humans have a funny attitude to life and death, don't they? On the one hand we are taught that all life is sacred, and on the other we see life wasted everywhere constantly, by man, nature, and apparently by God Himself. It would seem that there is nothing more expendable than life.
I'd say if you feel uncomfortable throwing a mouse, don't, but if you do, then throw it.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: *Laura*
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 05:13 PM

It depends how much you value the mouse's life. (ok the corners of my mouth may be twitching a little as I say this hehe)...
some people would probably say if you wouldn't be happy with chucking a bit of dead human out for the owls then don't do it with mice.
I probably wouldn't be among them to be honest.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 05:42 PM

You may have problems getting live prey unless you've raised it yourself. Here in the UK there are strict rules governing the procreation and sale of 'pinkies' (baby mice killed "humanely" when a few hours old) and chicks (male chicks, by-product of the egg industry) for feeding pets like snakes, lizards and other raptors. It would be impossible to get living prey for any purpose.

I would suggest, a few healthy mice, a few owls, not a problem. It only becomes a problem if you do it for a week or more and then suddenly stop. Just a few would be mimicking the dispersal of a nest of young. My cats have had lucky streaks where in one afternoon, they've brought in several young mice, just leaving the nest for the first (and last) time.


LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 06:32 PM

"I'd say if you feel uncomfortable throwing a mouse, don't, but if you do, then throw it. "

I'd have thought that, if anything, it should be the other way round. If you actually enjoy doing stuff like that, you're in trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:03 PM

Ask the mice. If they don't object then you choose!
Best wishes

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: GUEST,mickey
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:48 PM

eeek..squeek!

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:55 PM

"...pets like snakes, lizards and other raptors." (Liz the Squeak)

Make you think twice, Raptor?

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 08:13 PM

Wildlife photographers lure in animals regularly, and set up shots with all sorts of blinds and gimmicks. You won't be the first. By all means used the raised mice. If you catch wild mice to use to lure owls, you're liable to expose yourself to diseases carried by the wild mice, and in the event of a bite, could face a real problem. The owls won't become dependent on humans based upon snacking on a few mouse offerings.

Though it might sound unfair, I think you'd do better to tie a string to the mice and leave them in a clearing. Otherwise you'll be too close to the mice to interest the owl, or the domestic mice will escape into the wild. (Sounds a bit like King Kong, doesn't it? Be kind to the Faye Wray mouse as you set up the shot!)

I watched an owl in the snag over the creek in my back yard last week. A red squirrel on the dead tree did a quick double-take and course reversal when it reached the top and saw the owl. The owl paid no attention to that squirrel, but a few minutes later he cocked his head and dropped quickly to the ground in the bushes behind my fence. I presume that someone became lunch.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 08:14 PM

Yeah, I've had snakes off and on purdy much all my life but always wished they would eat carrots, or dry cat food...

Makes ya' feel bad...

But I don't have snakes these days and I think it's because of having to feed live mice to them...

I'd say that if it makes you feel bad, don't do it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 09:47 PM

The general practice of baiting wild critters for study and conservation is pretty well accepted. Baiting for "harvest" is prohibited in many places.

My main concern would be whether the "bait" is something established in the area where it is used, or might present the possibility of "contamination" of similar/competing populations. There are many kinds of mice, just as an example, and moving a new kind of mouse into a niche ecology where it hasn't existed can have unpredictable, sometimes bizarre, results. Even a different "sub-species" of the kind already present can have an effect.

People who fish are cautioned to buy their bait in the local area where they intend to fish, and to dispose of it before going to another unconnected area. Quite a number of good fishing spots are periodically "contaminated" by foreign species brought in by people who ignore this rule.

A sort of "classic case" has been reported recently, I believe by Smithsonian magazine, but it may have been American Scientist:

Step 1: a foreign thistle accidentally introduced, mainly in western US and Canada, competes with native grasses and has destroyed large areas of grazing land. (NOTE: deer and elk graze too - not just cattle.)

Step 2: a parasitic worm was found that can kill the thistle, and was deliberately introduced for control purposes.

Step 3: a foreign "mouse" that likes the worm was accidentally introduced, or (remotely possible) may have migrated naturally, and has virtually terminated the thistle control project's earlier success by eating the larvae before they can attack the thistle.

Step 4: the "mouse explosion" due to the unnaturally rich source of thistle-eating-larva has produced local epidemics, and expectation of more widespread incidence soon to come, of mouse-born disease in humans in areas where the disease did not previously occur.

The use of attractants for photo and study is well accepted. Do be aware that any live bait brought from outside the area can have significant impact on a local ecology if any escaped bait survives.

John

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 10:10 PM

You've opened a can of worms here Raptor.

Does a mouse count? Does an ant count? How far should we bend to accomodate alleged lesser life forms? Are they lesser?

Is the lemming shortage due to human degradation of their habitat? If so, you could justify playing God by arguing that the damage is already done, but then you still have to take the mouse in your hand and throw it.

Your call.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 12:16 AM

Sounds like John votes "no," in so many words. As long as you recognize the heavy rhetoric that goes with that answer, you can get past the guilt trip that it aims to generate.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 01:35 AM

Depends on the role you are playing from, I would guess -- food-chain dominator or spiritual Co-worker...very different starting points yield different conclusions, no???


A

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 01:47 AM

Co-workers at very different pay grades!

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 03:25 AM

SRS -

The vote is actually "yes" - but with caution. As long as one uses what's in the system in which the baiting is done, I'm with the live-bait fishers. Catch the bait from the pond where you intend to fish, or get your bait from a local supplier - who can tell you that it's compatible with the local fauna.

Going to a pet shop and getting "mice" (generic and of unknown kind) stocked for feeding exotic pets, or even taking the "mouse" you caught in your kitchen into the woods, where there is any possibility of release and survival of the "bait," has the potential for making unforseen changes in existing food chain(s). Caution is advised, if you care about the ecosystem.

Gettin appropriate "warm-blooded" bait may be difficult for a casual trip.

It should also be noted that "baiting" is much less effective than most people presume, at least for short term use. To be effective, bait must be placed over a long enough term to attract the target species to the area and to make them accustomed to finding food there. Only then can the "strategically placed" bait be expected to bring individuals to that "best photo spot." The exception is that if you can easily catch suitable bait animals near where you want to take your shot the target species may already expect to find food of that kind there.

For a casual trip, planning where to go and knowing where the birds are will be more likely to produce good experiences than the vague expectation that you will be able to "throw some meat out" and get great pictures. Most critters have a life, so you need to know where they hunt, where the rest, where they sleep and when they change those jobs and move between them. That's why the people who do this sort of stuff regularly form clubs to talk about it, share experiences, write bylaws, have meetings, charge dues, make websites, and sell maps. (etc.).(etc.).(etc.).(etc.).

John

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: MBSLynne
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 07:19 AM

Well I wouldn't do it myself, but that's just because I have this very inconvenient tendency to empathise with just about every living thing and as the poor little mouse flew through the air, I'd be feeling all (and probably more) of the fear etc. However, as long as you don't feel like that I can't actually see any moral or other problems generally.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 01:05 PM

John in Kansas, I was responding to the loaded answer posted by Guest John O'Lennaine. Your answer was mostly an expansion what I'd already posted earlier, so it was clear.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: coldjam
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 01:42 PM

JohninKansas' comment made me think of the song lyrics to "The People are Scratching". They are currently trying to eradicate Urasian Milfoil in a large lake near here by introducing a fungus. And many of our homes are plagued by the Asian lady bugs they brought in for something or other.We're just sooo smart aren't we?

I agree with the others who say a few mice- a few photos won't disrupt the balance, there seems to be some grace built into the system. However, after you tie your mousey Faye Wray, you might just want to forego the jungle drums for the owls sake:)

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: *Laura*
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 02:20 PM

Haven't you read Hitch-hiker? Mice are the single most important creature on this planet!

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 02:39 PM

Also the dinosaur, giant python, and teredactyl. . . (we saw the movie the other day).

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 07:14 PM

SRS -
I wasn't trying to generate feelings of guilt, although re-reading my post I can see why you might think I was.

It's a loaded subject. (Or a can of worms?)
I just called it as I saw it.

John

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 07:23 PM

It's neither right nor wrong to feed mice to owls, Raptor. It's not a moral question, it just IS. Make up your own mind about it, according to your own best judgement.

And think of all the times you have willingly eaten meat...

It's an option.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Raptor
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 08:29 PM

Hey,
13 Great Gray Owls And The nearest one was 7 Feet from my Nikons!

Great Greys are not that Skittish and we aproached many of them.

The best part of the day was that my Friend brought his 12 year old son and he was beaming! He said that it was the most amazing experience he's ever had! He's becoming quite a naturalist as he knows every Herptile in North America and many birds,as well as trees and plants!

We only used one mouse. We also had three Northern Shrikes and several other good siteings.

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 09:07 PM

So we've been turning ourselves inside out all weekend while you were off doing just whatever you please, with or without our approval?

Go straight up to bed. No desert for you tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Raptor
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 09:36 PM

I tried to log on this AM before I left but couldn't

Actually I took the advice.

Raptor

PLEASSSSEE can I have desert?

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 11:16 PM

Tell us what happened with the mouse. Did it get staked out like a target, or tossed into a clearing, or what?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 11:34 PM

So, Mickey took the looooooooooooooooooooooooooong trip, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Raptor
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 12:24 PM

We walked out to a field where one of the owls were. We walked into the field about 300 feet from the tree the owl was perched in watching us. We placed the mouse on the surface of the snow and steped back 7 feet(I know this cus the focusing ring on the nikon reads in feet) and as quick as we could focas the owl swooped down on Suzzane(named after one of my Ex's) and looked up at us. The owl took the mouse and flew to the nearest tree and devowered the mouse. I ran up to the tree and photographed the meal.

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM

Well I hope the photos were worth all the heartsearching!

Do we get to see any?

Limpit's Saturday school had a guest before Christmas, they invited a nearby bird sanctuary to bring in some raptors. The kids were all eager to see the vulture (OK, technically not a raptor, but a scavenger) but as soon as it got brought in, shivering in anticipppppp ation, they wanted it out again... couldn't stand the smell! When the 'keeper' let them fly, everyone ducked their heads down... me, being me, kept still... it's something to know that a bird has, in the space of about 3 seconds, judged, computed, launched and executed a perfect flightpath to just gently brush your hair with its wingtips....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 01:16 PM

That's pretty amazing, Raptor. I hope the shots turn out.

Liz, we have vultures in the woods near us. A few weeks ago I spotted a dead red squirrel in the road and made a mental note to take a shovel out to pick it up and place it in the woods. But before I got over to collect it one of the vultures decided a meal al roadway was what he desired. Passing cars disturbed him several times, but he kept coming back.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Pauline L
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 04:11 PM

Raptor, that's great! You must have seen some birds you'd almost never see in your area, and you got photographs, too! I find it interesting that the birds didn't mind being close to you or vice versa. Photographing birds, in general, is not easy. They move too quickly and then settle down too far away. Please, please post the photos.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 04:20 PM

Raptor, would you mind if a friend of mine provided a very small dog for your next owl feeding? It's a pomeranian, and it's a vicious, offensive little beast that hates everyone on principle. Nobody would mourn its passing.

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 04:48 PM

OWL

I saw the best mice of my generation......

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Raptor
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 06:51 PM

I will get Little Hawk to help me post the photos as he knows how and I haven't a clue(my Computer is a comadore 64).

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 08:03 PM

I would suggest merely inviting them over to dinner---get some mousetraps---say grace and have a feast with your feathered friends.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: A moral question.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 03:40 PM

A Comodore 64 is about as old as a computer can be. Does it really still work? Maybe we should all chip in and help Raptor upgrade to an 8088.

SRS