BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'

Subject: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:04 PM

In light of recent debates here over whether or not the word 'fascist' is an appropriate label to slap on the US, I found this article about RFK Jr. to be interesting.

Comments?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:30 PM

Here is an excerpt from the article to hopefully get us rolling here:

""While communism is the control of business by government, fascism is the control of government by business," he writes. "My American Heritage Dictionary defines fascism as 'a system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership together with belligerent nationalism.' Sound familiar?"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:09 PM

Considering that I posted THIS on another thread last Thursday, it looks like RFK Jr. and I are pretty much on the same page.

I would say that the United States is not necessarily a fascist country yet, but once the momentum in that direction gets started, it's damned hard to stop unless people become aware. And therein lies the problem. People get very upset when this trend is pointed out and often respond with an angry "It can't happen here!" Classic head in the sand, butt in the air.

I will be watching the career of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. with great interest. Thank you for posting that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:26 PM

Excerpt:

"While communism is the control of business by government, fascism is the control of government by business," he writes. "My American Heritage Dictionary defines fascism as 'a system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership together with belligerent nationalism.' Sound familiar?"

He quotes Hitler's propaganda chief Herman Goerring: "It is always simply a matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

Kennedy then adds: "The White House has clearly grasped the lesson."

Kennedy also quotes Benito Mussolini's insight that "fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:36 PM

Good on RFK, Jr...

We need more of folks like him...

I liked his dad, too, and was working in his campaign in Virginia when he was taken out by the right wingers... '68 was a big year for Boss Hog and Thugs in that they took out both Kennedy and King...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:40 PM

I don't know how effective RFK Jr. can be as an elected politician in this political climate, unless he runs as an independent. He himself said in this article:

"But he did call President Bush "the most corrupt and immoral President that we have had in American history."

Not that he was enamored with Senator John Kerry.

Early in the campaign, Kennedy endorsed Senator John Kerry for President, but last month he expressed disappointment in Kerry's campaign and in the Democratic Party.

"The Republicans are 95 percent corrupt and the Democrats are 75 percent corrupt," Kennedy. "They are accepting money from the same corporations. And of course, that is going to corrupt you."

So if he believes both main parties are that corrupt, how can he say that and then turn around and run as a Democrat?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:50 PM

If he decides to run for office, he will probably attempt to clean up the Democratic party. Wouldn't that be refreshing??!!! The U.S.A. (maybe the world) would welcome a Kennedy and especially a forthright Kennedy.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:56 PM

It isn't possible for someone to simultaneously run for a high public office and clean up the national party.

Besides, the Democratic party is long past being redeemable. It is too corrupt. If people can't see that after the last 15 years under the Clinton/Gore/McAuliffe/Daschle/Pelosi/Democratic Leadership Council strategy of corrupting from within, then they don't want to see it, because it's easier to just keep voting Democrat than it is to do the hard work of convincing one's fellow Americans that the time has come for a progressive left political movement to move into the mainstream and seize the day.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:00 PM

I'd rather he didn't run for public office, actually, and see him move into the spotlight as an activist and critic. I think he would be much more effective there. He definitely has inherited his father's intelligence. Let us hope he hasn't inherited the Camelot political myth gene.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:07 PM

If he ever gets close to getting elected he'll be shot, just like his father... Guy like him scare the heck outta Boss Hog...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:10 PM

Because they have money, power, and prestige and nothing to lose by being openly critical of the status quo.

That does make them dangerous.

However, I will reserve judgment on RFK. God knows, his political family is knee deep in political corruption, regardless of how successful he has been as an environmental advocate for the Hudson River.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 03:37 PM

Unfortunately RFK Jr. is right. Elections are bought by corporate interests. Condign power is used to quell dissent in demonstrations. Innocent people are jailed without the writ of Habeus Corpus in Guantanamo, Diego Garcia for interminable periods at the whim of the State Department. There is a growing movement of Right-wing theo-fascists who attempt to take control of the government through intimidation and pseudo-morality. Iraq might be Bush's "sudatenland". Bush has stated humorously, "I think dictatorship is a good idea, as long as I'm the dictator".
Be wary of what people say in jest.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: MarkS
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:55 PM

Bobert
Could you elaborate on RFK being taken out by right wingers? I am unaware of Sirhan Sirhan having right wing connections, but hey, I am unaware of lots of things.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:07 PM

Kennedy seems much like a young Nader. I like that. Good article you posted, GUEST. Thanks.

I agree that Kennedy would be an attractive target if he looked like he might win a presidential election. I don't know that he would be done in by right or left-leaning folks, but BIG money--the Boss Hog spoken of by Bobert, would sure have a hard time keeping their fingers off the trigger. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:58 PM

Hey, if I had the goods on Boss Hog, I'd sure 'nuff offer 'um up but consider this: The two most promising and important leaders of the progressive/liberal movement in America in 1968 were both gunned down within months of each other by folks who had no apparent motives...

You do the math.

Lets put it this way. If George Bush and Dick Cheney were gunned down by folks who had no apparent motives with a couple months of each other, I'm sure there would be lots of folks suspicious of the progressives.

Now, throw in the assasination of John Kennedy and Malcolm X, again by folks who didn't have clear cut motives and all in the 60's, a decade that was very threatening to Boss Hog's little ball game and, though the tracks were covered well, it don't take the Wes Ginny Slide Rule to tell ya' which way the wind blows...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM

GUEST--Are you our persistant Naderite/Progressive ? Wish you'd pick a name so we wouldn't confuse you with the other GUESTS..

The government is, more and more, in the hands of corporate special interests.

For me, the clearest example is that if a kid downloads "illegal" MP3 files, his parents can be assessed "damages" of up to $125,000 per file--100 songs could cost $12,500,000--however, if that same kid was disabled or killed by medical malpractice, the parents are limited to $250,000 in damages--

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 02:58 PM

I like the article quite a bit as well. I just might be ready to sacrifice my vote on yet another candidate that can't possibly win. So I hope he has a run for the presidency in his plans. Tired as I am of wasting my vote on candidates that have the elections stolen from them, I guess it's time to, as Dave Van Ronk said, "Abandon my ideals, and do what's right."--------It sort of feels like I've moved back to Chicago what with elections being ripped off so blantantly now. In the old days, we Chicagoans, at least, got $5.00 from the old Daly machine for giving them our vote. That's what the Red Cross used to pay for a pint of blood in the 1950s.

Still, it will be sad to see the schism/factionalism in the USA develop into a situation that makes this brush fire in Iraq look like the glowing tip of a cigarette at midnight.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 03:22 PM

RFK Jr., by virtue of his name alone, it probably the most credible person who could possibly present this case to the public today.

"Nobodies" like me and like Don and Amos and Bobert (just to pick the first three names to post here) have been saying the same thing over and over for years to little or no effect, while "somebodies" who might share the same viewpoint (e.g., Demo politicians) have been scared to damage their "electability" by speaking truth to power.

It's about time someone with the clout to make himself heard started voicing some of these obvious but unspeakable ("verboten") facts.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Teresa
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 03:44 PM

RFK would be a great spokesperson/leader for the progressives. If he could run for president and still remain true to his convictions, that would be nothing short of a miracle. however, I'd be completely content with his voice being raised to speak his mind.

I'm losing faith in this thing called democracy, so any way we can get our voices heard will work for me. Desperate times will require desperate measures.

Personally, I will never vote for a republicrat again.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 05:35 PM

RFK, Jr. has been a leader of environmental causes for years. I'm a bit surprised so many of you appear never to have heard of him. He is almost single-handidly given credit for cleaning up the Hudson River. He is an excellent speaker and as many of you have suggested, would make an attractive candidate for the Republian dontender to beat in 2008. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 06:47 PM

RFK Jr. did not single-handedly clean up the Hudson. He had lots of help from Pete Seeger.

He is however as Doug says, a intelligent and thoughtful speaker. He is also a wonderful environmental advocate as well as calling it exactly right about corporatocracy and it's takeover of the government.

He seems different than his father. He is much more concerned with grass roots politics and this is the way for us liberals to go.

We can rebuild the Democratic Party from the bottom up. We have to remember that we can't do the smear tactics that are leveled against us by some Republicans. We have to remember that most of the Clinton bashing was done by people who had lots of skeletons in their own personal closets such as Gingrich, and many of the hippo-Christians. When someone smears you,
it's important to see who they are and chances are they are projecting their guilt on others.

Working on the grass roots to get Democratically elected county commissioners, people on the school boards, local races in your community and lots of letters to the editor of every newspaper. We have a Democratic governor in Montana and Washington now. This is the first step to reclaim America.

An independent party was tried in the late forties by Henry Wallace which served a good purpose but had no real traction in the ensuing election. I think that Democrats have got to holler at the DLC and the DNC and let them know they don't represent our base. Dean as DNC chairman could send that message.
If they get the message we can win.

So far, I don't personally see anyone with the charisma of Clinton to lead us. Clinton wasn't perfect for those of us on the left but he did a lot more than what's happening now. We needed to energize our base and we did hold his feet to the fire by opposing the WTO and NAFTA abuses. Clinton was really more of a true Conservative rather than a mainstream Democrat in my opinion. He had the good attributes of Conservatism in that he managed the Federal Budget and did what Gingrich said he wanted to do. There are no true Conservatives left in the Bush Administration.

The worst thing we can do is get so angry that everyone gets turned off and alienated. At the same time we can stand up for what we believe and not compromise.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 07:11 PM

NAFTA is a bloody disgrace for all of us. Damned corporate garbage playing in the sandbox, IMO. Only people happy with NAFTA are the rich. Sure ain't doing the poor any good.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 07:17 PM

Frank:

You've oput your finger on one of the key questions. When certain kinds of rhetoric -- bombast, vicious ad-hominems, straight misrepresentation delivered with perfect certainty, intentional distortions completely separate from any logic -- get thrown, the less-thoughtful masses tend to by the reactions. This puts the whole question on a different footing. The number of times I have seen this kind of wild-eyed party-line distortion actually take effect is mind-numbing. Bush is a master of delivering pronunciamentos that are logically enough to make you barf, with a straight face. Even here in the Mudcat this sort of thing gets pulled regularly, although with less success.

What's the answer to dirty rhetoric? If the Dems roll out a campign around RFK Jr the first they'll do is throw acid in his face, rhetorically speaking.

A


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 07:18 PM

Could you explain for the Brits exactly who Boss Hog is? I've never heard of him before..mythological?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 07:24 PM

I think he is the personification of large, over-fattened corporate power-brokering characters.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 07:59 PM

Thanks, Amos... I had a another description but I like yers just fine...

Plus, didn't have to run up thre blood pressure with this post...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Teresa
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 08:10 PM

Until the Dems come out openly and say the war on Terrorism is wrong, (even Kerry didn't do this.) I'm not listening to them.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff wdyat12
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 08:16 PM

Robert F. Kennedy JR. has my vote!

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 02:34 PM

Hi Amos,

You're right. There is always a danger that a thoughtful man like RFK Jr. will be manhandled by Repubs and Dems. There is always a resistance against changing the status quo.

In my view, the answer to rhetoric is to reframe the discussion.
Acknowledge the ad-hominem responses and present the reframe. It can be a moral or political or factual statement.

RFK Jr. does this very well. He's really my hero.

Dean does this well too.

Bush doesn't deal with issues. He is clear to those who believe him. It's about emotional reaction (reactionary) rather than an honest dialogue. It's rare to hear an honest dialogue on Mudcat.
But now and again you get 'em and it's interesting and valuable.
i've learned quite a bit from Mudcat.

In dealing with Bush, facts are not as important as propaganda.
He is thoroughly convinced (or at least feels is necessary to present this view to the public) that he is right and his views are inculcated by "any means necessary". This is the Karl Rove
approach to winning over the public. Bush's self-righteous rhetoric stems largely from his convictions about God talking to him personally. Karl Rove (Bush's brain) is probably more circumspect about the nature of the Crapture, but sees it as a political tool to defeat his opponents. In the meantime, Bush as self-divined sees his role as Commander-in-Chief of the world, a childish fantasy that puts him into the role of a dictator.

I don't hate Bush but I would like to see him put on trial for war crimes by the World Court and have Amnesty International be a part of the proceedings. This is not an ad-hominem statement.
I have this recurring nightmare that if I were ever to meet Bush, Nixon or Reagan personally that I might like them. This has nothing to do however with how these men function in office.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 02:45 PM

It came out today in the news that RFK, Jr. is not going to run for NY Attorney general and does not plan on running for anything until his children are older.

His youngest child is 3.

So, Jesse Jackson is probably still available for the dems I would think.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 02:46 PM

Men like that often have effective personal reality-distortion fields that make them charming socially. There have been reports that Adolf was that way.

Re-framing is a good name for the most irritating tactic when it is used against you. For example, here on the Cat there is a small handful of people who take any effort at factual dialogue and re-frame instanter into a collision of ad-hominem insults and huge generalities.   To reframe them back is a wonderful skill indeed.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 03:16 PM

And you know Adolf well, it seems Amos.

I look at it this way. Here at the Cat there are a small amount of pseudo-intellectuals who try to force there twisted anti-American socialistic issues, structure them as facts according to themselves, and try to jam them down your throat.

The "everything the establishment does is wrong mentality" here is laughable. they refuse to believe anyone could possibly be happy and truly living the American dream.

In other words, what part of "you are full of crap, Amos" don't you understand?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 03:48 PM

Ad-hominem seems to be the current word of choice here on the Mudcat. Sure used a lot in this thread at least. Must be a good word.

How many of you folks will support Howard Dean's candidacy for the Chairmanship of the Democratic Party? Calling for "creep" I know, but doubt the subject deserved a thread of it's own. Personally, I think he would be a good chairman.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 03:53 PM

What I will be interested in seeing is how quickly all this "fascism" rhetoric will cool upon the election of a Democrat as POTUS next term. Evan Bayh -- get used to the name. *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 04:18 PM

Sheeesh, Martin, why is it "anti-American" to oppose the continuous enrichment of a tiny already-overprivileged minotiry at the expense of the rest of us Americans?

While there are certainly a very few folks actually prospering under the current regime, I would venture that *most* of that 51% of voters who returned Georgie Boy for a second term may be "happy and truly living the American dream" only because they are truly living in a dream world. They think they're part of the privileged class favored by God and the Republican party just because they're white and/or Protestant, but one day they'll wake up and realize that they've been screwed over, just like those of us who recognized the situation all along.

The saddest cases will be the volunteer soldiers who survive to learn how severely their veterans' benefits, VA medical programs, etc., have been cut.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 04:25 PM

Anti-American? You are one stupid sonuvabitch, Martin, and calling me Anti-American is about the stupidest of your witless utterances to date. Nor am I a socialist, and if you had the brain cells God gave a gosling you would know that.

Go piss upwind, you dumb turkey.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 04:35 PM

You know, if he gets elected he may well attempt to do what he wants to. However, I don't know that the Kennedy name is enough anymore. Martin, I do not doubt that there are people who are indeed happy and living the American dream. the problem, my friend is that there are far too few people in this country doing that. The problem is not just brought about by the conservative element either. American politics has turned into an Augean stable that is far overdue for a cleaning. The current trend toward a police state concerns me and no-one seems to be saying anything about that on either side of the aisle in congress. We have an administration that wants to lock away people withoput a trial for the rest of their lives because they fought against us. If they are the terrorists the government claims, bring them to trial. Oh, wait, they don't have enough evidence to do that! Sounds like a new take of the infamous nigght and fog decree to me. Our children are not getting the education they need and deserve but we can spend money for the inaugaration to the tune of fourty million dollars. (And yes I know that some of that was donated) That money could buy a lot of medical care for the boys and girls being injured in our quest to conquer Iraq in the name of freedom. I'm going to sign off as I am starting to rant and the people who richly deserve to hear my rant would ignore it if they could even understand it. (No I'm not talking about any mudcatters.) Neil

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 04:40 PM

Gee, amos you are so abusive.

Look what I've brought out in you.

What a riot!

You are anti-American, a whiner, a left wing pansy and a douche-bag.

But that's OK. You are still a Mudcat icon. a phony one, though.


poppa-Gator, I wake up every day grateful for what I have and for what I have worked for. I do not want for anything. I am happy completely with my life and truly do consider it the American dream. You throw nothing but speculation at me. sure, I believe there is room for improvement and always will be. I voted Republican this election because it was the best choice as far as how I saw the direction of this country going. How I vote next election is completely undecided.

I don't believe as many people you think are living in a dream world. Maybe it's not Utopia for all, but I believe that 51% MAJORITY felt it was our best shot.


Amos, I have no time for any debate with you. You are way too abusive and now has been proven to be one of the biggest phonies on this board. Looks like you have finally snapped. that's your problem.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 05:04 PM

OIL OIL OIL

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 05:22 PM

OK, Martin. Thanks for your time. Sorry I was abusive!! Dunno what came over me!! LOL


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 05:27 PM

Sheesh, you're sick.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 05:54 PM

I dont think I'm sick. But Martin you accuse the fellow of being abusive. He apologised and then you tell him he is sick. Cool off and draw back.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 06:01 PM

I don't care, guest. I don't. Go suck an egg.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson's proctologist
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 06:11 PM

Please forgive Martin's outbursts. His 'roids have flared up and he's especially surly today.

Dr. Derriere

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 02:55 AM

Amos - Stop responding to the troll. He hates that more than anything. He needs attention (positive or negative) and will say anything to get your attention. Makes you wonder why, if he's so happy with his life, he is so needy. He's just a big energy suck.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST,A.
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:07 AM

Yes ma'a'm, quite right.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:27 AM

Amos and Martin are both trolls. Amos is just the more popular troll here at Mudcat. I took an oath to not respond to either of them, when Amos went off the deep end last year over the election. I never did respond to Martin. It was obvious to me from the day he appeared here, that he was a bigoted, insensitive jerk of a troll, and not worth the time of day.

But then, Mudcat is troll paradise...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 09:58 AM

I am honored, oh, nameless one, that I should have such an effect on someone who doesn't have the cojones to even use a repeatable identity, let alone a real name. If it seems to you that Mudcat is troll paradise, it may be your own projection from your hidden piece of cyberspace talking.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Kennedy: Fascist America'
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 03:11 PM

Amos, I'm in it for the total fun of it. Every time I come here.

I don't lose any sleep over this place. I type my posts with a big grin knowing some phonies here are getting their feathers ruffled.

Are'nt you, in all of your completely opposite life and death seriousness of this place, glad that you are joined at the hip with me?

what a complete riot.