punkfolkrocker, question?

Subject: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:22 AM

Hi,

I was fascinated by your introduction in the "purist" thread. Since you seem willing to discuss it, I'm really curious about your attraction to punk rock.

Did you enjoy it as music? A statement? Accessbiblity? Comraderie?

I know so many who have come the same route as you (from punk to folk) and, as the gap between the two seems very narrow at the point of philosophy, but so WIDE at the point of style, I'm interested in whether you see them as the same thing or as different as spagetti and lawnmowers.

I admit to a fascination with things I can't seem to "get", and I never "got" punk rock -- not as music anyway. I never assumed the problem was with the style (punk), I always assumed that is was me who was lacking something.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:24 AM

hi.. yeah i'll answer this seriously,
but not right now.. i need time to think about it
as i've not given it much thought for many years;
and the wife has plans for the rest of the day..

but please dont expect too accademic
or well spelled an answer these days...
[now if you'd asked me about 20 years ago when i was working
towards an M.A. in culture and ideology studies..
aborted for reasons of poverty and student debt..]

but a quick answer in the meantime..

punk/folk can be simple minimalist emotional music/song structure;
created by musically self-educated amateur performers
for their own purposes within their local peer community

subject matter of positive punk/folk songs can be expression of dissent, resistance,
satire, bitter resent, retaliation,
of exploited/alienated 'working class'/socially marginalised cultures..

punk/folk can be lively, loud, rude, disrespectfull of elitist conservative 'polite' civil society.

punk/folk can involve partying, alchohol, libido, and FUN !!!!

punk/folk traditional fondness for cheap cider

punk/folk = joy of wassailing !!???


and lots more stuff i've not thought about for at least 15 years

Subject: RE: , question?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:33 AM

oh.. and very important..

late 20th cent punk and quite a lot of time before that folk
musicians use the most common readily available low cost
affordable musical instruments [and publishing methods] to communicate and disseminate their musical 'messages'
as quickly and effectively as possible..

of course this is all imho and quickly from [disfunctional] memory

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:40 AM

I certainly don't like all punk rock, but I like the simplicity and the power. It has a no-frills immediacy to it, that I'd think is in common with folk. But, I await punk rockers response.

While most punk rockers have always dissmissed Green Day, I think their new album is brilliant.

Jerry

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,SJ
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:53 AM

Punk is the contemporary folk of today, more than any other music except hip hop, at least in the US.

My daughter just brought home a cool new book on the DC punk scene (Positive Force, straight edge, Riot Grrl...) called "Dance of Days: Two Decades of Punk in the Nation's Capital" by Mark Andersen & Mark Jenkins, published by Akashic Books.

Only problem I've ever had with punk is the same problem I've had with folk: the purists annoy the fuck out of me.

Not only do we need to put a bullet through the jukebox, we also need to put a bullet through the high buck, high end instrument/vocal music education craze and the museumification of the music among & by middle and upper middle class fookies.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:03 PM

I can't help feeling that somewhere out there, there are people of college age, who are punks, simply because their parents were.....

Bet their family sing songs at weddings and such, are ...*interesting*!

LTS

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: beetle cat
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:33 PM

hahahh, very interesting thought LTS.
I was raised on Punk, mostly due to my brothers influence, and somehow that got me interested in the folk world. Eventually, when listening to bands like Flogging Molly and Great Big Sea (not really punk.. but whatever) I realized that I especially enjoyed the songs without the loud percussion and such. So that is my story.
In terms of style, there are similarities, like joining in on the chorus, and that feeling, when you go to a show that you are a member of something. Weather it be a punk show or a folk show (if its a good folk show), there is the same surge of energy on the chorus. Just something about being able to scream obscene phrases...
cheers
mary.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:42 PM

I have thought for some time that there is common ground between punk and folk, and not simply in the emotional core of the music. The soccer-chant choruses of Sham 69 and the melodies of Stiff Little Fingers remind me of folk melodies. Nothing purist, but I think there are connections.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:44 PM

THANK YOU - PFR

Your point of view is a welcome breeze through the fetid-incestuous-aires that have be-set the Cafe in the past couple of years.

Looking foreward to more of your postings.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:59 PM

Well, I like anything that comes from the heart. Punk. Some rap. Some hip hop. Techno. Punk. Folk. And, of course being a blues player, blues!

What I don't like is what veer Clear Channel likes because it ain't coming from the heart... It's produced for only one reason: to make money...

Bobert

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:51 AM

I cannot see how you can draw comparisons between the rebellion and teen angst of The Clash and The Pistols etc. with the ethereal wispish laments of Fairport Convention and Pentangle etc. Besides, I know what Johnny and Sid and Joe et al, all thought of Richard and Sandy et al. Although, I wouldn't print it here I'm sure most of you get the idea. However, it does make shoehorning a Truck into a Hat seem plausible; anything is possible with some of you folks and I like that.

Keep It Unreal!

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:59 AM

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:12 PM

[damn that 'Enter' key..!!]

just visiting quick before meeting mrs to go to Tescos..

me, i certainly dont want to be held up here as some kind of spokeperson for punk.. i'm now middle aged for ****s sake;
and its a long time since 1977..

but imho any parallels i personally draw between punk and folk
are mostly regarding smaller scale local music level amateur/hobbyist/self financed recording/ singers& musicians;
most of whom we will probably never have heard of..
and potential possibilities for future music from people like myself
and any others of similar conviction..

so just wondering if it would be more effective here if Admin/mods could change thread title to something like..

"Folk & Punk, what similarities ?"

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,punkfolk rocker
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:14 PM

or ....

"Folk and Punk, shared characteristics ???"

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:18 PM

Confession time. Long ago and far away, before I followed the true path. Me and my trusty Les Paul Custom used to play in a punk band, that eventually evolved into "The Sisters of mercy." Any body remember that band? I left because I thought they were rubbish, silly me!!!!!

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:19 PM

so far, many rsponses have been quite patronizing.

Why beat around the bush? Most everyone here can't stand punk or rap music.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:39 PM

..and who here is insisting anyone should enjoy it..?

a lot of people, me not included, think bluegrass is shite

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,Countess Báthory
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:54 PM

wow Flameno Ted

Goth folk !

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:23 PM

Sidewinder-

Then what about the Pogues, who at their best were about 2/3rds Irish/British folk and 1/3 Sex Pistols? What about X, who acknowledged country and folk influences? What about Crass, who claimed punk was the "people's music'? (and you don't have to like any of this stuff to admit there are connections).

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:24 PM

There was always an emotional connection in the UK between folk and punk. Straightfroward songs sung with feeling. No frills arrangements which get straight to the point. Words you can sing along to and join in with. The main separation was the instruments used.
This was blurred by the Pogues, The Men They Couldn't Hang and other "Punk Folk" bands.
As for the Goth scene - There is a much closer musical connection with bands such as New Model Army. Nelson, their bass player also performed n his own band Nelson's Column, which is definitely folk based plus novelty stuff such as Bonzo Dog material.
And just for the record, about a year before the Levellers hit the UK charts, they were touring as support band for New Model Army. I didn't know who they were so didn't see the gig.
Quack!
GtD

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:09 PM

Guest(who?) The Truck is backing into the

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:43 PM

Guest -The Truck is Backing Into The Hat and you are in the driving seat. Please illuminate us further with your keen understanding of Punk and Folk Hybrids that could stand shoulder to shoulder with a clear message of Anarchy and Disullionment with society and all its longstanding values. The Pogues sang in 1990 "Down the alley the Ice Wagon flew picked up a stiff that was turning blue.The local kids were sniffin' glue, not much else for kids to do" then a year later "Fare thee well gone away there's nothing left to say.With slainte Joe and Erin go. My loves in Amerikay". Definitely a punk stance in the previous song and a folk approach in the latter work. I am always open to peoples opinions and I asked a punkrocker once what he thought of The Pogues and he said "F**k The Pogues, They are sh*t".Whilst, not so long ago, I was at my local folk night and somebody broached the subject of The Pogues being in the folk tradition and several people dismissed this as "utter rubbish". Therefore, where are The Pogues in the musical scheme of things? Well most punks hate them, most folkies hate them, and I; as neither punk nor folkie love them (bearing in mind I am a Beatlemaniac)pretty much means The Pogues are pop with a penchant for traditional Irish melodies and an a passing interest in the work of Joe Strummer etc.This obviously curries no favour with the hardliners .....and the Truck is emerging from the Hat again.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:08 PM

Interesting thoughts, punkfolkrocker. And I appreciate your sharing 'em.

Sidewinder,

I think the reason for my curiousity about the punk-folk connection is exactly what I think you are saying -- that is, stylistically (if you can think of folk "stylisticially" -- and I admit that's a weak way of looking at folk) the two are as different to me as (I said above) spagetti and lawnmowers.

But the connection is undeniable -- SO MANY have either made that transition or walk seamlessly between the two. Recent article in Acoustic Guitar Magazine is about Robyn Hichcock whe made the transition and his latest recording project is with Gillian Wech and David Rawlings for-pete's-sake.

My other curiosity about punk is that I don't get it. It bugs me whenever I don't "get" something. I like to dig a little deeper and figure out why. Of course there's no accounting for taste, but if I'm missing the obvious, I want to know.

I understand it philosophically -- just can't get my tastes around it. But then, I still like my coffee with cream and sugar after 40+ years of drinking it.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:38 PM

For me:- The Punk Ethos is we can't play, we can't sing, we can't dance and we can't perform. We don't care whether you like it or not we are going to do it all, and more, simply because we can! "And We Don't Care".In a world of manufactured and classically schooled manipulated automotons with ostentatious and gregarious appetites for pomp circus rockola, it is somewhat refreshing to think there are kids strong willed enough to say "up yours!" to the powerbrokers of the music marketeers and "we'll do it for ourselves rather than buy your toothless pap".Whereas, your folk credentials are "I can tune to 12 different keys, I know what to do with a capo and the counter melody is as relevant to the song as the lead".You can see from this where I have the problem bringing the two together in any cohesive representation of a true hybrid.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:49 PM

Interesting take.

And I can somewhat uderstand your generalizations, though I've been given to understand that several who are involved in punk are quite accomplished musically -- though that's not the point of the exercise...

...like the comparison of Norman Rockwell to Mark Rothko. Hell, they ain't nuthin' in 'em Rothko paintins! Jis sum red paint. But that Rockwell, man, he makes 'em paintins all purdy an' real-like.

And Ive gathered from some post here that, though there are some accomplished musicians here, they are my no means the rule -- lotsa strummers and mediocre players. So "folk" by no means implies instrumental virtuosity.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:58 PM

Flogging Molly have already been mentioned here..

so heres another example

the Real Mckenzies

their web site is down at the moment,
which is a shame because i think it provided a good links page
to similar punk celt bands..


anyway, heres a link to their Amazon page with sample sound clips

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=music&field-artist=Real%20Mckenzies%2C%20The/026-3923646-3566019

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:42 PM

Sidewinder-

Where I live lots of punks like the Pogues, and the few folk types around usually like them.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:08 PM

Sidewinder - your definition of the punk ethos implies that you've not listened to much of The Clash - or (far more likely) you're playing devil's advocate. There are a lot of people out there who pretend that they've put in no effort. Usually, if they get past the first tour, that's an illusion. I always thought the punk ethos was "we've not learned by any conservatoire rules, we just got hold of some instruments or used our voices and tried to work out what to do with them ..." Not the same as folk, but really not that radically opposed? Besides, people like Billy Bragg, Chumbawamba, the Pogues and the Levellers have a habit of rendering categories meaningless.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:41 PM

Is there an issue of purpose? The purpose of punk is surely to offend - or at least to demonstrate alienation from one's parents' generation (God save the Queen, Peaches, One two, fuck you, to name but three songs of different but fairly typical punk groupings).

This is probably not so of some folk. Some is of course intended to offend - but not to offend parents as such. So the output of some musicians could be categorised - some as folk, some not, so avoiding the hard questions about the Pogues. For them, say, "A curse upon you Oliver Cromwell" is about rule occupation and maybe the class war, not parental authority. The Levellers may be different in that althought there is protest, again it seems to me it is largely at rule and class, not age, but more importantly the style is not punk.

Such a distinction however leaves a problem in categorising "oi!" bands and the nazi-punks.

Not an answer so much as another avenue, maybe, for discussion

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 04:02 AM

I have every Clash album for your information sheperdlass and before I discovered The Beatles they were my favourite band so tut tut! Some interesting analogies -I agree I did generalise in my last posting but I don't see a problem in that, as I was only trying to illustrate a divide in social and cultural acceptance using the Pogues (given reference point -and I am an admirer of their work) as my example. I don't think Punk set out to offend parents I believe it was intended to alienate them totally.Whereas, most parents love folk music and would probably have an influence on who the teenage folkie listened to it is pretty much the most acceptable music for teenagers to listen to; even my grandma liked most of it. My parents loved Dylans songs but didn't think much to his voice.However, that was never a problem.I do play devils advocate on quite a few issues raised I find it is in my nature to do so.

Best Wishes.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: goodbar
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:05 PM

i was into punk before i got into folk. all punk is is just pissed off hippies.

there's a lot i like and dislike about punk, like there is a lot i like and dislike about folk.

it's amazing how much of an impact punk music made on me from 9th grade to 10th and to now. it kind of scares me to think about who i would have been now if i hadn't started listening to crass and stuff, even though i'm only 16.

i will leave you all with this:

"punk is dead" -crass, 1977

Yes that's right, punk is dead,
It's just another cheap product for the consumers head.
Bubblegum rock on plastic transistors,
Schoolboy sedition backed by big time promoters.
CBS promote the Clash,
But it ain't for revolution, it's just for cash.
Punk became a fashion just like hippy used to be
And it ain't got a thing to do with you or me.

Movements are systems and systems kill.
Movements are expressions of the public will.
Punk became a movement cos we all felt lost,
But the leaders sold out and now we all pay the cost.
Punk narcissism was social napalm,
Steve Jones started doing real harm.
Preaching revolution, anarchy and change
As he sucked from the system that had given him his name.

Well I'm tired of staring through shit stained glass,
Tired of staring up a superstars arse,
I've got an arse and crap and a name,
I'm just waiting for my fifteen minutes fame.
Steve Jones you're napalm,
If you're so pretty (vacant) why do you swarm?
Patti Smith you're napalm,
You write with your hand but it's Rimbaud's arm.

And me, yes I, do I want to burn?
Is there something I can learn?
Do I need a business man to promote my angle?
Can I resist the carrots that fame and fortune dangle?
I see the velvet zippies in their bondage gear,
The social elite with safety-pins in their ear,
I watch and understand that it don't mean a thing,
The scorpions might attack, but the systems stole the sting.

Punk is dead!
Punk is dead!
Punk is dead!
Punk is dead!
Punk is dead!...

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:36 PM

And Crass said and believed punk was the "people's music". I think the punk / folk connections may be more obvious to Americans, given that our archetypical folkie is Woody Guthrie (I mean that he is the individual most likely to named as an American folkie). With Guthrie, you get a energetic, stripped-down performance coupled with a mood of defiance and a 'to hell with it' ethos. Which sounds a lot like punk to me.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 06:40 PM

I always think Dylan is the archetypral folkie to the world at large.However, to anyone who researches Dylans' history you must encounter the incomperable Guthrie and Ramblin' Jack and Dave Van Ronk etc.But could any of them be classed as Punk ? I doubt it. I think if any musical style has an inherent claim on Punk it would have to be Rock and Roll and in particular the garage bands of the early sixties -The Kingsmen, MC5 etc.The Folk/Punk link is a very tenuous link at best.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:40 PM

Sidewinder-

I never said that Guthrie (or Dylan or Elliot) could be classified as punk, I said that I have noticed stylistic parallels. I also should mention Guthrie's politics in this context. I would not argue that there is an evolutionary trajectory from folk to punk, though I would note that various punk rockers have side-stepped into more folkish forms. Some of these artists have been mentioned. I'll add to the list: Canada's DOA who from time to time have performed accoustically (as Drunks On Acoustics); and the Knitters (members of X, Blasters and others-not that I'd call the Blasters punk, but X fits in that category).

I agree that there are obvious connections between 1960s garage bands and punk, but I would say the strongest contender for punk granddaddy would be the Sonics from the Pacific Northwest.

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:53 PM

just google away some spare time with any or all of these

punkfolk
punk folk
punk-folk

folkpunk
folk punk
folk-punk

they're definitley out there...

[ seems to be quite popular in Canada..??? ]

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 08:21 PM

..told you i'm middle-aged and just a bit out of touch with whats going on..

my googling expedition has turned up this sub variant,
which is new to me..

"anti-folk"

More up middle finger than finger-in-your ear, Anti-Folk is folk with a punk attitude - none of yer fol-de-o-ray here, though acoustic guitars may be spotted alongside the electric ones and beards can indeed be found amongst some of the more hirsute band members (though not a fashion violation per-se and certainly not obligatory).

Subject: RE: punkfolkrocker, question?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 08:27 PM

though wikipedia definition dont sound too different to
what we're already discussing as 'punkfolk'..
words eh...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-folk

.. so lets see what google can do with 'folky ant'