BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?

Subject: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: GUEST,SJ
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:12 PM

It has come to my attention reading through the Iraqi election threads today that not too many American Mudcatters seem to be very up on what this Iraqi election thing is all about.

As the BBC reported this week:

"It is sometimes hard to tell the difference between public service broadcasts made by the Independent Iraqi Electoral Commission and election ads endorsing a particular political party, as most share a lofty, above-politics style, appealing to people to vote as an act of everyday heroism.

One public information ad shows an old man facing down a group of masked youths with the help of other ordinary Iraqis."

So in another words, the occupation government propaganda is telling Iraqis they must vote in order to oppose the insurgency, which many of them support, at least for reasons of protective coloration.

And then there is the question of where is the money coming from to advertise the candidates and their positions?

Occupation government head, Interim Prime Minister Allawi (a former CIA agent), used his political influence and financial resources to dominate election coverage, especially on al-Iraqiyah (the government owned network).

How "free and fair" is that? And then, incredulously, the US media turns around and reports how good Allawi's chances are of being "re-elected" prime minister.

Yet, how many Americans or Brits know about these things? All we've seen on our newscasts for weeks and months, have been reports about the "security situation", and have rarely mentioned that the entire country is being ruled by martial law. Allawi first declared martial law on November 8, 2004, for 60 days. The following day, Iraq's most prominent Sunni party, the Iraqi Islamic Party, says it is withdrawing from the interim government. The Association of Muslim Scholars, a group of respected Sunni clerics, calls for a boycott of coming elections.

Allawi extended martial law indefinitely again in early January, to last "through the election period".

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:22 PM

Just another thought...

If I were an Iraqi as a resitant fighter, I'd sho nuff vote because I'm sure the prevailing feeling is that if one doesn't then they certainly are part of the resistence and I certainly wouldn't want to tip my hand...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:31 PM

I know what you have said is true and that Alawi is another highly paid, Bush puppet. I also agree that coverage of this so-called election is superficial to say the least. I do not believe for one minute that there is anything fair and democratic about the situation in Iraq (or in the U.S. for that matter).

What I do believe (and maybe its just because I'm being optimistic) is that those who voted for the first time in their lives have actually had a taste of freedom. In other words, they have experienced a solidarity with one another which is (in their minds) a step towards liberation.

Based on our own experience with Democracy, we know that it is all smoke and mirrors. In fact, when the Iraqis who voted realize that they've been had, there will be a civil war like no others. The people of Iraq have been betrayed. They just don't know it yet.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:23 PM

Why, dianavan, do you equate the ability (some would say, being coerced) to participate in a sham election, is in any way equivalent to "freedom"?

What does voting in sham elections have to do with freedom? This is where the whole thing falls down. The US politicians know, from long experience, that so long as you force a country to have "free elections" that the gullible Americans will believe they are seeing an actual expression of democratic freedom taking place. It isn't.

TRUE freedom is the freedom to live in a country with a legitimate justice system. TRUE freedom is freedom of speech, freedom to dissent from the official government view, freedom to assemble and organize, freedom of movement, habeas corpus, etc. etc.

There already is a civil war going on Iraq. If you aren't aware of it, it is because you aren't paying attention.

This is the EXACT SAME STRATEGY the US used in Vietnam, to topple Diem, add fuel to the civil war, and prevent the truly "free and fair elections" promised to the Vietnamese people in Geneva accord between the Vietnamese and the French. Instead we staged sham election after sham election, propping up each dictator for as long as they would last.

Why did we do it? Because the anti-communists like Dulles knew that Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh would win by a landslide. And they didn't want ANY country voting in a communist regime, much less one so close to China.

None of the freedoms of a liberal republican democracy exists now in Iraq, or will exist anytime in the forseeable future there. That is why the election is referred to as a "sham". It is pointless. Meaningless. Of use only for it's propaganda value back home.

If you insist upon being "optimistic" just because you feel sentimental when you hear all the propaganda stories on TV about the Iraqi people "bravely voting" must remember: every person who voted has an indelible mark on their hand. Tomorrow morning in Iraq when the curfew ends, you can bet their hands are going to be checked by the occupation and insurgent forces to see if they voted or not. That mark, or the absence of it, will be used as yet another means of intimidating the Iraqi people.

And to what end?

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: GUEST,new guest
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:38 PM

And how they manipulate us!
On Sky TV news in the UK the spoken headline is "60% of registered voters turned out to vote".
The visual printed headline read "60% of Iraqis voted".
My bet is that within a few days the general quote in discussions will be "60% of Iraqis voted"
Someone listen and post when Bush first says this lie, and we'll listen for Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: GUEST,new new new Guest
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:48 PM

diferent Guest, same as the rest!

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:07 PM

You know guest, I thought I explained myself quite well but if you are going to argue with the fact that many Iraqis have hope in their hearts, I think we have come to dead end.

I won't deny anybody the right to hope for freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:16 PM

The answer to the question posed by this thread is different for different areas of Iraq.
The Shia are voting for power, something they haven't tasted for over fifty years.
The power when and if it arrives will immediately be passed into the hands of the clerics...exactly as they have planned.
The Kurds want power, to create their own autonomous region of Iraq, which co-incidentaly contain the majority of the oil reserves.

The Sunnis have been ordered to boycott the election as they would lose control everywhere.

the election which the Americans see as their salvation, will actually worsen the security situation as the different factions polarise even further.
The endgame will probably be partition under an American controlled administration. The final battle will still be between Western culture and Islam, and Western culture will win.

Last night ,on UK tv, I watched an old Chinese peasant couple viewing trashy Western pop music on tv enthralled.
The unpleasant truth is that the ordinary people dont want democracy, they want circuses

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:32 PM

dianavan, you did explain yourself. The statement of yours I'm having trouble with is the "if you are going to argue with the fact that many Iraqis have hope in their hearts" assertion.

How do you know this to be a "fact"? I am presuming you assume it to be fact because that is what you, and all the others asserting that statement to be "fact", are actually just repeating what the mainstream media has been telling you was the Iraqi peoples' reasons for going to the polls.

The Iraqi people are being terrorized on all sides--by other Iraqis, by the occupation forces, by the insurgents. Their reasons for voting or not voting are going to be extremely complex, and not reducable to a single, upbeat, smiley face sound byte from the talking heads reporting on this "historic" election.

Elections held in war zones under martial law are NEVER what the American reporters say they are--and none of the American reporters actually has access to Joe and Jane Iraqi citizen anyway. It is simply too dangerous for the journalists from ANY country to go outside the Green Zone and actually meet red blooded Iraqis at this point.

akenaton is right. The big winners today will not be Allawi, even though I have no doubt he will win. The big winner will be Sistani and the clerics, and possibly the Kurds, but even the Kurds are looking pretty iffy at this point.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:35 PM

www.motherjones.com/news/update/2005/01/01_402.html

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:39 PM

Here you go folks. brucie, why not just learn to do the blue clicky? It takes all of 8 clicks of your mouse to do what I did below.

www.motherjones.com/news/update/2005/01/01_402.html

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:44 PM

Except it didn't work! AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!

This one is good though.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2005/01/01_402.html

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:54 PM

OK. I will try.
One more time.
What are the steps, SVP?

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:04 PM

1.Find a page you want to link to.

2.Right click on it and select properties.

3.That shows you the URL ( address)

4.Highlight the URL

5.Right click and select COPY

6.On the bit under the bit where you post your message to a thread, find the make clicky bit, press it.

7. In the space next to URL (top one) put your cursor and right click.

8. Select PASTE.

9. That puts the URL you chose in that gap.

10. Test that that does go to the page you want.

11. It then tells you on the page to copy and paste that into your thread.

12. Again just right click on it to copy it, and in the message part right click again to paste.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: freightdawg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:55 PM

I want to thank you Dianavan.

For just a moment there I was beginning to think like an ugly American. I was beginning to think that the blood that saturated the middle of this country in the late 1800's actually meant something. I was beginning to think that when I stood in line to cast my ballot shoulder to shoulder with black men and women, with hispanic men and women, with rich men and women and with poor men and women that I was actually participating in the great exercise called democracy. How stupid I was. How stupid we all were. Record numbers of stupid people all across the state I live in - all incredibly, amazingly, unbelievably stupid.

I was beginning to think that the sacrifices of my uncles and the thousands that formed their brotherhood actually brought about some good in this world. I was under the mistaken idea that the thousands that just celebrated the liberation of Auschwitz were actually glad to get out of that hell hole. I was actually stupid enough to believe that we have fought war after war after war to create an environment that might just actually allow freedom to develop, let alone foster it.

Boy, how stupid I was. But you straightened me out, Dianavan. You even straightened all those stupid Iraqis out. Yep. All those ignorant, stupid, mind-numbed idiot ragheads over there that have the mistaken idea that, by casting a free ballot for the first time in 50 years, they have actually accomplished something. The dumb men and women who stood in line not knowing whether they would be blown up or cast their vote in ink. The idiots who just want their little boys and little girls to have a chance at a life that somewhat resembles freedom, whether it is the freedom you have or not. Yes, I cannot believe all those stupid people over there are just so stupid.

But good ol' Dianavan has everything all figured out. I don't know what her idea of democracy is, 'cause I'm so stupid. But I sure would like to know. I thought voting in a free election was democracy. I thought the guy who got the most votes won the election (at least thats the way it worked when Clinton won, despite having more people vote against him. He won the election because he won the greatest number of votes of the three candidates). But when the guy Dianavan voted against won the election its not democracy. Its not a democracy when Dianavan has the protected freedom to get out and demonstrate against the policies that she disagrees with. Its not a democracy when, in two years, there will be another election for the house and some senate seats. Its not a democracy when in four years there will be another presidential election. Its not a democracy when anyone who presents a bill has to get it through two houses of elected officials, get it signed by the president and have it stand judicial review by the courts. It's not a democracy when you can stand on the street corner and say anything you want, or write a letter to a free newspaper and write anything you want. Nope. None of that is democracy because Dianavan says it aint so.

Thanks, Dianavan. I was worried there for a minute that I might actually, really be living in a free land.

FD

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:26 PM

Good post, freightdawg. Said a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:28 PM

Thank you, GUEST, for going to all that trouble for me. I am printing off your instructions and I will try real soon--within the next twenty minutes. Thank you sincerely--and thanks too for making the link.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:38 PM

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3172642a10,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:39 PM

Dang, GUEST, you da man. THANK YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:46 PM

Yo, FD.... Would you like to define democracy without the 100 peiece orchastra and the flag waving? And yer uncles or whoever, BTW, freeing folks held in concentration camps. And without Lassie coming to tell folks that "Timmy is in the well"?

Yeah, I'd really like to hear your definition of democracy. And when you're done with that, tell me why it's so great, will ya?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:54 PM

Right on brucie...now we gotta work on Bobert!

Hey Bobert--after y'all get Timmy outta the well, maybe there will still be time to drive on down to the polling place to save Gramps...who walked all of a mile to the nearest polling place, miraculously as it turned out (though we aren't sure why exactly), only to find that Ruth (Timmy's loverly mum), had left the Oil for Food cards back at the farm...

You probably seen the footage on CNN tonight anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:56 PM

Is this the link someone wanted?

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2005/01/01_402.html

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:58 PM

Oooohhh! Now I heard the Iraqi voters weren't just brave--now that the polling is over, they were DEFIANT! So take that Bin Laden!

And turnout was "better than expected" (surprise, surprise) despite the bombings! Now there's something you always want to be able to say about your elections, ain't it? That turn out was "better than expected despite the bombings of the polling places"?

Yup. That is the mark of a mighty fine, mighty successful election, right there. Dang--elections don't get any better than this now do they?

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: mg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:01 PM

No, actually they don't. mg

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:05 PM

LOL, GUEST....

What a big joke and guess what? There's about half the people in the country who are so ill-informed that they'ed buy snow at the North Pole...

Now back to CBS and the big lie, ahhhh, story....

Like you said. It's just one day off from the raging civil war that Bush and his gang have created and now can't stop...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:54 PM

Dear GUEST of 30 Jan 05 - 10:56 PM

Thank you for posting the link. Won't have to do that anymore because

GUEST of 30 Jan 05 - 09:04 PM showed me how to do it.

I appreciate the time you both took, very much. Thank you.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:07 AM

"Don't ask me, I don't give a damn, 'cos next stop is old IRAN"

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:30 AM

freightdawg - back off!

I am happy that the Iraqis have hope in their hearts.

You said, "I thought voting in a free election was democracy."

Do you realize that Iraq is under martial law?

What kind of freedom is that?

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Teresa
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:53 AM

Well, the iraqi selection made me feel bad enough today that I didn't want to discuss it. Leading up to that was a sense of hopelessness, because I knew that selection day was a-coming.

Freightdawg, I appreciate the ideas and hopes you put forward. What land are you talking about in the year two-thousand-and-five? Sure, there's some vestige of it left, but you gotta look real hard, and even then it's kinda elusive.

But nothing like what the Iraqis have to deal with. This just-add-firepower-and-puppet-strings-democracy is a joke. They're gonna have a revolution; a big, honking, scary one that'll make their previous bloodbaths seem like child's play.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Kaleea
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:08 AM

freightdawg---

      "think like an ugly American . . ." ?

               Whassup with that?!

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:10 AM

Poor ignorant rag head Iraquis. What do they know about the situation in the Gulf?
If only they would log on to Mudcat they would learn from us intelligent folkies how stupid, ill informed and gullible they are.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Teresa
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:15 AM

hahahahaha, that caught my funny bone. Perspective is an interesting thing, is it not? :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: mg
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:39 AM

selection day lifted from an Iraqi blog site...go to Andrew Sullivan's web page and follow the trail or I will post the URL tomorrow..
-----
Today we vote, today is a democracy birthday.
The people lines are very long, We heard explosions voice but we vote.
I'm very happy today, long live Iraq, long live love and long live democracy.
I will post more images here.
A suicide explosion in Al-Mansor city, Al-Sader city and in New Baghdad city near election center , but the Iraqis still insistent to vote.
We will crush the terrorists.
The democracy will win.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:23 AM

The Iraqis are completely ill informed about who they are voting for--many of the candidates names weren't even released prior to the voting, for fear of assassination.

But it's the Americans here that are cheerleaders for this sham election that are intentionally ignorant for buying the Bush lies about it, hook, line and sinker.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:32 AM

Poor ignorant things.
Much of the Arab press, including Iran has been taken in as well.
Oh wise Guest. If only they could be all knowing like you.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:08 AM

Let's see.   We just had free election in Afganastan, Iraq, Ukraine, and the Palestinians.   And the people in this forum still don't get it.   In the words of Bob Dylan "something is happening, and you don't know what it is, do you Mr. Jones"

I couldn't have said it any better.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: DougR
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:26 PM

Ever feel like you are talking to a brick wall, Larry K.?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:20 PM

What has Democracy done for me lately?

It gave me a Congress that voted for the Patriot Act - SIGHT UNSEEN.

It gave me the private corporation Diebold to count my vote - or not.

It gave me a President that said he would not be a policeman to the world,
and launched unilateral* war based on a tissue of lies.

Historic pride is great but the truth about today is hard to swallow no matter what side you claim to be on.


......

* opps, lets not forget Poland.

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:39 PM

No, Larry K, we haven't had *free elections* in any of those palces...

In Afganistan, their was a militay occupier (the US). Free elections don't occur when another country decides to hold them in your country. And take Afganistan... If you were to believe that the elctions were free then you'd have to accept the fact that Afgan people elected a bucnh of warlords and Taliban to run their country 'cause, other than Kubul, that's who runns the rest of the country.

In the Ukraine, somewhat different story. One currupt election was overturned by a second corrupt election finacned by whom? Well, me,a US taxpayer. That's who. Yep, millions and millions of US taxpayers money got diverted in the Unkraine. How would you feel if Russia had send John Kerry a couple hundred million bucks and he had won?

Now, who's left. Oh yeah, the Palastinians, who I will admit have dopne a better job than the Ukraine, Afganistam or Iraq. Problem is, they're not a friggin' country because the Bush/Sharon regime say so. It, like Afganistan is an occupied territory. Maybe you'd like to explain again how a territory or country goes about having free elcetions will being occupied by another country's army...

So, now were down to Iraq which I won't go put you thru the same story that lots of folks here have been trying to tell, including myself, but can't seem to be heard over Bush's big PR/Propaganda Circle Jerk... Think "Mission Accomplished" here...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: And It's 1,2,3 What Are They Votin' For?
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:05 PM

Doug R - Would you consider living under martial law, freedom?