BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D

Subject: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:42 AM

I have tried to express MY thoughts for years: here are some folks who do it perhaps a bit better than I.

---------------------------------------------------------
A Free Human Being--

True education is to learn
how to think,
not what to think.
If you know how to think,
if you really have that capacity,
then you are a free human being;
which is the beginning of self-knowledge
ð it is only such a mind
that is a revolutionary mind.
And a revolutionary mind
is a mutating mind
is the religious mind.

J. Krishnamurti
Think on These Things

----------------------------------------------------------


Why then does one want truth? Above all we want to triumph over falsehood and deception. What is most humiliating about custom and convention is that they appear inseparable from ignorance, misinformation, and hypocrisy. To have to accept a whole world of beliefs, forced on us by our environment, without the chance to choose or build our own world of beliefs would mean a thousandfold frustration even if all that is forced on us were based on painstaking research. But soon we find that people lie to us complacently, whether they know the facts or have not bothered to determine them. The power that constrains our freedom is seen to be arbitrary and indifferent, a slothful despotism of surpassing cynicism. Every truth we discover makes this tyranny unsafe and is a blow for freedom, and the more our previous so-called knowledge it affects, the better!"

Walter Kaufmann
Critique of Philosophy and Religion
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Nowhere is the disproportion between
effort and result more aggravating than in
the pursuit of truth: you may plow through documents
or make untold experiments or think and think and think,
forgo food, comfort, and distractions, lie awake
nights and eat your heart out -- and in the end
you know what can be memorized
by any idiot.

What is the alternative? To suffer the tyranny of
arbitrary falsehood and deception. Many truths cease to seem
trite as soon as one views them as triumphs over prejudice,
indifference, and dishonesty. To teach a truth without
giving others some experience of the quest,
the passion, the heartbreak is a crime."


Walter Kaufmann
Critique of Philosophy and Religion

------------------------------------------------------------

Groping among Dry Bones


Our age is retrospective.
It builds the sepulchres of the fathers.
It writes biographies, histories and criticism.
The foregoing generations beheld God and nature
face to face; we, through their eyes.
Why should not we also enjoy
an original relation to the universe?
Why should not we have a poetry and philosophy
of insight and not of tradition?
Why should we grope
among the dry bones of the past?


From the introduction to Emerson's Nature, published in 1836

----------------------------------------------------------

It should be borne in mind,
of course, that there is an inevitable discrepancy
between the truth of the matter and what one thinks,
even about himself.


Henry Miller

-------------------------------------------------------------




Human Being


                         N O T
                  Christian or Jew or
                   Muslim. Not Hindu,
                Buddhist, Sufi, or Zen.


                  Not any religion
             Or cultural system. I am
                not from the East
                or the West, not
             out of the ocean or up
               From the ground, not
             natural or ethereal, not
            composed of elements at all.


                I do not exist,
          Am not an entity in this
             world or the next,
            did not descend from
             Adam and Eve or any
            Origin story. My place is
            the placeless, a trace
               of the traceless.


            Neither body or soul,
          I belong to the beloved,
             have seen the two
             worlds as one and
                that one
             call to and know.


       First, last, outer, inner,
       only that breath breathing


          H U M A N B E I N G.


            Jelaluddin Rumi

_______________________________________________________

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:47 AM

from: http://fobes.net/r00rumorslitemain.html


....."I think I finally grasp that to a very high degree belief is biological.

In very basic and important ways the brain is an organ for belief. It turns ideas and experiences — and it's own interaction with itself — into feelings of realness that can hardly be denied. I think this is what Kant meant when he talked about the illusion of realism as the forming the most basic human response to the world.*


This is easy to grasp. Survival depends on making fast, firm decisions about what's really happening — or what we think is really happening. This allows us to take action. There's no time for uncertainty in life-and-death situations. And let's not forget that life itself is a life-and-death situation. For some people getting positioned for eternal life is just as dire and pressing as running from a lion. This goes back to Becker and "The Denial of Death."


PSYCHOLOGICAL


The brain is built to make belief — but in what? This is where myth, religion, culture and tradition — as transmitters of knowledge — come into the picture. They provide the software for belief. They provide the ideas and experiences the brain uses to generate specific beliefs and behaviors.


In general, the person who takes in Christian ideas and stories will become Christian. What it means to be a Christian — or a devout member of any belief system — is to see things with Christian eyes, think with a Christian brain and feel with a Christian heart. If we really absorb the precepts, we reprogram ourselves. Isn't that the very idea!


The biological brain is the hardware; the ideas, rules and stories are the software. This allows the system to operate in a certain way: Meaning and importance is assigned. Perception is altered. Conclusions and judgments follow. This all seems to be about "the truth" out there in the real world, but to an amazing degree, it's simply a matter of the brain interacting with itself using ideas and information to reach conclusions. And it all feels overwhelming real. As real as true can be.


DIVERSITY


Now we come to the incredible diversity of absolute belief. See the irony? The point of each and every religion is to believe. But each religion says: "You absolutely better not believe what the other guy says." There's nothing in this world that does a better job of promoting certainty — or showing up its weaknesses — than religion. Religion falls on its own sword without any help from philosophers or psychologists … if one will only look at the big picture.


I think we'll have a better understanding of belief if we stop looking at it as right or wrong and start looking at is as biological and psychological.


TWO MORE SIDE ISSUES


I realize there are exceptions to everything I am saying; I am speaking in generalities because I don't know of a better way to cover a huge subject in a brief message.


1. EDUCATION


On the one hand, the more education you get the more likely you are to escape the overwhelming biological belief-making power of the brain. This is not hard to understand. By taking in more ideas you simply have more views and more ways of making sense. Education gives you a broader vista and more choices in regards the ideas you use to form beliefs. It lifts you to a larger view. Education is like upgrading your software.


Some people have the ability to let new knowledge override the certainty-producing biological imperative. Socrates, David Hume, Kant, Schopenhauer, Emerson, William James and Joseph Cambell to name a few.


2. Damage

Psychological damage, on the other hand, inclines people toward more absolute belief and sinks them in certainty. Damage creates fear, uncertainty and wrecks self-esteem; certainty and absolute belief empower people, and it helps them manage fear.

It also erases uncertainty and boosts self-esteem. For the psychologically damaged person, absolute belief is a powerful form of therapy. It's almost a survival issue for such people. And so in regards absolute belief, damage is the opposite of education. It brings us down into a well of certainty.

I don't mean to come across like I know the truth about this. I am just sharing some recent thoughts on the subject."

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:51 AM

I may have more later...but if you read those, you'll have a lot to digest.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:01 PM

In the meantime, I love you, you ole cuss, for the effort.

(hi Bill)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:06 PM

Doubled.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:19 PM

Amen, Brother Bill, Amen!

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM

I have a little note with a quote, gone missing just now when I'm looking for it, from a broadcast interview with Tom Stoppard. His remark was along the lines of

"It's not so much that we are what we eat, but that we are what we write."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:40 PM

BillD,

I have always 'looked up' to you for your kindness, intelligence, thinking, sharp wit, humility and ability to put into words what needs to be said. Ya just done it again. Much more of this and my neck is gonna need a chiropractor. Beautiful.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:39 PM

Leave it to our *Brother* Bill:-)...insightful, beautiful, thought-provoking, etc., etc. I esp. love the Rumi quote.

Here's a bit of fun to go along:

Question: How many existentialists does is take to screw in a light bulb?

Answer: Two. One to screw it in and one to observe how the light bulb itself symbolizes a single incandescent beacon of subjective reality in a netherworld of endless absurdity reaching out toward a cosmos of nothingness.

If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. William Blake

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:00 PM

I enjoyed the read.

There are, it seems to me, two models for tolerance that are active in our current state of public discourse.

One claims a tolerance based upon basic human rights of existence and freedom of thought which does not infringe upon other's rights to do likewise.

The other, more common one (especially here it would seem) is that tolerance is based on the accepted notion that everyone's beliefs (especially the religious) are equally invalid in objective terms. The irony is that this is not tolerance at all. What toerance is needed if, as accepted, all beliefs are equally invalid? And it fails to take into account that...

1. the first model for tolerance makes the second unnecessary, and

2. it is very condescending, and lacks basic understanding of people of faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: freda underhill
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:11 PM

I guess this is the place to say, of all the people i admire on the cat, Bill D you are number one for your brilliant mind, openness, lack of dogma and humanity.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:13 PM

*Brother*?? (thank you all for the kind words...)

"If all men were brothers, would you let one marry your sister?"

             (some comedian..I forget who)


-----------------------------------------------------------------

"The child learns
by believing the adult.
Doubt comes
after belief."


Ludwig Wittgenstein
On Certainty

-----------------------------------------------------

"The world of a man who believes that God created him for a specific purpose, that he has an immortal soul, that there is an afterlife in which his sins will be visited upon him, is radically different from the world of a man who believes in none of these things; and the reasons for action, the moral codes, the political beliefs, the tastes, the personal relationships of the former will deeply and systematically differ from those of the latter."


Isaiah Berlin, The Purpose of Philosophy
(this is important...it does not take either side, it merely notes a crucial distinction that we'd be wise to keep in mind)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

and one that hits ME right in my writing style...

Depth


According to the romantics – and this is one of their principal contributions to understanding in general – what I mean by depth, although they do not discuss it under that name, is inexhaustibility . . .
No matter how long I speak, new chasms open. No matter what I say I always have to leave three dots at the end. Whatever description I give always opens the doors to something further, something even darker, perhaps, but certainly something which is in principle incapable of being reduced to precise, clear, verifiable, objective prose.


Isaiah Berlin, The Roots of Romanticism

------------------------------------------------------------

In regards certainty: "Shall we espouse and endorse it? Or shall we treat it as a weakness of our nature from which we must free ourselves, if we can? I sincerely believe that the latter course is the only one we can follow as reflective men. Objective evidence and certitude are doubtless very fine ideals to play with, but where on this moonlit and dream-visited planet are they found? I live by the practical faith that we must go on experiencing and thinking over our experience, for only thus can our opinions grow more true; but to hold to any of them – I absolutely do not care which – as if it never could be reinterpretable or corrigibile, I believe to be a tremendously mistaken attitude."

                                  William James


________________________________________________________________

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:24 PM

oh, my....freda! ...and others...I sorta welcome comments on the topic, but personal praise feels...ummm...awkward...

I didn't write any of the pithy comments I quoted, I was just trying to present some perspective...and, of course, it all shows MY prejudiced view of what perspective should be..*wry smile*

but it is nice that some are enjoying the ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:09 PM

That William James hit it right between the eyeballs, time and time again,.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Teresa
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:29 PM

"But I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in the mysterious universe without having any purpose,
which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn't frighten me."
--Richard Feynman

Thank you, Bill. I always enjoy seeing a well-thought-out discussion.   :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:52 PM

You did good, Bill: A lot of wonderful thoughts here to ponder. And what a pleasure to (at least so far) see a thread where someone is seriously expressing their beliefs without someone else responding in terms of body parts. :-)

That's to come, I imagine..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:55 PM

Man, this thread sure is kind of self-serving.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Padre
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:32 PM

MG - How is it self-serving for Bill to present us with an opportunity to THINK?

Padre

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:34 PM

MG-- what posts at Mudcat AREN'T??????????????

Yer slippin' man.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:53 PM

Yeo done hurt my head, Bill.... But in a good way...

Good on you, my friend...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Pogo
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:57 PM

Ahh...very thought-provoking BillD. I see many gems of wisdom among your posts that I will put away carefully for pondering. Thanks for sharing.

Jerry oh I hope it stays that way in at least ONE thread pertaining to personal beliefs *sigh* we'll see

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:11 PM

Thanks, Teresa....Feynman thought about all this as hard and rigorously as anyone, yet didn't try to insult anyone as he noted HIS take on it all.

(self-serving, Martin? I guess so...I like my 'self' to be served interesting stuff to ponder that doesn't require any particular doctrine.)...like WYSIWYG says.....

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:14 PM

Some very good stuff there, Bill. I've gotta go to Monday night song circle. Will hopefully get back to your thought-provoking quotes later.

I really like the first one from Krishnamurti - not what to think, but how to think - Amen!

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: harpgirl
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:20 PM

When you wish something to happen, choose the acts which will lead you there.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:49 PM

Bill-
That perspective stuff is going to get you in trouble some day.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:33 PM

Thanks Bill. Good stuff.

Sometimes its hard to be me but when I read your posts above I know that the journey has been worth it. I am also grateful to my parents for leading me in the right direction.

The most relevant for me today is, "education is like upgrading your software." I'm sure I'll use this quite often.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:59 AM

It is all biological.

It may seem obvious but it gets missed in the religious repeatition of the truth, be it Mohammad the one true prophet or Jesus Christ who eventually failed in court. Yet many are content to grope the dry bones of the past.

Humanity as a whole has a compound eye to look at issues and phenomena. Journalism used to be the lens for public sentiment to be focused. The founding fathers recognized this. One of their own was Benjamin Franklin who was a yellow journalist. Now we have a wealthy demographic media that is fed stories direct from Central Command.

It seems our compound eye has a rather large blind spot.
As a result the big lie and the ugly truth are blurred on every high definition screen in America.

Fixing the vote count aside, running for office was a bit like the battle to be the alpha male. However once the victor is decided, the role of the battling male king is then to become just and protect the weaker members so that others may someday have their moment in the sun.

As humans we have the capacity to imagine and articulate justice.
When the victor "king" ignores the duty of justice and fails to protect all except the closest members of the ruling/waring council, revolution begins to forment.

The folk song is the educational glue of all such revolutions.

These lessons are not lost to rulers and war makers be they fundamentalist Islamic laws that condemn all folk singing under penalty of law or a right wing corporation like Clear Channel that will attempt to destroy any songs or song makers that voice even the slightest dissent.

We are here. Our duty is clear. The distractions are many and the rewards are few. The truth seen through the uncorrupted compound eye of our singers and artists is still an incredibly powerful tool to teach others how to think and not what to think.

How you wish to do it is your choice. I believe one of the greatest folk singers of our time made a career by making fun of folk singers...

"We are the Folk Song Army
every one of us cares
we are all against war and injustice
unlike the rest of those squares"
Tom Learher.

It goes to show how some of my best new songs might even be forged from the PMs I got from some of the wonderful Christians who claim that they don't believe we are all tramps and crack addicts.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:02 AM

Dick..."that perspective stuff" has consumed a lot of my life..*grin*

I kinda envy those who just say "Oh, I like THIS answer...I'll just believe it from now on, and avoid all that tedious thinking and juggling."

There is a cartoon strip called "Hagar the Horrible", about a silly Viking type with very modern problems. One Sunday saw him visiting the local wizard, Dr. Zook, who had a huge stone ring leaning against the wall, like that 'money' on Yap Island.

"What's this?", asks Hagar.
"That's my new scientific measuring device." replys Dr. Zook, "Step in!"
....so Hagar squirms into the center of the stone ring....

"More...hunch down...squeeze tighter..." Zook says, as Hagar tries to cram himself into the tight space. Finally, he is in, awkwardly peering out at the pleased wizard.

"There!", says Dr. Zook with authority, "You are exactly 5 feet tall!"

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:10 AM

I just reminded myself of one I posted 5 years ago....I think I'll stick it in on this thread:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Charlie Brown is walking along when he comes to Lucy, kneeling and looking at something on the sidewalk...

"What are you doing , Lucy?"

"Charlie Brown--see this big black bug? Do you know why it's so much bigger than the others? Because it's the QUEEN!"..........so Charlie gets down and peers closely...

"Lucy, that's not a bug...that's a black jelly bean!"

Lucy gives him this LOOK and bends to scrutinize the bug again..."Why, so it is!...I wonder how a jelly bean ever got to be queen!"

...I have met SO many Lucys in my time...they will just NOT have their favorite theories disputed.(Anthropologists who are SURE they have found the missing link are a prime example)
------------------------------------------------------------------

and so are those who are sure there IS no need for a link

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:28 AM

A very fine compilation of thoughts and quotes. The biological basis for the development of belief and religion and the need for certainty is a very interesting but also delicate topic.

I smiled when I saw who liked which quote (thinker) for that choice tells a lot about the poster. My choice is Wittgenstein, doubt comes after belief, and of course Miller, there is an inevitable discrepancy between the truth of the matter and what one thinks, even about himself.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST,jim tailor
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:33 AM

I kinda envy those who just say "Oh, I like THIS answer...I'll just believe it from now on, and avoid all that tedious thinking and juggling."

And I kinda envy those that are so cock-sure that this defines people of faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST,~S~
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 08:27 AM

In response to the thread title-- what I am thinking in response to them is that the fragile peace over "prayer" threads is strained to the limit whenever there is a run of faith-bashing threads. Georgiansilver's recent thread is one example of how hard it is to respect the wishes of the anti-religionists and keep the muzzle on. When it's clear others are wearing no restraints at all, it's galling to have one's own freedom of speech constantly harped at and openly, sometimes intentionally intimidated. If one REALLY wants freedom, one does well to look to others' as well.

There are posts here every day that are frankly slanted by atheism, paganism, and every philosophy under the sun (including hodgepodges of personal belief systems cobbled together from one or more cults that have actually harmed people). Some of them read as attempts at persuasion-- their own form of proselytization. They happen to be what passes for PC proselytization in this group of people. You don't see the Christians condemning it the way our own personal reflections have been. If one REALLY wants tolerance, one does well to tolerate others as well.

IMO this forum suffers not so much from nastiness, as infantile hypocrisy.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 08:29 AM

I don't think that was an attempt to define the creation or construction of genuine faith; but it does describe a pattern of electing some information as reliable and constant in order to relieve the pain of too much information in unresolved state, flying around. Trying to reconcile some of the claims of some proselytizers (especially those who are inclined to literal interpretation) with other noises and one's own sense of how things are can be very confusing.

However, I think what you represent is a much more thoughtful and deliberate process.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST,jim tailor
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 10:50 AM

I've observed the same phenomenon here, ~S~. And I think that, rather than...

IMO this forum suffers not so much from nastiness, as infantile hypocrisy.

I think the forum suffers from a mistaken notion of "neutrality" where issues of faith are concerned. Those that don't disapprove of the...

posts here every day that are frankly slanted by atheism, paganism, and every philosophy under the sun (including hodgepodges of personal belief systems cobbled together from one or more cults that have actually harmed people). Some of them read as attempts at persuasion-- their own form of proselytization.

...think of themselves in some sort of "neutral" terms. Seems that only one way of faith is the only thing percieved as non-neutral -- therefore, by that kind of default setting, everything offered by that group, and that group alone, is seen as proselytizing.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST,~S~ (WYSIWYG abbr.)
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 11:31 AM

Yeah, that too, Jim, and WELL SAID.

~Susan

Sometimes I feel like a nit.... sometimes I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 11:37 AM

There are posts here every day that are frankly slanted by atheism, paganism, and every philosophy under the sun (including hodgepodges of personal belief systems cobbled together from one or more cults that have actually harmed people).

"Slanted" implies a disproportionate amount of influence, in a pejorative manner, being utilized in ongoing discussions. I don't think that's the case. You're simply finding yourself in a mix of people who (like myself) were compelled by our parents or our society to keep a lid on it for years while the christians ran things and presumed that everyone else agreed with them. (Rather like all of the years in which non-smokers had to suffer the pollution of smokers lighting up anywhere they pleased, disgregarding protests, or worse, suppressing all protest.) It is past time for you to realize that this is a forum in which mainstream American christianity doesn't have a stranglehold and doesn't call the shots. As cults go, christianity is one that has done a great deal of harm to a huge number of people over the last 20 centuries, so I wouldn't choose that as a position defend (if I were in your shoes, at any rate).

What Jim illustrated above might be called in the vernacular the "fish-can't-see-the-water-it-swims-in" syndrome. It's what Derrida referred to as "the center." If you're in that place where you can assume that everything you know regarding your culture and religion is identical to everyone else's experiences, then you're part of the Hegemony that others object to. And because you're there, you can't see that you're there. One needs to step away from that position ("walk a mile in other's shoes. . .") to be able to see the water for what it is. You're experiencing what postmodern scholars consider the fringes (the colonized) "writing back to the Center."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:01 PM

I submit that those of you who make assertions about Jesus and God get the same sort of irritated reception as might be tendered to a 12-year-old busy negotiating on behalf of her invisible playmates. The deal might be acceptable but the rationale doesn't make sense.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:20 PM

And Amos, I submit that your decision to see people that way says just about all there is to say about your worth on that subject. No WONDER I find you so offensive!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST,jim tailor
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:22 PM

And I would submit to you that SRS just provided very good insight as to why you feel the need to characterize those of faith as "12 year olds" so that your fragile view of adulthood as "faith-free" isn't threatened.

I'M KIDDING!!!!

sort of.

Groove on, friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:37 PM

SRS, "Slanted" implies a disproportionate amount of influence, in a pejorative manner, being utilized in ongoing discussions. I don't think that's the case. You're simply finding yourself in a mix of people who (like myself) were compelled by our parents or our society to keep a lid on it for years while the christians ran things and presumed that everyone else agreed with them.

That's true of SOME people, but it's true of others that they feel that having been raised that way gives them reason or excuse to deliberately attack. It is disproportionate, it is pejorative, it is deliberate. THAT's what I was referring to. I'm not the least confused about it and I don't need you to reinterpret it for me.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:51 PM

Susan:

I think even you will see that your last post as written makes little sense.

I said invisible, not non-existant. And it was an analogy -- I wasn't accusing you of being a 12 year old or acting like one; I said you get a reception similar to what a 12 year old might get IF he/she were...

But feel free to have a huff about it--your call. I'm in a minority here, so I'll just shuffle down to the back of the bus! !:D

A

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 01:06 PM

Amos, you patronizing son of a bitch. "Feel free"-- as if I need your OK about it. And I don't care if you mean it as an analogy-- you've described your persistent attempt to de-evangelize me quite clearly. It's a lot more than a "huff."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST,jim tailor
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:36 PM

Well, here's MY THINKING ABOUT RECENT THREADS (as stolen from the Simpsons -- who in my estimation ROCK compared to Bill D's hoity-toitiness (that is how you spell it isn't it? "hoity-toitiness?)...

Homer: Marge? Since I'm not talking to Lisa, would you please ask her to pass me the syrup?

Marge: Dear, please pass your father the syrup, Lisa.

Lisa: Bart, tell Dad I will only pass the syrup if it won't be used on any meat product.

Bart: You dunkin' your sausages in that syrup homeboy?

Homer: Marge, tell Bart I just want to drink a nice glass of syrup like I do every morning.

Marge: Tell him yourself, you're ignoring Lisa, not Bart.

Homer: Bart, thank your mother for pointing that out.

Marge: Homer, you're not not-talking to me and secondly I heard what you said.

Homer: Lisa, tell your mother to get off my case.

Bart: Uhhh, dad, Lisa's the one you're not talking to.

Homer: Bart, go to your room.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:40 PM

I'd spell it "hoity-tuition" but I wouldn't ascribe it to BillD.

~Susan

Vile thing, you make my heart stink.
You make everything... doodie.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:44 PM

De-evangelize????? I don't even know what that means!!

Evangelize:

reach the gospel (to)
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn


convert to Christianity; "The missionaries evangelized the Pacific Islanders"
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

Yeah, I would definitely prefer you not use this forum to do these things, if that is what you mean.

Aside from that, break a leg.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: GUEST,jim tailor
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:48 PM

It was a joke -- on my lack of erudition -- not on Bill D's offerings which I had already allowed as how I liked (above).

Bill, I don't know you from Adam (no religious implication intended). I'm sure that you are not hoity-toity. Did I mention that I don't know you? ...or your hoity-toity level.

Maybe you are hoity-toity. .....hey.....just a doggone....

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:53 PM

Man, Amos: That is the most dismissive, insulting comment I've heard in here in a long time... comparing people who have faith in God and Christ to 12 year old children and their imaginary playmates. You managed to out insult Martin Gibson without obscenities. That is really hurtful. Makes me wonder why I should even express my thoughts on this forum.

I would have thought better from you.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:00 PM

Amos, I was referring to your persistent attempts to persuade me out of my faith, in the same way you post your certainty of how things "are" in so many of your posts in this forum. Your effort to "teach" me how to see, how to think in place of my faith. Your persistent effort to persuade me that what I consider the Good News is actually Bad News. I'm not talking about the times you stated things in terms of your own personal view, with some sense of responsibility that they were, simply, your views.

I am talking about your effort to persuade. If you wanted to be completely honest, you would admit that you did quite a bit of it, and with considerable force. You continue trying to "educate" us in this forum in a similarly expert fashion. You insist on yourself as an arbiter of others' sense-- you just did it in a post directed to me, above, on top of your analogy about 12 year olds. I hate to break it to you, but your lack of the ability to know what someone else means, without demanding they defend their thoughts and their semantic choices, disqualifies you for that role.

But hey, that's just my view.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: KathWestra
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:16 PM

And there goes another good thread down the trail of "he said, she said" and name-calling. Too bad. I loved Bill's collection of thought-provoking quotes. Thanks, Bill, and I'm sorry it came to this.
Kathy

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:25 PM

If it swims, Alf's got it!

(sign outside fish shop)

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:39 PM

my father was a very anti religious athiest who had been badly hurt by "religious" people. He was strongly opposed to hypocrisy, humbug and the "holier than thou" attitudes.

I have seen "holier than thou" attitudes transferred around to be "more rational than thou", "more humanistic than thou", "more politically aware than thou" and "more fashionable than thou".

that's why i admire Bill's approach on this forum - he analyses, maybe makes some wry comments occasionally, but presents his thoughts without any hidden emotional agenda.

a determinedly non religious person cannot ever understand what motivates a religious person, and if they have a poor view of religion will see the religious person in terms of their own poor view.How objective is that?

Just as in political life, people have a range of views, motives and approaches, so in the spectrum of religious/spiritual beliefs, people have a range of not only views, motives and approaches - but experiences.

Using your own philosophy to put someone else down is not an act of philosophical truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:51 PM

Susan inserted and entirely self-serving defensive clunker into this thread with her first contribution. Don't jump all over Amos or me for trying to see why it had anything to do with what Bill and others were talking about. Amos' analogy to a 12-year-old with an imaginary friend was not inappropriate, because to those who don't share ~S~'s hard-and-fast christian world view, there is a level of acceptance of the metaphysical that is akin to having an invisible friend. THIS By insisting that what Amos said was meant to offend, you bring the focus back to yourself and your spirituality, and your dismissal of any criticism of it. You have illustrated perfectly why those who don't share in christian views aren't willing to sit on their hands and let you rant on about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:57 PM

I've tried twice to get this to post correctly. This is the correct version of what I was trying to say.

---

Susan inserted and entirely self-serving defensive clunker into this thread with her first contribution. Don't jump all over Amos or me for trying to see why it had anything to do with what Bill and others were talking about. Amos' analogy to a 12-year-old with an imaginary friend was not inappropriate, because to those who don't share ~S~'s hard-and-fast christian world view, there is a level of acceptance of the metaphysical that is akin to having an invisible friend. THIS IS WHAT I MEANT ABOUT WRITING BACK TO THE CENTER. By your insisting that what Amos said was meant to offend, you bring the focus back to yourself and your spirituality, and to your dismissal of any criticism of it. You have illustrated perfectly why those who don't share in christian views aren't willing to sit on their hands and let you rant on about it.

SRS

On this topic perhaps we should agree to disagree, have Joe Clone remove the several previous contributions, and move forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:00 PM

SRS - I did not read your previous post. I am not a Christian and do not subscribe to any religious dogma. my comments apply to any people with any view. I think that when other people's motives are defined by a third party, its reasonable to point out that we all view the world through our own spectrum of held beliefs.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:01 PM

I don't think Amos meant to offend with the "12 year-old" analogy. I just thought he was condescending. Try as I might, I can't get any other read on it.

I think it was a case of Amos being totally transparent. A slip if you will. I don't think you can read his post without concluding that the parallel, "believer=imature", was intentional. At least I can't.

I'm not that offended by it, but then, when in Rome you are bound to, you know, find some REALLY good pasta. Even more if you visit further north in Italy.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:05 PM

The thread title is "Thinking about recent threads ". I responded to it. People don't like it, too bad. I'm also not the only person who found Amos' post offensive. SRS, sorry, you have not been around long wenough to know much of what you are talking about in this thread.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:09 PM

Not around where long enough? The planet, graduate school, or the Mudcat? These were Bill's musings to start with, and it was interesting when that was the extent of what was posted here.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:11 PM

Jerry and Susan:

I am sorry for any upset my post caused. I think you both know I do not post with any intention to harm. That said, however, I repeat that you have taken what I said and confused it with some other statement, perhaps more insulting, from some other source at some other time.

What I said, and I think it is true, is that the responses you get when you proselytize are similar to the young lady in my imaginary example. And for similar reasons.

It has nothing to do with the reality of your faith, but rather with the gap between your reality and that into which you are communicating -- mine, for example. Maybe the fact that this is too true accounts for the scope of your unexpected reaction.

I admire you both in spite of my metaphysical differences of opinion.   

A

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:15 PM

meanwhile, back at the ranch..

In regards certainty: "Shall we espouse and endorse it? Or shall we treat it as a weakness of our nature from which we must free ourselves, if we can? I sincerely believe that the latter course is the only one we can follow as reflective men. Objective evidence and certitude are doubtless very fine ideals to play with, but where on this moonlit and dream-visited planet are they found? I live by the practical faith that we must go on experiencing and thinking over our experience, for only thus can our opinions grow more true; but to hold to any of them – I absolutely do not care which – as if it never could be reinterpretable or corrigibile, I believe to be a tremendously mistaken attitude."

                                  William James

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:18 PM

We can admire certain ideas, thoughts, realisations, such as the one above, or, "do unto others as you would be done by". It's a hell of a lot harder to apply them to our lives.

and that is the difference between wisdom and dogma.

we are our own advertisement, whether we see it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:50 PM

~~~~~~~~~..my....I have slow ISP problems for ½ day, and just look what I find.

let me say this: I was married before, to a nice lady who also carried a lot of painful baggage from earlier relationships. She had one real problem, that eventually led to too many ill feelings....

When anyone disagreed with her, or someone said something that she imagined was critical, she almost always took it personally, and in the most negative way possible, usually including a remark of the "you think that I'm dumb" or "you don't really care" type. I seemed to be unable to persuade her that it might be better to ASK me what I meant by my remark, rather than telling me it was obvious what I thought and how I felt. Her 'ability' to read my mind and assume the worst made every argument escalate into arguing about how to argue, and I seldom won one.

Here we have a bunch of people, all of whom I enjoy and respect individually, and mostly get along with just fine, seemingly doing a similar trick of deciding that another's post was meant offensively and that they can easily discern the poster's true colors...etc...and all this without even eye contact or tone of voice to aid in the analysis!

Folks...we have LOTS of time here. We don't have to settle every confusion or dispute before we can have supper or go to bed....we can compare notes, use *Max's Wonderful Private Messages* (usually) to ask "what did you mean by that?...I was kinda upset by the tone"

It does "all depend on whose ox is being gored", doesn't it?...I often nag Amos and Little Hawk about stuff THEY believe that I think needs more "maybe" in the explication, but I seldom seriously offend them ...I hope...and Amos has his list of stuff that HE considers flights of fancy, and Little Hawk makes more claims than anyone, but preaches no particular Theology, so he can't be so easily miffed...until you claim he DIDN'T see a saucer...*grin*....

I may write some comments to various individuals by PM...after I sort out what I think...(just keep repeating to yourself, Bill...it IS an 'open forum'..it IS an open forum)

EVERY ONE of us has some idea or attitude that doesn't set well with some of the other's, and if we all met RT, like at the Getaway, we'd probably either decide we liked each other...or...just walk away and AVOID the discussion. It really IS possible to do something similar here...(he says, knowing that HE gets into some serious debates with...oh, you-know-who...and whatisname, too..)


and, Jim Tailor....I don't think I'm 'hoity-toity'...I think I'm hoi-poloi. and I like a hurdy-gurdy...

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:58 PM

Do you know why today is called the "present?" It is a gift.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:05 PM

I'm not calling today, "the present". I'm referring to it by its religious name...

Groundhog Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Teresa
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:06 PM

Thank you, lovingkat. :)

And thank you, Bill. The thread can be found and picked up again. :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:16 PM

yep, Teresa, it shore can...I'm in charge here, ain't I?,,,well....ain't I?

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Teresa
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:18 PM

:) Er, benign dictatorship? ;) :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:21 PM

just to start us up again....here's one to ponder:

Tact : The ability to tell someone to go to hell and have them look forward to the trip.

and just for fun...I have no idea what it means:

"In shallow waters, shrimps make fools of dragons."   - Chinese Proverb

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:26 PM

My point is not that I can't tolerate diverse views, it's that there are people here of every stripe who proselytize, some of them quite openly, and that it's only "Christian" "proselytizing" which is derided when it isn't even HAPPENING. When one of the worst of these folks gave me such a clear example of this, I jumped on it. If people want to get hysterical about that, that's up to them.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Teresa
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:29 PM

What can't be accomplished by one blustering, powerful being can be accomplished by many less-powerful ones?

Just a guess. :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:34 PM

Folks, take some deep breaths, willya?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 06:15 PM

"I'm in charge here, ain't I?,,,well....ain't I?"

A hopeful sheepdog faced by a flock of goats...
....................

At least when this thread descended into discord, it did so in a reasonably well-mannered way, with no body parts being thrown around.
...............

I think there is a distinction between proselytising, on the one hand, and explaining where we stand, and arguing in support of it, on the other. I think it's to do with the way the latter does not exclude the possibility that the other side might be able to thrown some new light on our own beliefs. I think that is always a good thing.
.................
I was interested to see that Wolgang picked out the same quote that I would have, from Wittgenstein - "The child learns by believing the adult. Doubt comes after belief."

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 06:25 PM

MY GOD, MICK!!!!!!!! I'M DYIN' HERE!!!!!!!!!!

CAN WE EXHALE YET???!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 06:30 PM

"A hopeful sheepdog faced by a flock of goats..."

A smart-alec Border Collie who 'thinks' he can even harass a bunch of goats into doing almost what he wants...

and yeah, Kevin...a good distinction....now we can argue over where the line should be drawn. But it is certainly true that we never learn the relevance of our own beliefs without at least seeing how others see them...and hopefully, why they see things differently. If you cannot clearly argue the opposite viewpoint, you cannot truly defend your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 06:41 PM

I'm not calling today, "the present". I'm referring to it by its religious name (Jim Tailor)

Are you sure you have understood katlaughing?
Past, present, future.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 06:45 PM

wow. I obviously need to make my humor more obvious.

...or funny. (that might work too)

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 06:58 PM

Exactly, Kevin and Bill. I am a Roman Catholic Christian with strong overtones of paganism strewn throughout my beliefs. I know full well who, in this forum, finds Christians to be flawed. And most of them are close friends of mine (3D or Virtual). But most of them never ridicule me for my beliefs, rather they state why they have theirs. And that is a very good recipe for tolerance. It is why we can get along. There are others here who feel the need to wear it on their sleeve, whether it is religious or secular, and they end up in these messes.

Faith, my friends, is not the same as religious fervor. Living a faith filled life is a peaceful journey, even in a storm. It cannot be argued, as it is personal. Those that are faithful, IMO, feel no need to evangelize. Rather they let their way be their testament. And they do not count proselytization as the mark of their success.

So ..... I repeat ...... breathe.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:05 PM

If you cannot clearly argue the opposite viewpoint, you cannot truly defend your own.

I'm posting that in the Gallery of Mudcat Quotations

That's been identified as a key technique for finding a way forward in intractable conflicts, notably that in the Holy Land. Unfortunately people find it very hard to actually adopt it. Especially the very people who most badly need to adopt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:14 PM

Jim:

I thought it was very funny!!!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:29 PM

...cults that have actually harmed people...

Like Christians, perhaps, ~Susie?

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 08:58 PM

Jim, I thought it was funny.

I just now read this thread, and as usual, I see everyone's point. But I do have opionions of people I've read over time, and most seem to follow my predictions of their behavior and words.

***Watch Bill squirm...Bill, your gentlemanly conduct always shines through. Much like Rick Fielding's.***

Funny how we all have a quote which stands out. For me, it hit me smack between the eyes, and of course, it tells A LOT about me, and could be a thread in itself. (But frankly, I don't think anyone else would be interested in it.)

According to the romantics – and this is one of their principal contributions to understanding in general – what I mean by depth, although they do not discuss it under that name, is inexhaustibility . . .
No matter how long I speak, new chasms open. No matter what I say I always have to leave three dots at the end. Whatever description I give always opens the doors to something further, something even darker, perhaps, but certainly something which is in principle incapable of being reduced to precise, clear, verifiable, objective prose.

That's me! Openendedness and lots of ...

****************************************************

RE: analogies

I learned in teaching not to use them in my speech. When speaking to a diverse group, the chances of misunderstandings were just too great. (the benefit/risk ratio was just too low)

I also learned when working in research labs and constantly communicating ideas that few people thought like I did. I found two.      One was a retired guy (brought back as a consultant) that "thought out loud" as he was going through a process. Another was a guy from Thailand that thought "wholistically" rather than "sequentially" when using equations.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 09:09 PM

awww, Mary....I will indeed squirm, for being compared in any way to Rick is about as high a compliment as I can imagine in here. I often ask myself before I post how Rick might approach it.

And, yeah, you got one of my favorite quotations, too....there is never an end to the inquiry, the musings, the discovery of new ways to see, new ways to think....and new ways to ASK. Maybe that's why there's always the dots...

(I'm honored, Kevin...*smile*)....I kinda liked it myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 09:18 PM

Have you all taken down your Christmas lights yet?

Or are you waiting like my neighbor until June?

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Teresa
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 09:37 PM

Martin, I figured a long time ago ... why not leave 'em up year-round, then you don't have to mess with puttin' 'em up or taking them down. :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 11:05 PM

"Story-telling is natural -- we all do it in everyday life, and we all like to be told stories. I suppose by contrast philosophy is counter-natural. Philosophy involves us in the critical analysis of our beliefs, and of the presuppositions of our beliefs, and it's a very striking fact that most people neither like doing this nor like having it done for them."

Brian Magee

--------------------------------------------------------------------

and here is a thought I'm not sure about. It can be very useful to have a poetic, metaphorical idea to wrestle with, trying to decide whether you agree with its thrust, or simply like the comforting tone of the language....This by theologian Paul Tillich, and I confess I can't see all the implications in it.

"Grace strikes us when we are in great pain and restlessness. It strikes us when we walk through the dark valley of meaningless and empty life. It strikes us when we feel that our separation is deeper than usual, because we have violated another life, a life which we loved, or from which we are estranged. It strikes us when our disgust for our own being, our indifference, our weakness, our hostility, and our lack of direction and composure have become intolerable to us. It strikes us when, year after year, the longed-for perfection of life does not appear, when the old compulsions reign within us as they have for decades, when despair destroys all joy and courage. Sometimes at that moment a wave of light breaks into our darkness, and it is as though a voice were saying, "You are accepted. You are accepted, accepted by that which is greater than you, and the name of which you do not know. Do not ask for the name now; perhaps you will find it later. Do not try to do anything now; perhaps later you will do much. Do not seek for anything; do not perform anything; do not intend anything. Simply accept the fact that you are accepted." In that moment . . . reconciliation bridges the gulf of estrangement. And nothing is demanded of this experience, no religious or moral or intellectual presupposition, nothing but acceptance."


Paul Tillich

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:44 AM

Jim,

it's only me who didn't get it. Sorry. No need to adapt your level of humour. Maybe I just was overly glad that I had understood katlaughing's post.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D
From: Amos
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:16 PM

Bill:

I love that Magee quote; Tillich's assumptions are clangorous and somewhat condescending in their own right.\

A