BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue

Subject: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 04:45 AM

Well, that was going to say "issues", but the letter limit got me.

My local labour party 'phoned me to canvass last night. Amongst other things they asked me what I thought the single most important issue in the election was. I opted for the health service. I might have gone for the ability of the people to trust their elected representatives to tell the truth, or the defence of labour against organised capital.

What's the general view? Single most important issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 04:59 AM

Justice, but maybe that's a concept rather than an issue.

Economic justice? Helping people to escape poverty. Poverty is so predictive of health, education and lots of other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:08 AM

Opting out of the common fisheries policy while there are still a few fishing villages left alive, especially up here in Scotland. That and honesty about taxation, stop hiding it away in indirect forms, and put up income tax, you know the one, it's what people only pay when they're earning. Why should unemployed people and people on fixed incomes like pensioners pay tax? Up here you need a car if you're going to work, and you need to put fuel in that car to attend work or even worse an interview, why should it be so expensive to seek or to hold down work? I paid 92 cents per litre for diesel in the republic of Ireland last week, that's about 54 pence, somethings wrong somewhere when we pay 83 pence here!
I could go on!!!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:46 AM

I agree that taxation on expenditure is regressive in nature, and can therefore mainly be justified only as a disincentive to a form of expenditure.

However, if you concentrate solely on income taxation, there will need to be some form of capital taxation too, and then liquidity issues arise.

Fishing has to reduce, or there will soon be no fish left (big in the papers last week) - the obvious alternative being the general reduction in population - but the CFP is also a price stabilitation regime, I think, so better to reform it than remove it. Price stabilisation regimes need to be very carefully thought through or they result in wasteful production for subsidy followed by destruction of the product - like the grain mountain and the wine lake.

IMHO travel costs should be capable of being offset against income not only in relation to business travel as such but also to get to work and seek work -up to limits (by fuel efficiency, pollution etc) and up to certain limits. My late wife and I used to drive 40 miles each in opposite directions to work, and it is better for mankind to reduce such waste and damage.

But can you really say any of these are the single most important issue?

Maybe Malthus had it right, and a few good infantry-intensive wars, maybe halving the world population, would solve quite a few problems at a stroke? How about another American civil war (although I don't know how we might start it)? How about a new Black Death (perhaps someone beat me to the idea and designed Aids for the purpose already, but if they want to solve world problems they released it in the wrong place...)

But seriously folks...

What about immigration? I know of a trade union branch espousing the absolute right of all to immigrate to England for political or economic or any other purpose - but that can't be sensible. I know of others who say "no deprivation of liberty without fair and public trial" - but again some executive power is in practice essential, and the real issue is how to ensure it is properly limited.

How about legal aid? No right is of value unless it can be enforced, and if only the rich can afford lawyers only the rich have effective rights.

What about unions - the courts have just held that the right to join a union as such is a right protected by Human Rights law - but that rights negotiated by a union are not, the consequence being that the ability of labour to organise can be (and is being) reduced to a paper moon, an illusion with no real substance (with the consequence being that organised capital can and will then deprive workers of the fruits of their labour)? France has started on the road back to wage slavery...

What about the famous whore of the middle classes - Laura Norder? If property is legitimate (a distinct from property being theft) then if the rule of law is not enforced society wholly breaks down. But how do we ensure that the law is neutral between members of society, and not the weapon of one sector of society against another.

Really must go and do something useful now....

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: EagleWing
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 06:13 AM

Can we have the Labour Party back? 'Cause I'm sick of having to choose between two Tory parties!

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 07:06 AM

Definitely the Iraq War, as this should have made clear to every one the undemocratic nature of our political system.
The public was and still is being lied to and manipulated by this government in the cause of building a place in history for Tony Blair.

He has succeeded in that cause, but probably not with the result he intended.

The publics' trust in politicians is rightly at an all time low...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: DougR
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 12:09 PM

Ake: just curious, have you ever trusted a politician?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 12:17 PM

Our county council election are most likly to be on the same day as the general election. An important issue for me (in the context of Mudcat) is what will I change my mudcat name too if I dont get
re-elected. Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 03:54 PM

Surely you could be "Excllr" - to be pronounced "Excelsior". Meaning "I will do better..."

At least with local elections it's often possible to split your vote, and vote for one candidate of a party and against the others.

I don't much like the idea of a Presidential election, but I wish there was a way people could vote to kick Blair out, while ensuring that we wouldn't have a Tory government (I mean an official Tory government). I'm not sure what the reverse of a "landslide" is, but whatever it is, on a personal vote that's what I'd expect Blair to be given.

It beats me why the Tories haven't twigged the fact that they can't outflank New Labour on the right without coming across as some kind of transatlantic crazies. Go back to the more traditional pre-Thatcherite Toryism, and they'd be neatly placed to the Left of New Labour, and they could start to come back to life.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 04:55 PM

Doug....Not since I learned to piss standing up....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:04 PM

Akenaten suggests the Iraq war is the single most significant issue, but he doesnt indicate which way that should make me vote. Guidance, please? Veritas?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:28 PM

Surely the implication would be that that was entirely up to you, greg. Of course on that issueIraq there's no significant difference between the official Labour and Tort line, so it shouldn't be much of a factor for anyone who was trying to choose between those two parties.

Though in fact, with the electoral system we've got, though it's always spoken of as "choosing between parties", it's actually a matter of choosing between candidates, who could well in any particular case be totally at odds with their party; and for the large majority of us, there is little prospect of the sitting candidate being unseated anyway.

It's really all smoke and mirrors.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:33 PM

That's what I meant,really. McGrath. As there's no particular difference between the likely contenders. what does Akenaten mean by saying Iraq is the most significant election issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:34 PM

Greg...I wouln't presume to offer guidance,you have your own ideas on politics and I dont see much wrong with them.

I wont be voting,on the principle that it only encourages the bastards,but I hope people give some sort of mandate to the tree huggin environmentalists.

The environmentalist group are gaining strength all the time ,as the established parties become more unpopular.
Issues like mass housing development for the rich , wind farms which are an eyesore and uneconomical, inshore water pollution in the West of Scotland, ect ect, are driven by huge profits for a few at the expense of the visual and social amenity of the indigenous population.

So Greg although I woundn't offer guidance, I know you love the West Coasters. So let your conscience be your guide and vote green...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:42 PM

Alas, Ake. I have no choice. I always vote the same as my father, grandfather, great-grandfather(and possibly further back than that). As Cornish methodists, which party will be ovious. And, coincidentally, they have taken a reasonbly robust anti-Iraq war line. Which does not at all please my Iraqi musician friends, who tend to be rather gungho on these matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 04:02 AM

Mcgrath that is pure brilliance thank you. Mind you I was thinking about starting a thread about a new name and I think you v'e cracked it already!. The second point you make I couldn't possibly comment on. cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 04:48 AM

I guess 30 or 40 million people can vote. One vote, cast or denighed, wont make any difference, nor should it, we all count for one and none for more than one.

Those who join and work within parties have more influence and that is part of the democratic process - seeking to create party policy and encourage others to vote for those policies.

The request, can we have our Labour Party back is a sound one. Party Conference used to make policy from the bits and pieces send from branch and constitueny meetings that too was part of the democratic process. It doesn't happen much now because Tony changed things.

The real problem for all parties is that almost nobody joins them, all most nobody goes to the meetings and almost nobody campaigns between or during elections.

If people really want to change the way things are run - join any party, you will will be welcomed by the few. You can become an officer or even a councillor or maybe an MP.

The major issue remains helping people to escape poverty. Poverty is so predictive of health, education and lots of other things.

Politics has to be for the long game. We need to get the environment at the centre of all policies but I bet we wont.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 08:19 PM

1. All politicians lie to us, not just Tony.
2. No politician ever intends to keep any promise.
3. Politicians don't give a shit about the poor. They live elsewhere.
4. No political party will ever give us what we need.

Less politics, and more government. That's it........simple.

Vote for your constituency's independent candidate, and send a man to parliament, who has to listen to what you want, and vote accordingly, that's if he wants to remain your MP.

If you don't vote at all, YOU GET THE GOVERNMENT YOU DESERVE!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 09:03 PM

"I'm fed-up of having two Tory parties to choose from"

There's always the Lib. Dems. of course and they have more folk musicians and enthusiasts in their ranks than the two Tory parties.

They're also 'sound' on the Iraq war.

Charlie Kennedy must be the only party leader who canvasses in his constituency (west scottish highlands) with his dad (a champion fiddler) leading the way pied-piper style!

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:26 AM

Just a thought, taking a medium-term view:

Tony is going isn't he? Said he'd serve only 4 or 5 years more, if re-elected. (Also, heart problems?)

What will everything look like after he's gone?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 05:51 AM

Tony won't be happy until he's been PM for longer than Thatcher, or possibly God, whichever he thinks he is today. And I think he'd do anything short of selling the first-born into slavery to make that happen.
I think less goverment is the most important issue. The chances of any of them actually making that happen is remote, but at least the tories are thinking about it...

Bunnahabhain

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Crystal
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 06:05 AM

VOTE MONSTER RAVING LOONIE!!!!!
But seriously folks! I think the most important issue is the environment.
However A cat as PM would be a good thing too.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 06:20 AM

Richard, don't bother. There simply isn't another party that can do anything in these elections, despite the expected mass defection of Labour's radical wing.

I voted Labour at every opportunity from 1970 to 2000. I can not imagine any circumstances which would induce me to vote for them again. War, imprisonment without trial, privatisation, racist immigration controls, educational centralism, university funding... the list is endless. If I'd wanted policies like these, I could have supported the Tories at any stage over these last 35 years. Heath was way to the left of the current Labour government. I didn't vote for him, and I won't vote for Blair, Brown, Blunkett or any of the rest of them. And it's the refusal of grassroots activists like yourself to boycott them that keeps them going.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 06:36 AM

The original question posed to Richard by the canvassers is poppycock anyway. I never voted one way or another in an election because of a "single issue", there was never a party that represented 100% of my wishes; usually I have to go for "best fit".

But if a single issue is what they want, then for me this is the lies/subterfuge over the whole Iraq campaign and all that is associated with it. Sure we are always suspicious of politicians being economical with the truth. But we generally punish those that get caught, one way or the other. Here we have a PM who not only sent people's kids to fight an unecessary/unjust war under false pretences, but on the way also condoned Guantanamo (its very existence is anathema to me). He has blood on his hands, and I'd rather die poor than without honour.

That leaves us between a rock and a hard place in choosing who to vote for (and I am a believer in voting, not abstaining). But I expect that between the LibDems, Greens etc we will find a "best fit" that's good enough for this time round. Anything but the dishonour of condoning TB's behaviour through my vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 09:41 AM

If my local Labour Party phoned me they would get reported to the TPS. Don't the snivelling politicians realise there is a backlash?

AND why is the PC & C P-B wedding timed the way it is? Because they did a deal with his Godship in No 10. Whatever the psychology it ain't foolin' me.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cats
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 12:38 PM

How about, please leave teachers alone to teach and stop playing politics with kids futures. They did promises a 5 year moritorium on educational change when they got in the first time, but I'm still waiting for it to start!

And Cllr... Mike's quite a good name... ouch.:-)))

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: DougR
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 12:42 PM

I'm not familiar with all the issues facing the voters in GB, but one thing I hope is that the election does not cause your current PM to be replaced.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 01:01 PM

And yet in your country, Doug, he'd count as a raving left-winger (so would most of our Tory Party for that matter).

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 01:28 PM

Hmm. Maybe Lib Dem or Green then. Many of the issues canvassed above are important - and it was not a question of what single issue would make me vote for (or against) New Labour, but which issue is "the most important".

That leaves me with the health service - cleaning, reversing privatisations, etc - or maybe honesty in politics (look at the way we have been lied to about Iraq, the Licensing Act, and almost everything else under the sun)

How about housing - permitting housing authorities to build new social housing?

Re-nationalising rail?

Stopping PFI and other priviatisations all round?

Pensions? bring back SERPS!

An excess profits tax on oil companies and banks?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: DougR
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 01:35 PM

I'm only interested in the PM's POV on fighting terrorism, Kevin. The rest is the business of the people of GB.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:32 PM

One good thing about having an officially Tory Government was that, when it tried to impose cuts on local services, our local council in Harlow could be relied on to at least try to resist, and to protect us. Now they just roll over and cooperate.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:39 PM

No DougR,

The PM's POV on arse licking your own crazy leader, is very much UK business, and most of us want him to stop. Please go peddle your "Support the dishonest bullies" message to those who might buy it. I believe you'll find most of them in the southern half of your own country.

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 07:35 PM

Hello Don, may I for once agree with you?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST,A fair man
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 07:40 PM

May I go one further than Don and Richard and point out that it was the USA's cultural and economic imperialism - of which those in the two towers were in fact the troops - that created the situation in which those without arms who wished to defend their cultures had to turn to violence?

Like the hypocrisy that attacks Ken Livingstone, I am tired of the hypocrisy that funds terrorists who attack the UK, but screams "foul" when its own forces of oppression get their comeuppance.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: EagleWing
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:04 AM

"How about, please leave teachers alone to teach and stop playing politics with kids futures. They did promises a 5 year moritorium on educational change when they got in the first time, but I'm still waiting for it to start!"

Oh YES! I have lost count of how many changes I have had to try and take into account over the last few years. As a supply teacher I don't always get to hear of them until I go into a school that's struggling to fit in the new fad with the other demands made by a government whose priorities are "education, education and education" but who never actually consult educationalists.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Stu
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:04 AM

DougR - do not believe all your see on Fox news!

As said in the previous few posts, most people in the UK view Blair's cosying up to a right-wing nutter as extremely disturbing, and want him to stop.

As for his approach to terrorism, even though the NI peace process is in trouble at the moment, it proves the only way to stop terrorist violence is to address the issues causing it directly and TALK to people (not pre-emptive strikes), however repugnant that my seem to you.

I shall vote, but will probably spoil my ballot as I think no party is worth voting for.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:13 AM

But remember its not the same Tony.
As he said
first he wanted to be all things to all men.
Then he thought he knew best.
But now he's nice and cuddly and trusrworthy and is ready to backle down and do what we want.
And can someone explain why we have in charge of the country the only man in Britain who can lose money on every property deal he tries.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 09:40 AM

What would be entertaining would be if Labour rompee home nationally, and Tony Blair got chucked out in his constituency, Sedgefield. Sadly it's still pretty safe for him, though his vote and his majority did go down quite a bit last time. He's sitting on a majority of 17,713 (as against 25,116 the previous time. Maybe if the others dropped out and Martin Bell stood as a clean-up-the-stable candidate...

Here's the BBC site which gives you all those kinds of details about the last election results.

And here is another site that gives stuff about MPs voting records generally - "They work for you". This is the Tony Blair page, but all the other MPs are all in there too.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:45 PM

Democracy - the worst system of Government except all the others.

All power to critics every politician needs them on their shouldres all the time.

Not voting - hard to see what it achieves.

Voting is not enough. If your care about democracy and you feel able to contribute, the place is inside current politcal parties. Many of Tony Blairs critics are inside the party. The rank and file are not happy people.

If you want to actually change things, that's the best place to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:28 PM

Would be nice Les, if true, but I'm afraid it's not. We have this wonderful system here called the whip. It gently guides party MPs toward the government (Tony) POV.

One line whip:- "We'd realy like you to vote with us, and we'll explain why there isn't a conflict of concience. And we did give you the key to the members' loo".

Two line whip:- "We will take it seriously amiss if you don't vote with us, and sanctions might be applied. Your key to the members loo may be in jeopardy".

Three line whip:- "You will vote with us, or we'll cut your bollocks off, and you won't need a key to the members' loo".

Nobody ever changes anything until he is Prime Minister, and experience suggests that all changes he makes from that point on will be for the worse. Hence my comment above, re. independent candidates. It may not be practical, but it might possibly produce 635 MPs who are not afraid to vote for what they know is right.


Whether that would be better or not, in terms of results achieved, I know not, but it would be closer to what is really meant by democracy.

What we have now is a ruling clique who cannot be controlled, because their seats (votes) outnumber all other parties combined.

In essence this is little different than Germany under Hitler, or Russia under Stalin.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:41 PM

Profound radio vox pop quote from the streets of Liverpool;
"I don't vote 'cause it makes no difference. If it made a difference they wouldn't let us do it."
Discuss!

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:52 PM

In essence this is little different than Germany under Hitler, or Russia under Stalin.

That's an indefensibly idiotic statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:23 PM

Don T ....Im beginning to like your posts more and more.

Big Pink Lad ...Im surprised at your language. It seems clear to me that our democracy is a sham.
We may not yet use the military to repress protest , but just give them time, "Its comin'yet for aw that"
I reckon in another 20 yrs UK will be a fully fledged police state, inevitable ending for a "capitalist democracy".
Hows that for an oxymoron you psuedo intellectual?....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 04:38 PM

BigPinkLad, I will defend that (idiotic) statement. In terms of the fact that we cannot prevent them from doing whatever they wish, there IS little difference. We are as powerless as the populations mentioned above.

Unlike the US, we have no basically unchangeable written constitution, and there is, in theory, nothing to stop a British government from suspending elections, and ruling permanently, which would be defineable as totalitarian. The fact that no government (since Oliver Cromwell) has done, or would do, anything like that does not invalidate the argument. They could!

Had I claimed that our government was as evil as the other two, that would indeed have been both idiotic and indefensible, but I did not.
We can't, however, know what kind of party might attain to power in the UK in the future. Get the point?

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:06 PM

BPL   Im sorry, the last sentence in my last post should have ended with the word intellectuals.
The sentence was not meant as a jibe at you, but at a small group of self confessed highly intellegent people who live here.
                      Apologies ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:25 PM

You will find Don's point about the dictatorship of the majority rehearsed in less inflammatory language in all the major textbooks on English constitutional law.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 08:00 PM

Im a county cllr; I am politically responsible for a fifty eight million pound budget (at least for a few more weeks) Whilst a lot of it is tied up in contracts wages and government duties and legislation I still have the opportunity to make a difference. Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 08:09 PM

Oh hang on, I just read Don's post We do have a written constition it is an uncodified constition but written never the less and to quote a book on constitution.

The following is paraphrased from an essay I wrote on the subject a few years ago. My source material "Politics UK" a Prentice Hall publication."A constitution can be defined as a system of laws,customs and conventions which defines the composition and powers of the organs of the state (such as government, Parliament,and the courts) and regulates the relations of various state organs to one another and of those state organs to the private citizen. The british constition differs from most in that it is not drawn up in a single codified document and as such it is described as an "unwritten" constitution However much of the constitution exists in "written" form. Many Acts of Parliament such as the Parliment acts 1911 and 1949 are clearly measures of constitutional law. Those acts constitute formal, written - and binding - documents. To describe the constitution as unwritten is thus misleading. Rather, what Britain has is a part written and uncodified constitution." Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 08:30 PM

But a constitution where, at least until recently, there were virtually no fixed safeguards, if a government with a solid majority were to decide to discard inconvenient things like trial by jury or any number of other matters of some importance.

To some extent the fact that we are now tied into a wider system of human rights legislation and courts does provide some safeguards, but pretty shaky and desultory ones.

If a whipped parliament does allow the present Home Secretary to lock citizens up in their own homes for as long as he chooses, without any kind of court hearing, it is going to be quite some time before that can get struck down effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 08:45 PM

yes Mcgrath I agree with you and as the conservative party do not think the home secretary should have this abilty I suggest you all go out and vote tory at the next election. cllr *runs and ducks*