BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!

Subject: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: Stu
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:22 AM

Good news today as the Kyoto agreement comes into force.

This is a step in the right direction, even if some of the biggest polluters are not included or have ratified but remain outside the framework.

Still a cause of celebration for the rest of us though!

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: skipy
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:50 AM

What about "global dimming"?

Serious Skipy!

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: skipy
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:29 PM

Can't believe that no one has an opinion on this!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: Peace
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:30 PM

My opinion would not be welcome here.

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:39 PM

Pretty please, can we now invade the principal threat to global safety?

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:45 PM

Sorry, but my country has a lot of folks who think their mission is to burn up as much stuff as they can during their watch on the planet Earth, so we're not playing...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: Piers
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:50 PM

Kyoto is too little, too late! And even that is not acceptable to some sections of the capitalist class. The capitalist system menas that is is inevitable that whatever resource use allows the greatest profits will be used. Then they will invest in research and technology to build better weapons to keep doing this rather than invest in technologies for the sustainable production of energy. There is only one solution, world socialist revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:17 PM

Piers,   I agree with much of your post, and a socialist world in the future would be beneficial to humanity and the planet.

I differ in the methodology.
I believe that the struggle to save our environment will ultimately bring about socialism, not the other way round.

The values and feelings aroused by environmental issues,engender the "spirituality" required to fight and defeat the monster that dwells within each and every one of us....Greed.
And greed is the mother of the capitalist system.

When we examine this monster and finally see it for what it is....The slayer of our children, the destroyer of our land water and air,the ideology that sets brother against brother....Then we will have socialism...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:44 AM

Incentives are good but we also need regulations. Lets see which governments care about the future and not just the fast buck.

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: Ian
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:36 AM

As I see it the UK govt have signed up just to force nuke power on us.

There is no other way in which Tony can achieve the reduction in emissions with out it. Be warned after the next election, no matter who wins the programme for nuke power will be rolled out.

There has been very little effort to engage industry in the drive to reduce their CO2 production.

If the finance rulers can not see a payback on an energy saving project in less than one year they are not interested.

The only thing that will help is for higher fuel/energy costs.

If you were amongst the PRATS that managed to stop the wind farm in your area, well done, cos in two years time you could get a mini "community" nuke power station at the end of your road.

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: GUEST,Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 10:28 AM

If you were amongst the PRATS that managed to stop the wind farm in your area, well done, cos in two years time you could get a mini "community" nuke power station at the end of your road.

That's the stupidist idea I've heard in a long time. Stopping the wind farm, Well done. But a 'mini community' nuclear staion is clearly a wind up.

Use the existing nuclear sites, and build more reators there.

Security- Big staions, out where the existing reacors are are easier to secure against terrorists / unstable geology etc.

The existing sites have the transport arrngement in place already.

It annoys a few locals, used to a reactor on their doorstep, rather than entirly new areas.


And If/when we get a working fusion reactor design, the sites are still ideal for those too.

Oh yes, and if you can get planning permission to build anything larger than a phone box in two years, I'd be impressed.


Roll on the reactors.

Bunnahabhain.

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: Piers
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:10 PM

Hi Ake, I think the campaign for socialism and nuffink but is justified on materialist principles and through observation. What I mean is that single issue campaigns most often either get sold out or fail and collapse, or even succeed but then there is another battle to fight.    I think this applies to environmental groups as much as civil rights or political campaigns. If production could be democratically controlled to meet needs, then conflicts of use might not disappear entirely but they would not be subject to the pursuit of profit for a minority. And I think that it is the interests of the whole community to produce stuff without damaging 'the environment'.

The materialist principles I mentioned mean that I recognise that behaviour, ideology or spirituality arises from the material conditions in which we live. People do behave greedily, and its ugly, but it is because they get more stuff for themselves, in the very short term at least; 'the fetishism of commodities' as Marx called it. Perhaps it is just semantics, but I feel that 'stopping being greedy' does not have the same effect as recognising that power over the production of stuff that everybody needs is controlled by only a few of us who direct production to toward profit rather than directly fulfilling needs. When communities could control production for their own ends.

Cheers
Piers

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:55 AM

Take heed!

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: Cluin
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:01 AM

Poor Baby Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 10:05 AM

I was at an energy conference this week.    They announced that Kyoto was taking place.   One person at the conference mentioned that Canada has already stated that they will not be able to meet the protocol.   The quote was that is was easier to sign up for it than to actually meet it.

Another person at the conference stated that his contact in the UK stated that the UK will not be able to meet the protocol as well.   Of course, the protocol does not include China who is gobbling up more steel and resources than anybody else right now with unchecked polution and no emission standards.

As they say in Japenese- Sayanara.

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: DougR
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:25 PM

Yep. I'm breathing better already.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: pdq
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:30 PM

I must get this dyslexia fixed, I thought the thread title was "Koyoto Is Farce".

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:59 PM

Yeppers!

Subject: RE: BS: Kyoto in force - hooray!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 11:01 AM

Larry K--

Congratulations on a kernel of sense in your post. This implies that you actually know something about the energy situation, in contrast to your purely political postings.

However someone who went to an energy conference, you also should know (and probably do, though you won't admit it) that it was never intended that China be included in the first round of emissions reductions, as far as enforcement of standards.

The theory, as you well know, is that since primarily the western industrialized states had reaped the benefits of industrialization, in increased living standards, since the start of the Industrial Revolution--, and thereby caused about 80% of the pollution Kyoto was meant to start to address,-- that they should take the first step in alleviating the problem.

Kyoto was never intended as anything more than a first step.

The question is whether you think it is worth it to start the process of reducing emissions or continue with business as usual--increasing the seriousness of the problem.

Perhaps you don't care what happens after you leave the scene That would fit right in with the Bushite environmental stance--"I'm all right, Jack".




Piers--


"World socialist revolution"

As Gamble Rogers said----- "Ah, NoSTALgia"