BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: gnu
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:08 PM

I have a question. Do farmers have the right to keep small calibre rifles and use same to dispatch varmints ? In this case, of course, foxes ?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Raedwulf
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:54 PM

Giok - where is the class prejudice? *You* seem determined to introduce class at every twist of the argument. *You* seem to be determined to defend hunting (despite the fact that you claim you "don't care either way"). *You* keep raising the spectre of rabies...

"when it eventually gets here [and it will] foxes will be the first casualty"

"I did not say that rabies was to be found on the UK mainland as far as we know, what I did say, and I will say it again, RABIES WILL COME TO THE UK, it is already endemic across the channel, and now that UK dogs can go abroad using a 'Pet Passport' it will come to the UK"

Funnily enough, rabies has, more or less, always been endemic across the Channel, & never has been here.

What you're actually saying is that rabies will be spread because of pet passports. So the less dogs around, the less likelihood of rabies spreading, eh? So bannning hunting will be a good thing. There'll be less dogs. And, I would have thought, hunting dogs are more likely to pick up a random infection than a pampered pet pooch...

Never mind... Ach! I cannae be arsed, mon! Giok, your arguments are terribly pro-, in all the most unacceptable senses of the phrase. The hunters claim that they control foxes (& yet at least 4 times more killed on the roads... we should hunt foxes with cars, then?). Then they claim that they "conserve" the countryside (in other words, we breed foxes & so there are too many of them. Ergo! We must hunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:33 PM

It isnt a class thing. Those who enjoy killing animals are unable to accept that some people dont enjoy killing animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:45 PM

Well I've never got into the quoting figures game because statistics are difficult to prove, and are used by both sides to prove opposing viewpoints. I am pro choice not pro hunting in particular, I just can't see why so much angst is expended on such an unimportant subject, when there are more important issues to worry about. The general namby pamby viewpoint that has become prevalent pisses me off, I heard someone say the other day that winning was bad because it involved somebody else losing. Surprise surprise, where are these wimps and bleeding hearts coming from, why don't they get real? Nearly all the single issue causes I can think of involve depriving people who have a bit of money enjoying themselves, ban 4x4s from London etc.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Lanfranc
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:04 PM

Class-based prejudice and puerile anthropomorphism raised the issue of an irrelevant anachronism to the status of a pseudo national crusade and wasted more Parliamentary time than any other recent legislation.

The bunny-huggers have had their way; Blair might get a few extra votes but we're still involved in a pointless war, the Police still prosecute more motorists than muggers, burglars or rapists, there are still families living on the brink of starvation in 21st Century Britain and plans are well advanced to concrete over most of southern England. Never mind, we've saved the fox!

What Pyrhhic victory is this?

Now, for fox sake shut up about it!

Alan
(Waiting for the next freedom to be eroded)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:11 PM

Quite agree Lanfranc. The time delay and parliamentary hours spent are scandalous. Should have been passed years ago. Nine minutes into the ban and foxes all over the UK are partying. Ho Tally .

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: gnu
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:16 PM

AHEM! AGAIN, I have a question. Do farmers have the right to keep small calibre rifles and use same to dispatch varmints ? In this case, of course, foxes ?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:18 PM

Funny how the cry for freedom is so selective. All the pro hunters are saying is "leave me alone". Sorry folks, but it's the law now and I campaigned to get this government elected for just that. It may seem an unimportant issue to you, but to the majority, it is of great importance. Today we are a more civilised country. We have actually moved a little bit forward! Now we have to see the law enforced. However, I agree, the police will spend most of their time raising revenue from drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: gnu
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:42 PM

"Hunting", not chasing foxes with dogs and horses, is what you said... "Hunting." Hunting is not cruel in any way, shape, or form. If you do not understand this, you do not understand hunting and should not be allowed to "vote" on that which you do not understand. By the way, mob rule is not democratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:07 PM

Stats

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:16 PM

Just wait until it's your minority who are persecuted by parliment...

Bunnahabhain.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:19 PM

Being ambivalent about hunting the thing I find annoying is the distinct class division with reference toi "Toffs" and "Landed Gentry" without reference to the office workers, shop assistants, and the labourers who hunt. Several labour M.P.'s have openly stated that "it was a class thing".
In answer to some of the questions above:
LTS: A relation of mine hunts, my brother-in-law follows a Premier Divisioon football team. It costs him more to watch football than my relative needs to spend on her horses!
RAEDWULF: In the late 60's/early 70@s there was an outbreak of rabies near Camberley in Surrey. ALL wildlife, including stray cats, was shot and incinerated by a group of Ministry-appointed Guns. Not a thing was left alive for several miles around the outbreak. Do we really want that again?
GNU: Small-calibre rifles are NOT permitted unless the requisite firearms certificate has ben obtained from the police - not an easy thing to obtain as requirements are very strict. As you no doubt appreciate, a shotgun, unless at close range and with heavy shot, is useless against foxes.
Manner of dess of any person riding to hounds is covered by convention, in the same way as the dress for golf, football, rock-climbing or subaqua sports.
Clothing is developed for each and every occasion, social or sport, and to deride someone for their mode of dress shows only the ignorance of the derider.
Regarding statistics, remember that it is safer to cross the road while not wearing shoes than when wearing them, as statistics show that the incidence of people injured while not wearing shoes when crossing the road is very small.
Can we now call for a ban on footbaLL, a sport where the participants try to injure each other and the supporters cause havoc in town centres and injure and kill each other.
This is not a class thing, but after all, football is played mainly only by the working classes!

Colyn

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:22 PM

I wonder why we in America don't have a fox problem that requires us to run them down with dogs and watch them being torn to pieces while still alive?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: HuwG
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:39 PM

I have no particular feelings either way on the matter of hunting itself. However, I do think that the energy expended on the debate is largely wasted.

(I live in a small industrial town. My younger brother does live in the countryside, and while he himself doesn't like the idea of killing anything for sport, likes even less the idea of faddist townies whose background is in service industries, imposing their artificial values on people who try and make a living from the countryside.)

There are a number of issues which affect those living in the British countryside, and which are not being properly addressed by the Government, or indeed any of the political parties. The price paid to farmers for agricultural produce is being driven steadily lower by supermarket chains who enjoy almost monopoly rights over its distribution, to far below the point where the farmer can make any sort of profit or even living, without subsidy. Inflation of housing prices is driving the cost of owning or even renting property in the countryside beyond the means of many local people, especially the young. And yet the debates about the countryside have for years revolved around the single and largely irrelevant issue of hunting. It is as if the Reformation of the Church with all its implications for the salvation of man's soul, was put on hold while the question of the number of angels which can dance on the head of a pin was resolved.

No less a person than Germaine Greer, that patron saint of the radical and feminine, stated in a recent programme on Channel 4, her view that compared to the concentration-camp conditions in which many animals for human consumption are reared and transported, the number of foxes killed by hunts and even their claimed suffering is insignificant.

Hunting with dogs might now be illegal, but I can foresee that there will be endless attempts in Parliament and in the courts to repeal the ban, or create loopholes in it, or seek compensation for loss of income and amenities and so on. I think it will take the best part of a decade before the debate finally subsides, only to resurface when New Labour finally goes out of office.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:33 AM

gnu,
    Farmers don't have a "right" to own small calibre rifle. You have to apply for a firearms certificate, which in these touchy - feely days, is next to impossible to obtain.
    In my years on a farm we shot most of the foxes at harvest time with shotguns, because -

a) A shotgun certificate is much easier to get than a firearms certificate.
b) A moving target like a fox is bloody hard to hit with a single shot rifle, the spread of shot from a half choke shotgun barrel is much more effective.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: mooman
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:52 AM

Well, actually, rabies is endemic in the UK with a few cases found in Daubenton's bats and possibly other bat species. But this species does not generally roost in homes and cases of people being bitten by them are very rare.

Rabies is not endemic in the part of Belgium in which I live although there is endemic rabies in the Southern Ardennes.

With the measures currently in place and the action taken when a rare case is detected, I think it unlikely rabies will become endemic in the UK.

So I don't think the rabies argument is particularly valid for the current fox population.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:24 AM

No less a person than Germaine Greer, that patron saint of the radical and feminine, stated in a recent programme on Channel 4, her view that compared to the concentration-camp conditions in which many animals for human consumption are reared and transported, the number of foxes killed by hunts and even their claimed suffering is insignificant.

If that is was she said and the words used - then it shows that not having any does mean that you can't talk 'B*****s'.

Such comparisons do not help prevent all suffering - they make the person saying them appear to be compasionate and informed but just result in excusing or making some suffering appear to be acceptable.

No unecessary (i.e' preventable) suffering is ever acceptable and never 'insignificant' - especially to those suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:42 AM

Manner of dess of any person riding to hounds is covered by convention, in the same way as the dress for golf, football, rock-climbing or subaqua sports. Clothing is developed for each and every occasion, social or sport, and to deride someone for their mode of dress shows only the ignorance of the derider.

It simply is a fact that some members of the hunt do dress in red coats and this choice of dress need not be defended. Dress may define and identify these people - but I do not deride them for their manner of dress.....but their conduct.

I was reading (in the Radio Times) the views of a transvestite (Turner Prize-winning artist Grayson Perry) in a programme called Why Men Wear Frocks.

He demonstrated parallels between transvestites and leather-clad bikers - 'dressing to impress other men, wearing costumes made of unfamiliar material; risking persoanl injury'........

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,eric the red
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:35 AM

Bunnawhatsisface talks like a pillock, if he doesn't understand the English political process it's time he did, it's called DEMOCRACY, our duly elected parliament has passed a LAW banning hunting with dogs, do you get it now, paliament is elected by WE THE PEOPLE.

If you don't like it, the way to change it is through the ballot box not by breaking the law.

If I steal something from Lord Muck and Sir Whatsisface, not liking the law is no defence.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:07 AM

"the Police still prosecute more motorists than muggers, burglars or rapists" - that's really a bit daft, Alan.

There are a great many more motorists than there are muggers burglars or rapists, and some of us break very sensible laws from time to time; and together we kill and maim far more people than all the muggers rapists and burglars put together.

Battery farming is far worse than foxhunting? Of course it is, and I hope that something can be done to stop that repulsive activity. I quite agree that should have been a higher priority than hunting-to-kill with dogs.

I suspect that the numbers of people taking part in illegal hunts will fall off rapidly, once they realise that they aren't going to have any cover for insurance when they fall off a horse, or when they damage some property in the course of a hunt.

On the other hand I can quite envisage drag hunting actually expanding - there are a fair number of people around who might like the idea of dressing up and galloping around the country after the hounds, if the day wasn't going to be ruined by some wild creature being pulled apart, and some revolting ritual in which children were "blooded".

As for the possibility which has been suggested about drag hunts turning into "real" hunts "by accident", there's a pertinent letter about that in today's Guardian, by a bloke from Middlesex called Crispin Murray - "...Simply bring the pack hounds into line with other dangerous dog breeds and legislate that they should wear muzzles whenever they are outside in the open air..."

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Giok 99
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:42 AM

Ah Eric, they had to bypass the democratic process to get it into law, or is that OK if it's something you agree with. Now if they'd done that with the PEL legislation you and others would be saying, 'Democracy, what democracy'
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:54 AM

How many times does a piece of legislation need to be included in an electoral manifesto and repeately supported by massive majorities in the elected chamber before that counts as "the democratic process", Giok99? (None of which happened in the case of the cockup about music licences.)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,eric the red
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:42 AM

Ah Giok do you mean it's only undemocratic when a Labour government uses it and not the Conservatives ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,eric the red
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:49 AM

And really Giok, your opinion makes not the slightest difference, it's still the law of the land and quite rightly so.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Giok 99
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:53 AM

Was banning fox hunting included in the Labour [in name only] party manifesto? I think you'll find it wasn't!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 10:02 AM

Well everyone seems to have realised that this law was written with loads of loopholes etc... but just to point something out,
you are now breaking the law if your three pet labradors chase after a rabbit while out on a walk. Nice one. hmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Stu
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 10:15 AM

If you are a vegan or fruitarian who opposes the foxhunting ban, then this doesn't apply to you.

I wish people would stop using animal welfare as an argument in favour of the foxhunting ban (and what other argument is there?). If the welfare of animals is really at the heart of this ban, then the hypocrites who drafted and support this bill are the real criminals.

Ever eat a sausage? Burgers? Cheese? Eggs? Bacon? etc etc. Most of this meat or dairy animals are reared using intensive farming techniques where the welfare of the animal is of secondary importance. Anyone who eats any sort of dairy or meat product is going to be eating intensively farmed product, and that adds to the misery of each animal our society is keeping in inhumane conditions.

Like many here, I try to source my meat from ethical sources (many butchers do this now) where the animals raised had a good quality of life, but I am not under the illusion I avoid eating these products.

How about protesting about factory farms instead of chasing a few toffs on horseback, and doing something genuinely useful with your energy?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 11:15 AM

It could be just based on the good old class envy system too!!
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:44 PM

In several previous Labour manifestos there had been a firm promise to ban hunting. (Here is a site with an archive of all of them, dating back to 1900.)

The 2001 one was more waffly, and said: "The House of Commons elected in 1997 made clear its wish to ban fox-hunting. The House of Lords took a different view (and reform has been blocked). Such issues are rightly a matter for a free vote and we will give the new House of commons an early opportunity to express its view. We will then enable Parliament to reach a conclusion on this issue. If the issue continues to be blocked we will look at how the disagreement can be resolved."

That strikes me as a pretty clear implication that opponents of hunting with dogs could vote Labour in a confident expectation of getting a ban this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:50 PM

How about protesting about factory farms instead of chasing a few toffs on horseback, and doing something genuinely useful with your energy

Can we please stop with these needless comparisons? - All these practices should be addressed and they are not mutually exclusive.

And from my experience - many who are actively anti-hunt are also active in protests about farming practices and many similar issues. Now that hunting with dogs is banned - there should be no need for these folk to chase a few toffs on horseback - who are in turn - chasing foxes with dogs. They should now be able to leave that to the police.

Hunting with dogs - is (or should be) just one off of a very long list...........

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:00 PM

because factory farming and live animal export create needless suffering.
Wild foxes have short lives. A fox spared by the hunt will still suffer a dreadful death, and soon. It is just that no one will see it.
Beatrix Potter is fiction.
Anti hunt is a useful distraction from the profitable causes of real suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:12 PM

"The hunt ban is an aweful piece of partisan, class based legislation, that hopefully will be repealed as soon as possible. This may be an insult to the convention that goverment do not reverse each others legislation, but that is is just part of the mainly unwritten consitution of Britan, that has been abused in almost every way by the 'new' Labour goverment by 1997."

In order to ensure that the repeal of this act is not partisan, we must ensure that badger baiting, dog fighting, bear baiting and cock fighting are all made legal again. Bare knuckle fighting should become an Olympic sport just to keep everything fair and non-partisan.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:22 PM

"What do anti hunt people do when they get mice or rats in their
house?"

Well, personally I put on a special pink coat and round up the mice using a pack of specially trained cats.

Then I personally watch ,along with all my neighbours, the cats rip the mice to pieces. As a special treat, if there are any children around who haven't watched this before I get a mouses tail covered in blood and wipe it around the kids' faces.

Was that the answer you were looking for?

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:24 PM

Anti hunt is a useful distraction from the profitable causes of real suffering.

Just anti hunt? Well now both sides should be able to concentrate on preventing real suffering.

I am sure that all of the pro-hunting lobby who are not very concerned about the suffering of the foxes they chase and who have presented us with all these better causes for our attention (issues apprently with real suffering) - will all now be spending their energy in joining us in campaigns to prevent all of this needless suffering.

The energy and money that the Countryside Alliance has spent on legal action - would go a long way in other campaigns to prevent real suffering.

Perhaps if the pro hunt lobby can finally accept that the law of the land applies to them also - all sides can stop scoring points off of each other and work together on the many remaining issues.

All pain is real pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:26 PM

Or I could be wrong, after all it's got nothing to do with class has it?

Personally I don't give a damn whether it's about class. What it is about is bloodthirsty cruelty, and that I do give a damn about.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:31 PM

You'll be starting a campaign to ban the halal method of slaughtering animals then?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:33 PM

"I wonder why we in America don't have a fox problem that requires us to run them down with dogs and watch them being torn to pieces while still alive? "

Because America is abroad, Kendall, and therefore different. :-)

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:40 PM

Paradoxically, the few hunting people I know are concerned about wild life preservation, and humane husbandry. They do not see a contradiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:44 PM

Abroad? So? Americans don't do this kind of cruelty. They kill Muslims instead.

Look, you supporters of fox "hunting" can drag in all the diversions and red herrings you want to; the bottom line is; Fox hunting is unnecessary, barbaric and beneath the dignity of a civilized society.

Trying to avoid the issue by talking about slaughter houses and even fishing is nothing but a red herring. Face the issue squarly and you must admit it. Animal cruelty in general is another issue altogether, and should be addressed as such.
Don't give us that rubbish that because we eat5 meat fox hunting is ok. That's just plain silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:47 PM

You'll be starting a campaign to ban the halal method of slaughtering animals then?

If it can be proved that it is a crueller method than others. I have heard a rabbi giving a particularly convincing argument that the kosha method is less cruel than normal slaughter house methods. I suspect that halal and kosha methods are similar. But I wouldn't know. I'm pretty certain than neither method is done for fun by people who actually enjoy seeing animals suffer.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Ooh-aah2
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:47 PM

To say that hunting should be banned because an overwhelming number of people oppose it is bollocks, and it is bollocks precisely because Britain is a democratic country. Once, the overwhelming majority of people did not want homosexual people to allowed to make love, or people to be able to divorce no matter how much they hated one another, or people to be allowed to worship what they want, and wished (probaly still wish) to enforce the death penalty. In a true democracy the majority are not allowed to enforce their will on the lives of a minority. This indefensible but wild, atavistic and thrilling sport is in danger while the massive, revolting everyday exploitation of animals in battery conditions quietly continues. It is a sad day, but not hopeless because English country people seem to be showing the guts and resilience that still makes me glad to be English after 27 years in Australia.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:50 PM

"because factory farming and live animal export create needless suffering."

I find myself wondering how many factory farmers are to be numbered among the anti-hunt brigade.

Contrariwise, how many factory farmers are also fox-hunters?

Don't know the answer. Just a thought.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:51 PM

Are you saying it is a sad day that toffs will no longer be allowed to engage in cruelty that is even beneath animals?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:53 PM

GUEST: "Abroad? So? Americans don't do this kind of cruelty. They kill Muslims instead."

GUEST: If you saw the word "abroad" you ought also to have seen the smiley. I was just tweaking Kendall's beard a bit and trying to lighten the whole thing up a bit. You can do that among friends, and I count Kendall as a friend though I've only met him once.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: HuwG
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:02 PM

With the greatest respect to The Shambles:

"Can we please stop with these needless comparisons? - All these practices should be addressed and they are not mutually exclusive"

Unfortunately, when it comes to a matter of Parliamentary time, it could be argued that they are mutually exclusive. There have been endless debates over hunting which have pre-empted time whch could be used for arguably more useful debate in the House of Commons, or legislation. I regret that this situation will probably continue, as just about every Conservative-launched debate or Private Member's Bill for the foreseeable future will attempt to repeal the ban.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the Parties has any coherent policy on countryside issues. With a General Election looming, there will be little time to formulate any before the political arena descends into a pointless debate about Al Qaida and the need to lock up any dusky-hued person attempting to enter the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:24 PM

I may be wrong, but I don't think there is much evidence that the supporters of hunting have been very active in trying to get battery farming abolished.

I hope that the focus of attention can now turn to trying to achieve that. Any chance that a pledge to do that might be in any of the parties' election manifestos?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:30 PM

I take it all you anti hunt people are in favour of this piece of single issue political terrorism! Click!!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:36 PM

Why would you think that, Giok? I have no more use for ghouls than I have for people who inflict cruelty on helpless animals. However, I can't speak for others who are anti cruelty. (Notice, I didn't say anti hunt)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:50 PM

The ban on the hunting of foxes using hounds is not a class matter.

It is totally irrelevant that fox-hunting (predominantly an upper-class sport) has been banned, whilst fishing (where the victim is not even finished off, but released to be tortured again) has not


Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:00 PM

Fishing is a hobby carried out by very posh people indeed.

Dog fighting and cock-fighting have traditionally been done by poor people. That hasn't kept it legal.

Hare-coursing is pretty working-class too, and that's been banned.

All in all, seeing this as particularly about class doesn't really add up.

..........................................

And that last crack by Giok was really rather silly, because he knows perfectly well that the episode he linked too is one that almost all people who are concerned about animal cruelty are totally opposed to.