BS: Men and pain

Subject: BS: Men and pain
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 10:24 AM

Everybody knows that we men can endure all sorts of pain without complaining other than - I think I'll skip the second half of the sentence...

Anyway, what is it that makes us so strong? A new experiment has probed that question. Male participants were asked as part of an experiment to hold their hand and part of the arm as long as possible in icy water. In one condition the female research assistant had her hair combed back, wore a white overall, kept a large distance to the participant, had no make-up and read the instruction from a sheet.

In the other condition the identical female assistant had her hair open, wore a tight jeans allowing a glimpse of her tummy a bit below the navel, stood close to the male, had make-up and freely told the instruction in a much more conversational manner.

Participants in the second condition kept their hand more than twice as long in the water than in the first condition and the difference would have been much larger if there would not have been an upper limit of 2 1/2 min to prevent damage.

What does that show? We men are ready to endure more pain if kindly asked in a colloquial tone and not addressed in an unpersonal way. It shows how sensible we are.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: GUEST,jim tailor
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 10:29 AM

It shows exactly what produces body heat.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: GUEST,bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 10:31 AM

I tried that experiment, and got told I had to warm my hands up if iwas going to do that....

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 10:35 AM

Actually, it shows that you men do all your thinking with your ******s - not enough sense to get out of harm's way when the prospect of a little *** is waved in front of you :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 10:39 AM

it shows that men can be easily distracted. In general women not only have higher tolerance for pain then men but more endurance.

Cold/pain isn't really a true measure either - as cold numbs pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: GUEST,jim tailor
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 10:45 AM

"as cold numbs pain"

It is 20 degrees and snowing outside my window right now. I volunteer you to go out and get my mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:07 PM

"In conclusion we formulate as a hypothesis that men are more strongly attracted to friendly women than to aloof women; we further hypothesize that female admiration, whether by token, gesture, emotion or physical response, is of such value in the male makeup as to be worth any trial to achieve."

Capitus, RIchard, and Vacuo Asinorum, investigators

"Like, doh!! No shit, Sherlock"

Candy "Sweet-cheeks" Smith, Lab Assistant

"Yeah, like, I KNEW that!"

James "Jockstrap" Gilcannon, 1st-string defense blocker, Community College Maulers






A

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: GUEST,JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:16 PM

My observation would be that the "Male" ability to ignore minor pain is a learned ability, and really isn't just a male thing. Little kids cry when they're hurt, but exposure to enough "little hurts" eventually leads to the observation that sitting down and crying about it interferes with getting on with the game.

In "olden times long forgotten" little boys played games (or did chores) that were likely to give them more frequent exposure to minor "hurts." Social conditioning also (way back then) did not permit the guys to linger over "interuptions," while little girls were granted - to some extent - the luxury of complaining a bit.

From what I can vaguely recall of that long-ago time, the little girls who played "boy stuff" quite frequently outdid the little boys in ignoring the bumps and bruises - if they were exposed to and participated in the same "dangerous" activities. (I do recall, fondly, a few or more pretty tough young girls.)

Some experimenters suggest, in fact, that the ability to withstand "deep pain" is more common, possibly of biological predisposition, in women. (They usually talk about childbirth, and I have never heard a male express very seriously a wish to do that.)

The ability to ignore minor pains is a learned thing, and either sex can learn it. The purpose of ignoring minor pains is so that you can get on with what you're doing.

Answer - give them something they need to do (for most males thinking, especially about speculative interests, is a major task - a friendly young female with semi-exposed belly button is probably task overload) and the response to pain is more easily and completely suppressed. But women can, and often do, learn to do it just as well.

The experiment should be repeated with female subjects - if anyone can figure out what interests them.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:59 PM

It won't be some guy standing close with part of his tummy exposed while I sit with my hand in cold water, that's for sure! He gets any closer and this cold wet hand is going to chill that bare skin in a hurry!

John mentioned childbirth. Different cultures handle the pain differently also, and I think that in America, with priviledge comes painkillers. So a lot of American women don't really know what they can tolerate, or they're so afraid of the prospect of temporary pain that they nuke a lot of other sensation and freedom to move in exchange for that epidural. My ob/gyn did her residency at the county hospital, where the dollar stretches further if not every laboring woman gets an epidural. They used other methods, and though I was at a hospital where the epidural is the norm, my doctor was rather pleased to get to demonstrate her skills with the pudendal block. "We used that one a lot over at John Peter Smith hospital," she told me. It means you go through all of the rest of labor unmedicated, but any tearing or stitching afterward is covered by the block.

And maybe it means I'm a chicken--I'd rather deal with the pain than have a needle inserted into my spine. Now that sounds horrible!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:37 PM

SRS -

Okay, so I've been using the wrong bait. That's probably why they don't show any interest.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:41 PM

The experiment should be repeated with female subjects - if anyone can figure out what interests them.

Tell them 'I bet you can't keep your hand in this water as long as our male participants'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:43 PM

Men endure pain more because they don't want to be called Girly-men. Enduring pain is macho, and a major stupid quality of many men. It leads to brushing off pain that is a warning of a major health problem. Pain has a purpose. Ignoring it is done at your own risk.
I've known too many men who ignored pain at a point where a life-threatening illness was still in its early stages and could have been treated.

Ouch!!!!!!!!!!

There, I did it!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:43 PM

She'll look him in the eye, and with an impish smile, say "show me how it's done. . ."

Gotcha, Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:54 PM

Another thread that will deteriorate into I can do anything you can do rant from the same crew.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:10 PM

There are different ways of being tough. I remember once reading some doctor who'd been involved in some construction project, in the Brazilian rainforest, I think.

He said that the difference between giving some painful injection to the indigenous workers, and to the workers from outside places, such as
North America or Europe, was that the locals would roar out with pain while holding the hand being treated rock steady, and the Westerners would screw up their faces and bite their lips and not utter a sound, and their hands would wobble all over the place. It was much easier getting the needle in the right place with the locals.

In both cases they'd have been male in this case. I have a feeling, though, you might get some analogous difference between the way men and women act in that kind of situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: mack/misophist
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:00 PM

The test would have been more interesting if it had included a few homosexuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:19 PM

I thought possibly Wolfgang's post might be in the nature of a rumour or an urban legend, though with Wolfgang I doubted that would be the case.

Anyway, I checked it out, and here is a news story about it - and here is a link to the website of the guy doing the research, in Florida University School of Dentistry, Dr Fillingim (now isn't that a great name for a dentist? I put in the link to his website because otherwise it'd sound like a spoof).

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:38 PM

I thought this thread was about something altogether different....

*Walks off singing*
Shiny, shiny
Shiny boots of leather
Whiplash girl-child
In the dark...

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:09 PM

I have read this thread thoughtfully, gone home and changed into a tube top and I can tell you my exposed tummy has not raised the pain threshold of a single man all afternoon. Back to the drawing board...maybe a bellybutton ring?

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:09 PM

Speak of the devil. . . I came across an online article today called (link probably only lasts for a few days) Epidural safe for moms early in labor that begins "A new study offers good news for pregnant women who fear the pain of childbirth. Researchers are reporting it's OK to give spinal epidurals as soon as it gets painful."

Later in the article is the line:

"There is no shame in asking for an epidural," said Dr. Cynthia Wong of Northwestern Memorial Hospital and Northwestern University, lead author of the study in the New England Journal of Medicine.
[snip]

Shame? That is an odd way to put it. And this discussion is written in such a way as to suggest that pain is bad--but it isn't always, it's a source of useful information, especially during childbirth. Let me put this in a way in which the fellows on the list can understand also.

Think about sex. And think about that point right when you know that one move more is going to bring on an orgasm. Got that point in your mind? Now translate it to the pain of muscle contractions as a child is moving through the birth canal, and consider the point in time when suddenly the feeling shifts and the pressure is just such that you know you can push and deliver this child. If you're under medication, then you have to (it seems to me, since I haven't had one with any spinal blocks) rely on the doctor to tell you when to push. (I could have compared it to constipation but I thought you might enjoy the other example better. . .)

The American culture, at least, has some pretty goofy ideas about emotional and physical pain.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:22 PM

In my opinion based on treating patients in pain and performing dental procedures for 25 years, women are hands down better at dealing with pain and discomfort than met. Obviously there are exceptions, but women are much more philosophic about dealing with pain and discomfort than men.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:51 PM

I've always gotten along best with women who admired me for NOT standing with my hand in cold water....or coming in out of the cold....or not trying to carry both bags of cement at once.

       Bill D, former 98 lb. weakling

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Raedwulf
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:45 PM

On the subject of childbirth & pain...

A couple of years ago, I got carted off to hospital with screaming agony lower back pain. Everything locked up at once. Those of you that can understand the phrase "fighting to relax, or else!" will know exactly what I mean.

Afterwards, I had a tendency to proclaim that I had "some notion of what childbirth is like...". Until, that is, an elderly lady friend told me that she'd gone through both, & the back pain was far worse!

Some pains are simply part of the evolutionary design parameters. Others are serious warnings...

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:44 AM

Yep!

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Cluin
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:00 AM

How well do you deal with your "man pain"?

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:22 AM

Yep right back atcha!

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:07 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:47 AM

that neighbour of yours must have had an epidural, Raedwulf.. or a very bad memory.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:39 AM

All those men standing with their hands in ice cold water... did any of them pee their pants?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Crystal
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:46 AM

I think that this experiment proves that men are stupid! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:56 AM

What's new on the 'cat?

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:41 AM

I suspect that the only factor wouldn't have been that the experiemntal subject was instinctively motivated to try to pull the young lady. In fact I've a feeling the same result could have been achieved regardless of gender, on either side.

I'd think the crucial thing might be that bit about how the assistant "freely told the instructions in a much more conversational manner" - in other words, they made the experimental subject aware of them as a real person, someone who might be likely to despise them a bit for giving up too easily.

And I'm also fairly sure that there are women who would have that attitude too, as experimental subjects.

And I don't think that attitude is necessarily a bad one, though it was perhaps a bit ridiculous in this particular case. Keeping on pasat the time when you feel like giving up, because you don't want to let yourself and other people down, can be a pretty useful quality in anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: lady penelope
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:58 PM

Mmm, the experiment is far too vague to provide any useful information as there are far too many variables.

I think that there is a general social conditioning in the west towards pain. It also depends if you are wealthy or not.
Wealthy males are expected to brave pain and remain gentlemen, wealthy women are looked upon as delicate flowers.
Poorer men are expected to survive painful conditions, but, to a certain extent, acheive a certain standing by constantly referring to it. (e.g. "Now if I can redecorate the parlour even with my one lung, I don't see how you can't go down the shops with a cold...."). Poorer women are expected to cope, to not make a fuss and do what ever the doctor tells them. So long as dinner's on the table and the houseworks done, nothing bad is happening.

None of this has any bearing on an individual's ability to cope with pain, nor does it explain why some people appear to feel less pain than others.

As for child birth. Yes it is painful and can be more or less painful depending on how well the actual birth is going. It is also made even more painful by being scared or tense. This has become a larger problem as childbirth has been taken away from women by male doctors and gynaecologists. What was a common experience to women, even before giving birth themselves, has now become a mystery (with attendant myths and scare stories provided by women themselves!!).

The figures for episiotimes and pain killers in home births is waaaaaay lower than those for childbirth in hospitals. There also tend to be fewer complications. Current thought is that this is because the mothers that are able to choose home births (not all health authorities support this service) are better informed and feel confident of the support that they will have at the time. The very nature of a lot of hospital births (strange place, strange faces, poor beside manners and a lack of information) can cause a large amount of distress to a woman about to give birth, never mind the birth itself.

TTFN Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:28 PM

"some notion of what childbirth is like...". Until, that is, an elderly lady friend told me that she'd gone through both, & the back pain was far worse!" Raedwulf

May I respectfully suggest, Raedwulf, that her back pain episode was more recent - and thus fresher in her mind - than her chldbearing experience? It is tempting to tell oneself and others years later that childbearing, being universal and natural, cannot be extraordinarily painful but stop and think: How would you like pushing an 8 pound object down a four inch tube and out a two inch exit? Realize that each of these viaducts must, per force, expand to the degree necessary. It may be 'natural' but it is certainly not painfree.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:38 PM

I assisted with three deliveries. None were pain-free, and one was a nightmare a la Stephen King, with lots of screaming and little analgesic help available because it had progressed too far for C-section to be a viable option. That is the nature of some child birth. Ebbie's description is a good one. It can be extremely painful. The woman involved had another child later.

I attended a MVC in which the driver of a semi had the following injuries: closed fracture of right femur; open fracture of left tib/fib; approximately six ribs broke; punctured left lung; dislocated shoulder; front teeth smashed; face torn from corner of left lip to forehead. He too was trying to scream--but the best he could manage was whimpers. The extrication was rushed due to the injuries. I held C-spine while the guys and gals cut doors and pulled back the steering wheel. The extrication itself was painful. He recovered after four months and is again back driving trucks.

I object to the notion that pain and its tolerance is a matter of pride or even should be. Humans can withstand tremendous agonies, and the sex of the individual involved has nothing to do with it. Pain hurts. That I do know. I also know what the screams sound like from both women and men. If you think this is an issue that revolves around gender, you are sadly mistaken IMO.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: LilyFestre
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:06 PM

OUCH....I am in pain just reading this thread!!!

As some of you know I am going to be the labor/birth coach for my best friend. Since I have never had a child, I asked her how I could best prepare to help her and what to expect. She has taped several shows from The Learning Channel involving birth stories....the good, the bad, the ugly and the OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!

I think the hardest part for me is going to be watching my friend in immense pain and not being able to help. I feel the same way when Mr. Festre is in pain....I don't think it's fair to assume that one gender feels more pain than another....pain and agony are pain and agony.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:47 PM

I think that the way in which we deal with pain makes a difference. Either you manage it or let it take over your life. When I have been in acute pain, from a slipped disc, I found that consciously relaxing made some difference. I also found that accepting that I was going to have pain, whatever I did, helped me to manage it.

I think that the same is true of childbirth - I knew that it was going to hurt but accepted the fact and went with it. If you can avoid fighting it, and that's not easy, the pain seems to be less than might otherwise be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Raedwulf
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 04:07 PM

May I respectfully suggest, Ebbie, that either your (presumed) child birth was reasonably easy, or that you have never suffered the excrutiating back pain that I did, or that (I can only presume) my friend did? You've entirely missed the point I was making. Ditto Freda. I'd like to know what your personal experience is that leads you to so poo-poo my friend's remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:01 PM

"Fight! Fight!"

That'show it used to go in the playground at school. Never seemed to matter what it was about, any more than it seems to, sometimes, here. Is there any topic that someone wouldn't find it possible to get into a fight over?

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:23 PM

Raedwulf I have no doubt that your back pain was more severe than childbirth can be for some people.

I feel sympathy for guys, you will never know what it feels like to give birth and it is often used against you in a " Pull yourself together you don't know the meaning of pain." kind of way.

I gave birth four months after a particularly spectacular compound fracture of the ankle...both incidents close enough together for my judgement not to have been clouded by bootees and bonnets.

Compound Fracture = never felt pain like it in my life.
Natural Birth = piece of cake in comparison.

I think it helps to realise birth is a constructive pain and like jacqui said, go with the flow, imagine waves rolling into the shore etc....whereas a compound fracture is just a " Oh God what have I done now?" kind of agony. And before I get leaped on by the twenty four hour labour mob....yes, I have never had a 'difficult' labour, so can't speak for those who have.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:32 PM

Compound (open) fractures hurt like the dickens. So does childbirth at times. I have never hd one of the former or experienced one of the latter. Just hearsay. BUT, I believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:58 PM

I think what that study proves is what we really knew all along... men are equipped with two brains, but with enough blood to operate only one of them at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 09:28 PM

This is not a subject that has an answer. Maybe the next generation of MRI will measure pain precisely, and each person's level of tolerance.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:12 AM

I strongly suspect that pain is something which is extremely subjective - the very same condition will be experienced by people in a widely different way.

It's rather like smoking - two people can smoke the same amount for years, but when it comes to giving it up, one will find it no problem whatsoever, and the other will find it virtually impossible.

That tends to be interpreted in terms of one person having stronger willpower; and in the same way, one person's seeming greater ability to put up with a painful procedure will be seen a measure of greater strength of character or something like that - but I think most of the time, in both cases, it's just down to differences in the way we are wired up. What we are experiencing may look the same from the outside, but it just doesn't hit us in the same place and the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Men and pain
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:20 PM

Good point, McGrath. And I think that there are really two different questions involved... one of them being how much pain different people can tolerate, and the other being how much pain different people actually experience. Two different people can be subjected to essentially the same stimulus and yet each of them can experience a different amount of pain. I would tend to suspect that the group of men who were dealing with the more sexually attractive assistants actually felt less pain than the ones who were not.

Another thing that can substantially effect how much pain a person can tolerate is the amount of fear that accompanies the pain. I'm pretty much always in pain of one sort or another, but I can tolerate it much better when I'm not also having an allergic reaction to something that causes me to experience a sensation of panic. And of course, that's why dentists use nitrous oxide for painful procedures. Under nitrous, you know you're in pain, but you just don't care.

Either way though, anyone who is experiencing accute pain of any sort has my deepest sympathy.