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BS: My house is in danger
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Subject: BS: My house is in danger From: Hollowfox Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:48 PM The town I live in has just released it's long-term plan. According to the map, this includes a road that runs right through my house. Before I saw the map, there was a three to one chance that this would happen, if it ever happened at all. I thought that the wetlands and the gorge in back of the house had us out of the running, but apparently not. Leaving out all the Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy jokes, does anybody have any suggestions as to where to start trying to prevent this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Peace Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:50 PM Where do you live? Country, county, town. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: kendall Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:54 PM How friendly are you with your rep. to congress? |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Hollowfox Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:02 PM Wow, that was fast! Sorry, I posted the same question to a smaller forum that's mostly USA. I live In Youngstown, Ohio, USA. The website is at www.youngstown2010.com, if that helps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Bunnahabhain Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:03 PM Panic and get angry now, as there's nothing you can do until Monday. By then you'll be calmer, and more able to deal with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Hollowfox Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:05 PM Well, he's a Republican, I'm a registered Democrat in a Democratic stronghold. On the other hand, our Democratic mayor endorsed George W in the last election. And of course we're most famous for corruption on governmant. Should be interesting. @#$%, I hate letter-writing and dealing with politicians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Peace Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:06 PM 1) Start today. 2) Don't expect to win. 3) Get appraisals done on your house. 4) Check the laws in your State to do with the State's responsibilities to you as the owner of property they may expropriate. I don't mean to sound grim, Hollowfox. But you have to think two ways. If you win, good. But if you lose, you'll want the best buck you can get for it. I will do some digging on the 'net and post here if appropriate and I'll message you if not. Bruce |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: gnu Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:10 PM Make as many (low cost) improvements as possible to inflate the price they will have to pay upon expropriation. The only way to fight something like this is to propose a better alternative. Generally speaking, the alternatives have already been analysed and found to be worse from a rational (engineering) point of view or from a political (rich businessmens') point of view. Generally, you are fucked. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Hollowfox Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:17 PM Honestly, Bunnahabhain, my friend, I probably won't get on the computer until Monday. And I couldn't do much then in the Halls of Justice as it's a national holiday. Right now I'm gathering information and advice regarding strategy and tactics. I've done with the panic and anger, except having to put in all the time and labor that this will probably need. Worse than writing a term paper. grumph. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: gnu Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:25 PM Oh, wait. Wetlands. Find some kind of wild flora or fauna that are endangered and get some. Put it / them in your wetlands and photograph them and invite the Save the Whatever Society to view it / them and verify that it / they will surely perish if the chosen route is developed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Peace Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:25 PM From a forum where people have discussed the issue of land appropriation. http://forums.cowboysindians.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=210&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=&fpart The State will make you an offer at some point. Then you should consult an attorney/lawyer who is up on law to do with this sort of thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Charley Noble Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:30 PM One of my starting points as an organizer is to identify how many other folks will be directly affected on the proposed right of way, and adjacent to it. Your house may be precious to you but the politicians won't care unless there is a whole bunch of you. I would suggest getting hold of a clean copy of the right of way map, do some labeling so it's more easily understood, and walk along it with a clipboard to assess the level of information and concern about what's being proposed, house to house. Hopefully you'll find a dozen or so people to work with, and then you can discuss how best to focus your joint concerns on the powers that be. It's a lot of work but you sure get to meet some interesting people in the process, and you may even win! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: M.Ted Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:34 PM The wetlands and the gorge are probably your best bet--find our what feds say--there are usually all kinds of federal restrictions and requirements when wetlands are involved--anyway, you said "Long term"--that can be an awful long time--and plans are plans--if you have a profound need to stay there, find out what the process of approvals is, and intervene in as many places as you can. Personally, I would seriously consider moving on-- the fight can go on for a long time, and cost time and money that you will never recoup- at the end of it all, it may not be worth it-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: JohnInKansas Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:44 PM If wetlands or other habitat might be involved, I would suggest a look at what environmentalist lobbying organizations are active in your area and might already have some sort of protest that may already be started, or that could be instigated with a little prompting. An organization with even a few members is more likely to influence those in a position to do something, although even with an effective org, and a valid reason for protest, the chances of success are marginal if there's significant profit in it for someone. Anything in or sufficiently close to the proposed route that might qualify as "historic" might be proposed as a "historic landmark." The protection offered by this is minimal, but it may affect the "environmental impact statement" requirements by bringing the route properties under different statutory restrictions. Challenges to the "impact statement" accuracy have been quite effective in delaying projects in many areas; but only works where there is a statutory requirement for one. I've known people in the Seattle area that spent over 5 years getting a permit to built a single-family residence in a development already platted because of the EI statement demands. If there are wetlands nearby, there likely are "flood plain" homes as well. Suggest to persons who have to buy flood insurance to get their mortgage that destroying the wetlands will inundate them. Find a new and endangered slug on your property and bring it immediately to the attention of both state and Federal wildlife management orgs? Truthfully, there is probably little you can do as a single owner, other than attempt to get the best appraisal possible, and recover as much as you can. Look seriously at local comparables so that you know what your property is worth and what replacement will cost. Local regulations and community interest can have a large impact though, and you need to asses them and figure out how to benefit. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Donuel Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:52 PM The Supream Court redefined wetlands. Even a small lake has no protection. Property seizure can happen for more than just roads. If Starbucks or Walmart wants your land the county will often just give it to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: open mike Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:30 PM Do you own your house? light a !@#$%^& reduction candle for starters.. then contact others along the path and join together, to express your concerns. is this proposed road a city, county, state, or federal project? that would determine who is responsible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: GUEST Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:23 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:48 PM Hollowfox, we're currently in a lawsuit involving a similar situation. I'd be happy to share some things with you privately; it's best you have accurate info up front. It's easy for uninformed, well-meaning people to offer advice, but free advice is worth just what you pay for it. (My advice included...;-)) The lawyer route can be expensive, but state law is especially important in these matters. PM me if you want details. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: harpgirl Date: 18 Feb 05 - 11:33 PM I agree with gargoyle (wow). Decide how much money you think your house is worth and tack on thirty-five percent and offer to sell it to the city before they seize it under the concept of eminent domain. The process of acquiring the property is called condemnation. Although consent is not required, under due process, the owner must receive a fair hearing and just compensation for the property. But if they get to that point because you have not agreed to sell, in my opinion you will likely not get a fair price. It's like a divorce. You get the best settlement at the beginning when your husband is still feeling guilty. Given time spent in wrangling, he will get stingy! Don't bother with the artsy-fartsy politico advice given here. Get your money and get out! Find a better place! As I always say, "When the cave is too dirty to clean, MOVE OUT!" love,harpgirl |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Feb 05 - 11:10 AM In addition to the previous advice--any chance the road cannot be built because the slope is too great for county or state specifications? My neighbors and I fought and won against a developer on those grounds. We had to go to Circuit Court to testify, but it was definitely worth it. And, as pointed out earlier, in the struggle you really do get to meet and bond with your neighbors. Now the city, admittedly a very environmentally aware place, has bought the area for a permanent green space. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Mudlark Date: 19 Feb 05 - 09:24 PM Hollowfax...no helpful advice, I fear, but I love my place and know what turmoil I'd be facing in your shoes. I hope something, somehow, can be done. You have my sympathy... |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: GUEST Date: 19 Feb 05 - 10:11 PM wot a gal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: LadyJean Date: 19 Feb 05 - 11:19 PM From the lawyer's daughter. Find an attorney who specializes in these kinds of cases. Your county bar association will have someone they can reccomend. Or there may be someone in your local S.C.A. group. I know a woman here in Pennsylvania who does make a specialty in this kind of case. She's in the local S.C.A. so she's easy to contact. But I don't know how much good she can do in Ohio. She may be able to reccomend someone good in your area. NOTE Find an attorney who specializes in eminent domain cases. Don't talk to the nice guy who did your mother's will. That's like seein a podiatrist when you're pregnant. Now the nice guy who did your mother's will may know someone with that kind of expertise. And you may get a better deal at a lower price if you're a friend of a friend. But talk to an attorney. Most lawyers are decent, honest, people. There's probably one who can help you keep your house. OH! Talk to your neighbors. If they don't want the road, you've got allies. Good luck! |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: open mike Date: 20 Feb 05 - 01:04 AM Why look in the Society for Creative Anachronism for legal advice? It has been a REAL long time since i heard anyone say this: "Most lawyers are decent, honest, people." Is there a local school, union hall or place where you can organize a meeting between those concerned? Perhaps there is an advocacy agency of some sort who will help neighbors colabborate on this. It is good to know which side of the issue people are on. Often Libraries have public meeting rooms. See if there is already an organization which might agree with your position...such as environmental group, etc. and ask them to champion your cause...network!! No doubt the process of changing the zoning, or whatever might be required will include public meetings. find the most articulate speakers to represent your views and concerns and those of the others who have similar positions. attend city council, county planning commission or whatever meetings to become informed of all the aspects of the issue. take notes and document what is said by either side. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Hollowfox Date: 21 Feb 05 - 01:42 PM hehe, Open Mike, that's because both LadyJean and I are in the SCA. I have met a couple of decent lawyers; one even plays a pretty fgood ragtime piano. Many thanks for all the advice so far. My problem was mostly where to go first in what you might call a target-rich environment. Some of the other tips will come in handy as well. The more angles I can use the better. Thanks, all. Mary |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Feb 05 - 01:46 PM Mary.... remember, it's the life you live there that is precious, desperately from the four walls you live it in. If you have to move, please, photograph it ALL as it is, before you start to pack and dismantle it. It will mean so much to you. In fact I would say start now-- it's a good way of running on two tracks at once-- fighting AND facing having to leave. Wish I could be there. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: katlaughing Date: 21 Feb 05 - 03:08 PM Just came across an article about an ongoing dispute in New London, CT, near where we used to live. It seems the US Supreme Court is going to hear the case. You may read it HERE. Briefly, the City of New London decided, several years ago, to take over some beautiful old historic homes on the Thames River in order to build a bunch of crap for private enterprise. Their argument, which won in the state supreme court, was it would be for the good of all with increased employment. It will be interesting to see if the Supremes agree. Good luck! |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Bev and Jerry Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:05 PM Don't suppose this helps much but it might brighten your day a little. Bev and Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: GUEST,Gods Child Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:13 PM You can't take it with you so why hang on to it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: PoppaGator Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:57 PM I suppose your proposed efforts are worth a try, but you really need to assess your realistic chances of prevailing. Also, keep in mind that you could "win," by having the road moved just to the other side of your property line, but what kind of victory would that be? If, that is, your property ends up being adjacent to this new road (rather than displaced by the road), it will still be radically different from what you have now. It may be that your realistic options are two: 1) Take the money and run, and 2) Explore the possibilities of preventing change, satisfy your curiosity, do anything you can to increase your payout, and then take the money and run. Your best strategy might well be be to concentrate on maximizing your compensation, so that you will be able to find a new home that has comparable qualities to your current home. Anything you do in your effort to fight the condemnation should also tend towards increasing your payoff should loss of your property indeed be inevitable. Please avoid doing anything that would create a lose/lose situation, where your compensation would be adversely affected by your actions should you lost the main argument ~ don't gamble with that property, which is not only your home but also your single most important financial asset! A good lawyer familiar with the local political landscape should be able to provide advice (anachronist or not!). |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff Date: 21 Feb 05 - 06:04 PM Invest in bullets! |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 22 Feb 05 - 11:59 AM PoppaGator, you just said exactly what I was going to say. Thanks. Peter Woodruff: get stuffed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: GUEST,greenman Date: 12 Mar 05 - 10:40 PM Harpgirl, I was looking at an old thread and you expressed an interest to know what happened to the members of "County Down" Anne Zimmerman is Anne Dodson, who has continued with her music both solo and with the group "Different Shoes". She also has several solo CDs. She was host of a statewide radio show "Folktracks" on our NPR affiliate until they went to more news and less music. Lately she has been producing recordings for others in the folk scene, mostly the Camden (Maine) crowd. Debbie Suran ran a musical instrument catalog and built hammered dulcimers on Deer Isle. She is now moderating an online instrument design & build forum (at least I think that's what it is) That's the dirt on "County Down" over and out |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Bobert Date: 12 Mar 05 - 11:01 PM Well, well, well... Youngstown, ya say? Yer screwed... Heck, they got Jimmy Trafficant locked up and that ain't good 'cause that means the other thugs are in control.... Ahhhh. like where's yer house? Near Meridian? I can't believe that Ohio is gonna spend any money in Yonks-town and I know that Yonks-town itself ain't got no money 'er they wouldn't have let their downtown fold... Oh yeah, you all got you a high-rise jail house... Great... I'd rather have Jenette back up and lightin' up the skies at night... You know what I mean... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: GUEST Date: 13 Mar 05 - 01:12 AM DO WHAT MOST YANKS DO GET OUT YOUR GUN |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: harpgirl Date: 01 Jul 05 - 01:19 PM So what has happened Hollowfox? |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: DougR Date: 02 Jul 05 - 01:27 AM In view of the liberal members of the U. S. Supreme Court's last ruling on eminent domain, you may have no choice Hollowfox (assuming you are a U. S. citizen). DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: CarolC Date: 02 Jul 05 - 12:19 PM The recent decision by the Supreme Court will have no effect on this case whatever, DougR (but I'm sure you knew that already). This issue is about a road, not private development. People have been losing their homes through eminent domain to roads, railroads, dams, and any number of other "public works" projects for many decades. (But I'm sure you knew that already.) BTW, people have been losing their homes through eminent domain to private developement for decades as well. It's just that until now, only poor people have been effected. The recent Supreme Court decision has now made the issue of using eminent domain for private development more democratic because now, the same rules apply to everybody. Is that why you only started to care about it now, rather than when only poor people were being effected? |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: artbrooks Date: 03 Jul 05 - 09:45 AM Any chance of an ancient Indian village or colonial battlefield? A lot of public construction in the western US has been relocated because of archeological issues? |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage Date: 03 Jul 05 - 10:48 AM I've seen an unscrupulous builder calmly fill wetlands THEN approach the county for building permits, and a county claim property under eminent domain then do absolutely nothing with it once they have it. With this latest Supreme Court ruling, if the community can show that there is an economic benefit (such as an improved tax base) then they can take the land (unless your state law says differently). But since housing is a wash as far as taxes are concerned, taking a house just to build another house isn't good enough (so they say, anyway). Here in Fort Worth near where I live there was a holdout on some acreage in the path of a busy boulevard, but the city eventually won. I was torn on the decision--the road makes travel much more convenient, but I could get to the same place by a different road and I did enjoy looking across the remnant piece of prairie while I was driving around it. Now some builder's toadstool houses are popping up shoulder-to-shoulder (5' setback in Fort Worth makes those houses awfully crowded) along that road. If you enjoy the place where you're living, I'd go with the advice of some above, and get the best price you can as soon as you can. Then move somewhere far away so you don't go past this place regularly to see the mess they make of it. Otherwise, it'll at worst break your heart, or if you're luckier, just annoy the heck out of you. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: Flash Company Date: 03 Jul 05 - 11:55 AM I am speaking from the UK, and may be a little out of turn by so doing, but I have been Chairman of a Residents Association, and rather imagine US politicians, like UK ones, listen to those who make the most noise. The Rules are fairly simple, and most of them have already been highlighted here, but to summarise:- 1) Band together, the more people shouting the better. 2) Petitions are a waste of time, individual letters, hundreds of them, carry more weight. 3) Legal assistance is imperative, we employed a planning solicitor and a town planning consultant. The town planner was particularly effective, he chewed up and spat out developers with one hand tied behind his back! Thing to remember is that planners in local government are not necessarily the best, if they were they would be earning a lot more in the private sector. 4) Investigate that wetlands habitat thing for all you are worth. 5) As someone else said, watch your back, winning can sometimes be worse than losing. 6 Above all, ensure that they know it is going to cost them to make you go away. Hope you get lucky, I know how I would feel! FC |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: GUEST Date: 03 Jul 05 - 01:20 PM I have long suspected that government in the UK, both local and national, is mainly there to 'rubber-stamp' the excesses of property developers and road-builders. I have always imagined that the situation is even worse in the US - especially under the Republicans. When are we, the victims of this evil shit, going wake up and rise up and stop them? Personally, I think that this largely un-noticed (unless it affects us directly) conspiracy is one of the greatest threats to democracy that we currently face. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God be with you! My house is in danger From: Kaleea Date: 03 Jul 05 - 05:09 PM God be with you! I say, alert the local & national media, & everyone who stands to lose their homes to the greedy rich do the same until the evil ones on crapitol hill get the message that their arses are going to be removed from office is this is going to be tolerated. If the supreme court can decide that our right to our own property, not to mention life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, can be denied so the rich can get richer then it is up to WE the common people to let those "in power" know that we will not tolerate anymore losses of our constitutional rights! WE have the power of the vote! Write, call, & email all of your city, state, & federal representatives and tell them that we are mad as #$%^&*!!! and we will not tolerate them taking any more. You'd be amazed at the power of righteous indigntion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: DougR Date: 03 Jul 05 - 05:46 PM More democratid, Carol C? So you think what the Supremes did was correct? No wonder we rarely agree on a subject. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: CarolC Date: 03 Jul 05 - 05:49 PM So you approve of forcing only the poor from their homes for private devopment then DougR? |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: CarolC Date: 03 Jul 05 - 06:17 PM ...and I can only echo your sentiments in this regard. No wonder we rarely agree on a subject. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: MaineDog Date: 03 Jul 05 - 08:44 PM You have to go with the flow. Our honorable Supreme court has shown us the way to proceed. Build a new wing on your house, and add a bar, a brothel, and a child porn movie studio. Be sure to pay lots of taxes on all of these lucrative enterprises. Maybe also a baby part factory just for good measure. You will then easily be able to prove that a road thru your property would be un-Constitutional, since it would clearly reduce the tax take. Good luck MD |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: CarolC Date: 03 Jul 05 - 10:40 PM I suspect that what the Supreme Court has in mind (at least the "liberal" members) with their recent decision, is to get people like DougR (who don't give a poop as long as it's only poor people who are having their homes confiscated for private development... remember "urban renewal?), off their duffs and lighting a fire under Congress to legislate a fair and equitable solution to what has been problem for only the poor up until now. Sometimes you have to appeal to people's sense of enlightened self interest before you can get them to do what's right. If DougR thinks he stands a chance of losing his own home, he's going to care a lot more than if it's just some poor people living in inner cities who are losing their homes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: My house is in danger From: dianavan Date: 03 Jul 05 - 10:55 PM In 1972 (in Seattle) Safeway bulldozed the homes of many elderly people on Capitol Hill. I vowed to never shop at Safeway after that. This has not hurt Safeway in the least. They (and others) continue to displace the elderly, poor and oppressed. Why do you think homlessness is such a big problem? We continue to gentrify our neighborhoods at the expense of others. As long as we continue to support supermarkets, big boxes and more traffic in our cities, housing will be a secondary concern. Why should anyone care as long as they can get their goods for a few pennies less? |
