BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release

Subject: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 10:16 AM

Will this matter to his beloved evangelical right wing nuts? Will this matter to the Republicans who will be up for re-election soon? Will the media respond to this story AT ALL, considering the position he now holds?

I mean, even Rush apologized for his habit.

But then, this prez is da king o' dat river you know where...

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 10:51 AM

He didn't admit to having a habit in the excerpts I saw. He said he didn't want kids to do what he tried. But, hey, if altering it gets him out of the cockpit any sooner, I'll buy your version.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 11:07 AM

It was on the front page of our local paper that supported Bush in the election. So the story is being covered.

As much as I dislike shrub I think it's pretty slimy to record a man without his knowledge - and then claim to be his friend. I've got no problem with what he did 20 or 30 years ago. I've got a big problem with what shrub is up to right now.

And to think that he felt that Ashcroft should be on the Supreme Court ??

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 11:27 AM

Read the entire thing at the NYTimes. They are the ones who verified the authenticity of the tapes, and it was their reporter who listened to them.

There is no question that Bush is alluding to his past drug behavior in these tapes.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: dwditty
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 11:31 AM

I haven't heard the whole thing, but the spin seems to make shrub look better not worse. My guess is this tape was made last week with his full knowledge. Nothing like a good conspiracy, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 11:35 AM

The tapes were made from 1998 to 2000. Perhaps some of you should read up on this before shooting your mouths off about what this is and what it isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: dwditty
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 11:44 AM

I have only read that the tapes were made between 1998 and 2000. Obviously Guest has definitive information....or he/she believes everything in print.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 11:47 AM

Ah - the Expert Guest. Who care's what the man did decades ago when he's up to no good now ? I'm sure you're ready to take a UA - right ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 12:05 PM

What a lazy, arrogant bunch all of you are. This is a serious revelation of historic significance. Of course, it doesn't surprise me in the least that the usual Mudcat bozos here can't quite get their heads around something they only hear about on MSNBC or talk radio.

Here is a link to the NY Times article

Because you must be registered, I'll copy and paste some of the very long (5 page) article.

In Secretly Taped Conversations, Glimpses of the Future President
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

Published: February 20, 2005


WASHINGTON, Feb. 19 - As George W. Bush was first moving onto the national political stage, he often turned for advice to an old friend who secretly taped some of their private conversations, creating a rare record of the future president as a politician and a personality.

In the last several weeks, that friend, Doug Wead, an author and former aide to Mr. Bush's father, disclosed the tapes' existence to a reporter and played about a dozen of them.

Variously earnest, confident or prickly in those conversations, Mr. Bush weighs the political risks and benefits of his religious faith, discusses campaign strategy and comments on rivals. John McCain "will wear thin," he predicted. John Ashcroft, he confided, would be a "very good Supreme Court pick" or a "fabulous" vice president. And in exchanges about his handling of questions from the news media about his past, Mr. Bush appears to have acknowledged trying marijuana.

Mr. Wead said he recorded the conversations because he viewed Mr. Bush as a historic figure, but he said he knew that the president might regard his actions as a betrayal. As the author of a new book about presidential childhoods, Mr. Wead could benefit from any publicity, but he said that was not a motive in disclosing the tapes.

The White House did not dispute the authenticity of the tapes or respond to their contents. Trent Duffy, a White House spokesman, said, "The governor was having casual conversations with someone he believed was his friend." Asked about drug use, Mr. Duffy said, "That has been asked and answered so many times there is nothing more to add."

The conversations Mr. Wead played offer insights into Mr. Bush's thinking from the time he was weighing a run for president in 1998 to shortly before he accepted the Republican nomination in 2000. Mr. Wead had been a liaison to evangelical Protestants for the president's father, and the intersection of religion and politics is a recurring theme in the talks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: dwditty
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 12:30 PM

Yes, Guest, I too read the article. I just don't happen to believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: kendall
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 12:48 PM

Is it any worse than what Linda Tripp did?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 12:51 PM

"This is a serious revelation of historic significance"

I disagree. I find historical significance in a man starting a war in which thousands were killed without any real evidence. If he's smoking reefers now in the Oval office - then that's a problem. If he did it in the past it's none of my concern.

Please explain your ideas on why it's historical significant. If you're not too lazy or arrogant to do so. Please educate this member of the great unwashed masses.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 12:59 PM

And guest - Let's not jump to conclusions here. Let's get clear what you're upset about. Are you upset because Bush smoked pot ? Are you upset because he was secretly taped admitting it ? Are you upset because we're not upset ? What gives here ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 01:06 PM

What is of value in the 'Toke Tapes' is how Bush tried to cover up what he did, and his political strategizing about how any revelations regarding his misspent youth would effect his chances of being elected.

In other words, these tapes are historically significant because they are a record of Bush's own words in an ongoing, evolving discussion of his religious and political views and strategies for his first presidential election campaign, with a right wing Christian conservative who had worked for his father's presidency (and been fired, BTW).

What is it about the article that you "don't believe" dwditty? The White House has acknowledged the tapes are authentic. The NY Times reporter who wrote the article is reporting what was on the tapes, which will be made public when Wead dies. I don't think the reporter has a good reason to lie about what is on the tapes, quite the contrary. This is quite a coup for any reporter, to be allowed to listen to tapes made of a sitting president, discussing his political and religious views and strategies during his campaign for president.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 01:21 PM

In answer to your questions Wesley, I've always been concerned that Bush was an alcoholic who did drugs, and then had a religious conversion when he finally quit the drugs and alcohol. To me, that is the mark of an unstable person, no matter how long they might have been clean and sober. I've seen other people "find Jesus" in post-rehab/cleaning up phases of their lives go on to make very bad decisions rooted in their "faith". Invading and occupying Iraq is an excellent example of such piss poor decision making capacity on the part of former alcoholics and drug addicts, which is what Bush is, after all.

The information on these tapes is quite illuminating of just such a propensity in Bush, IMO.

I'm not upset, BTW. Just perturbed by the idiotic reactions exhibited in this thread. This isn't the equivalent of blow jobs, interns, and soap opera intrigue with political enemies a la Linda Tripp. This is serious shit about a sitting president who is running the nation as if he were an evangelical emperor. He has invaded and is occupying two countries thus far, and is currently saber rattling in Europe in a thinly veiled attempt to threaten military attacks, and possible invasion and occupation of two more as we speak. His ally in the religion is a fanatical Zionist government, headed by a war criminal.

You do the math boys, if you are up to it, and think about why these revelations might matter.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 01:30 PM

I toked. You toked. We all toked and sucked smoke.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: dwditty
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 01:41 PM

Well, Guest...it seems we are on the same side of the coin. For whatever reason, I think Bush felt it time to turn his past behavior - his drug use - into a political advantage. I don't think Bush give two shits about what my kids think of him, but it sure will make a lot of people say....awwwww, what a sweet guy to not expose the innocents to the fact that a president once used drugs. It plays well to those that think like the guy who sits behind me.

As far as the NY Times, etc....well...again, just my opinion, but the information that comes out of the WHite House or any other government organization is just what the disseminators want us to know....no more...no less.

So are these tapes historically significant? Sure they are. Just like most of the other stuff come out of Skull & Bones.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 01:45 PM

Guest - I guess I'm just not as suprised or shocked as you are to find out that a politician has lied.I rather expect it. Is it possible that this story is a convenient way to air your greviences against "former alcoholics and drug addicts" and a "fanatical Zionist government" ?? I'm not trying to bait you. I'm trying to figure out why anyone would be so shocked at this story. My initial reaction was moe along the lines of "Ho hum - big deal". I'm more bothered by the actions of shrub than the path that got him there.

I respect your choice to see it differently however.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Teresa
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 01:59 PM

Yeah, yeah, it's a tempest in a teapot, while thousands are dying in Iraq.

In a way, it might be a good thing if the religious right starts to question Bush's character. Then maybe those of us who are against the war in Iraq will be heard.

Bush is no different from a lot of born-again addicts. There are lots of them. He's in a position of power, however, so that makes things more tricky. However, I don't think all former addicts are power-hungry the way he is. That's the personality trait that truly scares me.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:01 PM

I am not the least bit concerned that Bush tried 'pot' in his younger days. What is disturbing is the great lengths he will go to in order to secure the votes of the 'moral majority'. I wonder if they will think so highly of him now.

I also wonder if they will begin to understand that his values are not what they seem. Will the 'religious right' understand that Bush will be anything they want him to be as long as he gets their vote?

Just goes to show that nobody in D.C. can be trusted. Its all image!

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:10 PM

I think a lot of his supporters will focus on the advice that was given to him by James Robison - something like "it's not important that you've sinned - what have you learned from the experience ? ".

I doubt that this will change a lot of peoples minds. Those that support him will continue to support him. Those of us that don't - we won't change our minds either.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:16 PM

Guest:

Your recognition of the pattern of addiction followed by revelation and going on to bad thinking is spot on. The revelation in this case is purely a placeholder to hold at bay all the confusion which he previously solved, but only multiplied, by using booze and drugs. You don't escape your ghosts by burying them under booze or drugs, nor by pretending to get religion. The psychosis resolves when faced as it is, not before.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:33 PM

When Clinton lied no one died; when Bush lies, thousands die...every day. SO where is Ken Starr now?

Like the rest of most of you, I don't care that he did it and am more concerned, nay downright pissed, at what he's been doing recently, but I DO care that he has lied about it.

For any who have not signed the Impeach Bush petition, I would urge you to do so.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:40 PM

OK, let me add I know the tapes aren't revealing any information about previous drug and alcohol abuse that wasn't known previously. That is a given.

What I think should be stirring up some discussion (not debate, discussion) is how Bush's logic/thinking has or hasn't changed since then, and what that change or lack of change means for his future decision making powers.

My concern at this point isn't just Iraq and Afghanistan. My concern now is with Syria and Iran, and Bush potentially lighting yet another fuse (with Sharon's help) on the powderkeg region.

I think we should be studying the transcripts of these tapes, and have some discussion of what it means about Bush's thinking on a policy level TODAY.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:53 PM

What concerns me most is the continuing pattern of evasion and denial by Bush of his blinkered thinking and evangelical logic. Just like he was in denial and evasive about his "wild youth" in the presidential campaign, so has he been in denial and evasive about the whole post-9/11 security threat, the rationalizations for invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq, the way he has dealt with with other players in Europe, the Middle East and Asia, that sort of thing.

I mean, if the Bush worldview isn't all about evasion and denial of reality...know what I mean? Has that changed since these tapes were made, for instance, or become even more pronounced?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:57 PM

What else is new?

I notice he only mentions the pot and the booze, and leaves out the coke habit which everyone seems to say he had.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 03:16 PM

I think making it about the "tokes" diverts attention away from what is really interesting about the article (and also presumably, the tapes). GW Bush is so totally the right candidate for the Neocons. They are a group of people with monolithic ambitions of global proportions. GW Bush is a politician with monolithic ambitions of global proportions. He thinks like a monarch (or a dictator) who sees himself as having an inherent right to hold absolute power...

"It's me versus the world...The good news is, the world is on my side. Or more than half of it."

Forget about the tokes. Let's talk about egos and lofty ambitions.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 03:26 PM

"What else is new?" indeed, Kevin. Amen.

Not only is none of this stuff news to me, I don't thing it will mean much of anything to anybody.

I would like to think that some of the wide-eyed innocents among his "moral majority" supporters will be shocked,or will at least perceive his hypocrisy, but I'm afraid that most of them will go along with the party line that all is forgiven now that he has been "born again."

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 03:33 PM

Well, at least Carol gets it. BTW, I stole the "Toke Tapes" from the Winnipeg Sun headline. My guess is that may be the name that sticks for these tapes, hence my decision to use it in the thread title.

Sadly, most respondents to the thread think this means the purpose of the thread is to discuss Dubya's past habits, or maybe that it should be about discrediting him among his supporters--a feat which simply cannot be accomplished because his supporters think the exact same way he does.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:24 PM

Who cares.

However, it will be interesting to see the spin that the White House puts on it. If they say that waht happened decades ago has no bearing on his performance now, the maybe they'll explain why wht Kerry did (or didn't do) decades ago mattered so much in the pre-election campaigning. Meanwhile, uh, Georgie, pass that over here, will ya?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 06:09 PM

Cognition cannot be accurately ascribed to the "moral majority". Their M.O is the antithesis of thought.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 06:22 PM

I would expect the White House to do with this story what they do with all the stories that could be damaging to Their Holy Emperor--ignore it.

Hell, Hunter Thompson's suicide story currently has about twice as many articles/hits at Google as this story does.

"Pop icon of the counter-culture blows brains out in Aspen" (sorry HST) is much sexier a story than Dubya dryly discussing how he is going to fudge on his drug and boozing years with an evangelical political hack in his 1st prez campaign, doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Bert
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 06:24 PM

It's not that he used drugs himself that is the problem. It's that he's the leader of a government that is every day throwing thousands of people into jail for doing the very same thing.

Come on George, be honest for once in your effing life and make drugs legal.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 06:56 PM

Interesting point, Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: DougR
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 07:13 PM

McGrath: folks saying he had a "coke" habit doesn't mean it's true, right? So he may have tried "coke" and may have tried weed. Paraphrasing Kim, "Let he who is with sin, etc. etc."

I don't think the tapes will harm him. They merely show that the Bush of that period is the Bush of today. What you see (hear) is what you get.

I do like the conspiracy theory I heard today on TV, though, that Carl Rove released the tapes and that he also released the fake memos Dan Rather used in his "expose`" of Bush's TNG duty.

This ought to keep you lefties occupied for a few days, though, I guess.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 07:42 PM

There is no point at all in dragging these up. Anything new on them relates to ages back. They don't tell us anything much new about him, and as he's not standing for president again, they don't matter. Attack his policies if you don't like them, they matter.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 10:00 PM

With Clinton, the fact that he admitted to trying marijuana (even if he "didn't inhale [!?"]) way back when was a really big deal to the Right. To the evangelicals and the Right in general, the well-established fact that Bush snorted coke, drank like a fish, and apparently sampled roll-yer-owns didn't and won't cut any ice. He's seen the error of his ways, been "Saved," and is now doing God's work.

Uh-huh. Yup. Right.

As I see it, if Bush is not currently spending his time stoned out of his mind, or stewed to the gills, or both, as he's presiding over the affairs of the country (and I don't believe that he is), then this whole thing is a non-story. What really concerns me is what he keeps doing when he's straight and stone-cold sober.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Bert
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 10:12 PM

...So he may have tried "coke" and may have tried weed... You're right Doug. Who hasn't these days? So why is it still illegal?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 10:20 PM

Calling it a "conspiracy theory" doesn't make it untrue, DougR. Carl Rove built his whole nasty little career on tactics like those. And they're quite effective, too, as you can see from the results.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 11:23 PM

What????????????????????????? I can't believe a word of this, I thought he was into cocaine.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 08:20 AM

According to the NY Times story, he also talks about skating around the issue of his cocaine use. But the way he talks about his marijuana use sounds very confessional, so that is what the media is grabbing onto for now.

It's too bad it's all fixated on his past drug use. The much more important revelations in the tape are about how his religious beliefs shape and inform all of his political positions. Now THAT is the conversation we Americans should be having about these tapes, not the drugs (which is old news).

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 08:31 AM

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned pretzels yet...

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 09:34 AM

Kim C said:

I toked. You toked. We all toked and sucked smoke.

No, "we all" did not.   I never did, nor did a lot of other people. Don't try to universalize your behavior in an effort to make yourself seem normal.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 01:39 PM

Point 1:   I agree wholeheartedly with what GUEST says (22 Feb 05 - 08:20 AM). It isn't Bush's drug and alcohol use in the past (well established) or now (extremely doubtful) that I'm concerned with. It's his belief that he's doing "God's work." That's what's really scary!

Point 2:   Uncle DaveO is exactly right. And I knew a lot of people back then--in the folk scene and/or the peace/civil rights scene--who were not into drugs at all. I was not into drugs. Ever! A fair number of people around me were, especially toward the middle Sixties, but I never touched the stuff.

I was at that "awkward age" back then:   two young to be a beatnik, too old to be a hippy.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 01:47 PM

"They merely show that the Bush of that period is the Bush of today." DougR.

Is that a typo, Doug? I love it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 01:50 PM

Actually, on second and third thought, I apologize for saying what "a lazy, arrogant bunch all of you are"
I should have done more homework first and done some more original thinking rather than force a lot of quotations from articles already on the net down your throats.

I can see now that this is an unfair propagation of private conversations which probably means that a new tell-all book is on the horizon. I will buy it immediately it comes to my neighbourhood.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 02:09 PM

Guest 22 Feb 05 - 01:50 PM

Nice try impersonating me. You seem to enjoy doing that a lot.

If you had your head out of your derriere on this subject, you would know that the man's book was released after last November's election.

I would suggest the "unfair" charge is spurious, particular when compared to this president's behavior (ie suspending habeas corpus for his "enemies list" and a few other nasty little details like that).

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: DougR
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 06:27 PM

Nope, Ebbie, not a typo. Perhaps it could have been said better. I'll try to clarify what I wrote:the George Bush who was governor of the state of Texas is the same George Bush that was elected TWICE president of the United States. Comprendo?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 10:27 PM

GWB was once elected Governor and ONCE elected President.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: DougR
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 06:06 PM

Now, now, brucie, good try, but try as you might, you cannot re-write history just because that's the way you would like to have it. GWB won both elections, even after Florida recounts. That's history.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Bush 'Toke Tapes' Release
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 06:29 PM

It's also history that if it weren't for the electoral college system - that if each person's vote in this country counted equally -
Bush would never have been prsident; wanta dispute that?