BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq

Subject: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 06:15 PM

Sorry about the typo in the Subject Title. This issue cropped up in another thread so I thought I'd start a new one.

New York Times Article Here

I heard her (Ms. Sgrena, a 56-year-old reporter for the communist daily Il Manifesto) interviewed by the BBC. Her English is not too good, but it is clear she maintains the Italians were not aware of a checkpoint or demand to stop. The Americans say they fired at the engine block. She told her English interviewer that she and her guard were in the back seat. The driver leapt out of the car and tried to identify himself, apparently he wasn't hit, though the car was destroyed.

That's all I've heard, other then that Rumsfeld apologized. Clearly a tragic situation and again, I'll wait a bit for more information. If the Americans didn't make it clear it was a checkpoint, the apology should come from the top. But right now it isn't clear. I thought everybody is supposed to stop at checkpoints which would make them pretty obvious.

I was told a true story about a man who drove through a military base checkpoint on purpose. He was depressed and trying to get shot and he succeeded, and that was within a city in the US.

According to the interview, she said they were approaching the airport, which is a natural place for a checkpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 06:42 PM

Did you say for the Communist daily? Ipso facto my friend!She claims it was a deliberate act.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 06:49 PM

When you dont have any exciting news you try and create some? I think it was done on purpose; and is a valuable lesson for all journalists to take war seriously.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:52 PM

It's just another sad case of collateral damage.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 08:03 PM

It's a war zone. Journalists are no more protected than anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 09:01 PM

Unfortunately the lady herself is saying that the car was not speeding, and that she was deliberately ambushed with no sounds or warning shots - 400 bullets struck the car - she was carrying information that she says is detrimental to the USA you see ... more conspiracies, no doubt...

Wonder how long now before the Italian Politicians bend to the local popular pressure to leave Iraq now?

The US troops on the ground are doubtless scared, terrified that any vehicle, or anything by the side of the road may explode and kill them. The British had many years to get used to that sort of situation in Ireland, while US money was being channelled to the IRA - the US troops are in comparison poorly trained for the sort of situation they now find themselves in - not really their fault I agree!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 09:01 PM

I suspect that a lot of people are getting accidentally shot through misunderstanding and nervous soldiers. Most of them you won't hear this much about, however. If it convinces the Italian government to listen to its own populace and pull its troops out of Iraq, fine with me. Italy should not be tacitly supporting this oil war anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:11 AM

From CBC news:

"The U.S. military said the Americans used hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and fired warning shots to get the speeding car to stop at the roadblock.

But in an interview with Italian La 7 TV, Sgrena disputed the claim, saying "there was no bright light, no signal." She also has said the car was travelling at normal speed.

Her editor, Gabriele Polo, said Italian officials told him 300-400 rounds were fired at the car. Italian military officials said two other intelligence agents were wounded in the shooting; U.S. officials said it was only one. "

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: NH Dave
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 02:46 AM

Tonight NBC News showed the sign the Italians drove past, giving notice that there was a check point ahead and that all vehicles must stop. The sign was written in English and in what I suppose to be Arabic or Iraqi. I suppose if the Americans had considered that Italian intel experts and their drivers could not read English, they would have written it in Italian as well.

President Bush has apologised, and assured the Italians that there would be a full inquiry.

On the other hand, our troops have had their fill of locals trying for instant salvation ignoring such signs, detonating their explosives and killing everyone around, so we have learned that prompt, well though out action frequently foils those plans.

I spent many months sent to various countries where English is not the predominant language. I felt it incumbent on me to learn how the locals wrote signs telling automobile drivers to stop, yield, one way, and avoid other instantly deadly situations.

I feel very sorry for the Italians, the newswoman, and especially for the heroic Italian Secret Service Man, but accidents and death are a constant companion in situations like these. This is why we call it war.   

I expect that as this story plays out, everyone will be found to have been doing his job as detailed in his operating instructions and litle additional blame will be laid on the American troops or the Italian driver.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:44 AM

.. as bloody usual ...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:59 AM

Well here's what Kendall said about it in another thread: "Over there, you are surrounded by friend and foe who all look alike. They (the Italians) asked for it when they refused to stop."

So it's obviously a good bit more simple than some mudcatters have realised - though I'm not sure in what way an Italian journalist looks like an Iraqi insurgent (or Syrian insurgent for that matter). Makes you wonder why Bush expressed regret, why Rumsefld apologised and why the US has launched an inquiry.

It's just a pity Ms Sgrena and her colleagues have a government and head of state to speak up for them. If they'd been Iraqi, with no such namby-pamby luxury to speak of, they could have ben murdered without the slightest risk of embarrassment to the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:25 AM

She was quoted as saying it was dark, there were no lights or signals of any kind and suddenly a tank opened up with about 400 rounds... doubtless why she believes that it was an ambush - of course the soldiers with their little green goggles would have seen clearly the approaching vehicle from a long distance away ...

Yes, George has promised a whitewash inquiry...

He has had to make a noise, cause the Italian public have been making loud protests about wanting their troops home - I don't know if that is before Xmas... ;-) [Aussie Political Joke!]

Of course now that we know that she works for a Communist Newspaper, all Right Thinking Americans will just doubtless believe George...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:36 AM

I could be wrong but it still seems like another deadly unfortunate incident in a war zone. The Italians probably should have requested an escourt, especially since they were traveling after dark. People do stupid things when they are in a hurry and I think there is some blame to be shared by both the Italians and the U.S. Armed Forces,

No one deserved to die, of course, and this incident will receive much more attention as it's been pointed out than if it happened to an Iraqi.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:42 AM

Another "unfortunate incident", Private Gardi Gardev a member of a Bulgarian patrol was shot dead near Baghdad last Friday, the Bulgarians stated that the firing had come from a nearby US post.
It`s all that heroin they are getting from Afghanastan.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 09:56 AM

No, I think it may be the after-effects of raising some not too bright American teenagers on "shooter" videogames, and then sending them overseas to shoot real people. Then too, it could be that, plus the heroin...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:19 AM

It is only collateral damage so it does not count. Now if it was an American that would be different!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:01 PM

"Another 'unfortunate incident', Private Gardi Gardev a member of a Bulgarian patrol was shot dead near Baghdad last Friday, the Bulgarians stated that the firing had come from a nearby US post."

And if more of the story were included we'd learn that the Bulgarian patrol had been firing at an Iraqi car and that a U.S. communications post was in a direct line of fire behind the car. Oddly enough the U.S. communications post ordered return fire. Apparently the Bulgarians were unaware of the location of the U.S. communications post.

No one deserved to die in this incident either but they did. I suppose the U.S. is ultimately the blame for initiating this discretionary war and occupation, while relying on inaccurate intelligence.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:17 PM

Not what I read in the Guardian [UK], "direct line of fire" was not stated, please do not believe any statment from the US regarding deaths by friendly fire, according to them it is always the other peoples fault, did you ever read anything different?.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:35 PM

"" please do not believe any statment from the Guardian [UK] regarding deaths by friendly fire, according to them it is always the US's fault, did you ever read anything different?. ""


So blind faith in one source is justified, but not in another?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:36 PM

A tank unloads close to 400 rounds on a car and only one person was killed ? Either the gunner is a very poor shot or the folks in the car were VERY lucky. Something doesn't sound right here.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 02:28 PM

Nope, Wesley, sounds about right actually. Machine guns aren't supposed to be deadly accurate, they're not designed to be (that's what snipers are for). They're supposed to lay down a large volume of fire in a short space of time (600 rounds a minute, or thereabouts, per barrel) within a reasonably (not precisely) accurate area to suppress (i.e kill for preference) hostile activity.

A car heading towards you at any sort of normal road speed is probably moving faster than you'd like (machine guns are really anti infantry weapons) & unless the road is dead straight & the car is heading directly towards you...

The saddest part of this is the death of Nicola Calipari, a genuine hero in a world & age that uses superlatives much too freely. The next saddest thing is that no-one will ever know the truth of what happened. The US military is not going to tell the truth, because the military never does (the US is no worse, & not much better, than anyone else in this regard), even if it knows what the truth actually is (not always the easiest thing in the world to establish). The eyewitnesses are in no position to be objective.

But a very brave man is dead as a result. RIP Signor Calipari.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 03:10 PM

Charlie Noble said:

It's just another sad case of collateral damage.

Despite the way that phrase is thrown around in the media, the term "collateral damage" is a term of art in the US military. It does not refer to damage or wounding or death of personnel; it refers to damage to real estate and/or infrastructure, incidental to military operations directed to actual military targets. Thus, damage to a museum, say, beside an attacked strategic bridge would constitute "collateral damage", whereas the wounding or death of someone within the museum is NOT "collateral damage".

It's is a very specific and useful term which, like to many other useful words and phrases in the language, has been thrown around so carelessly that it is likely to cause misunderstanding.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 04:58 PM

One undisputable fact is, that the US are top of the league when it comes to "friendly fire".

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:30 PM

On the button, Raedwulf.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:41 PM

They lead in "unfriendly fire" too, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: gnu
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:52 PM

Top notch. Don't fuck with the eagle til you learn to fly.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Kaleea
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:55 PM

We may never know the whole truth about this & many other aspects of this war, and this is unfortunate. The pentagon poop sheet for the reporters tells us what they want us--the people--to know. The generals & leaders at the top speak of "collateral damage," perhaps as real estate. timothy mcveigh also spoke of collateral damage, but as human lives---that which was necessary to further his cause. Many of the US & UN troops have most assuredly been listed in that category. I see the ones who made it out alive, from what ever where ever hell they were sent to, all the time when I take my father to & from the local VA Medical Center.   "collateral damage" or the injured, MIA, KIA, casualties of war, mysterious illnesses seen in veterans, VietNam vets in the streets. It won't stop as long as politicians keep "taking us" to war as they sit in their posh offices & homes provided at the taxpayers' expense. Oh, yeah. The war at our expense, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:52 PM

One of the initial reports that came out was that the Italians claim that they had been pre-approved to go throught the check-point without having to stop (not a normal circumstance), but that the troops at the check-point had not been so informed. All they knew was that a car was approaching, they signaled it to stop, and it kept on coming, so they did what they were supposed to do. After all, as far as they knew, it could have been loaded with explosives.

But we'll probably never know. Everybody in this one has an ax to grind.

No matter which side you sniff, it smells a bit rotten.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:55 PM

It's Monday night and Ms. Sgrena is making charges that the US targeted her because it disapproves of ransoming the captives taken by insurgent/terrorist/kidnappers.

1) I agree that it is a poor not to say counterproductive policy to ransom such captives.
2) I really doubt that the US targets ransomed captives, particularly as a roadside target.
3) The 'journalist' in question has volunteered this as an unfounded accusation which calls into question her status as a journalist.
4) During an interview with her admittedly bad English a couple days ago, she said she was in the back seat. Now she says she knows what speed they were doing as well as the fact that there were no warnings from the Americans.

So I'm sensing some serious bogosity on the part of Ms Sgrena.

For their part the Americans say it was an impromptu checkpoint, which they do many times for many reasons, this time because there was an American government official due at the airport.

I agrew with Raedwulf that there are no impartial humans involved in this affair, and unless it was on tape we'll never know. But a good man is gone and the spin is gaining momentum.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:08 PM

I don't know why anyone would be surprised by this story, and others of a similar nature.

Remember the first gulf war? The British army lost a total of fourteen men in that one, nine of them killed by one trigger happy pilot in an A10 Tankbuster, who apparently couldn't tell the difference between the obsolete Iraqi vehicles (mostly of Eastern origin), and our own bang up to date personnel carriers.

In every conflict from WW2 to Vietnam and beyond, stories abound of friendly fire incidents involving US troops, even artillery shelling their own front lines, and rear areas.

Of course there are instances of British, and other nationality, friendly fire incidents, but nowhere near as many. This may be related to the age old love affair between Americans and their guns. Time to think again guys. Do you really believe that the best way to combat evil is to blow its head off with the biggest equaliser you can afford? How does that make you any better than the people you shoot?

Most of us this side of the pond didn't want this war, and I suspect that most Americans didn't either. If the Blair/Bush siamese twins hadn't lied their heads off, we wouldn't have been there. I must say though that once we were there, I would feel safer around a bunch of Tommies than Yanks. It's all a question of how much time they spend thinking before they shoot.

DT.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:08 PM

"collateral damage"

I suppose I should know better than to use such jargon.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:19 PM

Canadians learned about so-called, U.S. "friendly fire", very early on in this game.

Who needs enemies when you have friends like this?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:30 PM

Do you really believe that the best way to combat evil is to blow its head off with the biggest equaliser you can afford?

Yes indeed. Many of us do believe this, although I would ammend it to say that many of us believe that the best way to combat "evil" is to blow its head off with the biggest equaliser we can get our hands on whether we can afford it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:34 PM

My dad was a RAAF WWII multi-engine pilot - he was stationed in Scotland for part of the time especially near the end of the European phase (incidentally his original training group from which he was detached due to temporary eye problems was almost wiped out during bombing runs over Europe) - one less than thrilling task was to tow a target drogue for the hot shit trainee fighter pilots to 'practice' on - he often came home with holes in the rear end - lucky the plane - an Anson if I remember - did not carry a tail gunner...

My mother's father marched around Flanders in WWI & acted as a prisoner guard (interesting incident where he took a loaded rifle off a prisoner!) in Australia during WWII.

Both liked Americans very much as individual people, but had an intense fear/dislike to be anywhere near the US military carrying live ammo! My mother's sister was an Yank War Bride, BTW...

'Friendly Fire' was well known by these 2 and talked about quietly and the US had the worst reputation. The line from the British guy who survived the US attack mentioned above about his friends saying "Don't worry about the enemy, but keep looking over your shoulder for the bloody Yanks!" which they said before he left was not so funny afterwards....

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:58 PM

As an American, all I can say is these are horrible events. Nobody wants to kill their friends. If you'll remember, there was a popular sports hero who volunteered for active service after 9/11 who was hit by friendly fire and killed in Afghanistan last year. It ain't just America's allies, it's Americans who are hit by friendly fire, and there is none of it good.

Right after I sent off my last post, a local TV show on journalistic issues covered this very subject. The show is mastered by Emily Rooney, a pretty savvy interviewer/ journalist (and daughter of Andy Rooney, erstwhile reporter and longtime commentator on 'Sixty Minutes'). Anyhow, Emily had on a military affairs specialist, an American Islamic Congress representative, and an American journalist all who are familiar with that route on which Ms. Sgrena was shot. Basically:

1) The affair happened at night, which is a poor time to be traveling. People with control over their schedules do not travel the route at night. Which led to the terrorists releasing Ms. Sgrena at night, an unfortunate setting for events to follow.

2) Pretty much all the people on the show had been told at one point or another when traveling the patrolled roads: "Gee, I almost lit you up" by American troops, meaning, they were thought to be traveling too fast, too close, or weren't expected when they thought they were, and came close to being targets.

3) They were all suspicious of Ms. Sgrena being so sure she was 'targeted', similar to my comments above.

4) American prestige is affected, and there better be an investigation, and it better be made transparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:21 PM

I don't think it was a deliberate act on the part of the U. S. forces. I agree with Charlie Noble. It was a sad accident.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:30 PM

Unfortunately bullets don't know they were started on their way by accident and seem to be unable to respond to subsequent requests to NOT hit the target they were aimed at.... My young (US - when they were living here for a while) cousin was nearly hit in the head by a .22 that discharged 'by accident' in their home.

Trigger happy is dangerous, but usually 'accidental'.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:17 PM

Well gol danged....

Here are my reasons for thinking the US military palnned on killing this woman:

A.) Her driver was well aware of the dangers of driving to the airport and being so, would have beem taking all the precautions.

B.) Anyone with an I.Q. greater than that of an animal cracker would know not to speed at a US checkpoint.

C.) The US doesn't appreciate other countries negotiating with *insurgents*...

Had this been one tank round, yeah, okay maybe an accident. One tank round stops a car dead.... But this was two rounds... This, just as in last weeks assaniation in Lebenon, smells of neocon politics...

The message? Simple. Step outta line the man will come an' take you away...

Just more terrorism on the Bushites part...

Crooks, liars and murderers...

No wonder they don't support a World Court... Heck, these thugs would clog up the dockets...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:26 PM

Apparently no statistics are kept about killings at checkpoints in Iraq, although these are very common. The only relatively unusual thing about this one is that it involved non-Iraqis.

The suggestion that someone sitting in the backseat of a car cannot have any awareness of the speed of the vehicle is a bit strange. If Ms. Sgrena says they were travelling at 25 to 30 miles an hour, that seems pretty likely to have been the case. Especially since that is what the driver apparently says as well.

I doubt if an internal invesigation by the US authorities will be seen as adequate by the Italians. If Bush has any sense he'll ensure that full cooperation is given to a thorough independent investigation. But I doubt if that will be allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 04:23 AM

... as usual ...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:58 AM

"The Italians probably should have requested an escourt, especially since they were traveling after dark. People do stupid things when they are in a hurry and I think there is some blame to be shared by both the Italians and the U.S. Armed Forces."

How did you reach that conclusion Charley? If it's just your idle speculation, why no wait for the inquiry, which might at least be able to establish who knew what, when. According to Italy's foreign minister, Gianfranco Fini, "all the necessary contacts were made." If that is the truth, we must hope there is some incontrovertible documentary evidence, otherwise it seems there are plenty of Americans only too keen to clutch at any excuse for blaming the victims.

Robomatic, why would a backseat passenger not be able to estimate the speed of a car? In Ms Sgrena's case, there was a driver, and it's not inconceivable that she's discussed the matter with him. Stranger things have happened. And why would a passenger have to be sitting upfront to know whether warning shots were fired? I wonder if some of you guys realise how prejudiced you're sounding. And no, that doesn't mean I buy Ms Sgrena's theory that she was targeted (a theory, incidentally, that she did not repeat in a recent BBC interview). It just means I'm willing to give the inquiry a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:34 AM

And why would a passenger have to be sitting upfront to know whether warning shots were fired? I wonder if some of you guys realise how prejudiced you're sounding.

Peter, you're mixing up different posts from different people. Robomatic has never mentioned warning shots but only warnings or demands to stop. The 'warning shots' have been mentioned by Foolestroupe and (in a quote) by Dianavan. Robomatic's remark makes a lot of sense, if he's speaking about visual information which is much more difficult to get from a backseat.

And, BTW, I agree that I can hear shots from the backseat as easily as I can from the front seat. But warning shot do not sound much different from targeting shots. However, from the front seat I might see the direction of the shots much better than from the front seat. That's what makes the difference between a warning shot and later shots.

However, prejudiced contributions without waiting for the result of inquiries are the backbone of all Mudcat political discussions.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 09:50 AM

Gee, Peter, you're right. I wasn't there and I don't have access to any inside information. I was making what I thought was a reasonable speculation. Sorry if it seemed like a conclusion.

I expect there will be at some more details that will come from whatever investigation is completed, given the concern of our Italian ally and the interest of the media. But I could be wrong.

Were there tank cannon rounds or machine gun fire directed at this car? People seem to be talking about both. Tank cannon rounds wouldn't have left much of anything to investigate in my humble opinion.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:20 PM

Hey, thanks for the last few posts, esp. clarification by Wolfgang. My comments about being in the rear seat (as I understood from the interview I heard with Ms. Sgrena on the Beeb, AND last night's discussion among journalists on Emily Rooney's show "Greater Boston") I agree that Ms. Sgrena might have discussed the issue with the driver after the fact, but in that case she didn't KNOW the speed, she only KNEW what she'd been told. As a journalist and in particular in reconstructing these sad events, she has a responsibility to stick to what she actually knows. Secondly, it has been my personal experience that in an unfamiliar vehice, I have been going much faster than I thought I was, and that was in daylight not under fire.

As of this date, the Italian officials have apparently dismissed Ms. Sgrena's unfounded charges that she was targeted, but are very anxious to have an adequate explanation from the Americans, which they are absolutely entitled to.

I reviewed some past unhappy occasions where someone's military took out some civilians or 'friendlys' and the common denominator seems to be that there are several layers of stories that must be gone through. The initial denial, the initial explanation blaming the victim, the gradual retreat as parts of the story fall to investigators, and the final "close as you're gonna get" assemblage, often put together not by the military, but by someone trained in fact checking. Often the military will give it the nod, sort of like what happened with "Blackhawk Down".

I'm always interested in how some parties chime into a thread with all the answeres before all the facts are out, and what motivates that kind of reaction. I'm thinking of starting a thread purely based on the idea of 'SPIN'. I'm not sure if it needs to be based on an event or can be purely about perception, but right now I don't want to use someone's death as a centerpiece.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:45 PM

The Italians say that "everything was cleared" or something like that. Cleared when, and with whom? I understand that this was a sort of on-the-fly temporary roadblock, which is done routinely. It's quite conceivable that the clearance, if any, was passed along to those in charge of regular roadblocks, but that it didn't get to another organization which decided at some point to put up a temporary. Is that just speculation? Of course.

But the idea that there was what would amount to an ambush to kill a rescued victim because of disapproval of negotiations with the other side just won't wash. Not just on a self-serving basis of "That's reprehensible, and WE wouldn't do a thing like that," but on the much better basis that it would serve no purpose, and couldn't be kept quiet afterwards.

Now, under stressful conditions, with snap judgments having to be made, it's quite possible that some young soldier(s) made a bad mistake. That is quite common, both in warfare and in police work. I wouldn't be at all surprised.

But an ambush? Naaaah!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:51 PM

Again quite simply, why is it always the US involved in trigger-happy slaughter?, and you mention SPIN, right now the US dirty tricks dept are spinning out some incredible explanation that will only be believed by the citizenry of that land.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 01:42 PM

ard:
I would take it as a favor if you would put in a transliteration of how to pronounce your no doubt lovely name in standard American (or to you, 'dumbed down')English.

It is not always US originated 'trigger happy' slaughter. It is wherever and whenever young men at arms are stationed in durance vile. Need I remind you of the Boston Massacre, where a group of young English sponsored soldiers fired into a civilian mob merely because they were being pelted with stones. Are you aware they were put on trial IN BOSTON by those civilians, defended by John Adams, and found 'not guilty'?

Were you paying attention a few months ago when a French aid flight was fired upon by African resistance (or government) fighters. That the French with no more of a how-de-do then took out the entire airforce of that small nation?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:38 PM

Of course for examples of British soldiers shooting civilians at checkpoints and in other circumstances, there's no need to go back to the 18th century, or across the Atlantic, as I know ard macha wouldn't deny.

There has evidently been a deliberate decision by the authorities not to collate statistics about killings at checkpoints in Iraq. However from the occasional news stories that make it through, when there is a specially dramatic or horrifying incident, it is pretty clear that there have been an awful lot of these killings. And the fact that no statistics are kept seems to imply that there can have been no serious attempt to investigate what went wrong in these cases.

I find the implication in a few posts that, if there had been a failure to inform the US authorities, this would mean that there could be no blame in shooting up the vehicle a bit bizarre.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:50 PM

The US forces in Viet Nam got horrible bad press because they DID keep "body count"! You can't win fer losin' !!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:35 PM

"Good press", "Bad press" - is that really what it's about?

Rather than trying to find some way of killing as few innocent people as is humanly possible. Shouldn't an expression like "war on terror" imply that that kind of thing is not what is supposed to happen.

At least this killing is going to focus attention, for a short time anyway, and there are people with a bit of media muscle involved who are going to keep it alive for a little bit longer than would otherwise happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:40 PM

A Journalist's Opinion

"Call me crazy, but I think that if the military wants you dead, and has you in their gunsights with a kill order in hand, you're gone. Period. If the military or civilian command had wanted Sgrena dead, why did they not use the .20mm cannon that was on the scene? The rounds from that thing are as big as Frisbees and would have done the job. If the military or civilian command had wanted Sgrena dead, why did military medics tend to her after the attack?

"No, if they want you, and they've got you bracketed and braced, that's the end of you. If this attack had been deliberate, we'd be reading Sgrena's obituary today. It is terrible that she was shot, and she is to be commended for her courage in reporting on the Fallujah incursion from an eyewitness perspective, but the attack was not deliberate

"The discussion of this, while necessary and justified by other incidents and accusations of journalists being targeted, is wide of the point we should be focusing on. Giuliana Sgrena is not the most important person in this story. The center of this story revolves around two people: Nicola Calipari and the soldier who shot him."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:45 PM

Here's what I find difficult to understand...

The driver survived. If the people at the checkpoint were so concerned about the vehicle being used for the purpose of causing damage to the airport or anyone in it, or even to the people at the checkpoint, why were they firing all of the bullets into the passengers in the back seat, instead of into the driver? And if, as I've read somewhere, the driver was approaching the checkpoint personnel on foot, with his hands up (hence his not being killed), why were the checkpoint personnel still firing bullets into the passengers in the back seat?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 05:59 PM

I started my answer a bit back, then the web site or the computer hiccuped so by the time i had it ready again there were two more comments posted. So starting with the latest and working my way back:

I think someone remarked earlier on that the car was hit with a spray of bullets from a tank machine gun. Them is not meant for accuracy. The soldiers' story that has been extant is that they were firing at the motor to stop the vehicle. But with the power of those guns and a spray of bullets, the occupants are subjected not merely to bullets but to the shrapnel effect of bits of sheet metal and engine block torn shredded and flying. Apparently it's a miracle that anyone in that car survived.



Drawing back a bit from the immediacy of this particular event, one would like to believe that after initial confusion someone comes up with and regularizes a procedure to control access on these roads. I'd like to believe that a conference would be held between the yanks, the brits, the poles, anyone else doing this kind of work, and the best ideas utilized so that anyone but especially innocent, possibly frightened and illiterate Iraqis would be able to pull in to these sites without feeling they were making alife and death attempt.


Unfortunately as soon as that is done, the opposition finds a way to use it to blow someone up. I heard stories (on the AM radio so who knows, right?) that some innocent appearing Iraqi families were used as bomb carriers by going in under a terrorist's gun or with relatives held hostage.

Part of the apparent lack of statistics might be that our guys don't want their guys to know what has worked the best.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:12 PM

As I understand it, it's standard operating procedure when a car approaching a check-point fails to stop when signaled to do so to fire at the engine compartment in an effort to disable the car. It's fairly obvious that when the shooting started, the car was still approaching the check-point, so the engine compartment and the passenger compartment would be more-or-less in line—not broadside to the line of fire. At the same time, under the assumption that the approaching car (which had [allegedly] ignored signals to stop, remember), the soldiers were more concerned with stopping what might very well be an explosive-laden car driven by suicide bombers than they were in the safety and well-being of the car's occupants. Even assuming that the shooting was accurate, under such circumstances not even the most precise marksman can guarantee that his bullets will strike the engine-block head-on and not hit it obliquely and ricochet on through the passenger compartment (a machine-gun, remember—not the most easy firearm to shoot with precision).

I have no knowledge of what actually did happen (any more than anyone else who has posted here—let's face it, this is all speculation), but I do have some knowledge of a) firearms; b) geometry; and c) the behavior of bullets hitting hard objects such as a cast-iron engine block at oblique angles. The bullet tends to continue in the same direction, deflected a bit (generally at a reciprocal angle) by skipping off the hard surface. There have even been instances of bullets fired across a body of fairly smooth water in which the bullet skipped off the water's surface, like skipping a flat rock.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:15 PM

what i see as the major issue to be illuminated by this act is that the US forces, 150,000 strong, absolutely cannot secure a stretch of road between bagdad and the airport. this means that the force that is constantly touted as the greatest military in the history of the world IS IMPOTENT. has no clothes. sucks. can be snookered by a few thousand insurgents with no army, no navy, no air force, no battle lines.US citizens are mesmerized because we have the biggest fireworks and the best propaganda but, guess what?! the people united can beat us. they ARE beating us. and so our demoralized troops lash out and these sad events happen. and they are not going to stop. the bush crime family is doing its best to destroy our country.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:26 PM

Haven't followed Ebbie's link yet but shouldn't that quote she's provided be amended in one respect? I would suggest "No, if they want you, and they've got you bracketed and braced, that's the end of someone." As it stands now, it bestows on the US military a level of competence that they often fail to achieve. (Not their fault, from everything I hear. They seem to be thrust into situations for which they have no proper training.)

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:29 PM

Sgrena has said that when the shooting started, she lay down on the floor in front of the back seat and that Nicola Calipari covered her with his body to shield Sgrena from the bullets. So considering the line of fire theory and the fact that they were supposed to have been aiming at the engine block, it would seem to me most likely that the driver of the car would have been the first one killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:30 PM

These incidents are happening all the time in Iraq but this one made your news because it was such a high profile. For a country with such pride in freedom of the press, I wonder why there is not a demand for more objective news coverage. In Canada we can get CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN, ABC, & PBS. They all seem to downplay what is happening and continue to link Iraq to 911.
I can understand the terrible stressful situations that your soldiers face and I am sure that they are doing their best to remain alive until they can return home. Of course that makes them trigger happy! The sin and shame lies with the leaders who send your fine young people into this situation. Sadam is long gone and the time is long past for Bush to be gone as well.
   If the excuse to remain is that civil war may break out when they leave, that is the same folly of fools that keeps Britsh troops in Northern Ireland. As for establishing democracy in Iraq, any thinking fool will realize that it can't be imposed by an occupying force.
               Obie

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:50 PM

I just saw ABC news which (supposedly) showed a picture of the car and it's hard to imagine a tank had anything to do with it. The car looked to be in pretty good shape. The Americans are claiming that the vehicle was traveling VERY fast and barely under control and in no ways prepared to stop for anything. I'm putting this in now because my last post gave more credence to Ms. Sgrena's story than I should have. Her story appears to be more and more bogus. I am now going to wait for more reports and hard evidence.

Obie I appreciate your understanding, but we're there now. Going back in history, maybe the Yanks didn't make such a good landing on Omaha Beach. Our aquatic tanks foundered and our officers were shot down. But we made it past the bunkers. I'm glad we didn't turn around during the Battle Of The Bulge.

Another thing to remember is there was a Pre-D-Day major practice landing on the coast of England which turned into a horror show. German PT boats started potting away at the forces and over a thousand men were lost. This entire operation and all losses were kept out of the news for years and the casualties loaded into D-Day landing figures. As I mentioned above, there are valid military reasons to withhold information from the enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:31 PM

"the excuse to remain is that civil war may break out when they leave" - the precise excuse which the Syrians have given for their presence in Lebanon, which Bush has been so dismissive about.

............
"Her story appears to be more and more bogus." Why, she probably shot herself and Nicola, as a way of making the Americans look bad...

"Bogus" in this case presumably meaning "not consistent with the version given by the soldiers who actually did the shooting".

Here is the (equally "bogus") version by the Italian foreign minister:

"In Rome, Fini said the Italian reconstruction 'doesn't fully coincide with what has been communicated by U.S. authorities,' including on whether the car was speeding and if the occupants had been warned.

According to Fini the car was 'traveling at a speed that couldn't have been more than 25 miles per hour.' A light, he said, was flashed at the car after a curve and that gunfire started immediately afterward. It lasted 15 to 20 seconds, he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:33 PM

So is that why US broadcasters link Iraq with 911, Robo? To confuse the enemy? That's supposing Obie's right with his assertion. I must say it seems incredible that anyone could make that link.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:46 PM

I have now heard that it was not technically a 'tank' but a couple of Humvees - I do believe that .50 cal MGs are turret mounted on top - at least if my major source of US Military info is correct - Hollywood movies such as 'Blackhawk Down'.... :-)

A couple of Humvees would be more believable if it was a spontaneous temporary roadblock. To most people with no great military knowledge or 'hobby interest' in military hardware, they would doubtless be thought of as 'tanks'.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:06 PM

An armoured Humvee - "tank" seems a fair enough word to use.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:18 PM

HOLY BATSHIT!!! What's that on top?!!!

Don't look nuttin' like what was in the movie!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 10:10 PM

" An armoured Humvee - "tank" seems a fair enough word to use."

Not if you're a journalist reporting the facts, along with a lot of other facts not born out by events.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 10:30 PM

Nope. A TANK is considerably larger, much more heavily armored, runs on treads rather than tires, and is equipped with various kinds of armament including a .50 cal. machine gun and a 105 mm. cannon.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 12:51 AM

Robo, you said, "As I mentioned above, there are valid military reasons to withhold information from the enemy."

Thats a no-brainer, duh............

What about communication in the field with your own forces and with your allies? Seems to be a common problem with the U.S. Commander in Chief. Maybe if the pentagon would spend more time communicating in the field and less time manipulating communication at home, they might have a little more credibility in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:59 AM

di-van:

I agree it should be a no-brainer. Thanks for pointing that out.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 04:42 AM

Here's a link to the photo claimed to be that of Sgrena's car. It's the same one shown on ABC television news Tuesday evening.

Attributed Sgrena car photo

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:12 AM

Ok Military Experts - what is that on the top of that Humvee - it's not a WWII vintage .50 cal MG...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:31 AM

A different angle:
Italy, some sources say, has as a consequence of that incident changed its never publicly stated policy in Iraq. Up to now they have paid in the case of abductions of Italians in Iraq. Several million dollars of Italian money have been transferred this way to those people who abduct, bomb, and shoot daily in Iraq. This handling is said to have been stopped now by Berlusconi.

Giuseppe d'Avanzo (in Repubblica) speaks of "collective (Italian) hypocrisy", gives Italy a part of the guilt for the death and writes: We have paid to get Agliani, Cupertino and Stefio back. We have paid to save the two Simones. We have paid to be able to give a burial to (murdered) Fabrizio Quattrocchi. The Italians pay. This maxim is a catastrophe in a country in which the security of all Western people is in jeopardy.

One Civil servant is quoted by the 'Corriere della Sera': It is now no more possible that the guerilla in Iraq shops rockets in Dubai with Italian money.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: John Hardly
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:07 AM

The "reporter" was not kidnapped. She colluded with the terrorists (she was as anti_American as they) to get the multi-million dollar ransom from the Italians which they unwisely (illegally?) paid to the terrorists.

Upon release, the "reporter" failed to take into account that there would be checkpoints, and didn't have a believable answer as to how she had secured a release from terrorists whose habit was to behead those they've kidnapped.

That inability to answer inquiry at a chickpoint caused panic in the Italian car. They decided to try to run the checkpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:29 AM

GDT! ADP?





















Good Conspiracy Theory! Any Documentable Proof?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:34 AM

Gawd - Typos...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:44 AM

GCT? No, making fun of Mudcatters who know already who's to blame.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 12:40 PM

William Shatner was in no way responsible for this latest Iraqi fiasco, Wolfgang, so just back off... :-) I resent the way you try to drag Shatner into every situation and make it appear that he is responsible for all the troubles in the World. I think you should get psychiatric help.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 01:27 PM

Here's a piece in today's Guardian by Giuliana Sgrena about all this.

This is looking murkier and murkier - here is what the Italian Prime Minister has been saying about it:

The Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, said today the driver of the car in which an Italian agent was killed by US forces in Iraq last week had obeyed orders to stop.

Mr Berlusconi said the car, which was taking the freed Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena to Baghdad airport, pulled up immediately when American soldiers flashed a warning light at it.

The prime minister told the Italian senate that the intelligence agent Nicola Calipari, who received a state funeral in Rome on Monday, had US military authorisation for his operation to secure the release of Ms Sgrena...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 01:59 PM

Like I said earlier, Kevin, we'll never know The Truth; and too many will pick & choose which "facts" they want to believe. I remain cynical about all 3 sides (the (US) military is almost incapable of telling the unspun truth, the Communist Italian journalist not only is not in a position to be objective by personal experience, she has a twice-over natural bent for distortion, the Italian govt is currently trying to recover a minor PR disaster of it's own i.e. "everyone" "knows" that they deal with with kidnappers & pay big ransoms...) - who is likely to tell the unvarnished truth in these circumstances?

Incidentally, it was Wesley S who first mentioned "tank", but whether it was or not is rather beside the point. Wesley also stated "400 rounds" which clearly implies a machine gun. Neither a main cannon, nor a single barrel 20mm can achieve this rate of fire. Whether it was a tank or Humvee, both mount HMGs. I'm suspicious of the alleged photo of the car, though. It looks remarkably undamaged - even the windscreen looks intact. Does anyone know by who, & how, this photo was released?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:11 PM

....Still waiting for facts...

Thanks McG. We now have THREE versions and counting...
Silvio Berlusconi, who wasn't there, said the Italians stopped for the Americans BEFORE being shot.

Ms. Sgrena has said the Italians were not speeding and were not warned there was a checkpoint and received no orders to stop and were fired upon from a tank (I heard her on the BBC two days ago).

The Americans as of Tuesday night were saying that the Italian car was speeding and not responding to signals to stop. The photos that are supposed to be of the car show at most bullet damage.

From peripheral 'sources' I've heard that the Italians say the Americans were aware of what was going down. The Americans say they didn't know. Ms. Sgrena's article referenced by McGrath seems to indicate that it was considered important to keep the Americans from knowing.

Ms. Sgrena's article appears to be translated by someone with better English than she appeared to have when she was interviewed by the BBC. Reading the article makes me feel that she is a journalist in name only, or perhaps limited by her knowledge of the language if she wrote the English herself. Nevertheless it doesn't provide a firm timeline nor the observational acuity that I associate with perceptive people. Kind of like Hunter S. Thompson of recent memory only not at the Kentucky races and on a different 'stream' of consciousness. Let's be fair, the lady has been kidnapped, released, shot and wounded. But why does her narrative stop at shots fired? What happaned when the Americans found out who they were. There's an important point to be made. If she was indeed a conscious American target, and the Americans had killed her protector, why didn't they finishy the job. Then there would be only ONE story to tell. She also indicates a level of naivete that is normally reserved for Europeans to apply to Americans. In her articles conclusion of impressions from her captivity she seems to be surprised that kidnappers who force her to make taped entreaties don't want her to report from an 'anti-American' perspective. I don't know whether her charges of American 'targetting' of her car is due to a pre-conceived orientation, Stockholm sydrome, or a need to 'spin' an explanation from the chaos of events that occur in violent situations. But it ain't rational. And the duty of a journalist is to provide a rational framework in order to better understand events. Otherwise, she's just another body stopping a bullet for someone.

One interesting bit of 'information' in Sgrena's screed: The driver was on a cell-phone! This is the best argument I've heard to date for not driving while using those things. She may have inadvertently advanced the puzzle of what happened if by her words we can consider that the driver was distracted from THE MOST DANGEROUS ROAD IN BAGHDAD because he was using the phone!

McGrath, rather than murkier it could be getting clearer, BUT>>>>

....STILL WAITING FOR THE FACTS

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:18 PM

Thanks, McGrath, for pointing to the contradictions in the Italian versions of the incident.

Ms Sgrena first said in an interview that there was no warning signal,
now in the Guardian article she skips over that point and writes I can only remember gunfire (quite in line with what robomatic assumed about the perceptual abilities of a backseat passenger, BTW)
Berlusconi says the Italians stopped immediately when seeing a warning signal.

BTW, Italian secretary of foreign affairs Gianfranco Fini yesterday: "Nobody has given a sign to stop."
The Italians don't seem to agree yet about that detail.

Murky, yes, but not more than usual in such situations. Contradictory accounts and even the same people giving slightly different accounts at different times is normal.

Sgrena (last night in Italian TV): "I have never said that the Americans wanted to kill me".

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:40 PM

Precisely - it's all very unclear, and even after the investigations have been caried out, it'll still be far from clear, these things always are.

But what is clear, and what ought to be the central issue, is that a fair number of ordinary Iraqis have been killed in these kinds of incidents, and nobody seems to have been giving it the attention it deserves. Every now and again a story makes it into the press, and if it's bad enough there are promises about inquiries - and that's it. Kicked into touch, and the world moves on. And there are no indications that anything has been learned from the tragedy to stop it all happening next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:45 PM

The kidnappers appeared to be very religious, continuously praying on the Koran. (Sgrena in Guardian atricle)

The kidnappers were not strict Muslims (Sgrena in interview translated in German newspaper)

Normal, very very normal. Eyewitnesses, in particular after having had fear for their lives (or having felt strong emotions for encountering something unexplainable to them), adapt their recollection of the event to the script they later consider the most likely to have happened to them. In particular, during the first days the story often changes. Some days later, in particular for people retelling the story quite often, the story settles for a more permanent version.

Not because of herself Ms Sgrena cannot be trusted to report each detail correctly, anybody in her situation would be like her.

BTW, for those liking to point out that she was working for a communist newspaper, she was also working for DIE ZEIT, the most respectable very middle of the road German weekly newspaper.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 04:00 PM

In any case there is nothing particularly inconsistent between reading the Koran and praying, and not being "strict Muslims". Just transfer those comments to Christians you know. There are plenty of people who might read the Gospels, and say prayers, especially in a time of crisis, are far from being regular church members, or "strict Christians".

Muslims come in all sorts, the same way as Christians or Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 05:26 PM

There's nothing inconsistent if you re-arrange the words in her story to make them match with the soldier's reports. It all makes so much sense now.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: DougR
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:41 PM

What a rush to judgement! Why not wait until the investigations are completed BEFORE hanging the U. S. soldiers?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:25 PM

I wholly agree with Doug about it being wrong to rush to any kind of judgement, either way, in the absence of clearer information.

The only clear thing is that this should not have happened - what eactly did happen, and why it happened, are still very much open questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 12:41 PM

You will note, Doug, that this is what several people here, including me, have been saying all along. So far it's all speculation based on conflicting stories. Everybody has an ax to grind. You are right, but at the same time, let's not exonerate anyone prematurely. Wait and watch.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:35 PM

Don,

So, innocent until proven guilty can only apply to those that you support, and those you oppose are guilty until proven innocent? UNTIL there is some proof, perhaps the US forces should be taken at their word, and the incident considered an accident. Investigation is required, regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:58 PM

Raedwulf, I've been noting much good sense in your posts, so was surprised to see you saying: "she has a twice-over natural bent for distortion." Is this a reference to the susceptibility of post-trauma recollection as explained by Wolfgang, or are you hinting at something else?

By the way, Wolfgang, just to go back to the point I took up with Robomatic, and which you queried.... I had taken Sgrena's claim that there was no warning to be, inter alia, a contradiction of the US claim that warning shots had been fired. I still think a back-seat passenger could have formed a view about that. If the first shots she heard were the ones that hit the car, then she is entitled to say she thinks no warning shots were fired. I take the point that she has subsequently turned out to be a bit inconsistent about whether there were any other warning signals.

I'm pleased to see DougR seconding my suggestion that we give the inquiry a chance. I don't think it will be the cynical exercise that some are fatalistically expecting.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:59 PM

And I wondered how we were going to while away the time while we waited for the facts!




Seriously, someone mentioned that it might be an issue that Ms. Sgrena worked for a Communist publication. I don't know where Communism has 'gone to ground' since the Big Kahuna fell at the end of the millenium.

So, are there a lot of Communists left in Europe these days? Is there an issue over Ms. Sgrena representing such a publication? Is she a free-lancer?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 07:03 PM

Beardedbruce, you obviously have not been reading what I have posted. Where the hell did you get that? Out of thin air?

That's what I've been saying all along!!

Fer Chrissake, read what I have written before you start popping off at me!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 07:06 PM

"You are right, but at the same time, let's not exonerate anyone prematurely. "


seems to imply that there is some guilt to be given. Pardon me if I misinterpreted.

I may be oversensitive when it comes to the attitude here that the US is ALWAYS at fault, and can be blamed without any evidence, but all others are to be presumed innocent until absolute proof has been presented- even then, it remains the fault of the US, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,Don Firth
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 08:00 PM

Yes, BB, you did misinterpret.

When lots of people seemed to assume automatically that the Italian reporter was telling the gospel truth and that the Americans tried to kill her because they don't like her views, I have been essentially defending the troops who fired on the approaching car. You would know this had you read my posts. When Doug leaped to the conclusion that everybody was condemning the troops, I pointed out to him that not everyone was. But I also pointed out to him that we don't know yet if they were as lily-pure as he assumes they are (as is his wont).

I have said several times that in the light of conflicting stories and the fact that none of us knows definitively what actually happened, anything anyone says on this thread is pure speculation.

In short, I have kept saying all along, don't jump to conclusions.

And to you I say, don't jump to conclusions about my views about anything unless I say specifically what I think. If you try to label and pigeon-hole me, you will most assuredly be wrong.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 08:25 PM

Don,

I was wrong in my interpretation of your comment- I apologize.


8-{E

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 10:18 PM

We're okay, then. Carry on.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 12:30 AM

The reason that the US is instantly at fault in matters like these is that there are those who hate whatever administration is in power and want to see it fail, even at the expense of innocent people. There are others who hate America for political reasons, so America is alwaye wrong, even if they have to tell the most outrageous lies to achieve that goal.

I am not saying that the US, the Bush Administration, or anyone else is perfect, but I have noticed over the years that we are always persumed guily by certain groups even if proven innocent. This incident could be investigated by Saddam himself and if the US was found to be not at fault, there are those who would stridently complain that it was a whitewash job.

I have seen several different accounts of the incident. In one Ms Sgrena said that they were going slow and in an earlier account that they were going so fast that the driver was having trouble keeping the car on the road. I don't reacll if she said the road was wet or not.

Then theres the questiom of the tank. If a tank had fired it's cannon at the car and hit it, there would have been NO survivors. I am sure that everyone has seen, over the past years, light vehicles hit by tank fire and no, an armored Humvee is not a tank. It doesn't even look like a tank.

I post my own conspiracy theory at this point. It all happened according to any one of a half-dozen possible scenarios and Ms. Sgrena saw an opportunity to blacken the US eye and increase her own standing in the anti-American media community. A win-win situation for her unless she can be proven a liar.

From the different stories she's been telling, that may not be too difficult.

We shall see.

troll

BTW Wolfgang, the fact that she writes for a moderate German magazine doesn't negate her stated political leanings. And the German Govt. didn't pay the ransom.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 01:51 AM

Has anyone heard if it was during the day or at night?

I have also heard that her kidnappers would not accept a ransom.

Wow, is this story a mixed up mess. I think its what Hunter Thompson referred to when he wrote, "Myths and legends die hard in America. We love them for the extra dimension they provide, the illusion of near-infinite possibility to erase the narrow confines of most men's reality."

This is the industry of deception and ethically altered politicians. To most of the world, it seems to be America's biggest export. Its not as if its the first time the U.S. administration has lied. I certainly don't blame the soldiers. How easy it is to withold information as a means to an end. How easy it is to follow orders. How easy it is to kill someone with friendly fire if you perceive that person to be a threat. Its war. Shit happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:11 AM

"The reason that the US is instantly at fault in matters like these is that there are those who hate whatever
administration is in power and want to see it fail, even at the expense of innocent people. There are others who hate America for political reasons..."

god am i sick of you "hate america" morons. the reason many people suspect the US government in cases like these is because america has been involved in many covert and overt operations resembling this type of thing for, like, DECADES! many have been proven and many have even been admitted to by the gov't (many years after the fact, of course). read a history book! many people in other parts of the world hate america because america has intervened in their soverign affairs and manipulated their governments to the USs own advantage! in other words, to simplify for the morons, the US has a credibility problem. for americans to realize this and point it out does not mean they "hate america". it means they are fulfilling their duty as citizens to reign in a corrupt regime. our own.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:07 AM

Well put GUEST!

The US Political Administration just keeps on shooting itself in the foot with regard to its credibility - the whitewashinvestigation into the Iraqi Prison photos bears this out again - it would be nice to have some faith in the credibility of the forthcoming whitewashinvestigation in the Journalist shooting matter...

And some Americacans (interesting Freudian typo that one!) wonder why much of the rest of the world is cynical...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:46 AM

Some in the west, and in in particular very many in the US, seem to have been brainwashed into believing that anything to do with communism is automatically bad. Troll's post above typifies this attitude. (Strangely, some of those who subscribe to it still manage to be impressed by those who stood out against the HUAC witch-hunt in the US.)

There is a world of difference between eurocommunism, which is the predominant strand of communism in Italy, and Stalinism. By most estimations Tito's regime in Yugoslavia was communist, yet it brought a period of stability to the region unprecedented in the past 200 years. And among all the warring factions in Croatia, Bi-H and Serbia in the 1990s, the one thing they all had in common ws respect for Tito.

If you have to rush to judgment on Ms Sgrena, Troll, try to judge her for herself rather than against whatever stereotypes you've filled your head with.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:52 AM

And Vietnam only pretended to be 'Communist' after WWII when its pleas to the Western Powers for help went unheeded, and the Colonial Attitude prevailed.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 06:20 AM

Well, as I grew up and navigated the 'isms' Communism seemed to me to be a perversion of Socialism with totalitarianism thrown in as a sort of bonus. I know there were variations, such as Stalanism and Trotskyism and I suppose Leninism, and we haven't even journeyed back to Marxism (I never heard of Engelism but by now I'm on a roll).
Communism also suffered from its adherents giving information to and taking direction from foreign governments, unless they happened to already be in Russia.
In short, Communism seemed to be whatever the boss and his henchmen said it was. As the bosses got older along with the workforce, it seemed to peter out until Gorby made his legendary visit to an American supermarket.
Communism also claimed to be proudly atheistic while yet suffering all the disadvantages of slavish beliefs without evidence. (And Communists didn't believe in Darwin).

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 07:20 AM

Having suffered much pigeon-holing at your hands, Don, I find your posts quite ironic. Ironic and humorous.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 12:47 PM

John, point out a few instances where I have pigeon holed you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 01:09 PM

John, the only place I can think of where we have had a protracted exchange recently was in the "'Strengthening' Social Security" thread. I've reread that thread quite thoroughly, and although we don't see eye to eye on the matter of Social Security and Bush's push for private accounts, it looks to me like a fairly reasonable discussion. I see nothing that would indicate to anybody that I am "pigeon-holing" you. In fact, others on that thread are responding to you in a much harsher and more personal manner than I ever did.

Are you sure it's me you're thinking of? Or possibly someone else.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 02:31 PM

Don,

You're right in that, most of the time, you are merely condescending. But you indeed make it a regular practice of characterizing what others think for them. I was going to look back through my archives to find this kind of exchange between the two of us but, in 5 years here I've amassed over a thousand posts. It was too cumbersome.

Fortunately, though, I stumbled upon this pretty quickly into my search. Your character (assaination?) of Strick in this exchange is pretty much "pigeonholing". If not, it's close enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:10 PM

Peter - I blush slightly. Ta! What I meant by "twice over" is that first, she is a journalist, & second she apparently holds a relatively extreme political p-o-v.

Journalists are not policemen & are not employed to be truthful. They are employed to write saleable copy. Judicious manipulation of available facts can produce an extremely good story without ever coming remotely close to either pole of Truth or Lie!

If she is also a follower of a particular political ideology, particularly an extreme & one-sided ideology such as communism, she is extremely unlikely to be entirely objective or rational in her interpretation of events. Especially events that she personally participated in.

Hence, deliberately or otherwise, her version of events is going to be distorted. To be blunt, I do not disbelieve Sgrena's version of events, but neither do I trust it, particularly since her story has been "evolving", shall we say. Some of this, undoubtedly, is down to post-trauma effect as Wolfgang has noted. However, no-one with a grain of intelligence could possibly claim her inconsistent testimony is the "unvarnished truth". Of the three possible versions, Sgrena's is the least reliable in my opinion.

Regards,

R

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:23 PM

Troll - Please at least do the rest of us the courtesy of reading the thread properly! The tank question has already been more than dealt with. Every report states that Signor Calipari was killed by a bullet (not a shell fragment). Tanks mount machine guns as well as main cannon, so a tank could quite easily have been present & active. And for those who are not overly conversant with military terminology, I'm damn sure that a Humvee looks rather more like a tank than a family saloon car. Especially when it's shooting at you!

The one question that I am sure every contributor to this thread would like answered (regardless of nationality or political leaning) is: "Why is Signor Calipari dead?" May I suggest (it'll be ignored, I know... *grin*) that we stop bitching at each other until some better answers are available? Because, at the moment, we all seem to be agreeing that we need more data, & yet argue anyway!

Regards,

R

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:13 PM

John, I reread that whole thread, and granted, I got pretty steamed (mostly at people accusing me of saying something that I wasn't saying at all, not unlike this thread), but I can't find anything that I said to Strick, or anyone else, that qualifies as "character assassination." Others on that thread took issue with him far more vociferously than I did. In fact, I found instances where you attacked me pretty strongly, accusing me of "cutting and pasting" to avoid thought, which I corrected you about, and you acknowledged that you had been wrong.

Strick, on the other hand, deliberately misinterpreted several things I wrote, including a semi-humerous reference of mine, trying to undercut my argument by accusing me of getting my philosophical position from an episode of Star Trek. If there was any "character assassination" going on there, it wasn't coming from me.

I invite anyone who has the time, the inclination, and the stomach for it, to click on your link, read the thread, and judge for themselves. I see no point in prolonging this discussion.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:48 PM

Well, since you took the prerogative (as opposed to prerogainetive -- BIG hairy difference) to, " see no point in prolonging this discussion", I guess it would be presumptuous and impolite for me to, you know, respond.    I'm never sure how to play with the guy who has owns the ball.

You seem to be a swell guy. Sorry we never were able to get past my offense and your disdain.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:12 PM

Okay. Not "disdain," John. Nor "condescension." And I don't see that I "own the ball." Once again, you're reading things into it that I don't intend.

We seem to be talking past each other, which is why I don't see that there's any point to continuing. I don't like feuds. And I didn't start this.   But I'm perfectly willing to talk about it with you if we can come to some point of agreement, and to me, that would seem to be having enough respect for each other to at least attempt to avoid misinterpretation.

So where do you want to go from here?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:20 PM

Robomatic (and Raedwulf up to a point), eurocommunists have been participating constructively for very many years in democratic politics at parliamentary level in varioius European countries, not least Italy. They do take the view that nobody should have a lot until veryone has enough (as I do), but it's an aspiration they pursue through the democratic process. To imply that eurocommunists ever took their orders from Moscow is absurd. And in the case of Tito, who called himself a communist and was widely regarded as such, he made his defiance of Stalin (easily the most difficult of all so-called communists to defy) public knowledge.

The story about Gorbachev and a supermarket obviously means a lot to you, Robo. I hope no grown-up comes along and spoils it for you by letting slip that it might not be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:39 PM

I don't like 'em either -- feuds, that is. For a over a year I had my settings set on "no BS" here, and I prolly shoulda kept it that way.

Yeah, we talk past each other.

Yer a peach. Everybody knows that. I'll just not shake your tree.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 06:30 PM

I re-read the thread John Hardly linked to and it seems to me that Don Firth's voice and views were among the more moderate. Voices were raised in a number of places and from various people but I don't see condescension there. In fact, because of his strong opinion Strick's attitude - as he acknowledged - was a bit over the top; he insulted a number of people.

Not the best thread, imo, to illustrate your point, John Hardly.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 06:34 PM

I should undoubtedly stay out of the BS section, too. The whole place seems to generate more heat than light. It tends to get me hot under the collar, accomplishes little, and wastes an incredible amount of time.

I have nothing but respect for musicians, artists, and crafts persons who chose to try to make it self-employed. Been there, done that. It's a rough row to hoe, but even a modicum of success can bring an immense amount of satisfaction.

John, even though we often disagree here in the BS section, I have always considered you one of the more reasonable debaters, and I have no wish or intention to treat you in a condescending manner. If I seem to have done so, I'm sorry.

Just for kicks, I checked your pix in the "Member Photos and Info" section (one of these days I'm going to get off my duff and put my mug-shot in there). You do darn nice work!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 07:16 PM

Peter: Here we have some regular guys trying to act like gentlemen and talk TO each other rather than past each other. Then you chime in with a rather supercilious air and assure me that all is well without really saying anything. I don't recall the 'Eurocommunist party' ever really existing. I recall various Communist parties. I recall the Stalin-Ribbentrop pact and a few other things that maybe you don't take too seriously, but I think they affected Europe more than you seem to.

You had a chance to spread some light which was what I was trying to elicit, but instead you brought some grease. I don't like grease. It tends to spread a lot of smoke around.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 08:00 PM

John PMed me. I PMed John.

Everything's copacetic.

That's the civilized way.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 12:00 AM

Fionn, I said nothing about her being a communist. What I was referring to was her anti-American background.

Raedwulf, anyone who is working in a war zone, especially as a war correspondent, is going to know the difference between a tank and an armored humvee. If they don't, thare suffering from lethal stupidity and/or the people who sent them there without a proper briefing are guilty of criminal neglect.

My point about the tank I will repeat since some missed the point. If she had been targeted by the US for whatever reason, AND a tank was present, then the tanks maingun would have been used to take out the car and the death of everyone aboard would have been asured.

Foolestroupe, I'll ansewr you since I won't recognize those too cowardly to identify themselves.

The US in it's relationships with other countries on this planet
has and should always put its interests first. I know that this horrifies all you "lets not offend anyone at any price" types but it is typical of governments since the beginnings of recorded history.
It is not the job of this or any American administration to make the world love America. It is their job to protect the citizens of this country from outside forces and if they don't do it, you may rest assured that our country and our way of life are doomed.

I remember after 9/11 how some people wondered why the bin Laden and his cohorts hated us so. What had we done to arouse such hatred? And the answer was that we were overbearing and interferring and greedy and a whole host of similar claptrap.

The real reason was that we are the most powerful nation on earth and they want the whole world to be islamic. And they TOLD us this and the fools wouldn't listen. "No, they said, It must be something we did."

That the Iraqi people and the whole middle east is better off with the fall of Saddam is evident to everyone except those who want the US, or the Bush administration, to fail. They KNOW that success will only strengthen the US and so they report only the disasters and everyone watches (or watched) Dan Blather and his ilk telling us how badly we are doing and how much our credibility has slipped when anyone can talk to a soldier who is just back from Iraq and get the real story of how the Iraqi people feel.

But no, it's so much more satisfying to have ones predjudices reinforced instead of actually thinking for ones self. And why we should worry about what the world thinks is beyond me. Europe will not love us until the EU is the world power no matter what we do or say. Africa and South America want out aid so they generally keep quiet.
India and China are quietly working to overtake us and they may well do it. But not for quite a while yet and anyone that thinks that all the worlds countries are not acting solely in their own interest is too damn naive to be allowed out without a keeper.

I'll close now. I haven't told you anything that you didn't already know about either yourself or the current situation

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 01:22 AM

troll - "The real reason was that we are the most powerful nation on earth and they want the whole world to be islamic. And they TOLD us this and the fools wouldn't listen. "No, they said, It must be something we did."

Spoken like a true Nationalist and a person who has a very limited world perspective.

Since when did a soldier think for himself?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 07:11 AM

I don't have any real problem with the US putting it's interests first - I am - like many others - just pissed off that OUR stupid wankers of Politicians are so easily bribed as to ALSO put U.S. interests ahead of Australian (or any other of their own country's) ones!

I have heard in news here that there was definitely no tank - just humvees (this misunderstanding could have been due to a translation glitch) - and I still don't know just what the hell that nasty looking object is on top of the nice Humvee piccie linked to above.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 08:52 AM

Robomatic, I would have thought your last post makes it plain enough that you think all those who call themselves communist are tarred with one brush. OK,so you've never heard about eurocommunism and its split with Stalinism - that much was obvious. So read a bit, or travel a bit, and take a look at how the eurocommunists have engaged in mainstream politics in countries like France and Italy. And don't be frightened - some of them have behaved quite responsibly.

It doesn't all come down to the Stalin Ribbentrop pact, and incidentally if you're going to attach such weight to that, it would be reasonable to remember that it was Russians, putting their lives on the line on a scale never seen before or since, that saved Europe from fascism. (OK, Russia joined battle only because Germany declared war. But then it was Hitler declaring war on the US that put an end to America's evasions too.)

I know a number of journalists who are happy to call themselves communist. On the whole, they are rational, thinking, open-minded and conscientious people. If it turns out that Ms Sgrena is unreliable or untrustworthy, then that will be a personal weakness and not - as you imply - the consequence of her being a communist.

Stalin was a paranoid psychopath - probably certifiable - and an out-and-out despot. To assume all commies are like that is as absurd as to assume all capitalists are like the war-mongering George Bush Jnr.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 10:14 AM

Dinavan, you say "nationalist" like it's a nasty thing. As Hillel said, "If I am not for me, who is? And if not now, when"?

It was the failure of the Soviet Union to recognize the deep feelings that people had for their own countries and traditions (language, religeon, currency, etc.) These feelings caused them to have to have troops in nearly every country under the Communist rule, ostensibily to protect against a NATO (or whatever) attack. In reality, they were there to keep the populance in line and to keep nationalism down.

As history will note, as soon as they could, they declared their independence and became their own nations again.

Yes, I am a Nationalist. I love my country and want it to be first among nations. If this gives me a "very limited world perspective" , oh well.

Under our system of government, you are entitled to express your opinion.

For whatever it's worth.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 10:42 AM

Hey Peter: A somewhat better post than your previous one, so I'll try to be nice:

Blaming all communists for Stalinism is like blaming all Christians for the Inquisition. It is tarring with one brush, yet there is a lot of blame to go round.

Dragging in the fact that Russia did yeoman's work to defeat the Germans in WWII has little if anything to do with Communism. If you know much about the war you'll know that the Germans were first welcomed as liberators by Ukrainians and Russians until they learned there could actually be something worse than Communism.

I'm not so worried that every Communist is as you have determined Stalin to be "paranoid psychopath - probably certifiable". Maybe that's true, but the guy ran the largest country in the world for about 30 years, had nuclear weapons, and managed to die in bed. The Communists with him as their leader had one-party rule by terror for the whole of that time and a generation after. So I'm worried about the millions of people who FOLLOWED the "paranoid psychopath - probably certifiable" and were so blind as to write praises to him and his ilk.

You managed to spend more words than my original post saying a lot less. I also put forth that Communism was much more than a political party, it sought to supplant religion, philosophy, and to a point, science (unless it could be shown to serve the state, one guess as to who made that determination).

As for books, you advise me to read some but you didn't bother to point out a one. Some folks local to me gave me a book by Marcuse which I found unreadable. So may I commend to you Orwell's "Animal Farm", "1984", and Koestler's "Darkness At Noon".

Is the fact that there are eurocommunists now any different from the fact that there are euronazis now?

As far as does knowing that a reporter is or has Communist sympathies informative of bias, I think it profoundly IS. And while waiting for more facts of this affair to come out, I think we have already seen Ms. Sgrena having problems with facts and no fear of asserting opinions as facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 11:50 AM

Troll - "...anyone can talk to a soldier who is just back from Iraq and get the real story of how the Iraqi people feel.

But no, it's so much more satisfying to have ones predjudices reinforced instead of actually thinking for ones self."

So how does talking to a soldier help you think for yourself?

I repeat, since when does a soldier think for himself?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 12:49 PM

Correction:

If I am not for myself, who am I?
If I am only for myself, what am I?
If not now, when?
                            —Rabbi Hillel

Respectfully submitted,

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 04:46 PM

Robo, I mentioned Russia's role in the war only becaue you referred to the Stalin-Ribbentrop pact. And I'm not sure on the evidence so far that I have a better opinion of Sgrena than you have. People can be flaky whatever their political affiliations.

Orwell took (I would say stole) the idea for Animal Farm from Gertrude Elias, an Austrian who fled to the UK before WW2. During the war she submitted a proposal to the BBC, where it was read by Orwell. She included illustrations in which people were shown as animals - pigs the leaders, horses the workers, etc. All of which would be completely irrelevant except that her satire was against fascism, not communism. Orwell's book could be against whatever you want it to be against, but for sure it's against totalitarianism of any sort.

Books on the subject can be heavy going unless you're a political anorak, but there are less intimidating sources. In case you don't have access to it, I'll PM you the Encyclopaedia Britannica entry on eurocommunism. In France, communists were getting as much as a third of the popular vote in the early 1950s. But needless to say, they were not voting for a monster in the Stalin mould. No doubt they were helped by a reaction to France's pro-fascist stance in the war, but their electoral strength is something many in the US (I'm not saying you) find impossible to comprehend.

As far as religion goes, I'm all for putting respect for fellow human beings ahead of respect for whatever gods people choose to worship. On the question of religion v socialism you could try Tawney's study, "Religion and the Rise of Capitalism." It presents a persuasive picture of a very unsavoury alliance.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,Mr. Guest
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 05:51 PM

isn't it interesting how Troll, like his esteemed leaders so often do, chooses to use quotes but leave out the line that doesn't support his self centered viewpoint? (thanx don firth) so it's not really a lie (and i'm sure Troll would be self-rightously horrified if it were so characterized) but merely a distortion of the actual message of the quote. by the way since you don't speak to those who don't "identify" themselves (as you do with your distinctive name "Troll") just call me MR.guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 06:52 PM

From news24.com - "Mario Marioli, a deputy commander of the US-led coalition troops in Iraq, was quoted by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica as saying: "I asked Calipari if I should inform our American allies of the hostage-freeing operation, but his reply was that under no circumstances was the ally to be informed."

Sounds about right. Blame it on the dead guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 07:05 PM

I am beginning to believe that Sgrena was considered an enemy of the U.S. govt. and was targetted.

From a former U.S. intelligence officer:

"I also believe that a clear motivation for preventing Sgrena from telling her story is quite evident. Let us recall that the first target in the second attack upon the city of Fallujah was al-Fallujah General Hospital. Why? It was the reporting of enormous civilian casualties from this hospital that compelled the US to halt its attack. In other words, the control of information from Fallujah as to consequences of the US assault, particularly with regard to civilians, became a critical element in the military operation.

Now, in a report by Iraq's health ministry we are learning that the US used mustard, nerve gas and napalm ­ in the manner of Saddam ­ against the civilian population of Fallujah. Sgrena, herself, has provided photographic evidence of the use of cluster bombs and the wounding of children there. I have searched in vain to find these reports in any major corporate media. The American population, for the most part, is ignorant of what its military is doing in their name and must remain so in order for the US to wage its war against the Iraqi people.

Information, based upon intelligence or the reporting of brave journalists, may be the most important weapon in the war in Iraq. From this point of view, the vehicle in which Nicola and Giuliana were riding wasn't simply a vehicle carrying a hostage to freedom. It is quite reasonable to assume, given the immorality of war and of this war in particular, that it was considered a military target."

Jerry Fresia is a former US Air Force intelligence officer. He now lives in Italy.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 07:21 PM

This is the best (and seemingly objective) interview I've read so far:

http://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2005/03_Marzo/11/sgrena.shtml

I feel so sad for this woman. I can't even imagine how horrible it must have been to be a hostage, be the target of U.S. troops, be protected by a man who lost his life and then be called a liar.

I am equally sorry that the brave man who lost his life is now being blamed for not informing the U.S. This is truly the bottom of the pit. I will never, never trust that the U.S. (under Bush) is anybodies ally.

What will it take for the people of the U.S., Britain, and Australia to take to the streets?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 09:31 PM

In Science, Hysteresis (where the psychologist term hysterical originates) is the process whereby a system can be driven in 2 directions like a pendulum, but unlike a pendulum which moves smoothly along its path, suddenly jumps from one position to another. Political systems work like that - pressure builds for change, then it happens suddenly when people are not expecting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 09:39 PM

Don, thanks for the full quote.

"Mr. Guest". I thanked Don for giving the full quote. I had never seen it written out that way. Had I done so, I would not have used it.

Just who are my "esteemed leaders"?

Since you don't know a bloody thing about me, you are making a lot of assumptions. But then, You certainly want to substantiate YOUR POV which seems to be that I'm some wild-eyed fundamentalist Bushite who has to stand on a chair to tie his (or her) shoes.

I still have no respect for anyone who hides behind the "guest" label. This attitude seems to bother you.

Tough.

Dinavan, your obvious contempt for the military only betrays your abysmal ignorance of it.

Talking to soldiers who have been there is called primary research, which, if you knew anything outside your own narrow little inbred
political sphere, is an excellent method for checking the validity of the information coming in from secondary sources i.e. the media.

But of course, you already have the truth don't you. You don't need to check. Your sources are the only really factual ones, aren't they.
You don't need to think for yourself because your sources of information do it for you.

Kinda hard to tell the difference between a fundamentalist Christian, a fundamentalist Islamist and those true believers who ahve all the political answers.

In closing, let me say that you don't want to start a war. I'm a lot older and nastier than you ever dreamed possible. Keep your posts polite and I'll do the same.

BTW, thats "troll" with a lower case "t".

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 10:26 PM

Peter: Thank you for the response and the information. It is totalitarianism that I really hate, and both the nazis and the communists succumbed to it and were so far to the right and left that they circled around and met each other "on the backside" IMHO. I agree that Orwell once the shades were removed set totalitarianism as the enemy without necessarily making him FOR anything (except sex).

I will read the article you posted before I make more comments on eurocommunism. Obviously my literary references are from a more 'classic' period of political infighting. I am an admirer of Orwell particularly "1984" which I originally saw as a BBC production done very primitively and effectively at least 30 years ago, way more captivating than the rather limp eponymous movie. I was unaware of the story of a woman associating animals and politics giving Orwell the idea, but that in no way diminishes Orwell. If you are familiar with an ingenious Czech playwrite of the 30's, Karel Capek, he wrote a play variously called "The World We Live In" or "The Insect Play" where he likened various anthropomorphic qualities to different insects. I believe the capitalist was represented by a dung beetle. And of course even earlier Mayakovsky wrote a marvelous little ideological frolic called "Bedbug" which was quite funny for a communist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 10:34 PM

Don:

I'm not sure of your source of the Hillel quote, but I have never seen it that way and I haven't found it on the web that way. The version I'm familiar with:

If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
But if I am only for myself, what am I?
And if not now, when?

It dates to the first or second century of the common era.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 11:49 PM

troll - You said, "Talking to soldiers who have been there is called primary research, which, if you knew anything outside your own narrow little inbred political sphere, is an excellent method for checking the validity of the information coming in from secondary sources i.e. the media."

I know enough about soldiers and the effect of war on soldiers to dislike war completely. I also know that soldiers are trained, not to think, but to follow orders. I also know that they will go to great lengths to justify mans inhumanity to man. You have suggested that I should think for myself and that I do. You, however, are making plenty of assumptions based on very little information.

I doubt very much if you have talked to any of the soldiers who witnessed the attack on the Italian journalist (which is the subject of this thread) and I also doubt if you are any older or nastier than I am. You called me impolite. I don't think its very polite of you to accuse me of starting a war when all I am doing is stating an opinion.   

My post of Mar.11 at 1:51 A.M. states, "I certainly don't blame the soldiers. How easy it is to withold information as a means to an end. How easy it is to follow orders. How easy it is to kill someone with friendly fire if you perceive that person to be a threat. Its war. Shit happens."

From now on read the entire thread before you start pointing fingers. Its considered the polite thing to do and try not to let your mind wander away from the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:14 AM

dianavan, I did not call you impolite.I simply said that if you keep your posts polite, I will do the same.

For your information, I have read the entire thread. From what little I have read of your postings, I have formed the opinion, possibly incorect, trhat you are one of those prople who believes that if everyone had the facts you do, why they would automatically accept your position as the correct one and if they don't they must be either misinformed, stupid, or evil.

So far your posts indicate a certain rigidity of position. As you say, my observations are based on a rather small sample. I shall continue to observe and will modify my opinion as the data comes in.

Of course I haven't spoken personally with any of the soldiers involved in the incident. It would be silly of me to even hint that I had.

Wherever did you get THAT idea?

While it is true that soldiers are trained to obey without thinking in combat situations, (it's a good survival technique) they can and do think in non-combat situations. Some of them go mad.

The situation, as it appears to me at this point, is that soldiers as a checkpoint fired on a vehicle that did not slow down. This was not just following orders but survival in a place where suicide car bombs are commonplace.

I'm unsure what information was withheld from whom ("How easy it is to withold information as a means to an end"). Perhaps you can fill me in on this one.

As far as your dislike of war goes, the only people that I ever knew who genuinely LIKED war were sociopaths. I rather doubt that this label applies to all those who believe that sometimes war is necessary to remove a threat to their country. Remember, no one ever considers themselves the bad guy.

I have no intention of getting into a discusion about the validity or lack of same with regards to Iraq.

I simply ain't going there.

If you want to know who I am, ask 'Spaw or Kendall or McGrath of Harlow, or CarolC. I tealize that I have wandered of the topic a little but, hey!, all information has SOME value.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 08:15 AM

Dianavan's posts and links offer an explanation for why Sgrena might at first have thought she was targeted, but it's a big leap from there to saying that she was targeted. Hasn't she dropped that allegation anyway, in her later interviews?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 02:26 PM

I had a close friend who died of cancer about twenty years ago. He was not a musician, but he loved folk music, and during the Sixties, his house was always available on weekends if we folk music enthusiasts wanted to gather and have a songfest. He also had a massive collection of folk records, and as long as you were careful with them, you were welcome to borrow them to learn songs from them. He was one of Nature's noblemen.

He was of the Jewish persuasion, and hung on the wall of his living room, he had two small bits of parchment in frames with Hebrew script on them. I asked him once what they meant and he translated them for me. I liked them both, so I wrote them down and kept them. One was the quote by Hillel which I have posted above. I quoted it verbatim, the way he translated it for me. I am quite sure it is authentic, because, in addition to the consistency of its content, there is a poetic cohesion to it.

The other was the following:

Before he died, Rabbi Zusya of Hanipal said,
"In the world to come, they will not ask me, 'Why were you not Moses?'
They will ask me, 'Why were you not Zusya?'
                                                                              —Tales of Hasidim

Simple statements both, but they contain great wisdom.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 02:37 PM

I googled the Hillel quote, and I see what you mean. Most online sources seem to be fairly consistently, "who will be for me?" This may actually be it. I don't know Hebrew, but I do know that two people can translate the same statement in slightly varying ways. But I don't see that it changes the meaning all that much.

It's pretty similar to Jesus' "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Which is to say, "If I don't love myself, who will? But if I love only myself, what sort of creature am I?" (Ominous question.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 02:41 PM

Don:

Both your version and my version of the first quote from Hillel are (of course) translations. I think the version I posted gives more the sense of Hillel's words.

Your second aphorism posted directly above precisely matches how I remember it and it has moved me as it has moved you.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:39 PM

troll - "The situation, as it appears to me at this point, is that soldiers as a checkpoint fired on a vehicle that did not slow down."

Says who? Its my understanding that the car was travelling quite slowly after making a sharp turn. When they rounded the turn, the soldiers opened fire.

Guess we will have to wait and see what comes out of the investigation. I'd rather read what Sgrena herself has to say in the next few weeks, months, years.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:40 PM

Apopogies if someone has already pointed this out...

Communism is an economic system, not a political system. The political system in the Soviet Untion was not communism. It was totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is a kind of political system. The Soviet Union had a totalitarian political system with a communist economic system. It is possible to have a totalitarian political system with a capitalist economic system. It is also possible to have a communist economic system with a democratic political system.

Therefore, it is a non-sequitur to suggest that all Communists favor totalitarianism, just as it is an non-sequitur to suggest that all capitalist systems are democracies (fascist Italy being an example of a capitalist system that was also totalitarian). Sgrena's being a communist says absolutely nothing about what sort of person she is, except that she favors an economic system that promotes a more equal distribution of wealth than some other systems. It does not in any way suggest that she favors a totalitarian political system in order to bring about the economic system she favors.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:42 PM

LOL

apologies

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 04:00 PM

Good analysis, Carol! Exactly so!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 05:00 PM

Carol, that is only one definition of communism. The other definition, typically with a capital C, is Marxist socialism as developed by Lenin involving a theory of inevitable historical development culminating in a 'dictatorship of the proletariat'. Claiming that the Soviet Union was an experiment in which communism was not tried is a copout.

One can make a converse argument, BTW, that in 'fascist' Italy the economy was whatever the Fascist leader said it was, hence not a true capitalism. However, around the world there are genuine capitalist economies with all sorts of mostly democratic governments, whereas I can't think of a significant case of a democratic government with a 'communist' economy.

Personally I'd rather use the word 'socialist' which is more generic and genuine.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 05:16 PM

My point still stands, robomatic, in the case of Ms. Sgrena. The term "communism" does not always or necessarily refer to the way the Soviet Union (or any other totalitarian government using a communist economic system) conducted its political affairs. It can also refer to someone who believes in a democratic political system that uses a communist economic system. So it is still a non-sequitur to try to impute any sort of anything watever about Ms. Sgrena based only on the fact that she considers herself to be a Communist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 05:41 PM

It was certainly a command economy in the USSR Carol, but that doesn't mean it was a communist economy.

I don't see the mileage in the distinction you draw between economics and politics. Communism is the term applied to a certain social and economic system. But it is also applied to political movements that seek to implement that system. I make the point only because in this thread we have been using the term in its latter sense - quite legitimately.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 06:23 PM

In order for it to be like the Soviet Union, a communist (or socialist) economic system also has to be a totalitarian system. And as I've said, it is possible for a communist economic system to have a democratic political system. I think you need to have been brought up in the US, where being called a communist is, in terms of the severety of the accusation, about as bad as being called a Nazi (I draw your attention to robomatic's 12 Mar 05 - 10:42 AM post - this part, in particular: Is the fact that there are eurocommunists now any different from the fact that there are euronazis now?), to understand why this distinction is important when discussing the case of someone like Ms. Sgrena.

Just because someone believes in communism as an economic system, doesn't mean that they also prefer a totalitarian political system. Has Ms. Sgrena written any editorial pieces in which she has advocated totalitarianism? If not, any accusations that because she is a communist (and for that reason alone), she is not to be believed, are just speculation and have no validity.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 07:19 PM

"It was certainly a command economy in the USSR Carol, but that doesn't mean it was a communist economy."

except that was what THEY called it...




Jesus was a Communist - It's In The Book!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 07:48 PM

The following is taken from Ms. Sgrena's column in Il Manifesto, the newspaper for which she works.

"The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell. Nicola Calipari sat next to me. The driver twice called the embassy and in Italy that we were heading towards the airport that I knew was heavily patrolled by U.S. troops. They told me that we were less than a kilometer away...when...I only remember fire. At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us, shutting up forever the cheerful voices of a few minutes earlier."

I find no mention of speed or curves. I do, however, find mention of nearly losing control of the car while trying to avoid puddles in the road (underpass specifically) which I interpret as driving at a fairly high rate of speed on a road that she knew to be heavily patrolled.

It is my understanding that Ms. Sgrean has changed details of her story several times, so I'm not too sure how a reliable she is as a witness.

Until I see further documented information, I will stand by my
original statement: the car didn't stop, they shot at it.

Foolestroupe, re. Jesus.

tune; Jesse James

Born in 29 B.C. in the town of Galilee,
Bathed in his unwed mothers tears.
He said, "Take it from the rich, and give it to the poor."
He pre-dated Marx by eighteen hundred years

Ch.
Jesus had no wife to mourn for his life.
He needed a bath and a shave.
But that foe of the proletariat, Judas Iscariot.
Laid poor Jesus in his grave.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 08:54 PM

Remarks from Sgrena

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 12:15 AM

Carol: My remarks on Communism were not directed at Ms. Sgrena. They stand fine as they are. Your comments are rather confusing because Communism as practised pretty much in any country calling itself such was an overarching totalitarian system incorporating not only a command economy, but a command media, command philosophy, cult of personality, and command arts & sciences staffed from a command educational system.

My question on whether the fact that there are now eurocommunists is any different than the fact that there are now euronazis extant was never answered.

As to Ms. Sgrena, her assertions of being targeted by Americans (as opposed to being shot for speeding past a checkpoint) were not based on any facts that she brought forward. There is some question as to whether she is still asserting them. Her relation of the facts as she knows them seems to be a moving target. These qualities speak for themselves irrespective of what you call her or she calls herself, the most important word is not whether she qualifies as a big C or little c Communist, but whether she qualifies as any sort of journalist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:34 AM

I doubt whether journalism or communism was in Ms Sgrena's mind immediately following the incident. The trauma of being a hostage and of being the target of U.S. troops would clearly indicate that she has been victimized. I don't think its fair to criticize anything she has to say about the matter. She was there and it was her life that was at stake. On top of that, she now bears the burden of survivor's guilt. To start criticizing her ability to be objective or to question her political motives is highly insensitive.

troll - From my link of Mar. 5 7:21 - One Pentagon version claims that you were driving at more than 100 miles an hour, 160 kilometres an hour.

"Absurd. Just after saying that, the driver braked because there was a sharp right-hand bend. He slowed right down. We certainly weren't going fast. As we were coming out of the bend, the gunfire started. From the right and the rear. Burst of fire and single shots. It's not true that they shot at the engine, from in front".

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:45 AM

From CBS news -

"Berlusconi told the Senate this week that Calipari had informed the proper authorities that he was heading to the airport with the freed hostage. He said the car was traveling slowly and stopped immediately when a light was flashed at a checkpoint, before U.S. troops fired on the car.

In a statement released after the shooting, the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division, which controls Baghdad, said the vehicle was speeding and refused to stop. The statement also said a U.S. patrol tried to warn a driver with hand and arm signals, by flashing white lights and firing shots in front of the car into the car's engine block.

In interviews published Friday, Sgrena said that no light was flashed at the vehicle and that the shots were not fired in front of the car.

"It's not true that they shot into the engine," she told Corriere della Sera, adding that the shooting came "from the right and from behind."

In a parliament speech earlier this week, Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini said photos of the vehicle, which is still in Iraq, show that the fire "hit the right side of the car."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:48 AM

Your comments are rather confusing because Communism as practised pretty much in any country calling itself such was an overarching totalitarian system incorporating not only a command economy, but a command media, command philosophy, cult of personality, and command arts & sciences staffed from a command educational system.

Yes. If you look at it in terms of countries that have called themselves communist. But if you think in terms of a country that considers itself a democracy, but one in which communism is practiced, you get a whole different perspective. I'm guessing that there are no examples of a democratic country that practices communism so far. I'm guessing that there are people (Ms. Sgrena possibly being one of them) who believe that it is still possible, and would like to help nurture such a political and economic environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:48 PM

Robo, I thought your question about eurocommunism v euronazism was answered. The former have been part of mainstream democratic politics in Europe for many years. The same cannot be said for fasism in any shape or form. Foulestroupe's point about what Soviets called their system is obviously to be taken with a pinch of salt. Basically they called it whatever Uncle Koe wanted them to call it.

Here in the UK I read the daily paper the Morning Star, which gives better coverage of labour-relations issues etc than some of the other papers. It has a kind of communist agenda which I can take or leave, but it is better than some of the filth (which I also keep an eye on) produced by the press barons. I don't know about the mag Sgrena works for, but it would be absurd to blacken her purely because it is communist.

My point all along has been that there is a gulf of difference between American and European perceptions of communism. I don't know that it's necessary (if this is what Carol is implying) to find new terminology just because US paranoia has debased the terminology we already have. (And Christian paranoia too, for that matter. Let's not forget that the Vatican at one time railed against liberalism, and even democracy.)

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:27 PM

Don Firth:

There is a major difference between:
(Correct version):
If I am not for myself who will be for me?

and:
(Incorrect version):
If I am not for myself, who am I?

The first has a very specific point to make, the second is kind of nebulous, or mysterious, it could be applied in so many ways that in fact it loses meaning. The correct version goes better with the two lines which follow, and which you already had correct.

So I did not think I was making a niggling remark to call your attention to it. Obviously I thought it was significant enough to bring it up here.

I don't think Hillel's comment compares with Jesus' "Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself" . I think they are different sayings with different meanings and applications. You can find "Love the stranger in thy midst" in Hebrew scripture which may be the origin of Jesus' saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:29 PM

My point all along has been that there is a gulf of difference between American and European perceptions of communism. I don't know that it's necessary (if this is what Carol is implying) to find new terminology just because US paranoia has debased the terminology we already have.

No, my point is exactly the same one you are making. That there is a gulf of difference between how people in the US and Europe react to and understand the words "communism" and "communist", and that this difference in perception is important to keep in mind when discussing the credibility or lack of credibility of Ms. Sgrena based on her being a Communist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:44 PM

A soldier will have to live with that on their conscience.
This is a young bloke who has probably been out there for afew months, is scared to death, has seen friends get shot and has shot other people, and is fully aware of just how fragile life is for him at the moment. Its a fucked up situation, things like this happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:33 PM

Honestly, robomatic, I didn't intend to make a federal case out of it, nor am I particularly ego-involved in the accuracy of the translation, especially since it is not my own (as I said, I don't speak Hebrew). I was relaying the Hillel quote as it was translated for me by my friend, who spoke Hebrew fluently. If it was not as most people would translate it, that I don't know. I presume that my friend had a reason for translating it the way he did. Perhaps it is one of those things that can be read either way, but as to that, I couldn't say.

But—what I was attempting to point out in my original post on the subject was that, as Troll posted it, the quote was incomplete. "If I am not for myself, who will be?" (or whatever) standing by itself could be someone's brief for self-centeredness. In the complete thought that Hillel was endeavoring to put across, "If I am only for myself, what am I?" negates the self-centered aspect of it. That was where I drew the parallel with the Jesus quote, which strikes me as saying essentially the same thing, but in a somewhat different frame.

Anyway, that's all I was trying to say.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:36 PM

Also, the "who am I? / what am I?" parallelism seemed poetically consistent to me.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:53 PM

Don:
I'm going to apologize because I sense that I'm getting your goat and that is not what I was trying to do. I agree and applaud with your filling out the complete quote for the thread. It's a great quote and one I think of a great deal. I was trying to 'speak to the quote' not play any kind of upmanship and I've said all I need to say on the subject. Peace unto you.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 07:18 PM

Re:

Communism
Or
"A rose, by any other name, would stink the same"
(Willie the Shake)

A drunk was on his hands and knees at the base of a street lamp. the cop on the beat went over to him. "What's the matter, mac?"
"Dropped my keys," said the tipsillated one.
"Just a minute and I'll help," said the cop, but there were no keys to be found. "You sure you were here when you dropped 'em?"
"No," said the drunk, "I was at my front door over there," he pointed to a house about 200 feed away.
The copy said,"Then why are you looking for your keys over here?"
the drunk answered, "The light is better here!"

And so after 100 years of Marxism, and 70 plus years of absolute control over a great country, Communism had so utterly failed as a system of economy, philosophy, and every other way except some capable use of physical intimidation, that it collapsed from the inside. And what is left is so rotten and corrupt that recovery is not assured. This is where the accrual of certainty leads.

I had a chance to visit the Soviet Union in better times. Their economy was doing well, they were doing cutting edge space exploration, and the ice cream was terrific. But try to tell a joke on the street and a friend would shut you up. And if you asked what was wrong with political jokes you were fed a bunch of long-winded propaganda. In America the only problem with political jokes is when they get elected.

So for those of you who think it is merely a matter of properly 'labeling' the 'politics de jour' you can label every 'defeat' a 'victory' and really simplify matters. The folks who called themselves Communists in Eastern Europe and China created civil wars, massive population displacements, economic malfunctions, military industrial complexes, show trials, mass starvation, and doublethink. If you look hard to the east you can see that of the three remaining governmental systems, one has been able to starve hundreds of thousands of its own citizens while pursuing nuclear weapons, and the other two are CINO's, they are practising state sponsored capitalism after a fashion in maoist rags.

The existence of eurocommunism makes me think of the Santayana phrase about what befalls those who do not learn from history. But what it really makes me ponder is that poor drunk on his hands and knees looking for those keys where the light is better.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 07:20 PM

I recall reading somewhere (I guess I should archive this stuff) that the driver said there was a light and immediately afterward the shooting started. We are told that Ms. Sgrena was in the back seat. I will assume that the driver was in the front and probably in a better position to see the road ahead.

Another thing that bothers me is her statement that they had just rounded a sharp bend in the road and so were going quite slowly. I don't know how they build six-lane highways in Iraq, but I've never seen a major multi-lane hiway with sharp bends. Usually they are fairly gentle and banked so that traffic flows smoothly. A major hiway like the one to the Baghdad Airport would surely be of modern design if only to avoid delaying Saddam on his way to and fro.

Has anyone got a map of that section of road that they could share or provide a link to? It would sure help me understand this particular part of the incident better

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 07:32 PM

No apology necessary, robomatic. I probably didn't make myself clear in my original post about the quote, and I just wanted to straighten out where I was coming from.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 08:53 PM

I heard recently that the European Parliament tried to ban the Swastika - but India - who have used it as a Religious Symbol for Goodness for ages strongly objected. It's not the object - but the societal mental associations.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 09:08 PM

troll - I don't have a map but... "Sgrena said, "It was the alternative route to the airport, that one that as far as I know goes through the American-controlled green zone and avoids residential areas."

If you find out where that road is and how many lanes it has, let me know.

What I don't understand is why you think she would be going out of her way to mislead an investigation. Seems there were two survivors and they both seem to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:31 AM

Dianavan - She's anti-American by her own admission. I would think that the chance to inflict damage on America would be reason enough.

Even if the investigation proves her wrong, the accusation has been made and the damage done. Dr. Goebels knew the value of the lie in shaping opinions. There are plenty of people who are ready to believe the worst about us, regardless of the final outcome.

Her story keeps changing. First it was a tank and 300 to 400 bullets. Well, I saw pictures of an armored SUV that was hit 35 times by heavy machinegun fire. All the windows were gone, the four people inside dead, and it was obvious that the car had been in a fight.

The pics that I saw of Ms. Sgrena's car showed 1 (one) bullet hole in the front windshield and a flat left front tire.

Either the shooters were (a) such good shots that they were able to put 300 to 400 shots through one hole or (b) such lousy shots that they missed altogether.

She also said that the shots came from the right and from the rear.
With a dead man on top of her, I don't see how she could tell. from the right I could accept; the bullet hole in the windshield was on the right-hand side. But from the rear?

If the windshield hole was made from the rear, where is the entry hole?

I also read that in a BBC interview, she said that they shined a light into the car and then started shooting.

But wait! Didn't she say that there was no light?

Ah well.

I found most of this info from a bloger called Jawa and on his links.I found the site when I Googled "Sgrenas car photos". The photos were first published in "Republica", an Italian publication.

No joy on a map as yet.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 02:10 AM

troll, there is a difference between what she has said and what others have said.

"Her editor, Gabriele Polo, said Italian officials told him 300-400 rounds were fired at the car."

Please tell me where she said that.

There is also a difference between a warning light and a light followed immediately by live ammunition.

There are many unanswered questions but I think you are putting words in Sgrena's mouth.

Did she say she was anti-American or did she say that she did not approve of the war in Iraq? There's a big difference.

Did she say she was a target? I think that theory was put forth by a former U.S. Air Force intelligence officer: "It is quite reasonable to assume, given the immorality of war and of this war in particular, that it was considered a military target."

Jerry Fresia

Seems to me that you and alot of others are trying to discredit Sgrena. Why? What are you afraid of? Do you think she might tell the world what happened in Fallujah?

I want to hear what she has to say after the investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:48 AM

Sgrena told colleagues the vehicle was not travelling fast and had already passed several checkpoints on its way to the airport. The Americans shone a flashlight at the car and then fired between 300 and 400 bullets at if from an armoured vehicle.

from this article in the left of the middle Guardian.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 06:59 AM

It seems to have been overlooked that this was not the first journalist who was killed by US troops in Iraq - about a dozen other - and many of them are claimed to have been deliberately targeted - and in some cases sound track & video exists of the unprovoked firing on them.

It would understandable that she may fear the same treatment....

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:13 PM

No. 1) We're still waiting for facts.

Foolestroupe you're correct that many journalists have died from crossfire, proximity to rocket attack, and partisans of the same ilk as allegedly kidnapped Ms. Sgrena.

But checkpoints are effing dangerous. Yesterday I heard a radio interview with a Washington Post reporter who was traveling recently with a group of GIs who stopped to set up one of those 'intermediate' roadblocks. They explained that they were trying to stop suicide car bombs. "How do you find them?" she asked.

"We find them when they try to blow us up."

So for better or worse, that's the mind set of the soldiers, who are folk like you and me who are expecting someone to try and kill THEM.

Anyhow, Ms. Sgrena has actually spoken enough that her own words are contradicting her other words.

SO:

Refer to No 1) Still waiting for facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:44 PM

Dianavan, the quote below is from a report in The Guardian, which is certainly NOT a US supporter.

"Sgrena told colleagues the vehicle was not travelling fast and had already passed several checkpoints on its way to the airport. The Americans shone a flashlight at the car and then fired between 300 and 400 bullets at if from an armoured vehicle."

I hope this clears up that point.

I tend not to put words in other peoples mouths deliberately. Since I am not perfect, I do sometimes slip but it is never deliberate and, as any of the old-timers on the forum can tell you, if I'm wrong, I generally 'fess up.

If you'd like to read her version of the events (her FIRST version) in her own words, go to the il Manifesto site. They have a whole stack of her columns on archive.

Btw, apparently she didn't have much of an expose about Fallujah. Seems the civilian leaders didn't want to talk to her. It's all in her article "My Truth".

Read it,if you haven't already.

troll

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 06:11 PM

Just heard on the news that PM Berlusconi has announced he's pulling Italian troops out of Iraq starting in September:

Italians to Pull Out

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 10:11 PM

"Seems the civilian leaders didn't want to talk to her"

Well, sympathetic to their cause or not, she is a woman... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 12:02 AM

The check point that fired on Sgrena and killed Calipari was a temporary checkpoint set up for Negroponte. Sgrena and Calipari had already cleared the established check points.

There appears to be no reason the temporary check point should have been there at all since Negroponte had cleared about an hour and a half earlier. Temporary check points are usually dimantled when no longer needed.

This particular check point was still operational and leaves little doubt that it had a very specific purpose once Negroponte had cleared. American intelligence knew they were coming to the airport! I do not expect the U.S. investigation to point a finger at itself and I do think that Negroponte is capable of just about anything - look at his history.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:25 PM

Basically there are three possibilities:

1)It was a tragic accident and noone was to blame.

2)It was a tragic accident, and someone was to blame.

3)It was an ambush.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:29 PM

Sgrena's medical condition is very serious. The shell that entered her body was very big and injured her lung which continues to fill with fluid. I am astonished that other journalists have not followed up on this story. The only recent info I could find was on Znet. Please go to their site and read the latest.

Troll - This article, although it does not show a map, clearly explains the road that they were on when they were ambushed. It also details the reasons why it was not an act of self defense by the soldiers.

"According to Klein, when Calipari was killed and Sgrena wounded, they were on a secured road that can only be accessed through the heavily-fortified Green Zone and is reserved exclusively for top foreign embassy and US officials. "It's a completely separate road, actually a Saddam-era road, it would seem, that allowed his vehicles to pass directly from the airport to his palace," says Klein. "And now that is the secured route between the U.S. military base at the airport and the U.S. controlled Green Zone and the U.S. embassy."

"It was a VIP road, for embassy people, not for normal people," Sgrena told Klein. "I was only able to be on that road because I was with people from the Italian embassy."

So when Calipari, the Italian security intelligence officer, picked up Sgrena from the abandoned vehicle where her captors left her, they drove directly to that road via Green Zone.

That explains why Sgrena said that when they drove to the airport she "thought we were finally safe, because the area where we were was under the control of the United States."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:25 AM

Well, well, well... Am I suprized?

After the U.S. investigated themselves, they seem to think everything was in order on their part.

Only one little problem - They won't let the Italians inspect the car or interview the soldiers.

The Italians are not taking this lightly!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:39 PM

Something worth noting is the way that the media consistently treat stories like this - they swarm all over them at the start, and then move on, and nine times out of ten fail even to report at all what happens later, when the facts can be sorted out from the rumours and the alegations and the cover stories and the spin.

That even goes for the "quality press".

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:17 AM

I posted a longer ms this AM but some glitch swallowed it up, so I'll be brief.

I looked up dianavan's reference to znet and I think she quoted it accurately but it is distinctly different from the oft reported comments that GI s shot 'for the engine block'. The reference to the road as being independently protected and thus 'safe' was also new to me as regards this story. It also reiterates the charge that she was shot from a tank.

Last week's American TV program "60 Minutes II" featured an extended interview with Ms. Sgrena who appeared to be putting up with her wounds very well. She maintained her argument that the Americans didn't warn. The subjects of whether the road was supposed to be independently accessed and 'safe' and if the bullets were from the rear didn't come up. I had a pointer to the written synopsis of the article but I don't have time to redo my earlier post. Do a search for Sgrena "60 minutes" and it should crop up under the cbsnews.com site.

I'm now curious as to who came to the aid of the Italians and what they saw.

Supposedly the Americans will issue a release soon. I'll be very interested in how this resolves.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 01:37 PM

Although this is probably not the most reliable source. This is the best map I could find:

http://www.vialls.com/italy/sgrena.html

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 02:17 PM

Di-van:

It is a piece of crap as a source.

As an example, within the same article as the useless 'map' (which is actually an aerial photograph with red markings on it), is the assertion that most of the 'beheadings' we've witnessed on television or the web are orchestrated by CIA and Mossad.

Di-van your previous source I gave some credence to, although it looked like it was probably a hodge podge of assertions. This latest one there is no doubt is pure garbage.

The internet is a dangerous place for you, di-van. You're going to find a lot of people who lie to you and then lie on you, divan.

If you can't tell the difference between crap and information, please start your own thread. You're going to attract too many flies to this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 07:13 PM

I linked it because of the map which I think (in the absence of something more reliable) is the best that is out there. I already said I didn't think the article was the best source of information. Thats why I didn't quote it. Just because the article may be crap, doesn't mean the map is.

The internet is a dangerous place for anyone, robo. I have a critical consciousness and read all kinds of crap. Doesn't mean I believe it. I happen to think most Mudcatters can take what they need and leave the rest. What are you afraid of?

Since when do you have exclusive rights to a thread? Anyone can post here. What are you, some kind of control freak?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:21 PM

Di-van:

You are absolutely right. You can post whatever you want as many times as you want. Lord knows at least you're not turning the air blue like some folks. I disagree with your self judgement that you are a critical reader. If you go back to that article AND READ IT you'll see that it is full of outrageous unfounded exaggerations. Whatever makes you think that the illustration is of anything whatsoever? What does it contribute to the he-said she-said nature of the story to-date?

There is a difference between information and content. Princeton has just published an article by a philosopher on the nature of Bullshit. Unfortunately the web provides a neverending pipeline of bullshit to all and sundry, and forums like this allow a brief interlude when we can *maybe* filter it out, in between repeating ourselves, furnishing endless blue clickies, and screaming insults at each other.

I'm finished for now. I sent you (Dianavan) a PM as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:32 PM

Leaving aside other points, "an aerial photograph with red markings on it" is in principle quite an accurate sort of map. A lot harder to adjust than a drawn map. (In fact the aaccount given in that rather questionable site goes against the other suggestions quoted earlier that the road used was not the main road, but a special one reserved for official use. But that doesn't necessarily mean much.

I'm hoping that reliable independent journalists or similar will dig away at this and come up with the facts behind the spins and counter spins. Anything coming out of an "official inquiry" will inevitably be pretty suspect. (That would even apply to any offical Italian inquiry, given the nature of the current Italian administration.)

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 11:19 PM

McGrath - Thanks for the reasoned approach to the questionable article and map. I, too, would hope that a reliable journalist might come up with something better.

Yes, I think you are right. The road that Sgrena was on was not the main road but a special one reserved for official use. Regardless, it appears that they cleared the checkpoints aroung the airport and were within the perimeter. This map may be wrong but it makes me wonder why no other map has been published.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 05:37 PM

dianavan,

you said "After the U.S. investigated themselves, they seem to think everything was in order on their part."


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/26/italy.iraq/index.html


A pity that, like usual, you have the facts wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 09:07 PM

I posted that comment a week ago. At that time, the U.S. was claiming self-defense and stories that conflicted with those of Sgrena and the driver.

Even now, with a joint investigation, the Italians and the Americans do not agree. Until today, reports were that the American soldiers were going to be exonerated. Today the story is quite different.

I'm glad the Italians are putting on the pressure and even happier that Italian magistrates are conducting a separate investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 11:08 AM

Report from a 'credible' source

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:51 PM

Surely you don`t expect a fair judgement from these lying murderers, the US army will always cover up their murderous deeds.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 12:44 AM

A report from another credible source that you do not need to subscribe to:

http://www.agi.it/english/news.pl?doc=200504272027-1274-RT1-CRO-0-NF11&page=0&id=agionline-eng.oggitalia


The Italians are not finished with this investigation and Sgrena is calling for public support to reveal the truth of the matter. She is also calling for Italy to withdraw from Iraq now. She is hoping that Americans will also call for their troops to be withdrawn immediately.

I am amazed that U.S. journalists and, in fact, journalists worldwide do not cover this story more extensively. It seems to me that professionals should protect each other from this kind of abuse. Where is the integrity? For awhile, the only information we had were carbon copies. I do have faith that the truth will be told and that eventually we will hear both sides of the story. Freedom of speech is at stake here.

Sgrena is very, very sick. She is a courageous journalist who continues to battle the pain inflicted upon her by the U.S. military. There is no excuse for their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:12 AM

Another credible link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4489217.stm

Google calipari or sgrena for at least 413 links.

You decide who is or is not credible.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: NH Dave
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:18 AM

Raedwulf, you commented on the weapon on the Humvee pictured. I was unable to view that link, but the Humvee is a multipurpose vehicle, and some version mount a TOW Anti-Tank Missile. I believe many versions, like most of the older military vehicles, are equipped to mount a .50 calibre/12 mm machine gun. I don't believe anyone making his or her living around a war zone, or more correctly, a not fully pacified zone whoud mistake a Humvee for a tank, especially if they hoped to be able to write home about it.   

This having been said, from the look of the vehicle pictured on one of the other sites, nothing larger than a 7.62 mm round was fired into it. Either a .50 cal or the 40 mm grenade launchers would have left the vehicle in tatters from the front to the rear.

From what I have read so far, it was dark, the vehicle failed to stop at the improvised check point, it was fired upon, causing the unfortunate death of a brave Italian security specialist. I can see no reason to suspect that the US Forces wished to assasinate Mrs. Sgrena, even of they had been able to pick her vehicle out from the many similar ones in use in Baghdad these days. I wasn't able to make out any sign of diplomatic plates on the Italian vehicle, but the front end looked as if it had struck something large and soild, so this isn't hard to understand. In any case, I doubt if the US patrool could have known who was in the car, a very good reason to insure that it didn't get much closer to them, after failing to stop at their signal.

Someone earlier expressed doubts that US Soldiers have the capability to or actually do think for themselves. I find this hard to believe, as robotic people make poor soldiers, and don't last long in chaotic situations like we are seeing in Iraq. Unthinking soldiers simply chuck a grenade into every window they encounter, under the theory of one of the Spanish Inquisitors, "Kill them all, God knows his own." Unfortunately, this does not make for better relations between our forces and the Iraqis, and the fact that things seem to be getting a bit better, belies this characterization of our forces.

Having read newspaper accounts of life in this area as contrasted to stories I get from people still over there, or recently returned, I think the news sources are playing up the infrequent fire fighte, and failing to mention the many instances of our pacification program actually working. Again, this having been said, the area around Baghdad and points slightly south and east are the old haunts of the formerly dominant Suunis who controled pre-war Iraq. These people have little to gain from a self governing Iraq, run my the majority Shi'ia, and the Kurds in the north, and much to lose, so it is little wonder that they are still fighting for some hopes of the old status quo.

Again, noting some of the unbiased reporting of US atrocities, abeit with a bit of salt; AC-130's don't fire bullets through a window, they reduce the entire building to finely ground rubble, leaving no stone standing upon another. If this is the sources of fact that some of the people in this thread are using, they need to reasses their facts and the sources from which they are drawn.

The US Forces based in north eastern Italy have always had a lot of unfavorable publicity from the local Communist Party, who held an annual festival honoring the first of May, now but a day away. We were asked not to become involved in these shows, let them do their thing, and we'd do ours. Unfortunately, a severe earthquake hit that region, some time ago, and as soon as we could muster our troops, as many as could be spared from the day to day running of the base were out in the smaller villes, with front or scoop loaders and heavy tractors, able to lift heavy bits of roof or upper floor from many locals still burried in the rubble, and medical facilities ready to treat anyone rescued to help preserve whatever life was still there to be saved. After this disaster, the local Communists were hard pressed to muster the crowds they usually drew, to demonstrate against the vile and depraved Capitalistic Lackies, who had helped dig uncle Luigi, or sister Marina out of what had been their home. Many more remembered the blood donated by these foreigners, who were actually not that much different than their own people, and whose blood and medecine helped save various friends in their village.

The results of the US investigation seem to have been released yesterday, and they exonerated the young men and women at that roadblock. Not surprizing, say many of the Italians and many of our detractors; and Prime Minister Burlesconi says that he will withdraw Italian troops from the Occupation Forces in Iraq.

What I think we will find after the dust has settled was that folks traveling too fast, in the dark, on a very dangerous section of road, either failed to see or interpret the need to stop at a road block, and were subsequently were fired upon; or that a car with people overjoyed that one of their own had been rescued without harm, began to blow right through a road block and were stopped. In the dark, on a dangerous section of Iraqi road, kids from downtown Scranton have a very few seconds to decide if the vehicle approaching them is a mobile improved explosive device, or just some happy civilians trying to get their countrywoman to the airport, to return home. The robotic solder would have never blinked an eye! The car would have been reduced to rubble, mixed with flesh and blood. Thinking soldiers tried to give the occupants of the car a chance to stop and identify themselves, and when no identification was offered fired as a last resort.

Nobody was right, OR wrong. Unfortunate things do happen in situations like this, and both sides uncurred harm and injury.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:45 PM

44 minutes ago

"ROME - Italy and the United States said Friday the investigation into the killing of an Italian agent by U.S. forces in    Iraq had ended but they failed to fully agree on the circumstances surrounding the shooting.

"The two governments issued a joint statement into the March 4 death of intelligence agent Nicola Calipari, who was killed after he had secured the release of an Italian hostage. U.S. soldiers mistakenly fired on their vehicle as it approached a U.S. checkpoint near Baghdad's airport.

"It said the investigation into the shooting had been concluded and the two countries will now refer the case to their respective national authorities. Italy has launched its own criminal inquiry into the death.

"The investigators were unable to reach shared final conclusions, but after having jointly examined the evidence, they did agree on facts, deductions and numerous problematic recommendations," the statement said.

"Italy and the United States had worked for a month on the joint investigation in the killing, which sparked outrage in Italy and put increasing pressure on Premier Silvio Berlusconi to withdraw Italy's estimated 3,000-strong contingent from Iraq.

"But from the start, testimony from the two survivors of the shooting clashed with the U.S. military's account."

Investigated - No Agreement

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 05:16 PM

From that summary of the conclusions it sounds very much as if the US investigation team saw it as their job to accept the US military account, rather than that of the survivors, rather than to try to check out which was more consistent with the physical evidence, with no preconceptions whatsoever.

A bit of a widgery, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:33 AM

Seems to be a lot of conflicting testimony. The Italians believe the Italians and the Americans believe the Americans. No big surprise!

Unfortunately, the U.S. has lost another ally.

I hope we get to hear what the Italians have to say about the car (if its the same car) and what ballistics have to say about whether they were fired upon from the front or the rear. I have heard so many stories about this incident that I don't know what to believe.

I do think it may be Bush's Waterloo. How many more allies can he afford to lose. I guess he really does want to, "...go it alone."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:38 AM

Latest info is that the satellite photographs show the car to have been moving at a high rate of speed ( in excess of 60 miles per hour, NOT less than 30 as the Italian reporter stated.....

But of course, one can't accept any fact without deciding whether it supports your own viewpoint...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 02:24 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,Lielani
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 02:25 AM

God this is all so sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: podman
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 07:58 AM

australian news

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 02:17 PM

beardedbruce - Where did you get that info? Sources, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:20 PM

Beardedbruce, The US dirty-tricks dept could have this car doing any speed they prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 04:03 PM

One of the interesting points that have been reported is that Calipari did inform U.S. personnel of the plan but that there wasn't enough time to inform the soldiers at the makeshift checkpoint.

This makes sense and certainly exonerates the soldiers at the checkpoint. It is also a another excuse for poor communication on the side of the U.S. and makes it entirely possible that the U.S. knew exactly what would happen if they witheld such critical information from their soldiers.

Its pretty sad that, like most wars, the soldiers are doing the dirty work while the guy that gives the orders (or doesn't change the orders) gets to walk. I don't think this can be chalked up to an accident of war.

As far as I'm concerned, there have been one too many, "friendly fire" incidents in Iraq. The citizens of the U.S. should be outraged that this war is being fought in their name and that the result has been a loss of one ally after another.

Someone should tell Bush that no man is an island.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 06:29 PM

WTOP radio. They reported the satellite photos were showing the car at a rate of greater than 60 mph. As I said, people will only believe the facts that support the conclusion they want to draw.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: DougR
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 06:32 PM

Sad to believe, BB, but I think you are right.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 06:36 PM

Actually, I try to remain somewhere in the middle, but on Mudcat that makes me a far right extremist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 06:54 PM

I think people are entitled to expect that in a case like this the investigators would have felt duty bound to be completely objectuve and dispassionate and seen their duty as being to search out the truth, regardless of what that might be.

An honest investigation like that might have been forced to say that there was uncertainty about some issues - but it is inconceivable that it could have ended up with as "the Italians believe the Italians and the Americans believe the Americans".

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 07:09 PM

Well, early on the Italian 'journalist' Sgrena was imputing that the Americans had targeted her car, and both the Italians and Americans agree that didn't happen.

Ms. Sgrena seems to have had other problems with the distinction between fact and fiction.

The satellite information looked interesting, but probably not definitive enough to change anyone off of their established positions.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:41 PM

If I were in Sgrena's shoes at the time, I probably would have thought I was being targetted. What else was she supposed to believe? She was told the Americans did not want her set free, she knew Calipari was a professional and had it all arranged. She says they were not speeding and she didn't see or hear a warning before shots were fired. What would you think if you were in her shoes?

I'm more likely to accept the first hand accounts of the two Italians who were there. I haven't heard what the soldiers said at the investigation. Have the Italians been given permission to interview the U.S. soldiers who were present? Why can't the Italians and the Americans agree on the conclusion?

Smells a whole lot fishy to me. Of course I never have been one to swallow the American Govt. version of things: hook, line and sinker. Why should I? Why should anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:16 PM

"I'm more likely to accept the first hand accounts of the two Italians who were there. I haven't heard what the soldiers said at the investigation. Have the Italians been given permission to interview the U.S. soldiers who were present? Why can't the Italians and the Americans agree on the conclusion?

Smells a whole lot fishy to me. Of course I never have been one to swallow the American Govt. version of things: hook, line and sinker. Why should I? Why should anyone? "



So if the satellite pictures show the car covering a distance that indicates a rate of speed more than twice the number given by the Italians, you would believe the statement of the people who have a vested interest in making the US look bad over the facts?

What about the condition of the car? What about the "tank" firing at them? What about the witnesses on the US side?

The statements indicate a bias.

Why should I swallow the Italian version of things: hook, line and sinker. Why should I? Why should anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 01 May 05 - 02:15 AM

What vested interest does the driver of the car have? Why would he want the U.S. to look bad. Italy is an ally of the U.S.

Will the U.S. witnesses be available for questioning by the Italians?

Satellite pictures can be doctored.

Lets wait and see what the Italians say about the condition of the car.

Where was the so-called tank positioned? Was it a tank?

Lots of questions to be answered, including why the Italians and Americans did not come to the same conclusion.

I don't think too many people have been killed by Italian, friendly fire. On the other hand, lots of people have been killed by U.S. friendly fire, including Canadians! Lets face it, the U.S. has a piss poor record of communication with their allies. Why would anyone want to fight beside an ally that might as well be the enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 01 May 05 - 11:14 AM

US Says Italian Driver was Distracted, Driving Too Fast

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:15 PM

Robo - Can you copy some of the article? I don't have a subscription.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:29 PM

From Today's New York Times:

Ex-Hostage's Italian Driver Ignored Warning, U.S. Says

By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr. and ROBERT F. WORTH

Published: May 1, 2005



BAGHDAD, Iraq, April 30 - The car carrying the Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena that was struck with a deadly hail of gunfire as it sped toward Baghdad International Airport on March 4 ignored warnings from American soldiers who used a spotlight, a green laser pointer and warning shots to try to stop it as it approached a checkpoint, the American military said in a report released Saturday evening.


The gunfire killed Nicola Calipari, an Italian intelligence agent who was in the back seat with Ms. Sgrena. The driver and Ms. Sgrena were wounded. Lt. Gen. John R. Vines, the ground commander in Iraq, has approved a recommendation that soldiers involved in the shooting not be disciplined, the military said.

(there is a restatement of the political repercussions being experienced between Italian officials and the US. The article goes on:)
The report, which had many blacked-out parts, is the American military's first detailed account of the events. It asserts that the Italians ignored repeated warnings from American soldiers as they sped onto a part of the Baghdad airport road where soldiers are on a constant state of high alert because of the extraordinary risk of suicide car bombs and other insurgent attacks.


According to the report, 11 bullets fired by one American soldier hit the Italians' car, killing Mr. Calipari, after the car failed to heed the warnings. The car was traveling about 50 miles per hour - faster than other cars that night - as it approached the checkpoint and did not slow until struck by the bullets, the report said.


The driver "was dealing with multiple distractions including talking on the phone while driving, the conversation in the back seat, trying to listen for threats, driving on a wet road, focusing on tasks to be accomplished, the need to get to the airport, and the excited and tense atmosphere in the car," the report found. He shouted, "They are attacking us" into his phone when the firing began, the report said, adding that it was "highly unlikely" that any shots were fired after the car stopped. The fusillade lasted four seconds, it said.


The soldier who fired the shots complied with the military's rules of engagement, the report concluded. "After operating the spotlight, and perceiving the oncoming vehicle as a threat, he fired to disable it and did not intend to harm anyone," it said.


The report also asserted that the United States military "was totally unaware of the recovery and transport of Ms. Sgrena" until after the shooting. It said the troops stationed at the checkpoint were on their first full day on shift there and "lacked experience in issuing operational orders and in battle tracking security forces" at checkpoints.

There is more but I'm not comfortable with wholesale duping of current newspaper articles.

Registration with the New York Times is simple, free, and well worth having.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:32 PM

From the Australian:

"The US report recommends a "comprehensive review" of checkpoint and roadblock procedures.

It suggests replacing spotlights and warning shots with flashing lights and sirens to stop civilian cars at roadblocks, and the installation of road signs to warn motorists that they are approaching a checkpoint.

"The soldiers and leaders must look at the position ... from the perspective of Iraqi drivers and what they might see."

The report also recommends new rules to preserve the scene of friendly fire incidents, admitting its forensic findings were limited because the car, roadblock and bullet shells had been removed by the time inspectors arrived."

I find that last paragraph especially interesting.

Apparently the Italian version of the investigation will be released Monday night.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:47 PM

AN INTERESTING DEVELOPMENT

Those clever Italians got a copy of the official US report in PDF format with lots of blocked out portions. Apparently they knew something the American distributors didn't know, that in a digital document the information is still there. They copied the document into WORD format and were able to see the whole thing, and it is now available on the net. It is 34 pages long and full of military lingo and detailed to the point of tediousness. ASSUMING that what I've seen is genuine, it's a more minute account of what the New York Times has printed, e.g. the soldiers had set up a checkpoint and done everything by the book, a car travelling faster than any other car they'd seen that night came through, they attempted to get its attention with a spotlight and a green laser. After that failed, they fired at it, not explicitly to kill, and the driver stopped after receiving fire. They rendered aid. The entire incident took less time than it takes to describe, including less than four seconds of weapons fire. There was no firing after the car had stopped.

The official report says the Italians were proceeding faster than 50 mph.

At this point I don't have information on specifically where the Italians differ with the Americans. The Italians involved (Calipari and the driver) are accepted as being very experienced in the environment, and the driver was knowledgeable about Baghdad.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 May 05 - 05:55 PM

As dianavan said, Italy plans to release its report tomorrow.

FRANCES D'EMILIO, Associated Press Writer/ Yahoo News
1 hour, 10 minutes ago

"ROME - Italy will publish its own report Monday on the U.S. killing of an Italian intelligence agent after the two countries could not agree on the circumstances of last month's shooting at an American checkpoint in Baghdad.

"Italy said its report into the March 4 "friendly fire" shooting death of agent Nicola Calipari will focus on the problems of coordinating with Americans in    Iraq and the rules of conduct for U.S. troops at checkpoints.

"The Foreign Ministry document will be released two days after the U.S. military said its investigation had cleared American soldiers of wrongdoing in the checkpoint shooting that also injured Giuliana Sgrena, the Italian journalist that Calipari had just freed from insurgents.

"Italian newspapers published what they said were extracts of the report Sunday, with Italian investigators concluding that U.S. authorities were informed of the operation several hours before the shooting and were told of Sgrena's release 25 minutes before Calipari was killed."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:32 PM

What Robomatic said seems to be true. You can read both the official report (with the "black outs") and the complete version in

this link from the Corriere della Sera (which is considered a serious Italian source)

It's an interesting reading to see what information is considered to be blacked out.

What an utterly stupid blunder by the US government, BTW.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,Private Rights, Public Menace
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:44 PM

Wolfgang wrote: "What an utterly stupid blunder by the US government, BTW."

This would tie in with another topic, that with the kind of government we have the danger is not that the government will collect citizens information and have each and everyone under its thumb, but rather that the government will amass citizens informatioin and it will be easily nicked and sold off to the highest bidders, who will use it for ripping off all and sundry, and fixing insurance rates.

Still dangerous, but a more actual danger, and probably happening right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:46 PM

The evidence presented to the American tribunal

http://uk.download.yahoo.com/ne/fu/attachments/bubblewrap.swf

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:23 PM

Thanks for the link to the reporta, Wolfgang.

It is pathetic - in the REAL sense, not jargon - how very vulnerable the US Army is in Iraq. After two years of war - and a year after combat was pronounced over - the Army still must have guard vehicles for any travel, and "all of Iraq is considered a combat zone."

Just what are we doing there? What have we accomplished there? Who are we helping? Who is better off because we are there?

Reading the report made me sad for the American troops. They are in a no-win situation that carries the constant threat of death for themselves or for their friends and co-workers. Why are they there????

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 03 May 05 - 02:00 AM

From AGI online:

"At the prosecutor's office, finally, they are expressing more than a little perplexity about the fact that an American satellite may have filmed the scene of the shooting. "If these images exist, they should show then, and then it will be discussed whether or not they are relevant to the event we are dealing with."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 03 May 05 - 11:42 AM

And of course - my times given are both off by a year. Time flies when you're having fun. :(

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 03 May 05 - 06:23 PM

Well, there was supposed to be an Italian report out by now. All I've seen is a blurb about the Italians criticizing the Americans for poor communications and on-site inexperience. The Italian PM supposedly has tweaked the report to reduce its harshness towards the Americans. But notice of the real report I have yet to see. I'm making note here mainly to refresh the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 03 May 05 - 09:07 PM

What a muddy mess of misinformation. From ISN:

"The US report stated that the US soldiers had been unaware of the Italian rescue mission, since the Italian major-general who informed a US captain about the mission had added that "it is best if no one knows" when he passed on the information. The US officer reportedly took that statement to mean that he was not to relay the information further."

and yet other reports contradict this entirely.

One thing is for sure. The checkpoint was makeshift and not very visible with very few signals in place.

Of course the soldiers are not to blame but what about the US captain who didn't relay the information to the soldiers at the checkpoint? Why did they remove the evidence from the scene? Why so much unecessary cover-up.

...and you wonder why nobody trusts the U.S....

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 04 May 05 - 08:57 PM

The Italian report is out, 52 pages - in Italian. There have been some news articles if you do a search on "dueling reports" you will find 'em. The NYT is here:

Dueling Reports

The Italians take issue with the Americans on preserving evidence at the site, on the level of skill of the American soldiers at the checkpoint, of the visibility of the checkpoint, and other items.


The report said that the car carrying the agent, Nicola Calipari, a ranking official in Italian secret services, had not been an intentional target but that "some level of inexperience and stress could have led soldiers to reactions that were instinctive and not well controlled."


They have concluded, at least, that this was a tragic situation and not a targeted operation.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 05 - 01:49 AM

Tragic situation, yes. Who is accountable? How many tragic situations are needed before the U.S. gets there military operations and their communications in order?

What do you expect when the commander in chief is George W. Bush. Thats what you get with 'faulty intelligence' trying to run a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 05 - 09:52 PM

From AGI online:

"CALIPARI: ABSENCE OF CRIMINAL INTENT DOES NOT EXCLUDE GUILT
(AGI) - Rome, May 5 - "One thing is to come to the conclusion, as the US did, that there are no disciplinary responsibilities. Another thing is to detect the absence of voluntary intentions, as Italy did. One does not have to be an expert in penal law to know that the absence of criminal intent does not at all exclude guilt due to negligence, imprudence or incompetence. This is not a secondary difference", stated Premier Silvio Berlusconi."