Tech: Loudest openback banjo?

Subject: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: GUEST,Lonesome Gillette
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:15 PM

I'm thinking of playing my openback more for gigs, but it isn't loud enough, like my gibson. Anyone have any experience with a real loud openback?
I like the neck on My Bart Reiter and it's nice and light, but it's just too quiet in some settings.

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: GUEST,old head
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:36 PM

try a piece of light plywood or sim. on the back and it will project a bit more resonance. i tried it on a ukelele and it worked ok.all the best.

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:42 PM

Of course then it's not an open-back any more; it's got a homemade resonator. It should work, though.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: GLoux
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 02:09 PM

Someone once loaned me a Kevin Enoch fretless banjo for a week. I concluded that it was the loudest banjo I had ever played. Definitely louder than the Bart Reiters I had played.

Are you doing clawhammer or using picks?

Have you tried raising the action or changing the bridge or tailpiece to cause more tension on the bridge and head?

-Greg

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: GLoux
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 02:15 PM

I should have qualified my above references to banjos as open-back banjos...

You could also consider a banjo with a removable resonator, like an old Weyman.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: GUEST,Lonesome Gilette
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 02:55 PM

Thanks for the ideas.
I play 3 finger with picks and clawhammer without in the same show on the same banjo.
I have always felt a bit more relaxed with the openback. It's light weight, and because it has no resonator it dosent stick out nearly as far, so my wrist isn't as bent when I play. So I'd like to find an openback that feels like an openback but has a lot of kick like my a bluegrass banjo. It's a pipe dream I know...
I have heard of the internal resonator banjos, do those dound louder, or just different?

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 03:08 PM

The heavier the banjo, the louder it is. Also, you might consider using heavier strings and adjust the action accordingly. I frail and fingerpick(not Scruggs style)a '27 Mastertone archtop, and string it;
12,14,16,26,11.
Even without the resonator(which I take off from time to time)it's still the loudest banjo I have ever played. Of course, it still weighs a ton, but it's worth it for the volume and the tone.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: GUEST,Patrick Costello
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 03:23 PM

It's not a pipe dream, but the answer is going to be a combination of technique, setup and perception.

There isn't that much volume added when you bolt a resonator to a banjo, it just seems that way because it makes the sound so directional. If you current banjo has any kind of a tone ring you can boost the volume pretty simply without adding a resonator.

Old time banjo purists might want to stop reading right about here and avoid a heart attack.

Pick up a plain-jane top-frosted Remo head and tighten it until the feet of your bridge don't skin into the head anymore. Don't try to tap-tune it to a note, just get it tight.

Lower your action.
Pick up a lightweight bridge and a set of lite-gauge strings (I really like the GHS JD Crowe set). My personal favorite when it comes to bridges is either the Shubb or the Grover compensated. Moon bridges are pretty good, but the stair-step design of the Grover & Shubb bridges work a little bit better when it comes to keeping individual strings from bleeding into each other. The other advantage to the Grover bridge is that it's cheap. Something that's cheap and works well is always a plus in folk music.

The last thing I'd do is pick up a heavy adjustable tailpiece. Price or Kershner is the best made today for this. You can pick up a lighter licensed copy of the Price for a few dollars less and it'll do the same job. Whatever tailpiece you use, crank it down until it's just shy of the head. That will put tension of the lite strings so you wind up with the drive of heavier strings but keep the playability of lite gauge.

I've used this setup on quite a few banjos ranging from the Wildwood I play every day to the Gold Tone Cripple Creek banjos we use as loaner instruments in our workshops. The results are almost always the same in terms of volume.

-Patrick
http://patrickcostello.blogsome.com

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:09 PM

I strongly second what Patrick said about strings(J.D. Crowe GHS), tailpiece (Kirshner & cranked down)and bridge/s - although you might also consider one of the Emerson Power bridges.

Last fall I got an old Vega Tubaphone, added pretty much those elements, and now play it both for 3-finger and clawhammer. It's still not as loud as my resonator, but boy is it sweet sounding!

One other thing you might consider - Deering makes the John Hartford model with a "pop off" resonator and a bubinga wood tone ring. They're supposed to be pretty hot & great for interchaning the two picking styles. They're not cheap, however.

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:23 PM

My old S.S. Stewart Orchestra Model 2 with a 12-inch head is plenty loud. Unless I'm playing with a dance band I need to dampen it down by sticking a sponge in the back. There's no tone ring, just one heavy and well-built banjo.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:26 PM

I used medium GHS strings on my ODE open Back Long Neck. The top is as tight as I can make it. Almost no deflection from the strings.
It is quite loud but if you use the thing a lot the strings die quicker too. So its a trade off.

Don

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 04:14 PM

Merlin banjos are good loud banjos,being all aluminium with a fibreglass pot.Just rare as hens teeth,took me years to find 2.Also wildwood banjoes have some great clout too.Some years ago i had a Tony sullivan open back with a flathead bell bronze tone ring,but i thought that was too loud with just the banjo and my voice.

    Regards Tom

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: GLoux
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 07:46 PM

After thinking about this, I think the best advice I can give is to go listening to other banjo players' banjos and go shopping around. I know a number of "cross-over" banjo players who come from bluegrass backgrounds and have been smitten by old-time...and I've been curiously observing their "taste" in selecting open-back banjos, and it's been all over the map. BUT...none of them are Mudcatters...

I could name names, but they might not be local to you...where are you located?

-Greg

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: GUEST,Lonesome Gillette
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:11 PM

Hi all,
Thanks for the input!
I do always check out other players banjos, and keep a mental note, but that's so subjective. I would like to have a bunch of different banjos lined up and just go down the line playing each one. I understand setup and strings and all make a huge difference, but I would like to start with one that is inherently louder from the get go, then set it up well.
The Merlin banjo sounds ... interesting. I'd ike to try that.
I know stelling has made some openbacks, I imagine they are wicked loud, but I have never heard one.
Don't get me wrong, I love the tone of a nice banjo, but for some of my gig situations, loud is nice, and it allows me to play a bit less heavily than if I'm trying to be heard on a quiet instrument.
One weekly gig I do in Boston is a completly acoustic gig in a crowded Irish pub.

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:59 PM

Like me i would love to have a good selection of Banjos too,ahhh to be able to say which one today.From what i read on the banjo hangout its all about tone rings.I know some deering openbacks have the mastertone tone rings in them,the folk era and black diamond i think.Maybe go to the Banjo hangout and put a post on their forum,some of those guys really know banjos,im sure you will get good sound advice there.I have sold my standard neck merlin banjo now and now have a longneck type,took me 15yrs to find one.all the peg gears are inside the neck as it is cast aluminium.For me the ultimate banjo for others a monster but it suits my needs.The Merlin company only ran for a few years and in 1965 only sold 100 banjos.Im with you in crowded situations,that is why i used to have a mastertone tone ring.From what i hear on the Banjo hangout Deerings seem to have the loudest openbacks and i can imagine the stelling but i have never seen one openback.

   Good luck and many regards Tom

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:59 PM

If you can get to Boston that means you have a proxsimity to Stan and Music Emporium in Lexington . Also Tony at Fretted Workshop of Amherst. I played a Ball bearing 1925 MAstertone as an open back for some years but got pulled away by a very wonderful Mike Ramsey banjo with a wider and deeper pot made for Tony at Fretted Workshop..Its a very very loud banjo with quite a personal voice all its own. . Tons of great banjos out there. Good luck . Guy

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:05 PM

JEEEEEEEEEEES I love banjos

       Tom

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 12:08 AM

Deering is making the Vega banjo now - and it is a lovely LOUD open back. Check 'em out!

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: Frankham
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 12:41 PM

Hi Lonesome Gillette,

Loud is not as important as projection and they are not necessarilly one in the same. Some loud banjos are muddy. You want one that sounds good loud or soft but has the ability to cut through. Some banjos break up when played too loud.

Each banjo has it's own characteristics and there are no formulas. Some require a Kershner or Price tailpiece and other require a different kind. Setting up a banjo is an individual matter. The tailpiece, the bridge, the string guage are all factors but they are subject to the player and to the banjo itself.
You will find that on some banjos those tailpieces or bridges that are highly recommended just sound terrible. Then, something that you might discard will work like a charm. The best set-up is done by people who actually play the banjo. They know what feels right for a gig and that's not necessarilly what you find in the banjo set-up world. You're the one in the trenches.

Sometimes, if you have a very good mic, you can place it in the back of an open-back and it will sound good. No finger noise. Even a lesser sounding mic will work in some situations.

This wouldn't be The Black Rose would it? It's the famous Boston Irish pub and is a killer to work.

Frank

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: oombanjo
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:27 PM

One of the best I have come across, that cut through the other instruments, without thrashing it, is a Loe Gorden played by Diane Jones

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: GLoux
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 05:22 PM

Does Diane still play with nylon strings?

-Greg

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 05:53 PM

nope ... nylon hose, I think!

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: oombanjo
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:08 PM

The Loe Gordon was steel strung. and there is a site for him on the net.I am sure that Diane still has the nylon strung banjo. They are good for practice and no wear on the nails

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: GUEST,Steen Orsted
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:56 AM

The loudest openback I have played is my own. It is homemade. One piece of solid brass. Thickness 2mm. The top and the bottom are bent round, so it has no sharp edges. That was some of a job to do that. Diameter is out of standard, slightly less than 11 inches. But the sides are unusual deep. No less than 7 and a half cm. I think that´s a part of the explanation of its power. The banjo really is quite heavy too for an openback. The head is a fiber skyn for a floor tom tom drum. Cut out and mounted in a way that reminds of the way you mount a natural skin(head). That proces really makes you swear, but it can be done if you know how to. The backside is up, (and sanded for natural look), so that the fibers don´t wear out. I have always felt that ALL plasticheads included fibers are too thin for oldtime banjos, so I decided to try something thicker, and I can highly recommend it. It might be some of the explanation too. I think they ought to make them the way here mentioned. Tell Remo and the others. The head is quite tight, but the sound is thick pluncky and crisp at the same time and without unpleasant overtones. You can´t order one by me, but maybe someone would like to try to make one. Best wishes
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Tech: Loudest openback banjo?
From: oombanjo
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:09 PM

I'v an old 12" banjo that is made from folded bell brass at the top of the pot it is folded in such a way that it forms a V with the top of the V continued and closed the whole of the outside of the pot and the tension hoop is chased (not engraved)I have a calf skin head on it and it is very loud, it is also unidentified.?? The pot was found in Canada thats all I know about it.