BS: young offenders

Subject: BS: young offenders
From: El Dano
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:33 AM

this is my first posting, iv'e got an essay for homework to do for monday the subject is "how do you think young offenders should be punnished for their actions"? i'd appreciate anyones thoughts or suggestions of web links thanks.
Dan

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:45 AM

They should be shot! So should anyone who wears a bloody baseball cap and isn't an American!

"Children should be seen and not heard"

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:47 AM

uh Dano? The key word in that question is "you". If you have no opinion - then say so and why. If you have an opinon - then express it and give your reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Crystal
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:49 AM

It depends on the crime, previous offences, and weather the offender is under the influance of drink or drugs. Any punishment handed out depends on the judge who hears the case in court.

In the UK we have two descriptions for young offenders, the English NEET (not in education, employment or training) and the Scottish NED (non educated deliquint) although these terms have been taken up by the general population and are often used interchangably with the term "Chav", especially "ned" in Scotland. While some young people commit serious and violent crimes, much juvinile crime involves petty theft, vandalism, harassment, underage drinking or arson (usually involving rubbish or old cars illigally dumped by other people) The home office publish crime statistics home office crime statistics

hope this helps!

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:53 AM

Crystal - I find that fascinating as it implies that youth in school or other training don't commit crime. Which is patently untrue.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 10:03 AM

I know, it is one of those wierd bits of police jargon. We must then assume, I suppose, that those in Education, employment and training commit bigger crimes like forgery, identity theft, computer hacking and other duplicitious things.
"Thinking persons crimes" perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: GUEST,Shed with roof off and sides blown down
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 10:09 AM

Special punishments should exist for juveniles who hijack their paters mudcat cookie such as having to listen to radio 2 or Flamenco music

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: GUEST,Flamenco ted
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 10:36 AM

Make him eat chorizo without any HP brown sauce!!

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:43 AM

That wont work he loves the stuff

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: GUEST,Ebbie
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:04 PM

flamenco ted, I read your statement as "Chicken should be seen and not heard." Carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Oaklet
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:11 PM

I suggest that you book 'em El Dano and murder one.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:10 PM

In "The Education of the Camiroi" by R A Lafferty, the suggestion is made from a very advanced society that the worst behaved sixth graders be publicly hung in full view of their fellow students. They have very low misbehavior rates from then on.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Piers
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:41 PM

Some info here,
and here,
as well as here.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:49 PM

Kids who misbehave should be made to stand in front of their classmates and forced to sing folk songs that they HATE like ________ [fill in the blank]

****

Actually, this is a terrible idea since it will make these kids associate folk music with something bad-oh wait-they already associate folk music with something bad.

Well, it still is a bad idea.

****

El Dano, I agree with MMario's point that the key word in the assignment that you were given is "you". How do YOU think young offenders should be punnished for their actions"?

Inquiring minds want to know..


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:04 PM

"A Clockwork Orange." That's how.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:20 PM

In the US, persons under the age of 18 cannot be sentenced to terms extending beyond their 21st birthday ~ even murderers. So, a 17 year old killer is back out on the streets in four years. And his juvenile record generally cannot be presented at trial if and when he is caught commtting another crime as an adult. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: DougR
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:31 PM

Dan: Punished for doing what exactly?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:33 PM

Exceptions to the rule above are those cases in which the court tries a juvenile offender as an adult, because the crime the juvenile committed was of a particularly heinous nature.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:07 PM

Make them take baths and wear trousers that don't fall down. And while you're at it, see if you can get 'em to go easy on the piercings and tatoos. And maybe convince them that every third word that comes out of their mouths shouldn't be "fuck". Turning their rap-blasting car stereos down to a decibel level slightly lower than that of an F-16 at takeoff would be appreciated as well.

Oh! You meant "offenders" as in "criminal offense"! Not just "stuff kids do that pisses off geezers"! Nevermind.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:49 PM

After the little fuckers are taught to wear their hats properly, they should be trounced until they find out that wearing hats in people's houses is a no-no. Then give them the lash.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:54 PM

Truthfully, I think young offenders should make complete restitution--repair the damage, replace the property, etc.

For capital crimes, treat them as one would an adult.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 01:58 AM

I've always wondered why we put a perfectly useful section of humanity in gaol when they could quite easily be put to a good and sensible use, repairing what they destroy. Maybe in the process they could learn a trade and thus actually come out a better qualified person than they went in.

For traffic/drunkeness offences, give them porter duties in a city hospital on weekend and holiday nights so they can see first hand the results of their reckless behaviour.

By the way Dano... 10/10 for initiative in getting a load of stressed out geezers to write your essay, but 2/10 for personal input.

LTS - neither stressed out nor a 'geezer' in the modern sense. Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 03:19 AM

Thoroughly agree Liz. I also think it is possible that a lot of people would change their minds about casual violence, littering and damage in they had to help to clean up the mess.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Piers
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 03:57 AM

El Dano, take no heed of these reactionary 'grown ups'. They've built a world of inequality, oppression and boredom, and they whinge when people react against it (though that reaction is very often misguided).

Piers

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 01:51 PM

Unfortunately, punishment doesn't work. If you send them to a detention center, they associate with other youth who have committed more serious crimes. Kids learn more from their peers than they do from adults. When they are released, they have a whole new bag of tricks to perform for a society that has already rejected them.

I'm more interested in prevention. If a kid is struggling at home or at school, it is important to provide the education, skills and/or training needed to become a productive member of society. As a society, we seem to be more interested in 'putting out the fires' than providing support to those who will eventually end up in the criminal justice system without it.

In other words, you either pay now or you pay later. Funding is crucial! It seems that funding war is more important than providing the funding necessary to reduce criminal behaviour in our youth.

The answer is to fund programs that help youth realize their potential.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: heric
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 02:03 PM

>>After the little fuckers are taught to wear their hats properly, they should be trounced until they find out that wearing hats in people's houses is a no-no. Then give them the lash.<<

While this was a darned good chuckle (as was Book'm, Dano), I think the serious approach, suitable for the class assignment, is more as dianavan says. Prevention and education.

Send them to Australia until they are 21, and call it a cultural exchange program.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 02:09 PM

Glad you took that as humour. It's the way I meant it.

As a youth, I came close to the House of D on a few occasions. It was kindness from a few individuals that changed me enough to keep me out. Beatings, the strap, etc., never did work on me--nor did threats.

In later life I taught for one year in a maximum security institution. Made me glad I never ended up in one as a guest. But for the kindnesses I received while young, likely I would have.

People who have said that prevention and education are a must: you got my vote.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 02:13 PM

Truthfully, I think young offenders should make complete restitution--repair the damage, replace the property, etc.

I do to...

...but I double Guar-an-damn-tee you that as soon as the first legislator DARES to try to suggest it -- or, dare I wish, the first law is passed to that effect...

....there will be an ARMY of lawyers (probably from the ACLU *wink*) suing on the basis that we abolished slavery 150 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 02:20 PM

John, I would love to take issue with your post, but that has already happened in Canada. Arguments went something like

1) but if we allow them to do that then they will be taking work away from honest folk

2) who will be responsible for their insurance if they have an accident?

Years ago a judge in Hinton told a kid who'd thrown eggs at someone's business that he would go and scrub every bit of detrius OFF the window and that his mom and dad would go with him to ensure the job was done properly. Today, the judge's decision would likely be overturned on appeal. Bloody sad is what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 02:43 PM

Years ago some teenage boys rolled a huge wire spool down a steep hill into my dad's pond. Daddy caught them and told them to put it back where it should be, on top of the hill. They said OK (afterall, Daddy knew their families and had given permission for them to fish). But first they needed to go get a tractor. Daddy then told them, "You got it in the pond without a tractor, put it back where it belongs again without a tractor."

Dan, in a simpler time and place we could get by with such as that. Now that's almost unheard of.

Ideally a young offender's parents would take care of any guidance/punishment needed. Sadly, that's not the case these days. Even when parents try to assert discipline there seen to be too many obstacles preventing it. Just last week a young fella I was tutoring was more concerned with his cellphone than our discussions. His father was fighting an uphill battle keeping him in class.

I don't mean to not answer your question, but I feel you're asking the wrong question. Problems of punishing juvenile offenders are really larger problems of society.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 03:45 PM

Mary - ain't that the truth! These days they'd be suing your dad for allowing themselves to get hurt by the nasty heavy spool. Seems the only person not protected by any rights is the victim.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 03:48 PM

El Dano - The right answer is not punishment but natural consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 04:51 PM

Poppagator: "In the US, persons under the age of 18 cannot be sentenced to terms extending beyond their 21st birthday ~ even murderers. So, a 17 year old killer is back out on the streets in four years. And his juvenile record generally cannot be presented at trial if and when he is caught commtting another crime as an adult. Go figure. "

Guest: "Exceptions to the rule above are those cases in which the court tries a juvenile offender as an adult, because the crime the juvenile committed was of a particularly heinous nature. "

John Hardly: "...but I double Guar-an-damn-tee you that as soon as the first legislator DARES to try to suggest it -- or, dare I wish, the first law is passed to that effect.......there will be an ARMY of lawyers (probably from the ACLU *wink*) suing on the basis that we abolished slavery 150 years ago. "

brucie: a judge in Hinton told a kid who'd thrown eggs at someone's business that he would go and scrub every bit of detrius OFF the window and that his mom and dad would go with him to ensure the job was done properly. Today, the judge's decision would likely be overturned on appeal. Bloody sad is what it is. "

Boy. Do you guys live in a different world - not to say, country - than I do. In the US where I live MANY kids have to do restitution. MANY kids have to clean up and repair damage they have caused. SOME kids as young as 13 have been tried as adults. (A shame, that. imo)

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 10:59 PM

We have cases where damage is done to the property of an individual. and the person who did the damage gets x hours of community service. Nice for the community--but not so good for the individual (victim).

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 12:25 AM

One Hallowe'en a few years ago a friend of mine's house got egged. She called the cops- one of the kids was a neighborhood boy and he quickly folded and finked. A cop stood there the next day while they used long handled brushes and soap buckets. Kind of made a game out of it. This is in Juneau. It may be different in other places.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Piers
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 06:16 AM

El Dano, ignore all these old codgers whinging about the 'youth of today'. For them the process of a youth breaking the law is reducible to only one thing: it is the youth that is in the wrong. Because they have not learnt to question the leaders of their communities, the media, priests and politicians their morality has been shaped by these people. Therefore 'the law' to them is concurrent with what is 'right', despite the fact that there only input into the law making process is periodically choosing which politicians gets to write the law. (The politicians have no choice to write the law on behalf of their funders (the rich) but that is another story.) They suggest someone, brought up amongst bad housing, poor services, with only the prospect of unfufilling jobs ahead of them should be punished for 'anti-social' behaviour. Does this make sense?

Being a teenager is a time when you really grow up and realise that the world isn't your oyster, it's someone else's, if you want a piece you've got to follow their orders. It is the age that it becomes apparent that all your parents', teachers' and career advisors' - the very people you respected - talk about the freedom of being an adult, being able to make your own choices, blah, blah, blah, is complete guff.

IMHO, I suggest that we need to look at the anti-social forces of inequality, hierachy and oppression that exist within 'advanced society' as much as anywhere in the world rather than bleating about the best way to make youths conform to the rules, that we have accepted.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 10:00 AM

Oh Piers... just wait until you are the victim of someone expressing their rights to steal your belongings and money, or their right to kick you in the head when they want to, or their right to rape your girlfriend/sister/mother/grandmother..... You will find your attitude changes fairly radically.

Incidentally, the specific 'young offenders' was chosen by the originator of the thread, not by the 'whingeing old codgers' who have given their opinions.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Piers
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 10:18 AM

Of course I don't want to have my head kicked in, but locking people up, natural justice or any of the other reactionary suggestions mentioned above don't work. Because you are treating the symptoms and not the cause. People steal stuff because they haven't got enough of what they want, perhaps they are just greedy, but you don't see many rich people mugging old ladies do you?

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 10:38 AM

" but you don't see many rich people mugging old ladies do you? "

You seen the news about Social Security? Iraq?

Give it a look. They are doing a good job of it.

Signed,

'whingeing old codger'

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Charmion
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 12:00 PM

Piers wrote: "People steal stuff because they haven't got enough of what they want ..."

And society should accommodate those who do not have all the fast cars, intoxicating substances and electronic devices they could possibly want?

If there's one thing we learned during the 20th century, it's that the well of want is bottomless. The richest cities of the world's richest countries have citizens who consider themselves in dire need although they can get housing, safe drinking water, clothing, food, medicine and education free of charge, courtesy of their tax-paying neighbours. In fact, the most obvious outward signs of poverty in Ottawa, where I live, are obesity and heavy tobacco consumption!

Some years ago, I worked for a criminal lawyer with a large Legal Aid practice. Six months in his office showed me who Ottawa's thieves are: people overcome by sheer covetousness; individuals so lacking in marketable skills that they cannot find work to pay for what they need; and a vanishingly small minority who are bug-house crazy. Judicial punishment doesn't work with any of these groups. The covetous feel entitled to whatever they take, the unskilled need education and training, and the crazy -- well, whatever they need, our society is not equipped to provide it.

Your average youthful thief in urban Ontario is covetous. A few are in genuine need, but their requirements usually lie in areas unrelated to what they steal.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 12:43 PM

Piers, you're ignoring the founding question of this thread.

The question is not what posture society should take toward offenses by youth. It was specifically, "How do you think young offenders should be punished for their actions?"

The question assumes that prevention, which you rightly advocate, has failed, and an offense has occcurred.

Your recommendation is a wholesale action toward youth who might commit an offense. The question is a retail question about individuals who have offended.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 02:45 PM

Sorry to get personal here, but yes, 'rich', educated people *do* steal, *do* rape and *do* kick people's heads in. Been there, had that done to me, got the Xrays.....

Both offenders were considered 'well off', well educated and middle/upper class. One got off and the other got a fine, which amounted to less than a week's wages for him and was a fraction of what he'd taken from me. Neither of them did what they did to me because I had something they needed or wanted other than a few extra pounds. They did it for control and power over a weaker human being.

Yet, even after what happened to me, I still can't understand why society treats offenders the way they do.

The drunken driver who killed my brother should have been taken to the hospital on a Friday night to see the results of his sort of behaviour. Instead, he got a fine, kept his license and killed another teenager several years later in the same sort of circumstances. If he'd seen what happens when a drunken driver in several tonnes of speeding metal hits a human being, maybe he would have acted differently the second time.

The question was "how do you think young offenders should be punnished for their actions"? I stand by my first posting. Education after the fact can have far more impact than education before the offence is committed.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Grab
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 08:08 AM

Well past essay due date now! :-)

Dan, a hint. There is no right answer to that kind of question. Your answer could be "hang them", "jail them", "re-educate them" or "give them a big bunch of flowers as a reward" and the teacher will not give you any credit. What you get credit for is for stating *your* opinion and backing it up with reasoned argument (and supplying relevant facts if you have them to hand, which gets you credit for doing research).

Asking Mudcat is *not* research, however. So you'll get no credit at all for asking here.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 12:05 PM

Shoot them

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: DougR
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 02:47 PM

brucie: "Treat them as though they are an adult." Do you really mean that brucie? For capital crimes, capital punishment?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Piers
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 03:22 PM

You can hide behind the "but the question was . . . " and frankly you will be discussing this question for years to come whilst the rape, mugging and other violence goes on. I don't want a be a victim of these things and your inability/reluctance to understand and deal with the causes of anti-social behaviour make me a target.

Thanks very much

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 04:27 PM

My own or anyone else's ability or not to understand why people do such antisocial things is going to make not a single atom of difference, nor will it make anyone a target. "You" always were a target along with everyone else who has something that another person believes they need. Got have a mobile phone? Someone else wants it because it's a nicer model than theirs. Got a computer? Someone wants to take it and sell it to feed a crack habit.

I don't think I've hidden or am hiding behind anything. I was probably questioning authority before several posters here were born and I've no intention of stopping now. In fact, with a UK General Election coming up, now is the time to question it more closely and ask the sort of questions most people avoid.

Yes, this question will be discussed, and yes, the violence will continue. The point I was trying to make was it isn't just uneducated youths who commit crimes, so educating them before the fact probably won't make a great deal of difference to the outcome. I have been a victim of three violent crimes, all committed by well educated and well off people. One of them had a maths degree from Cambridge University, a respectable, well paid job in education and what I would consider a priviledged upbringing. They all knew what they were doing was wrong and yet they did it anyway.
Sort of blows the 'anti-social forces of inequality, hierachy and oppression' argument out of the water.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Piers
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 05:45 PM

Hi Liz,

'"You" always were a target along with everyone else who has something that another person believes they need. Got have a mobile phone? Someone else wants it because it's a nicer model than theirs. Got a computer? Someone wants to take it and sell it to feed a crack habit.'

Exactly, I agree entirely, the violence is a product of society where needs are not met, as well as tenuous needs being invented by the massive advertising industry. These things affect those within the bottom of the pile as much a the bottom.

Just because you've got a degree and a well paid job doesn't necessarily mean you're happy with your lot, you're still part of the hierachical society with all the oppression of bosses, the competitive workplace and the drudgery of employment. The pressure to climb the status scale (measured in the price of your car, mobile phone, widescreen TV, DVD player, clothes etc) is immense. These are the factors that contribute to producing the kind of scum that perpetrates violent acts against folkies.

It is this system of competition instead of co-operation, bosses and sub-ordinates instead of equals and the relentless marketing machine that passes as art, information and entertainment that we need to end to get some security back. We have the potential to produce enough goods and services to satisfy everyone's basic needs, and not so basic needs too, and organise it in a way that work is a satisfying experience. In that kind of society I don't think anyone would feel the frustrations that give rise to the act of drinking ten pints of beer and giving someone a hiding.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 11:13 PM

Just heard a report that kids, who at age four, watch more than X amount of hours of television have a far greater chance of becoming a bully than kids who are actively involved with their family. Sorry I can't remember the actual number of hours but I'm not at all surprized by this finding. I think many kids today are very stressed, bored and alienated. Basically, we are raising a generation of thrill seekers.

Earlier, I said the right answer was 'natural consequences' because that is what the textbooks say. Natural consequences are an emphasis on cause and effect. Teaching cause and effect is not a bad idea. Personal responsibility should also be emphasized. But what if they do it anyway...

Withold privileges. Of course then you have to teach them difference between a privilege and a 'right'. Amazing how many kids don't know the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 02:39 PM

One last comment and I'm done with this...

"The pressure to climb the status scale (measured in the price of your car, mobile phone, widescreen TV, DVD player, clothes etc) is immense. These are the factors that contribute to producing the kind of scum that perpetrates violent acts against folkies."

From my personal experience = complete and utter bollocks. He did it because he wanted me to be totally submissive to him. In that time and place, he WAS the top of the social scale. He blacked my eye because I questioned an action of his. He kicked me in the stomach because I questioned a decision he made for the both of us without discussion. He fractured my skull because I dared open my own bank account so he didn't get all my wages.

If you met him in the street, the last word you would use to describe him would be 'scum'.

I daresay there are those who steal and hurt because they want to fill a need that has been manufactured in them by society. They are not all youths and they are not all crack addicts. There has always been a society of haves and have nots. There always will be. We will never have an equal society until we hold all things in common. But that will never happen because we are human beings, and the single, strongest urge from primeaval times to the present day, is to get the best for yourself so that you can live and spread your genes. Man will never live in communion with man, simply because he is man.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 04:29 PM

Not much hope then

Subject: RE: BS: young offenders
From: Peace
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 07:07 PM

brucie: "Treat them as though they are an adult." Do you really mean that brucie? For capital crimes, capital punishment?

DougR

It's all hypothetical, Doug. However, I don't believe in capital punishment as a rule.