BS: British Army reward murderer.

Subject: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 01:03 PM

I bet you didn't think it could happen again folks, but it has. Yes the British Army are rewarding a soldier who shot dead an Iraqi civilan walking along a quiet road, with a couple of stripes for his arm.Trooper Williams watched an Iraqi civilan walking along a quiet road pushing his handcart with only a bit of food for his family on board , and a thought came to his mind, I bet that bastard is smuggling a couple of anti aircraft weapons under those spuds ! BANG the righ side of the poor Iraqis head was blowen out by a bullet from Trooper Williams SA80. Nothing was found on the cart besides food for his family. To keep the matter all above board the army took him to court. In the court Trooper Williams changed his story three times, he told of the handcart, then he changed it to his fear that the Iraqi might, just might try a steal a gun from his comrade, then back to the handcart story. The court let him off. General Sir Anthony Walker (a failed veteran of Northern Ireland)said after the courtcase was over, This young man will go far, he is the type of young soldier we need in the British Army(he got that right)we will push Trooper Williams on, he has all the credentials for an NCO. He will sit his first exam in two weeks in Germany. When you look at the number of soldiers that murdered innocent civilans in the North of Ireland over the years it's surprising to think that only 75% of them either got a medal for bravery or a step up the ranks. Well a short message to the family of the poor Iraqi if they are mudcatters, Don't allow this injustice get you down, they failed in my country and they will fail in yours.British Army orders for body bags continue at a steady rate.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:39 PM

And please could you tell me where you managed to find your information? Not in the press I hope, as misleading as they can be.
Please tell me your source and give a reference for it. Thanks very much and Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 06:24 PM

Is this the same Trooper Williams who was involved in the death of an Iraqi pushing a cart full of machine gun ammunition? "Scotsman" story here, and it sounds a bit different.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 06:24 PM

"he has all the credentials for an NCO."
I was a JNCO for 3 years & a SNCO for 12, I find your statement sweeping & insulting as many 1000s more will, but I have need or desire to bother to say any more.
Regards Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 07:02 PM

Here's the Guardian version - Trooper's murder charge is dropped

I note it say the cart actually did contain "heavy machine gun ammunition." Of course that might be as fictitious as the stuff "found" on victims of Bloody Sunday. The truth is, the truth is very unclear.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 08:58 PM

yes, maybe you're right, but weren't the murderers in the Birmingham bombing and all the other atrocities promoted inside the IRA?
Two wrongs make a wrong and that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 09:18 PM

"When you look at the number of soldiers that murdered innocent civilans in the North of Ireland over the years it's surprising to think that only 75% of them either got a medal for bravery or a step up the ranks."

This looks like bullshit to me.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 10:45 PM

The man was judged and is not guilty, enough said. The Curator needs to vent and spew his shite on this forum, thats a pity. On behalf of the soldier who was accused. The Curator Fuck off and have a nice day.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 04:06 AM

Now now Dave nice to see you can't take it, are you an old Squaddie ?? a failed British serviceman who left my green and pleasant land without the friends you arrived with ?? I will have a nice day now that I have informed the world of what the British Army get up to. And Guest, only one of the unit invovled in active service operations in the west midlands moved up a rank, this was due to the death (by natural causes) of his O.C. (officer in command)not as in the British army (commanding officer.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 04:40 AM

Curator ? anti English wanker more like.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 04:46 AM

Now now eric, who's a naughty boy using such language.You must be English.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,RÚN
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 05:30 AM

I think that some of these anti curator, know alls are still or have been the usual scum of the earth that bullied and shot fellow irishmen while serving their CUNT-RY as in most of the cases here like bloody sunday they got commendations from non other than the queen herself and in the case of Peter Mc Bride they were convicted of murder then released back in to the British army and no doubt promoted so they can kill again in the name of their queen and CUNT-RY and get off with it no matter which country they invade.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 05:41 AM

The Curator's powerful, well-documented argument and GUEST,RUN's (no offence meant by mistyping, can't do squiggle) eloquence have won me over.

I too want to serve truth, just as they are. Where do I sign up?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:00 AM

Curator, My job was, and is, saving lives even scum like you that are at war with England. I have nothing against the Irish, and yes I lost friends in Ireland catholic and protestant ones... republicans and loyalists...

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:10 AM

Army officers giving evidence on behalf of their men after a fatal shooting of a civilian, will always follow the same pattern,"he is a good soldier, he was only fulfilling his duty in trying circumstances, he will be welcome back in my unit",.

We have had the same old Brit Army guff in the north of Ireland for years. In Iraq when the first hint of torture concerning the Brit Army was raised, we had the usual support of the Army from various catters,
"our lads do not murder or torture", was the cry, all of which has since been proved wrong, remember if it wasn`t for the decent lady in the photoshop in England, who brought the grisly evidence to the police, the culprits would have continued as before.

Blindly defending the indefensible is not very clever.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:43 AM

Dear Dave
Your country never admitted they were at war in the North of Ireland.
Although when you look at the following,Ulster Special Constabulary (B Specials) disbanded in 1970. Unionist Government disbanded 1972.Ulster Defence Regiment disbanded 1992.Disbandment of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. All our volunteers released from British jails. No further British Government prop up cash for the unionist Belfast shipyard(closed last year)I think I know who's flag has the battle honours.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 07:01 AM

You tell him, Curator...
Where do I sign?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 07:01 AM

Nobody wins in a civil war Curator, all the British did was buffer the two sides apart till they got tired of seeing their children learn to hate and kill each other, and us... None of my friends ever murdered anyone...

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 07:22 AM

Blindly defending the indefensible is not very clever.

Well, that's true enough, whoever does it. There's a lot to be said for focussing our attention on the misdeeds of the people on the side we are inclined to favour in a conflict, more especially in the aftermath.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 07:33 AM

El Greko, see you in the Square in Crossmaglen on Sunday, bring a pen.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 07:51 AM

Curator, I think it is reasonable to assume that many of the IRA activists who murdered people were rewarded witin the organisation.
You seem to me to be more in favour of resuming the armed struggle that trying to find common ground with your "enemies". What is your reaction to Gerry Adams' latest appeal to the IRA to disband?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 08:29 AM

Look for me there at 12 noon, Curator.
You'll recognise me easily; I'll be wearing my special nail-lined vest. Might as well start as I mean to go on, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 08:42 AM

Nice to hear from you again paranoid Android, there was very little in the line of reward for volunteers within the movement. When joining they were told it could be death or a long prison term on offer. No I am not in favour of a resumption, I am in full agreement with the leadership of the movement.Regarding Gerard's statement to the leadership, again I agree with him. I think there will be a statement before the end of the month, and it will announce that the war is over.As for finding common ground with those who hold a differing viewpoint, I doubt the D.U.P./Third Force will welcome Catholic backsides on seats of government. As to my enemies, all I wish for is England to leave Ireland, afterall it is our land, they stole it 800 years ago by sword and by bayonet.They have left (or been chased) out of many other world countries they raped, so why remain here ?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 08:46 AM

Yes Curator I'm English and proud of it I'm also ex British Army and ptoud of that too.

I never served in Northern Ireland though, I was invalided out before it started again.

From what I can gather , you just visit this forum to cause trouble not make peace, to make peace you need to talk to your enemies not just start fights and shout at them.

I'm willing to accept that the British Army have done some bad things, why do you seem to think that IRA/Sinn Fein are always innocent of everything ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 08:49 AM

Please El Greko don't wear the vest,the war is about to end, don't you listen ? Tell the wife you will be late home because we'll get a few pints. Why not put your nail clippings down the toilet like the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 08:58 AM

Does anyone else think I only visit this forum to start fights or cause trouble ? Then again I am a paddy to eric.I do accept military blunders occurred for P.I.R.A. active service units, but the leadership admitted it and took the flack.VNever once did they say they were fine young men, then again this is a British military line.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 09:10 AM

Yes Curator I do.

Please don't get me wrong. Although I am English, I do not believe every action carried out by British forces has been right (any more than I do actions of the IRA or of Loyalist groups), I am aware of our ability to whitewash things, I am angry about Iraq, my wish for Northern Ireland is peace for all..

I don't even see the point of you bringing NI into this in the way you did if your motivation is not to cause trouble.

(I'm probably feeding a troll here)

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 09:32 AM

OK, Curator, pints at noon it is, and the first round's on me for your sense of humour.

Like eric the red, I scanned your previous postings and came to a similar conclusion with him (troublemaker); and the way this thread started reinforced that opinion. But your last couple of postings made me take a step back and rethink.

I can accept that you feel strongly about rights and wrongs; I can also accept that our views may not coincide. But blanket unquestioning condemnation is just as bad as blindly defending the indefensible (little dig at ard mhacha). Not all soldiers behaved honourably in Ireland. Or anywhere else. Ever. It is part of the ugliness of war, that releases the beast from man. (By the way, I use the term "soldiers" the way you would mean it, to cover all sides in the conflict).

But the majority act within their army's code of honour (which by the way, may differ between armies, I can accept that too).

But even if only one ever behaved honourably, then blanket condemnation is wrong, and appears bigoted. The story behind Harvey Andrews' "The Soldier", for example, is documented. Don't heap shit on the honourable self-sacrifice of the lad, otherwise the rest of your argument loses strength.

I am glad the war looks like ending. And I am even more glad you feel the same. Let's focus on the peace now:

Mine's a Guinness.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Jacqued
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 09:40 AM

Curator,

The Briish Army did not fail in Northern Ireland, the politicians did.

The truth is important.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:43 PM

Don`t ask that question of 99% of nationalists, the Brit Army = football thugs in uniform, national front/ combat 18 hoods.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 02:22 PM

No I don't come to this site to cause trouble, nor do I lie.What I do is bring the facts which many wouldn't get the opportunity to hear on their television/radio news.It's always been the same, if an Irishman speaks out against Britian he's a trouble maker. At least on this site you don't loose teeth, as I did in 1975 courtesy of a British army baton when they arrived at my home for a search at 5.35am. All I asked was their reason for being there. And before you all start, no nothing was found in my home and they left after 40 minutes. As to my three front teeth, according to the army it never happened.And I don't mind the verbal insults cast at me here, says more about them than it does about me.And Jacqued, when a government think the talking has failed they send the army in, so both failed. A general service medal with a bar was all they left with.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 03:18 PM

I'll be wearing my special nail-lined vest.

That'd be the one with the nails pointing inwards wouldn't it, El Greko?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 04:45 PM

Ah, Kevin, you saw me for the masochist that I am! (Just a little tighter now, dear...)

Curator,
there's no way I can excuse what happened to you in '75, and wouldn't want to anyway. You came up against some nasty b*****ds there, that's certain (the one who did it, and the ones who hushed it up). But I hope you would agree with me that the whole regiment did not consist entirely of their kind.

Only a few years before that, back home, the same and worse happened, inflicted by Greek soldiers and policement against Greek citizens; I am referring to the '67-'74 CIA-sponsored "Colonels' Junta". It took a regime change for some of the truth to come out, and many of the "details" like broken teeth and arms and legs and torn-out nails were not really admitted till many years later. And that was "brother against brother", no religious differences involved.

Yet, in the middle of that conflict, we all recognise the courage of those soldiers who refused to mistreat their fellow citizens (one notable case is of the tank gunner refusing the order to fire against the crowd at the '73 Athens Polytechnic sit-in, even though his captain put a revolver to his head). We knew all along that the majority were decent, and would disobey orders if they could.

I only mentioned that to show that b******s have no nationality - you find them everywhere. But they are not the majority.

Still, I cannot blame you for having your view coloured by your personal experiences. But I hope your logic can fight through that, pin blame where it deserves to be pinned, and not blanket cover a whole nation.

Today, 9th April, several children were born in Ireland, and in Britain, and in Greece, and in Iraq, and in N.Korea, and in the USA. They were born blameless and without preconceptions and prejudices. We owe it to them to shield them from such.

As best we can.
For their sake.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 05:17 PM

Nice one El Greko, so you have ingrowing toe nails,can be painful.A great reply with a lot of truth in it. Have been to your country and understand the feelings which you express.Greek soldiers against Greek people, try to imagine the Turks coming in against the Greek people for over 30 years.I never met a British soldier who looked upon an Irishman other than something he stepped in. Even as a medic who treated them I found they had a attitude towards me.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: puck
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 05:32 PM

What a nasty hateful snide little thread this has turned out to be. I thought Mudcat was about music and the love of it. I am disappointed with Curator and others. Learn to live and love others not harbour hatred and loathing. NOW PISS OFF BACK TO IRELAND and learn from your many many other countrymen and women how to be a warm humourous and thoroughly humane human being. Puck

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 05:41 PM

The little fact is that when one looks at the articles in the Scotsman and the Guardian (hardly a newspaper uncritical of the British army) the little story the Curator told to begin this thread appears as what it is - a hysterical lie, characteristic of both nationalists and loyalists in the Northern Ireland mess. When will this kind of Irishman grow up?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:23 PM

Ooh-Aah2,
I am afraid that the answer to your last question may be "when his broken teeth grow back". We are all what our past makes us - unless we have enough strength to fight our prejudices. Which (prejudices) we all have, me included. It's unfortunate, but wounds are not healed with a simple "sorry" - even when that is forthcoming. It takes time, and plenty of positive example.

Puck,
your own words "Learn to live and love others not harbour hatred and loathing. NOW PISS OFF BACK TO IRELAND is not only self-contradicting, it also does not provide the positive example that is needed. By the way, this thread is in the BS section, so by definition non-music. Calm down, a discussion IS being had.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:49 PM

Dearest Puck I am at home in Ireland, the land your countrymen could not take and tame. As to the thread, truth hurts doesn't it. Great name PUCK (in Irish it means THE GOAT) need I say more about this one folks ? well he did advise humour.As to ooh Aah2 The story is not a lie, I saw it on the television news, also your favourite rag THE SUN newspaper covered the story in full yesterday (Friday) according to a phone call I got tonight.As to me growing up, I am well grown up and wise to you my friend. Never get involved in this kind of chat without the facts. Nite nite from Eire.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 07:00 PM

Some say the devil is dead
The devil is dead
The devil is dead
Some say the devil is dead and buried in Killarney.
More say he rose again
More say he rose again
More say he rose again and joined the British Army.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,loving it
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 07:20 PM

puck and ooh aah, have you both a bad case of Irish envy? Do you feel inferior when in the presence of the Irish?

Sure we're wittier, intellectually on a different plane, possessed of rugged dark looks that improve with age, an accent that can melt ice, generous to a fault, not to mention being the darlings of the female population for our easy charm and sensitivity.

But never mind lads, we can't all win eh?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:22 AM

Sorry to hear about your "visit" from the army. It gives us some insight into the cause for your bitterness. I can't justify their actions but it is probable that some of those soldiers had friends who has been killed by the IRA and they were bitter as well. The same applies to the RUC. When a police force is operating in the knowledge that each member is a "Legitimate target" for a section of the community it is impossible for them to exercise "normal" policing within that community. Hopefully we have seen the end of tit-for-tat atrocities and the fact that no policeman or soldier has been shot for several years bears out that hope. I've just heard on the radio of an incident in Belfast this morning where a policeman discharged one shot. While you might wish to view this as as another example of "armed repression" I would view it (purely on the basis of the news report) as a neccessary action and take consolation in the fact that in a similar situation 20 years ago that policeman would have found it necessary to shoot to kill in order to preserve his own life. As for Mr. Paisley, I always viewed him as the IRA's best recruiting officer but even he must by now have come to the realisation that co-operation is the only way forward. We can only hope for a PEACEFUL re-unification of Ireland sooner rather than later.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:32 AM

I can't justify their actions but it is probable that some of those soldiers had friends who has been killed by the IRA and they were bitter as well.

pa that's mathematically probably not very close to the truth. But even if it were the case, the soldiers were being paid well to do a professional job out there. The fact that they had been recruited during a feverish anti-Irish period of UK history, resulted in hired uniformed yobs parading the streets of someone elses city. Would they have been welcome in your city?

And the visit that took away the teeth, well that's just one of many similar incidents that I could also relate. It happened daily.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 03:34 AM

Dear Lovin' It - if one is born English one has won first prize in the lottery of life. The Irish? Who are they? A bunch of resentful little dwarves who sing the same depressing songs through their nose ad nauseum. It's quite lucky for you we played with your soggy little island for a time to give you something to base your culture on - a chip on the shoulder's better than nothing I guess...




For any Irishmen reading this IT IS TONGUE IN CHEEK. Let peace and love rule.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 05:02 AM

Yes Ooh Aah, the English are loved in every country in the world, ask anyone. They depend on nobody (besides the Americans to win them two world wars).As to my green and pleasant land enough of your fellow countrymen left it in a horizontal position. Your dead right over here we view being English is like a lottery win, you always depend on somebody playing with your balls, and in Ireland your number is well and truly up !

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 06:40 AM

Curator, I have every sympathy with you. Honestly. The plight of the Irish was, and still often is, a terrible thing and down purely to the past and recent wrongs committed by the English government. I do not wish to detract from this one iota. But (did you know there was one of them coming;-) ) I must take exception to the following from yourself.

What I do is bring the facts which many wouldn't get the opportunity to hear on their television/radio news.
and earlier
Nothing was found on the cart besides food for his family.

However two independant sources, both the Guardian and the Scotsman, neither known for their pro-establishment views give us the opposing view. Trooper Williams was on patrol with other soldiers when they discovered six Iraqis moving a cart containing heavy machine gun ammunition. Three of the men were detained. A fourth, Mr Said, ran off, pursued by Trooper Williams and Corporal Jeffrey Blair. When caught, Mr Said refused to be handcuffed and, amid attempts to restrain him, was shot by the trooper who, said Mr Horwell, believed he was trying to get hold of Cpl Blair's weapon.

I do not know whether you are right or whether the press is. I dislike the press intensely and by no means believe all I read but in the absense of any other corroborated view who am I meant to believe? I am happy to belive you. I am as against the Iraq war as anyone. I well remember your well reasoned and persuasive arguments about the Northern Bank raid and your adamant requirement of proof of guilt. Can you provide proof of your statement that the cart contained nothing but food was true and therefore prove that trooper Williams was guilty?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:07 AM

Dave
Report from Sun newspaper Friday April 8th 2005. KEVIN SHOT DEAD A MAN SUSPECTED OF SMUGGLING ANTI AIRCRAFT SHELLS IN A HANDCART. IT WAS ALLEGED IN COURT THE IRAQI HAD ARMS. Report from Irish Television News RTE Thursday April 7th 2005. A BRITISH SOLDIER WHO SHOT DEAD AN IRAQI WHO HE THOUGHT HAD ARMS UNDER FOOD SUPPLIES WALKED FREE FROM COURT TODAY. NO REPORT OF ANY ARMS OR AMMUNITION FOUND AT THE SCENE WAS PRESENTED. Dave please note the words SUSPECTED, ALLEGED and NO REPORT OF ANY ARMS OR AMMUNITION FOUND AT THE SCENE. The court found him not guilty. Did this Iraqi pose a threat ? did he aim a gun ? did he actually reach out and handle Cpl Blair's SA80 ? What was in his hands when he was shot ? In neither report which I list is there any report of other British soldiers present other than the one who Tropper Williams felt would loose his weapon.The bottom line is the Iraqi could of been arrested and the cart searched, but no he was shot dead long before the handcart was searched. Your listed reports state ammo was found. The reports I list did not state this.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:11 AM

Dave that account doesn't look too promising either? Two armed soldiers had admittedly captured an unarmed civilian, and in the melee ( sure there's meant to be a stroke somewhere near that word),the unarmed civilian was shot dead.

The reason, When caught, Mr Said refused to be handcuffed and, amid attempts to restrain him, was shot by the trooper who, said Mr Horwell, believed he was trying to get hold of Cpl Blair's weapon.

He hadn't even got hold of the weapon? It was merely believed he was trying to? The British Army are either severely lacking in restraint skills or it's another case of, 'Lie through your teeth lads, it's always worked in the past.'

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:13 AM

Dave sorry for the double whammy there, just cross posted with the curator.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:50 AM

No problems with the double post Curator and Guest. I still do have problems however with posting unsubstantiated 'facts' that turn out not to be! Remember What I do is bring the facts which many wouldn't get the opportunity to hear on their television/radio news.

Again I am not saying it was a good thing that this soldier did, nor am I saying that Mr Said (the victim) was completely blameless. The simple truth of the matter is that we have a number of newspapers and other sources saying that the cart did contain ammunition and we have at least one saying it did not. I feel that in this case the right decision has been made based on the 'facts' as known.

I believe very little I read in the press myself but given the choice I would tend to believe the Guardian (even with it's spulling orrors.) above the Sun. I remember the Sun's coverage of people picking the pockets of the dead and urinating on police at the Hillsborough disaster well enough for me to give them no credance whatsoever.

I am happy to support your views that the British army has been involved in some awful attrocities but to include this as one of them is, in my view, incorrect. Putting Trooper Williams alongside the perpetrators of genuine attrocities is not only unfair to him but also unfair to the victims of the real villians.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,RÚN
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 09:20 AM

IT IS JUST TYPICAL OF THE TACTICS OF THE BRITISH ARMY TO SHOOT FIRST THEN MAKE UP THE ANSWERS NEVER MIND ASKING THE QUESTIONS, LIKE MANY OCCASIONS HERE IN IRELAND, WERE THEY BELIEVED SOMEONE WAS ABOUT TO PULL A GUN OUT OR PUSH A BUTTON THE ONLY ARMS THEY WERE CARRYING WAS PROBABLY THE ONES THEY WERE TRYING TO HANDCUFF IN THE FIRST PLACE NOTHING CHANGES NO MATTER WHAT COUNTRY THEY INVADE TO TORTURE,BULLY,AND MURDER,THEN THEY WONDER WHY SOMEONE SENDS THEM HOME IN BOXES.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 09:31 AM

Nice balanced view from a typical ' guest '

eric

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 11:14 AM

Peace keeping is tough and thankless.
US troops in Iraq have not perfomed as well as Brits, shooting civillians on a scale that Bloody Sunday does not compare with.
If you are being occupied, you could do a lot worse than the British army.
Curator, Britain is quite well liked by it's former colonies, who have chosen to join the Commonwealth.
Alone among former imperialist nations, our colonies were not given up in blood and fire, but with tea and ceremony.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 12:20 PM

Popularity, respect and allurement usually results in an incease in size, correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't the Empire and Commonwealth shrunk somewhat over the years ? Yes many were handed over with tea and ceremony, but what set the table ?
Good to hear from you, hope your well.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 07:33 AM

Well thanks, and yourself?
The Commonwealth is not shrinking, infact some non ex colonies would like to join. I think mozambique has joined.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 08:22 AM

What happened when a country wants to leave it ? Ask Robert Mugabe, you become a world villain.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Stu
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 08:22 AM

Curator wrote: "Yes Ooh Aah, the English are loved in every country in the world . . ."

Let's call this the Xenophobia thread! Substitute 'English' for 'blacks', 'Jews' or whoever and it isn't difficult to see where people like this are coming from.

All English people are Oliver Cromwell! All Irish people are Terrorists! All muppets are Kermit the Frog! etc etc etc

Using incidents like this to propagate the type of racist crap the Curator loves to expound makes you think he loves the fight, and would be lost without it. No side in NI should be particulary proud of the way they have acted. In Iraq, the Brits and the US have slaughtered a large number of innocent people - why prosecute a soldier who shoots a civilian face to face while ignoring the airman who fires a rocket into a crowd of Iraqi children playing?

US out of Iraq, Brits out of Northern Ireland, West Bromwich Albion out of the Premiership yadda yadda yadda. Just put the gun down.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 08:38 AM

I am not a racist stigweard, just not very fond of one nation that came over and took the land of the people who lived on it and also owned it, including my ancestors. I researched my family tree three years ago and found they were thrown of the lands they owned as it was given to an Englishman as a reward for his overseas service to the crown. I suppose I should be more forgiving.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Stu
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:08 AM

But you keep refering to 'The English' Curator?

Is that all the English people currently alive, or just a select few? Perhaps you mean the English in the British Army who served in NI - I agree your reasons for despising an army of occupation may be legimiate - but what about the Scots, Welsh and Irish who serve in the British Army? The Gurkhas?

How far back in the past must an event be before we stop using it as a convenient hook to hang our prejudices from? You state your land was taken from you 800 years ago. Well, mine was taken from me 950 years ago (by the same people who took your land - but wait a second - weren't they the Plantagenets - and they were French, so you must hate all Frenchmen too), and 500 years before that, and 400 years before that and 2000 years before that etc . . .

This is the sort of twisting of history that is used to justify the actions of small-minded bigots the world over. No history is without it's injustices, and perhaps the English (or should that be British Curator? - you tell me) have perpetrated more than most over the years and these are lessons that should be learnt from, not used to incite more hatred and suffering against anyone, regardless of where they were born.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:35 AM

So what attitude should I take ? Advise me. Roll over and accept what I have endured, witnessed and had to live with in almost 50 years of life ? Yes as an example we all call on history, I am guilty of this if you see it as a fault.I cannot change what I feel from within,I do not and cannot accept a BRITISH occupation of my country.Yes every side in this conflict has carried out deeds no one is proud of. I hold a viewpoint as do you, but I am not a small minded bigot I am a Republican and very proud to be.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:45 AM

Ask Robert Mugabe, you become a world villain

Know what you are getting at, Curator, but not a good example I'm afraid. It was actualy Ian Smith who 'left' when he unilateraly declared independance from Britain. he was the 'bad guy' then because he did not want Mugabe to become leader. He has, unfortnately, been proven right by subsequent events and Mugabe realy has become a world villain:-(

Well, what do you expect from someone who's name is an anagram of E' ba' gum, Trebor!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Stu
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 11:00 AM

I am not suggesting you should roll over and take it - I wouldn't and I don't think anyone should put up with any injustice or oppression.

But you were spouting racial abuse against the English, and I find racism deeply disturbing in whatever form it comes in. Don't tar everyone from one country with the same brush - how do you know I'm not a Republican? Because I was born in England?

I don't mean to engage in name-calling Curator, and I sincerely hope I haven't offended you. I have high regard for people who are willing to argue their corner, and both our viewpoints are as valid as anyone elses. The key to solving the situation in NI will be the finding of common ground between the various parties involved, and to do that you need to see beyond past prejudices and that takes courage and commitment.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 11:06 AM

Good points, well put across. No offence taken.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 08:35 AM

Curator, yes you should be more forgiving.
Those who wronged your ancestors in the Plantation period are now dust.
Such ancient wrongs are simply not valid any more.
Since then, the whole of North America has ben colonised by settlers from other continents. Are they wrong to call themselves Americans and own land?
Since then how many English and Scots peasants have been disposessed and exiled on coffin ships. Whole villages ceased to exist. Who should their descendants curse now?
To allow ancient history to colour your opinion of whole current national populations is absurd.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,liberalhater
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:08 PM

The biggest lie is that the British Empire spread civilisation throughout the world. You only have to look at the Irish to know that we failed completly.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 01:59 PM

Sadly Keith many of those that WRONGED my family are still very much alive. Yes I have referred back on historical points, but many many sores are still very raw.I speak of events in my living lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Barry O
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 04:47 PM

Just as those who WRONGED the McCartney family are still very much alive ... and walking freely around Belfast.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:07 PM

Expelled from the movement. Ever wondered why the PSNI have not arrested and charged anyone, they know who did it. More mileage in keeping them on the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: puck
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 07:21 PM

I have never wanted to 'own' your country. It is yours to keep. I as a Welshman can cat4egorically state that I do not wish to own any part of your land. Leave it for the Irish I say. But I would like to say that you lot are making one hell of a balls-up of it. Try working together to make abetter Ireland instead of living in the past. There are , undoubtedly a lot of bad past memories, but it is for you to to look to the future and not dwell in the past. Take heed of South African politics and their 'truth and reconcilliation' policy.    You never know Curator you might learn a lot!! Puck

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:07 PM

Any point in trying out a reconciliation commission such as has been done in South Africa, or has that indeed been tried in Eire?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Barry O
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 11:07 PM

Nice one, Curator. Deflect the blame from the IRA thugs who litterally beat the living shit out of Robert McCartney to the police investigating the case. What a warped sense of justice you have.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Jimmy C
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 12:07 AM

Barry O -


For your information - McCartney and a companion had just insulted a lady and when her husband objected, there was a bit of a tussle with McCartney and his friend, This man ended up with a cut throat as well. He and his wife were on their way to the hospital when a second argumemt started ( as a result of the first one), unfortunately McCartney was killed. I am not saying he deserved it but he is not entirely innocent by any means.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Jimmy C
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 12:11 AM

Puck,

I know you dont want to own any part of Ireland, that is understandable, as a Welshman you don't even own Wales.

The Scots have their whiskey
The Welsh have their leeks
Their poets are paid about tenpence a week
providd no harsh word on England they speak
Oh Lord what a price for devotion

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 06:55 AM

The families of the victims of the Dublin-Monaghan bombings last night said they had no confidence in a new investigation.

In two no-warning atrocities of 1974, nobody has ever been convicted, in total 34 people were killed.

The bombings were believed to have been carried out by the UVF, with help from British intelligence.

A private inquiry into the bombings was set up in 2003 by retired Judge Henry Barron, but the British authorities refused to co-operate or provide files or information.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 07:12 AM

Barry O, The Provisional movement did not go out to kill McCartney. This was a pub brawl in which several people were involved. The person who killed McCartney was a Republican, but he was not on a sanctioned operation.There have been a number of killing in the North through bar fights, as there have been in Dublin, London and elsewhere. Is it because the individual who killed McCartney was a member of the Provisional Movement that is your gripe ? if so state it.If so, Read again my answer.Another Republican received 34 stitches to a neck wound from a friend of McCartney, can't see your acknowledgement of that.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,I aint English, am a Yorkshireman
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 08:13 AM

I hate the following peoples

Vikings
Romans
Normans
Saxons
Celtics
People form Staffordshire

Oh what the hell, I forgive you all

Rascism is the weapon of the stupid Curator, get with the program

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 08:25 AM

Where do you get the Rascism bit Yorkie, Because I don't like the English in my country and deeds they carried out in my lifetime, what am I to do, change and forgive, abandon my principals because it's sound advice from you ? What I would expect from you,a lack of understanding.I am not a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,I aint English, am a Yorkshireman
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 08:33 AM

Listen Curator,

Bad news with the beating and the bashing of teeth and stuff mucker, but that has nothing to do with me and the majority of english, scottish, welsh, yorkshiremen and even lancastrians. The fact that you include all of the above in your bitterness is broad sweepin generalisation (i.e rascism) and its no good for no one.

Sure its wrong that Oliver Cromwell started this mess years back, but he want much of a divine influence on this country either.

The N.Ireland problem = British, Loyalist, republican, Irish buggering about and the sooner we realise that the quicker we get it sorted. As they say in my part of the country pull yourself together lad.

Tyke

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: *Laura*
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 01:42 PM

Irish people have gorgeous accents - that's good enough fer me! :0)

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:18 PM

Thank you my dearest Laura.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Jimmy C
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:30 PM

GUEST,I aint English, am a Yorkshireman - PM
Re: that has nothing to do with me and the majority of english, scottish, welsh, yorkshiremen and even lancastrians.

Well I think it has. You are the people who elected the government, and as such are responsible for the actions of that government and all it's agencies. The army being one such agency. The german people were punished because they elected Hitler. the Japanese were punished for the actions of their government etc.

I as a republican do not hate the english. I hate the idea that 2 world wars were fought for one principle - DEMOCRACY and the rights of small nations. The majority of Welsh people want to belong to the British Empire (or whats left of it) - the majority of Scots want to belong also to Britain - and that is fine and dandy, because that is Democracy,   but the majority of Irish DO NOT. and that is what I detest about the english, they are willing to go to war to defend democracy and do nothing to right a wrong at their very doorstep/ And before you come back about the majority in the 6 counties - they are not the majority on the island of Ireland, they never were and they never will be.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Jimmy C
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:33 PM

By the way Laura, thank you very much, you really want to hear us when we turn it on.

We can charm the birds out of the trees but unfortunately we can't talk the english out of our country (not yet anyway)

Slan

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:40 PM

Nice one JimmyC. It was always the same as you will remember, when I was getting my house turned over or held without cause or reason, I always heard the same old line, I WOULD RATHER BE BACK HOME WITH MY FAMILY,THAN OVER HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:31 AM

Laura, you can probably purchase CDs of Ian Paisley's speeches.
Should be quite a turn on for you.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 04:12 AM

Now Keith, that's a good old Ulster Scots accent the doctor has.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome in the back door!
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:37 AM

Well I think it has. You are the people who elected the government, and as such are responsible for the actions of that government and all it's agencies. The army being one such agency. The german people were punished because they elected Hitler. the Japanese were punished for the actions of their government etc.

1) The government can, and has, been elected by a minoroty of the people.
2) The British governement is not just elected by the English people but also by the peoples of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
3) Just who are these English people you 'do not hate'? The ones from Pakistan? Jamaica? Bosnia? Iraq? Or, like me, a mixture of Polish, Russian and Welsh?
4) If, in a democratic country, all it's peoples are to be blamed for the actions of a government what do you propose the punishment should be? Should the people who voted against it be rewarded? What about the people that didn't vote at all?
5) Just what was the punishment metered out to the people of Germany and Japan? Why were they singled over, say, the people of America and France who voted in the governments that waged war on the North Vietnamese? Or the Irish who sympathised with the Germans in WW2?

I am sure I could go on and ask more questions but I think you may get the picture. Did you think out the above paragragh, Jimmy C, or was it just knee jerk and, dare I say, racist, dogma?

Fell free to slag off the government, establishment and whatever other faceless organisation you wish but when you start to lay the blame for your ills on a whole race of people you are on the lip of a very slippery slope. After all, everyone knows that the Jews brought about all the economic problems Germany experienced in the 1930's don't they?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome
(A Lancastrian agreeing with a Yorkshireman! What is this world coming to...)

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:07 AM

The Irish were neutral during The Emergency.
If that means 'You're either with us, or against us', then David, you may well indeed have a point.

Some would call that Pretzel logic, however.

The Republic was neutral to the degree that wayward British soldiers were given safe passsage back to their bases... via the wee six, when downed, or captured.
The Germans were promptly interned.

Given that England's difficulty was always Ireland's opportunity, I think you got off fairly light, actually.

I always wondered what the craic would have been, had the Germans actually invaded and occupied England.
Would the resistance movement created on the back of that, be similar to that which we now call 'Terrorism'?

Thank your lucky stars, oh arrogant ones, that the shoe was never on the other foot, and that you never had to make that choice to sacrifice your precious humanity, when your whole identity was at stake.

We did.
And we are stronger than you because of it.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:16 AM

Why don't you fuck off to a Sinn Fein site? "The Irish were neutral" my fucking arse they were! If England had lost the war, you would have been taken over by Germany too.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome, still in the rear entry....
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:28 AM

GUEST,Tiocfaidh, I think you have a very reasonable and polite argument. I, for one, would not like you to "fuck off to a Sinn Fein site"! I did not intend to imply however that the whole Irish people were pro-Hitler. But some were. My mistake has gone a long way to proving the point I was making though. A few people in the south of Ireland supported Hitler. To tar the entire race as Nazi's is unjust. A few people in England think that Ireland belongs to them. To tar the entire nation as anti-Irish is equaly unjust.

As to Some would call that Pretzel logic, however., no one i know would. I am not sure what a pretzel is, let alone how it applies logic:-P

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 08:28 AM

Typical typical typical. An Irishman makes a comment and out comes the F word, is that the best you can come up with ? It's always the same, Paddy is not allowed a voice on this site. When you don't like what you hear it's always the same, GO TO A SINN FEIN SITE,(do we tell you to F off to a combat 18 site ?) GO AND F. MAKING TROUBLE. Churchill asked Eamon de Valera for permission to allow his Sunderland bombers to fly out of Lough Erne in Ulster and to cross Donegal in the Republic when the U boats were sinking his shipping by the dozen, it was granted, no problem. When an R.A.F. crew flew into the side of a mountain in the Republic killing all on board, their bodies where recovered and brought to the border with respect. The locals living in the area held a mass for their intention.Rattling on about Sin Fein again is boring, they are the second largest party in the six counties also the largest nationalist voice, Are we not allowed to speak ? sorry but the gagging order was removed some time back. There are many issues raised on this site and debated with skill. I am An Irish Republican and my voice will be heard like it or not. If F. off is all you come back to us with as a form of an answer then your time would be better spent on the football terraces of Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 08:50 AM

Agreed wholeheartedly, Curator. One of the beauty's of the Mudcat is the ability to discuss and debate from a completely opposing standpoint without any violence or nastiness breaking out. I have made many friends here. I hope I count yourself as one of them even though we occasionaly disagree;-) This propensity for profanity and abuse seems endemic thoughout society so I guess it happening here should be no surprise. Sad all the same.

Keep on being civil and understanding each others viewpoint. It may eventualy rub off on some of the more obnoxious posters:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,GUEST,I aint English, am a Yorkshireman
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:38 AM

Curator: Nay bother about you being a republican but lay off the english.

Jimmy C: I am far too young to have voted for Cromwell

*Laura*: Ow bout the Yorkshire accent "By eck lass, nah theres a feast on the eyes"

Dave the gnome: Tis a sad day when the roses agree

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:46 AM

"The ammorality of Irish wartime neutrality was summed up by de Valera's INFAMOUS visit to the German Ambassador in Dublin in April 1945, to present his condolences on the death of HITLER" - Geoffrey Robert in the Irish Times 24th june 2004.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:06 AM

Why wouldn't he? As head of state it was protocol. He was not at war with Germany and he was a pedant for protocol.

It's not as though he sat there and shook Mugabe's hand is it?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:15 AM

When they lay of me Yorkie, provocation will be responded to.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: EagleWing
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 01:37 PM

When they lay of me Yorkie, provocation will be responded to.

It seems strange to me that The Curator should have said this when most of the "laying on" has come from him and one or two of his pals.

This whole thread has saddened me as it gives a very different picture of the Irish people than that which I have gained from my, all too infrequent visits to both parts of Ireland.

I wish it could all be solved. It won't be as long as a few people keep feeding the hatred as The Curator and others are committed to doing. The Curator took a shaky story from one news paper while ignoring the fact that there were other versions. He related a situation in Iraq to the very different situation in Ireland and used it to condemn every Englishman. How does he think that will bring peace to his country?

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:31 PM

Flamenco Ted, Lord Londonderry one of Britains leading aristoprats, a direct descendant of Lord Castlereagh, was a dear friend of Adolf Hitler, a frequent visitor to Hitler`s mountain retreat, and this at a time when he was Secetary of State in the Brit Government, he abhored the excessive influence of Jews.

Londonderry was also a dear friend of George the fifth, the King lovingly addressed him as Charlie, and also dear Edward the abdicator, who along with his girl friend Mrs Simpson were also visitors to Adolf`s retreat in the mountains, Mrs Simpson was suspected of passing on information to Von Ribbentropp, another boy friend of dear Wallis.

So don`t look any further than Hitler`s admirers, quite numerous among the Brit establishment.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 04:28 PM

Now ard, you are going to get on the wrong side of the Eagles Wings with comments like that. Understand pal if I wish to express my view here I will, it really doesn't matter what you think. Clearly you don't like Republicans. Tough.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:28 PM

... then we would have dealt with the Germans no differently from the way we dealt with the British, Guest: 28 Apr 05 - 06:16 AM

Churchill apparently also asked Dev for the use of the 5 ports....., in return for the six counties (he reckoned he could get Carson's OK on this).
Dev refused.

Villa Lobos has trotted that argument out before, Ard Mhacha.
His hero, Thatcher.... well, what can I say.....

Remember, Eagle Wing that at one stage the vast majority of English people would have quite happily seen our country go up in a puff of smoke.

It is very easy to be magnanimous, when you're on the losing side.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 08:31 PM

A Hell of a lot of Obfuscation in this thread -But never let the facts get in the way of a good story !

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 08:32 PM

Hey Ted -- Another 100th !!

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 03:48 AM

Terry,
       I bow in the face of your superior post pinching ability!

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 04:20 AM

Leadfingers what do you find unfactual?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 06:02 AM

Churchill apparently also asked Dev for the use of the 5 ports....., in return for the six counties (he reckoned he could get Carson's OK on this).

Tiocfaidh, do you never check anything? Carson died in 1935.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,I aint English, am a Yorkshireman
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 06:26 AM

Curator: You lose your argument in a fog of bigotry. No matter if its against Nigerians, Germans, or Englishmen Curator its rascism, simple, fact, checkmate, king me, snap, in your face, whistle, safe, in the bank etc etc

my two British pennies

or as they say in Ireland

my two Euros

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 06:46 AM

There isn't a great deal that you can do with someone who has a 300year old chip on their shoulder.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:37 AM

... bad proofreading, Finn, that was all.
.... should have said The Carsonites

Apologies.... if necessary

Ahhhhh, Villa Lobos, a chip is nothing to someone who has the Amazon rain-forest on his...

Let me take my chainsaw to it, dear chap:

Irish neutrality was completely biased in favour of the allies.
1 All weather reports were banned from public broadcast fearing axis interception, they were passed to Britain however.
2 Naval observers reported U-Boat activity to the British admiralty(Unlikely therefore that we were refuelling them!)
3 British intelligence was brought in to co-operate in a search for possible axis spy rings operating in Ireland.
4 Axis airman who crashed in Ireland were interred in the Curragh army basefor the war's duration. Allied air-crews however were returned across the northern border .
5 A joint defense plan was drawn up between Ireland and Britain in case of invasion. Funds were held in Dublin banks to pay british troops if required.
6. The bombing of Belfast was a high point in North South relations because Dublin dispatched ambulances over the border to help with casualties, something welcomed by even the Northern Unionists.
7 Irish citizens were free to join allied armies and return to Ireland without recrimination even if they had deserted the Irish army to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:59 AM

Yorkie don't know where you think you have won the argument, and this going on about bigotry. I am not a bigot. It's clear your dislike of the Irish, are you a bigot ? I am a Republican and proud of it. That's what you can't accept, the fact I exist, the fact your government released our volunteers from prison, the fact we are strong in local government and again we will see this next week.Please don't delude friend.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:10 AM

Not one of the regular Ireland bashers on this thread could come up with a reason for Brits to be in NI on another thread. Yet now they object to Irish people having points of view that clash with their own khaki coloured ones.

You really do need to move on and accept the years you spent patrolling our streets and stopping kids on their way to the sweet shop, were a total waste of time and life.

We'll whistle you a song as you leave. Missing you already.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:17 AM

... Oh..., and if it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Yorkie as now labelled
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:17 AM

Where ave I mentioned my dislike of the Irish or even in fact the Republicans (a worthy cause if done properly) while your blatent hatred of the English is plain for any mudcatter to see.

Alright I admit it, I dont like Guinness, thats it everyone I'm a rascist. It says so in my passport, The united kingdom of Rascist bigots and Northern Ireland. Look at your post before you sling the mud Curator, then come back with a sane riposte.

Yorkie

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:20 AM

How is Republicanism 'done properly', oh Chocolate bar extreme?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:24 AM

its called political pressure not bombing innocent civillians or are you unsure of the difference Eoghain. Thats the one reason you'll never achieve a united Ireland, for alot of Irish "patriots" there's too much profit in bitterness and feeling sorry for yourselves.

Yorkie,

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:32 AM

We had no political pressure to exert, Yorkie, or have you forgotten the years up to the GFA.

The only reason we are where we are is because of our Glorious Armed Struggle.

Accept it

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,yorkie - one big son of a bitchin anglo saxo
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:43 AM

accept what? that you have no united ireland in spite of your "glorious armed struggle" don't make me laugh, too late, I'm pissing my union jack pants as I type.

Accepted friendly neighbourhood Paddy - good luck on that Eire thing - Yorkie

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:55 AM

We get rid of you first..., which we did.
We get equality...., which is on its way.

We've waited 800 years.
We can wait a few more....

Our Armed Struggle was GLORIOUS, Yorkie.
You just have a different perspective.

End result is still the same, though... and end to the interfering of London in our affairs.

Al Q is on its way, Yorkie.
One door closes, another door closes, eh?

Good luck on your National Security thing.
We'll be alright however, Jack!

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Yorkie
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:01 AM

away little child, balaclavas are for hiking!

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:07 AM

Considering they were first used in that other famous debacle of yours, I fail to see the sanity of that riposte.

Whether being a Yorkshireman, or an Englishman, you lot still don't really like to lose, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:16 AM

Sanity is something you and the curator lost long ago along with your arguement.

Have a nice weekend Paddy, I'm off now to have a pint of ale amongst some fellow countrymen, people who don't live in the past.

TALLY HO

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:43 AM

What argument have we 'lost', Yorkie (... I take it)?
Have you lost your wrapper, or something?

Have a drink to the de-tumescence of your proud Empire on me, Yorkie.
You would need a stiff one, I think

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Bobby George
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 10:00 AM

Waaaaaan hannnnndred and twennnnnt teeeeeee

Good Darts

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 10:22 AM

Yorkie, I hold a point of view which you don't accept, no problem. If and when I speak my mind you don't agree with it, no problem. But stop saying all we do is look back into the past. On Monday night last it was pissing down over when I was stopped in the street by a mobile patrol and questioned as to where I was coming from and to where I was going. It went into every detail of my past week. After 15 minutes I was told to go on my way. Britain has more troops in the North of Ireland than they do in Iraq. Just for a minute meet me half way on this one, how would you feel honestly if this was you in your home town and the soldiers were French ? This is not a one off, this happens and it's not the first time I have been stopped and questioned, told to go and then 30 minutes later stopped by the same patrol and go through it all again. This is reality.I am not making it up. So please tell me your stance on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 12:22 PM

at one stage the vast majority of English people would have quite happily seen our country go up in a puff of smoke

Huh? When did that happen? I never noticed?

Unfortunately we seem to have more than one line of reasoning here. One, like the point about stop and search, armed patrols on the streets and not inviting or wanting armed intervention seems to be based on fact and reason. The other seems to be based on equal ammounts of hate, predjudice and sheer ignorance. Whereas I can understand and sympathise with the former I can never agree to the latter, from either side.

Although this started as a thread about a completely different subject which, if anyone would care to read back, I stongly disagreed with, it was obvious it was to become another thread on 'the troubles'. I feel the Curator was wrong in his interpretation of the incident but I know full well that this is the type of thing every polititian will use to further his or her own cause. The Curator is a polititian, in his own way, of no mean status and I know he will not take offense when I disagree with some of his views. Neither do I take offense when he uses all means in his power to attack the establishment.

I will not however accept the view that a whole race of people, the English in this case, should become subject to abuse and hatred just because of their race. I, nor anyone here, is responsible for the misuse of power within the armed forces and I will do my best to expose it whenever possible. I will do whatever I can to fight injustice, whether I believe that to be the 'liberation' of the six counties or the random bombing of civilians by the para-militaries. And I will always try to expose obvious and ridiculous untruths like "at one stage the vast majority of English people would have quite happily seen our country go up in a puff of smoke".

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: EagleWing
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 01:05 PM

Now ard, you are going to get on the wrong side of the Eagles Wings with comments like that. Understand pal if I wish to express my view here I will, it really doesn't matter what you think. Clearly you don't like Republicans. Tough.

Ard's comments, far from getting on the wrong side of me, were perfectly accurate, to the best of my knowledge, and I have no problem with the fact that they Ard has used them.

Why is it clear that I don't like Republicans? I dislike people trying to keep the hatred fresh in order to ensure that the peace is made impossible. But that is not the hallmark of all republicans.

Of course you can express your race hatred here. No one has attempted to stop you. I just think it's a pity you feel that spreading hatred is the best way to bring about either peace or a united Ireland - which I would like to see.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: EagleWing
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 01:12 PM

Remember, Eagle Wing that at one stage the vast majority of English people would have quite happily seen our country go up in a puff of smoke.

It is very easy to be magnanimous, when you're on the losing side.

Can't speak for the majority of English people. I don't know anybody who have had that opinion - sounds like propoganda to me.

I'm not on any side so I can't be on the losing side and have no interest in winning or losing anything. I just want to see the hatred come to an end and, therefore, wish people, whatever their "side" would stop encouraging hatred and start encouraging peace.

Still, if you wish for the senseless slaughter to start up again, nothing I say or believe will stop you from carrying on with your messages of hate.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:24 PM

What makes you think that this 'senseless slaughter' of yours will start up 'again', Frank?

Just because we acknowledge that the war is over, and that The British lost, and that we remind you about it at every given opportunity.... just like your countrymen used to try and get us to bow the knee at every given one, yourselves.

I see no hate from the Republican contingent here.
A little bit of rubbing your collective nose in it, perhaps, which we have every right to do, given what your governments did to us on your behalf for centuries.

Live with it, all of you. You took a well deserved hammering in Ireland, and no platitudes that you could come up with will ever wipe that stain away.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:47 PM

Nice wriggle, Tiocfaidh, except that from long before Churchill was PM Stormont was packed with Craigites, who would have regarded Carsonites as weird pinkos. Still, I had my tongue in my cheek, and I do go along with your main point that Irish neutrality was tilted significantly in the Allies' favour. Dev's paying respects on the death of Hitler was just a stupid blunder (which didn't do much for his reputation in the international community).

On the subject of the thread, I haven't followed the ins and outs of the specific case, but I have several times felt ashamed of the cavalier way the British Army has behaved in the aftermath of similar questionable incidents. It's no defence to say other countries behave just as badly - one always hopes one's own country will show some sensitivity and common decency. Oh, and of course I've been disgusted to witness the kind of episode in which the Curator lost his front teeth. My initial loathing has usually been towards the squaddies who do these things, but in truth the blame is with those who use armies for civilian policing, as they are doing in Iraq right now.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 06:32 PM

given what your governments did to us on your behalf for centuries

I am what you may call 'average age'. I have been able to vote for over 30 years. I don't think anyone has been doing anything on my behalf for centuries. In fact I would say that the majority of people still alive in the UK have only ever voted for parties who genuinely want to give the six counties back to Ireland. The fact that the government of Eire do not realy want them back is very little to do with the current electorate. Or am I missing something?

Cheers

Davd the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 06:44 PM

In fact, just as I hit the submit button I had a flash of inspiration. I will categoricaly now state that I am representative of the English electorate. As such I am more than happy to give the six counties back to Eire. I suggest that the majority of English people reading this would agree.

I would also go one step further. I agree that many wrongs have been commited on the people of Ireland by the English government. I cannot apologise for those wrongs as I cannot speak on behalf of those who commited them but, as for myself, I will agree to vote for the very next candidate who agrees with my views.

Good enough?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:25 PM

You're all such bloody pedants. Foinn... they're all feckin' Carsonites, every last one of them. Always have been, always will be.
If you ever got close enough to them to smell their breath, you would know them...., but then, you just comment; you never experience.

And Dave, who forgets what his governments did on his behalf since he reached voting age, now wants to give the six counties back to Éire, and in all truthfulness, I'm sure, says that he does not speak on behalf of those who committed atrocities against us.

No Dave. They spoke on behalf of you.

Past tense, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:33 AM

Sorry, Tiocfaidh, but no-one speaks on my behalf, particulary those long dead. Wherever did you get that idea from? Neither has any government acted on my behalf. I am not ashamed to say that since I began to vote no Government that I have voted for has ever gained power. Anyone who has seen my previous political posts will know that I do not trust a single man-jack of them. Anyone who believes that they can run a country must be completely insane and therefore excluded from standing for Parliament, in my opinion.

I'm still nor sure what this has to do with the thread topic though.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 04:38 AM

Your fingers must be sore then dave, from all those letters you typed to your elected Govt asking them to review their NI policy. Or did you mount a silent protest?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 05:51 AM

They are indeed, Guest. How did you know? Not only the NI Policy btw - Iraq, the NHS and PEL's have also been subjects of letters. I wouldn't know how to mount a silent protest. Thanks for pointing out that I don't only voice my protests on a folk music forum that doesn't realy matter, as some do, but I also let the people who can do something know how I feel. How exactly do you do it?

As to "your elected Govt". I don't no how many ways I can say they are not my elected government. I will keep trying though.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:35 AM

dave´s one of the good guys folks. If he could vote sinn fein, he would.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: EagleWing
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:55 AM

What makes you think that this 'senseless slaughter' of yours will start up 'again', Frank?

Not my senseless slaughter. I haven't slaughtered anyone. Or if I have according to your logic then all the people murdered by the IRA are your personal responsibility.

Why might it start again? I should have thought that was obvious even to you.

Incidentally, I haven't actually seen the result or even the evididence that anyone has won. I wish I had. I wish, like Dave, that there was a united Ireland in which ex-loyalists and republicans and every faith were all living together in peace and harmony. Then everyone, except the hate mongers, will have won.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:42 PM

dave´s one of the good guys folks. If he could vote sinn fein, he would.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Guest:-) I don't like to dissillusion you but I'm afrain I wouldn't:-( As I said above I think anyone who wants to rule a country must be completely barking mad. I would never vote for anyone who wasn't in full control of their facilites;-)

The only person I trust to control my life is me. Now, on the other hand, if you feel you would like a benign dictatorship then I am your man..:D

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:49 PM

On second thoughts, if there were a Sinn Fein candidate in Salford next Thursday I probably WOULD vote for them. Trouble is round here if you stuck a red rosette on a pig they would vote for it...

Cheers

:D

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:15 PM

They would even vote for a monkey in Hartlepool.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:57 PM

They voted one in to the White House!

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Jimmy C
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:19 AM

Guests-

I don't want this to go to the wrong "GUEST" - it's to the one who talked about living in the past. Many people live partly in the past. The Irish remember the famine, the Black and Tans etc. Scots will remember Bannockburn, Wallace. Bruce etc. Jews will think of the 40 years in the desert and the holocaust ( as it has a right to), and Americans will always remember 9/11, Orangemen in Ireland will remember 1690 and of course England will remember 1966 ( when they won the world cup), a topic that is sure to come up when you anre enjoying your pint of ale.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,The old soldier
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 10:41 AM

I have never heard do much clap trap in all my life Its obvious the original story came from a Nationalist rag in Belfast.

Just a few fact; the soldier did is duty correctly and to the letter of the Law.

The IRA murdered far more Catholic Irish men. Than the British Army ever did and they certainly murdered more innocent Catholic women and children.

The IRA although they have once again lost the war, they are continuing to murder their own people

Lets face it the IRA were a terrorist organisation and that's what terrorist do; murder innocent people that is

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 01:48 PM

Who woke up Rip Van Winkle, go back to sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 02:03 PM

Now I wonder who could have possibly brought this thread back fom the dead ??????????????????????????????
I imagine it will come to me eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Gurney
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 01:01 AM

Divis, I was just wondering where you were! The Curator sounds very much like you. Did you go to the same school?

Ard Mhacha, about your comments on the British establishment figures being so friendly with Adolph Hitler: What is your take on the fact that, despite that friendship, Britain still went to war with him (and his ENORMOUS army and airforce, despite his overtures of friendship?

Back to the thread. Remember the thread?

If I was a British squaddy, trying to defend the innocent civilians of Iraq from suicide bombers (because that is what they are currently doing), and some joker with a handcart of something I couldn't identify wouldn't do as he was told, then that joker's life would be in serious jeopardy. Suicide bombers play by their rules, I'd play by mine. You can call me prejudiced, but I wouldn't like to be called dead stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: sinpelo
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:24 PM

I think it's very easy to cast judgment on someone who is expected to be both a pillar of the community and a highly efficient killer. Particularly in a situation in which it isn't always clear which persona is needed at any given moment.

Of course there are abuses and, when there are obvious abuses, we should express our outrage. But in a situation about which we know so little, I don't think it helps anyone to speculate what the truth might be. A million theories won't make a single truth.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: NH Dave
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 10:44 PM

One advantage of being in the US or the US military is that once you are tried for an offense, you can not be tried a second time for the same offense, on the same evidence.

Had Trooper Williams been in the US Forces his initial trial in the military would have been the end of the situation, regardless of outcome. He could not then be charged with the same offense and brought up on the same charges in a civil court.

On the other hand, conviction for a minor offense such as being late for work or formation in a military courts martial is a federal conviction, even though the offense might have been classed a misdemeanor or not considered a crime at all in a civilian setting.

One of the things we fought for, some 275 years ago.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 03:30 AM

If you Google his name you will get a selection of news reports.

There is general agreement that the cart, being pushed by 6 men, did contain heavy machine gun ammunition.

However the dead man seems to have been unarmed. Running was not a good idea though.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 03:48 AM

Is there a point to this thread Keith you asked Gurney to reserect ?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Gurney
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 11:17 PM

NH Dave, would you like to check if that IS "one of the things you fought for, 275 years ago."
I think it is one of the many things that you adopted directly from British law.

Just being pedantic, not looking for a row.

Guest 03.48, I have never corresponded with Keith A, nor he with me, privately nor publicly. We have addressed the same threads, but he has never (nor likely will ever) asked me to 'reserect' anything at all.