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Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
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Subject: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: The Curator Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:28 AM I have been accused of visiting this site to cause trouble and stir shit. I have been called a bigot and an anti British wanker.No hurt or offence taken. I am a Republican and a Irishman and I believe Britain should not be in Ireland. Please give me the reasons why you feel they should remain here ? And before you say it's what the marjority want,when were the people of England, Scotland and Wales consulted.I expect the usual abuse for holding this viewpoint, but please try to keep it constructive. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: The Curator Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:30 AM Sorry for some reason this hasn't gone to the non music section. Advise how to shift ?
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:35 AM Britain are not in Ireland they are in Ulster which despite the wishes of the majority of both Irish and English people remains part of the UK. Until such time as the unification of Ireland takes place the Government has a responsibility to the population there. I advocate the Government stating clearly now that in a set period, for instance 25 years they will cede all interest in Ulster and allow the various factors 25 years to come to terms with a fait accompli, and make the necessary adjustments, it worked in Hong Kong. Curator please do not offence at this it is not an attack on yourself or the wonderful people of Ireland where I have spent more than 20 holidays in recent years. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on my 25 year proposal |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Brakn Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:39 AM "part of Ulster" |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:44 AM Sorry you are correct, I didn't consider Donegal etc. I didn't put my name to this or my ealier contribution as it may be contentious by the way ! |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Wolfgang Date: 12 Apr 05 - 11:21 AM In this political question, all the real deep understanding starts with correcting each others language. The first two posters other than the Curator have criticised his language: You should not say Ireland when you mean Ulster, You should not say Ireland when you mean only a part of Ulster. Let me add to that sarcastically by telling the Curator: You should not say British when you mean English. You have been called an anti-English wanker, not an anti-British one. On the serious side, the Good Friday solution (N.Ireland can leave the UK if the majority in that part of the world wishes for that) has my support. Wolfgang (thoroughly disliking the language correction business in the N.Ireland question) |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 12 Apr 05 - 11:44 AM It shouldn't as far as I am concerned! On the subject of semantics should it be "should (Part of )Ireland remain in Britain" though? One being bigger than the other? Ah well, no matter either way. If I was elected on May 5 (See UK Election thread - I offer my services as benign dictator:-) ) I would be out by the 6th. I would however like to ensure that the supporters of the Union were ensured certain rights. It would be very unfair to expect people who have lived there all their lives to give up their culture and traditions or to up sticks and move to mainland UK. I know some of the Unionists themselves have perpetuated some gross injustices but it would be good if the 'new republic' would ensure their welcome and ensure revenge was not on the agenda. Some day... Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Stu Date: 12 Apr 05 - 11:59 AM In the long run, the only option is for the Brits to leave. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST Date: 12 Apr 05 - 12:22 PM I know the thread is short, but so far the vast majority want the brits out. Where are the usual republican bashers? Are they unable to articulate an argument as to why the brits should be there? It does justify in some small way why the IRA had to fight the war, when nobody can come up with a reason for the soldiers being there? |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Apr 05 - 12:49 PM NO part of Ireland has ever been part of Britain, which is an island comnprised of England, Scotland and Wales. "The United Kingdom" is the term for the political unit that is made up Britain, together with the part of the province of Ulster kniwn as "Northern Ireland". So the actual question is "Why should Northern Ireland remain within the United Kingdom?" Now if only there could be a referendum about that throughout the United Kingdom... |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST Date: 12 Apr 05 - 12:53 PM Yes if only McGrath. Wonder if anyone could come up with a reason. Sure are struggling here. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,Paul Burke Date: 12 Apr 05 - 12:55 PM The main reason the Brits stayed in Ireland was the block of reliable Tory votes supplied by the Unionist party. Plus of course revenge for the Irish having had the temerity not only to ask for independence, but to actually win it. The immediate solution is simple: PAISLEY FOR POPE provided he agrees to reunification. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Grab Date: 12 Apr 05 - 01:08 PM Please give me the reasons why you feel they should remain here? Because, by majority vote, that's what the Northern Irish want. I don't believe there's any mechanism in international law for unilaterally expelling a region from your country if they don't want to go. You can sign them up to another country if you want, but they have to be assigned to some country. Which leads to another point. Since you're an Irishman and Republican, you might like to talk to your political representative about Eire's views on NI. Because since the Anglo-Irish Agreement, Eire has consistently said that it wouldn't take NI if it was handed to them on a silver plate. Eire has got its economy in order, and the last thing they want is a bunch of nutters dragging them down. Because there's some semblance of peace these days, the English, Welsh and Scots probably aren't too worried about keeping them in the UK. Had you asked any time between 1980 and the late 90s though, the majority would probably have voted to cut the whole damn lot adrift and let the loonies on both sides go kill each other. The problem is that both sets of loonies have nothing in common with the countries they want to be members of. The Republicans want to be part of Eire - but Eire won't have them. The Unionists say they're British - but the British think they're racist scum. Go figure... Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: EagleWing Date: 12 Apr 05 - 01:10 PM Yes if only McGrath. Wonder if anyone could come up with a reason. Sure are struggling here. Could it possibly be that the majority of the people of Northern Ireland wish to remain in the United Kingdom? A referendum throughout the whole of the United Kingdom will involve a lot of people who have no interest in the desires of the people who actually live in Northern Ireland. Personally, I would like to see a united Ireland - but then I don't live in Northern Ireland. The fact is, for good or for evil, Ireland is partitioned. It should surely be for those who would be immediately affected to have their say first. After all, if we had a referendum throughout the British Isles as to whether the whole of Ireland should be part of the UK you might get a 'yes' vote which would be unfair to the people of the republic. Why then should the English, Welsh and Scots or even the people of the Irish Republic, vote on the future of the province? For me, the sooner the "Irish problem" becomes the problem for Ireland and not England or Great Britain, the better - but it's surely got to be the choice of the Northern Irish. Frank L. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: John MacKenzie Date: 12 Apr 05 - 01:16 PM I too would be out of there in a minute if I had the power. Only thing is that I think the Irish government would be even more upset than the Paisleyites as they would be lumbered with so much organised crime, [on both sides] and they already have plenty of their own. There's a lot to be said for setting a 'get out by' date, but 25 years is too long, I think 5 years is acheivable and might also be acceptable to the Republican side. No period of time will be acceptable to the Unionist side, so they might have to be offered resettlement if they can't live in a united Ireland, but they must not be allowed to stop it happening.It is inevitable that the majority vote in 1921 will eventually be recognised. Giok |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: DougR Date: 12 Apr 05 - 02:30 PM Curator: I think you have posed a most provocative question. The fact that folks are struggling with answers shows that I believe. My questions: If there were a vote in Ulster to unite with The Republic of Ireland, what do you think would be the result? If the Brits left Ulster, would it be possible for the province to govern itself (I rather doubt it but wonder)? DougR |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 12 Apr 05 - 03:57 PM Perhaps the essentials seriously required for a lasting solution are already in place and have been for some time. There is some outwaiting of fools to be done--their acceptance of any plan will be the catalyst for peace to prevail. There are some age-old arguments that present obstacles: both players, all participants, will need to set them aside rather than win them. Northern Ireland was won in battle, which makes it legitimately 'British' and nothing to do with the Republic. The Republic was established by treaty, which makes it legitimately independent and signatory to non-interference in another state's internal affairs. Many of the citizens of Northern Ireland have been sytemically abused by their own government. Paisleyists and Papists will have to pinch their noses and swallow this type of detraction. I believe union will come about when the haters are discredited. I believe that time is close at hand. Peace begins with you. You. We should be offering constructive support rather than trolling the weary xenophoebia we've inherited from the intellectually wanting. Both State and Province share an island, both are part of the European Economic Union, both are part of the British Isles. Sien Fein (Ourselves alone) is not going to happen, we are none of us alone. It seems to me the brightest future lies--if not necessarily 'united,'-- certainly 'together.' Pax |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 12 Apr 05 - 04:15 PM Curator: I think you have posed a most provocative question. The fact that folks are struggling with answers shows that I believe. I'm not sure Doug. It could just be that a number of people from the UK, including myself would rather see us out of there for one reason or other. From my side, my sentiments towards Ireland do tend towards a united Irish Republic. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST Date: 12 Apr 05 - 05:53 PM Out of Northern Ireland, out of Scotland, out of Wales, let the moaning unemployable bastards fund their own dole. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST Date: 12 Apr 05 - 06:10 PM because they're scared stiff of the persecution of the Unionists that would inevitably ensue, for revenge of past ills, that would lead to a mass migration of UK passport holders to an already overcrowded mainland. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Richard Bridge Date: 12 Apr 05 - 07:18 PM Wrong question. Why should all Ireland not be part of England? Was conquered by Cromwell, no? That was quite a while back. If Ireland (or any part thereof) can lawfully secede by revolution, why not Wales, or Cornwall, etc? Or indeed the Southern States from the USA? Scotland is different because of the Act of Union. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Apr 05 - 07:54 PM "Why should all Ireland not be part of England?" That's a bit like saying "Why should my leg not be part of my arm?" If my arm was part of my leg, it wouldn't be a leg. If most people in Wales or Cornwall wanted to secede from England I doubt very much if anything would be done to stop them. The Westrminster Goivernment has learnt better than to try to resist that kind of thing by force. When a majority in Northern Ireland as a whole decide they've had enough of the English connection, the same will apply. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,Obie Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:55 PM Honk Kong was given back to China over the objection of its people because it belonged to China. Ulster is a province of Ireland under foreigh rule. There will be no peace until Britain gets to Hell out. They are the source of the problem so can never be part of the solution. If Hitler had conquered Britain in WW2 and populated London with enough German citizens to have a majority , then gerrymandered the boundary and said the city proper would remain part of Germany even though he would withdraw from the rest of the country, would Englishmen accept that as the wishes of Londoners? The way that Ireland has been treated throughout history would shame all the devils in Hell! Obie |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Apr 05 - 11:17 PM Do many people visit Northern Ireland? When people from the rest of the U.K. or the Republic of Ireland speak of Northern Ireland, do they know what they're talking about? -Joe Offer, who has been to Armagh and Newcastle, but not to Belfast or Derry- |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 13 Apr 05 - 12:29 AM If the idea were put to a referendum then those in Northern Ireland would probably vote to stay as part of the UK given that the majority of the population is Protestant in belief. If the referendum was given to the whole of Ireland then the vote would almost certainly be for a united Ireland, but then there would be a lot of people in the North who would be very unhappy as they would be in the minority. As the whole of Irleand is part of the EU there is nothing to stop people crossing to the UK or any other part of the EU to take up employment. True there is a risk that many of the non Catholics might come to the UK to live but as they would be part of a united Ireland even under EU legislation they could not claim financial support from the Govt in the UK. The hardest part would be to get both sides of the divide to agree to non violence when a unification does occur. That would mean foreswearing the use of arms on both sides, the IRA and the extreme elements in the so called Loyalist parties. Recently Sinn Fein was pressured by the US Govt to bring the IRA into line and get rid of the weapons. The same pressure should be applied to both sides. Maybe then negotiations can begin to bring about a re-unification of Ireland. A huge amount of trust would be placed on both sides. As for who should chair the negotiations it should not be the UK or US Govt's. Instead a peacefull and neutral country should be used such as Norway, Sweden to chair the negotiations between the North and republic. There is too much political vested interest in both the UK and US goverments. The North's politicians should be acting on their own, working with the Republics politicians, the clergy on both sides should also be working towards the same aim. There should be commitments and support offered to those who do want to leave the North. The cost would not just be to the Republics government but also to the UK government. Due to the long and protracted history of Ireland the solutions will never be simple but if most people want a peacefull and united existance then there is hope that it will happen. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: dianavan Date: 13 Apr 05 - 01:33 AM Shanghaiceltic - This makes sense, "If the referendum was given to the whole of Ireland then the vote would almost certainly be for a united Ireland, but then there would be a lot of people in the North who would be very unhappy as they would be in the minority. As the whole of Irleand is part of the EU there is nothing to stop people crossing to the UK or any other part of the EU to take up employment. True there is a risk that many of the non Catholics might come to the UK to live but as they would be part of a united Ireland even under EU legislation they could not claim financial support from the Govt in the UK." So what if the Brits in the north would become a minority? That is much closer to the truth and the reason why their hold on power has been resented by the rest of Ireland. Since when does minority rule? By now many of those Brits are indeed Irish. Irish has a way of swallowing their colonizers. Wouldn't it be great if the people were so relieved to be united as one nation, that there was no need to seek revenge? I think that is a distinct possibility. As to the Brits who can't bear being a minority, let them return to England. My guess is that most would rather stay in Ireland and be considered Irish in a spirit of equality with their brothers and sisters to the south. I will continue to dream this dream. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Sorcha Date: 13 Apr 05 - 01:37 AM The referendum should only be in NI, and all over the age of 18 should be able to vote. A 'possible' but not maybe very good answer is that the Winners should subsidise the Losers who want to leave? Probably not....no easy answers. Never have been..... |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST Date: 13 Apr 05 - 02:54 AM Shambles if the protestants left NI to live in UK following any Govt action to unite Ireland. They would be able to claim financial help. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Apr 05 - 03:35 AM Dianavan, you said "by now many of those Brits are Irish.." They have been there longer than the whites in your country! They will soon be in a minority, and the usual democratic rules will apply. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,ceejay Date: 13 Apr 05 - 03:57 AM Its clear to what extent the media have coloured people's ideas on Northern Ireland. Some of the terminology is so confused one would think that the situation is akin to a Balkan scenario. But in fact the large majority of the population of the entire island have always (when asked for their opinions) wanted a united country. It was the frustration of this aspiration by Britain that brought about the 'Troubles' of the 1920s and the 1969 -94 eras. As JFK once remarked, 'those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable', or words to that effect. Yes, Ireland will one day be re-united and the vast majority of her people will live together just as amicably as they now mostly do. They won't necessarily all immediately love the idea but the difference will be that those extremists who might wish to continue to perpetrate violence for purposes of revenge will soon no longer have even the muted sympathies of their parent communities. Within the EU (and outside it) there are nations such as Belgium and Holland internally divided on religious, linguistic and/or ethnic lines. All of them had their problems, some still have, but compromise was eventually reached, even if it meant spending extra money that some consider to be 'wasted' on ensuring that all historical cultures were equally cherished. To get people in a 'realistic' frame of mind, a date should be set for the withdrawal of British control. This would eliminate the veto that Unionists, a minority of the population, have held with the support of the British govt, on progress towards a final settlement. A guarantee of dual citizenship for any who wish to retain a personal British connection extending down to those born up to the hand-over date should be part of the changeover, allowing the present generations and those born over the transition period time to adjust. Resettlement would, I predict , not be a large-scale issue, even in relation to Northern Ireland's small population of 1.5 mil. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 13 Apr 05 - 04:13 AM Do many people visit Northern Ireland? When people from the rest of the U.K. or the Republic of Ireland speak of Northern Ireland, do they know what they're talking about? Well I've never visited, I suppose because on the times I was able to get to any part of Ireland, Dublin was too convenient. I suppose the closest I have come is having had friends from both sides in NI but the troubles have never been a topic of conversation. The closest I remember was a conversation I had when we were giving 2 people originaly from Belfast lifts home from a session and it emerged one was a catholic and the other a protestant and one joked "we are swarn enemies" (they were good friends of course and had been regulars in the session for a couple of years). The other asked that we changed the subject at that point. The incident always reminds me of the song "Then There Were Roses" BTW. The bottom line is I know little about the situation and it is just a feeling of a past injustice(s) that tend me slightly towards the green. That said, I do believe the situation in NI is extremely complicated and am not convinced that it could be solved as simply as just "Brits out". As far as I see it, it is really up to the people of NI to strive for peace, to put years of bitterness and wrongs (on both sides) behind them and to ingnore those who seem to want to shit stir. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Dave Hanson Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:11 AM Well you've posed a good one there Curator and I largely agree with you, I don't know the answer but what do you think ? we know your reasons but you can't offer any solution either. eric |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM MANY PROTESTANTS LIVE IN THE NORTH OF IRELAND WHO ARE NOT UNDER BRITISH RULE WHY? DID BRITAIN ABANDON THEM, BECAUSE TO HAVE INCLUDED THEM THEY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE MAJORITY THEY ONLY TOOK SIX OF THE NINE COUNTIES OF ULSTER AND LEFT THREE OUT, AFTER ALL WHEN BRITAIN INVADED IRELAND THEY PLANTED THEM HERE.THE CURATOR WAS RIGHT IN SAYING OUT OF IRELAND, IRELAND IS IRELAND WEATHER IT IS NORTH SOUTH EAST OR WEST AND NO MATTER WHAT PART ANYBODY COMES FROM THEY ARE AS IRISH AS THE SOIL THEY WERE BORN ON |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Dave Hanson Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:02 AM Which must lead to the logical conclusion that it was mostly the Irish people killing and bombing each other not the English. It is a matter of historical fact the the Irish protestants in Northern Ireland treated the catholics worse than 2nd class citizens. eric |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:15 AM Dead on post, Grab - especially the last paragraph. Clinging to snapshots of history that are lost in the mists of time ("Ulster is a province of Ireland," etc) is completely unhelpful. There is a woman in Derry called Edith Sekules. Before fleeing to the UK from the Baltic region she lived under five successive sovereignties without moving house. I'm breaching no confidence, because it's in her autobiography, published a couple of years ago. What she must make of the constant wittering about nationality in Northern Ireland I often wonder. The outcome of an all-Ireland referendum would not be the no-brainer shanghaiceltic suggests. Across the republic there are whole swathes of people who have no interest whatsoever in a united Ireland and would see in it nothing but trouble. For politically aware northern Catholics, this indifference rankles more than anything. They take from it a deep-rooted sense of betrayal. But the fact is, it's easy for the republic to be paternalistic about a protestant minority almost too small to measure. Much more difficult to cope with a minority when it is 25 per cent - and probably predisposed to extreme belligerence. No wonder the republic wishes the north would go away. Certainly partition was forced on Ireland. In fact it was forced on Lloyd George too, by the Tories on whom he depended to stay in power. But forced or not, Ireland's delegates thought they had full plenipotentiary authority to sign the treaty on behalf of their country, and did so. To rule out any doubt, the treaty was also endorsed by the Irish parliament. Michael Collins had every reason to hope this was a big step towards a united Ireland. But instead of working for such an outcome, De Valera led his country into a ruinous civil war. His choice of course. But he set back the prospect of a united Ireland by at least a century. When the UK presided over the partition of India, population relocation was part of the equation. Rightly that is no longer acceptable, if only as a result of the Balkans experience. But it means the only future for Northern Ireland is reconciliation. If that is achieved, and the EU holds together, the question of national sovereignty will hardly matter in any practical sense. My instincts are often with the Curator. But my instincts are no basis for progress. So long as we see everything in black and white, or in terms of victory and defeat, we will be part of the problem, not part of the solution. My daughter and her chums at a Catholic secondary school in Belfast have never known a world in which Catholics were denied public housing and almost any kind of job, and in which electoral boundaries were gerrymandered to guarantee the protestant ascendancy. That happened in my lifetime, but not theirs. They have little interest in nationalism of any sort, and this indifference augurs well for the future. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Dave Bryant Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM I don't mind Eire having Northern Ireland back as long as the English can have Camden Town, Cricklewood, & Liverpool back ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:33 AM I know that going on about language can become an obsessional bore, but when people do use some ways of putting it, that tends to it undermines anything else they say, which is a pity, because very often what they are saying doesn't derseve to be undermined. And in these days of the Internet it really is pretty easy to get it right. Ulster is a province of Ireland under foreigh rule. No it isn't, it's a province made up of nine counties, and only six of them are in Northern Ireland. "the Brits in the north " They may be Unionists or Loyalists, or Protetants or Ulsterfolk or whatever - but you'll never hear them saying they are "Brits", however firm they are in their wish to remain linked with the neighbouring island. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: John MacKenzie Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM If I remember my Irish history in only 4 counties was there a majority vote to remain under British rule The other 2 counties were forced into this 'union' as it made more sense geographically. Not exactly a good reason was it? Giok |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: The Curator Date: 13 Apr 05 - 02:23 PM Forgive me for not making any contribution to the thread I started. I think it best to watch from the sidelines. Have to give it to you, makes great reading. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Big Tim Date: 13 Apr 05 - 03:17 PM So Britain is still in Ireland, and that after Peter K. telling us just the other day that, "The IRA had won". |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: PoppaGator Date: 13 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM As has been noted, NI is a relatively phony political construct, gerrymandered into existence almost a century ago: If all of Ulster (all nine counties) were to have a referendum, the Unionists would lose. They've always been in the minority province-wide. If voting were on a county-by-county basis, only three or four of the six current NI counties would remain outside the Republic. Granted, they would be the most populous and most industrialized areas, but what legitimacy and what chance of survivial would an even smaller "statelet" have? Irish Protestants probably had fairly legitimate fears about living in a united Ireland during most of the twentieth century, when the Catholic Church wielded inordinate influence over civil affairs in a theocratic young Republic. However, those days are clearly over. It probably is just a matter of time before the most belligerant adversaries grow old and die off. As the younger generations grow up and take their places in the adult world, much of the ancient hatred (along with memories of the well-founded reasons for some of that ill will) will be forgotten. I say, set a date! What was good for Hong Kong is certainly just as appropriate for Northern Ireland. And I agree that 25 years is probably too long to wait. If five years is too soon, certainly ten should be workable. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:42 PM It'll be one hell of a party when it happens. We are going to be treated to an extravaganza of music and fireworks unseen before. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:47 PM The fireworks could be interesting. Mind, I've always thought that that'd be a good way for the IRA and the rest to get rid of the weaponry - all the bullets being shot off into the air, before being blown up in a massive firworks display. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: dianavan Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:55 PM Keith A of Hertford - I totally agree that some Brits have been in Ireland longer than many of the "whites" in N. America. I fail to see, however, why your statement has anything to do with a democratic majority. Can you explain? Seems to me that by now they are all Irish and in a whole Ireland, the Brits would become a minority. Thats all. Something wrong with that? |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:44 AM Dianavan, I only meant that even in the 6 counties, the descendants of the settlers will become a minority because of demgraphy(emigration and a lower birth rate). |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: John MacKenzie Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:17 AM Dianavan, please explain what you mean when you call some people in the north "Brits" Giok |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Torctgyd Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:50 AM It strikes me as amusing that so many Americans (citizens of the USA) have, over the years, said 'Brits Out' but fail to consider that the US Government did to Hawaii exactly what the Brits did to the 6 counties. That is planted their own settlers there and then had a referendum to join the USA once the native Hawaiians were outnumbered 10:1. T |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: John MacKenzie Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:19 AM The reverse is true of Northern Ireland with the Republican population increasing faster than the Loyalists, another factor in the Loyalist's seige mentality. Giok |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Dave Bryant Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:46 AM That might change if the new pope was in favour of birth control . . . |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:52 AM Question: if British people are able to accept the presence of a community in Britain who consider themselves Irish and hold Irish citizenship (like me) what is so difficult about Irish people accepting that there is a community in Ireland that considers itself British? If there is a united Ireland (which I think is eventually likely) would the British community in Ireland have the same rights and freedom to express themselves that I enjoy in England? Just a thought. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Torctgyd Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:59 AM J'G'M, I thinking of the reasons for the 6 counties to stay in the UK&NI rather than the likely swing the otherway if the demographic changes continue as they have been doing. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Bunnahabhain Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:01 AM There are only three possible situations for the six provinces. 1. Part of the United Kingdom. 2. Part of Eire. 3. Total independance. Total independance would hand them over to those organised criminals, the IRA and 'loyalist' terrorists, and inflame a large proportion of the population. Eire doesn't want the six counties any more than the UK does. Even if Eire would take them, then the UK would probably still have to put up with most of the current problems, and they would be that much harder to deal with as they were now based totally in a forign country. Is any change of status going to improve life for the residents of the six counties, Eire or the UK? Can we sell them to the US? Bunnhabhain |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: John MacKenzie Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:36 AM Charlie Haughey will take them off your hands; for a price! G |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Paco Rabanne Date: 14 Apr 05 - 11:37 AM Lets get shot of these 'six provinces' then we can get on with pushing for an English Government. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: The Curator Date: 14 Apr 05 - 01:01 PM Folks as this thread is probably coming to the end of it's run, I would like to thank each and everyone who contributed. There were some great questions posed. Obviously I don't have the answers, just aspirations. I would guess that in the fullness of time what we will see is an International Europe where countries will still hold their culture, but not to the extent that they will fight with their neighbours to preserve it.As their neighours will be just like themselves, multi cultural.I have never seen so many different nationalites now living in my part of the North. I have no problem with that (just as long as they don't knock the rest of my teeth out)! Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:11 PM ...Britain isn't actually in Ireland, it's a few miles to the East of Ireland in the middle of the sea just off Europe, didn't you know that? |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: The Curator Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:58 PM Sorry Bruce, I have no sense of direction. You ear bumped into the Isle of Man |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:16 PM "Question: if British people are able to accept the presence of a community in Britain who consider themselves Irish and hold Irish citizenship (like me) what is so difficult about Irish people accepting that there is a community in Ireland that considers itself British? Since when have British people accepted the Irish living among them, Chris? I've been away for a while... Has this happened sometime within the last two weeks, perhaps? Odd thing about the second part of your statement.. I don't think the problem ever was about the Irish acceptance of a community who considered themselves British living here. I think the problem was the Irish acceptance of a community who not only called themselves British, but insisted you were, as well. "My daughter and her chums at a Catholic secondary school in Belfast have never known a world in which Catholics were denied public housing and almost any kind of job" That's nice, Peter K (Fionn), but tell her that in order for you to keep your rose-tinted glasses suitably polished, she should not apply for a job at Craigavon Borough Council, nor Lisburn, nor Ballymena, nor.... |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: dianavan Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:35 AM Giok - When I referred to Brits, I meant those who consider themselves English, rather than Irish. Sorry for the confusion. Maybe I should have said Protestants. One Ireland would mean a Catholic majority and a Protestant minority. Thats democracy for you. Then again, maybe One Ireland would be able to get past politics informed by religion. Its about time. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:43 AM Big Tim, the present IRA arose from the turmoil caused by civil rights demonstations that bagan in the mid-1960s when it was impossible, except by protest, to question the injustices of the Stormont regime. Those who complained to Westminster were simply referred back to the legitimate government of Northern Ireland (Stormont) which, of course, was responsible for the abuses. From 1970, the Provos detonated thousands of bombs and killed many police and military - and alas some civilians - all treated as criminal acts by the sovereign power. Those imprisoned have been released, they have seen off the RUC, they have seen an end to all the abuses that gave rise to the civil rights movement - and of course, they have kept their weapons. It seems quite reasonable to me that Brendy (whom I was quoting) should say they've won. Poppagator in wanting to add three more counties to NI for the purpose of a referendum, is still assuming people in the republic would vote for a united Ireland. It just isn't so. And in any case, so long as reconciliation and stability can be achieved north and south, within a strong EU, what does it matter whether government is from Dublin or Westminster? Tiocfaidh, discrimination festers where it can. But there is now good law to protect victims, whether the discrimination is because of race, sex, disability or religion. I suspect that some of what you hear is folklore but where inequality is suspected people should take action, if necessary pursuing claims to the European Court of Human Rights. Getting the evidence is never easy but persistence pays off. My brother took his case to the highest court in the UK (House of Lords) which found in his favour, creating new case law. As his union had not supported him, he took action against them too, and that case has now reached the ECHR in strasbourg. Much as I despise Blair, we are no longer talking about the Britain of the 19th Century, which treated elements of its own population abominably too. For many years - effectively since the Major-Reynolds declaration - the UK has had the complete confidence of the international community in its handling of NI. The US, the EU, the UN and the republic of Ireland itself all take the view that the UK is acting in good faith to achieve a fair settlement. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Grab Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:33 PM Obie, you might like to look more carefully at your history. Hong Kong was only ever *leased* from China. Rightly or wrongly, Ireland was conquered by the British by force of arms. Sure, we could revert to the shape the countries were before that - but that would be to deny that hundreds of years of history have happened between. In a similar vein, would you like all of northern France to be handed back to the British? because historically that was part of England and was only won by France through force of arms. As for solving the "Irish problem" by giving the choice to the Northern Irish - the UK government has given them two clear tries at self-rule (once in the 70s and once recently), and each time the only thing the Unionists and Republicans could agree was that they didn't want the responsibility and wouldn't sit down together. Maybe once Trimble, Paisley, McGuinness and Adams are all safely dead then we'll see a generation that can make rational decisions, but this lot simply can't. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: PoppaGator Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:00 PM Mention of the demographic/birthrate issue prompts me make this observation: The future belongs to those who get born! The more educated/sophisticated/"enlightened" factions of the Western world, if they care about survival and continuing influence, should keep this in mind. Those who are too busy with their "careers" to reproduce themselves are volunteering for the trashheap of history. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:14 AM 'Since when have British people accepted the Irish living among them, Chris?' Well, I can only speak for the last 48 years so I would guess it was sometime before that. Sure, there have been more difficult periods, particularly around the time of the Guildford and Birmingham bombings. But still, I would much rather be an Irish person living in England than a Palestinian living in Israel, a Moroccan 'guest worker' in Germany or an Afican asylum seeker living in Ennis, Co. Clare. You are quite right, of course, to point out that part of the problem stems from the Nationalist community having a 'British' identity forced on them gainst their will by the majority and the British State. However, how long is it since Gerry Adams last said that a United Ireland would be 'Socialist, Catholic and Gaelic'? Let's not forget either that Sinn Fein was founded by a notorious Anti-Semite (Arthur Griffith). Ireland since the Republic's secession from the UK is not a society that has a particularly good record when it comes to accepting people from other cultures and traditions, certainly in the countryside and the small towns. Look at how Irish travellers are treated in their own country, for instance. I don't see why Britain 'should' be in Ireland apart from the fact that a lot of people living in Ireland consider themselves British. Still, by that logic I suppose Earl's Court should be part of Australia. I am, however, starting to get a little jaded by the insistence of people from one of the most affluent countries in the world on considering themselves as victims. That isn't to belittle the suffering of anyone who has been affected, directly or indirectly, by what has been happening since 1969/69 or even further back. Nor does it excuse any of the injustices that have been suffered as a result. But anyone who wants to be accepted anywhere (which I assume you would like to be) needs to occasionally consider whether that acceptance is made easier or more difficult by constantly drawing attention to the chip on your shoulder. Especially when, to be blunt, there are plenty of people in the world who have it a lot worse. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:15 AM ...And before anyone starts bitching about anonymous 'Guests', that was me. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: kendall Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:27 AM I don't want to take sides here, not with our history, but I wonder, if the people of Northern Ireland, and the people of the Falkland Islands were to leave, where would they go? How would they live? |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:06 AM If, as you claim I so rightly point out, Chris B, that "that part of the problem stems from the Nationalist community having a 'British' identity forced on them gainst their will", where does the rest of the problem lie, and lets see if we can't resurrect the old 'Chicken & Egg' parallax to try and explain it? Jaded, as you may well be, about hearing 'victim' trips coming from those living in our "affluent" countries, Chris please try to remember that it was because of that very point, that few thought the injustices brought upon the Irish people could happen in the first place. People still think Apartheid was a purely South African concept, Chris B. Could never happen here, Chris. Not in a million years! Don't suppose it did then? Or does still, eh Peter K (Fionn)? What does 'Folklore' metamorphose into, once you take the rose-tinted specs off? Anyway, Chris B, I would like the date and the appropriate references to where "Gerry Adams last said that a United Ireland would be 'Socialist, Catholic and Gaelic'"? Maybe in your next life, you might be born again as a pair of rose-tinted glasses. It's getting to be a fashion statement, these days... Wherever they felt like kendall, I would imagine. And much the same as before, I would further to hope.... |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,p o neill Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:28 PM Tiocfaidh, have you ever considered a job in politics? Its good to talk. . . . |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: dianavan Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:52 PM kendall - Why should they leave? Why can't they accept majority rule in one, united Ireland? If they can't accept that, maybe they should find another country where they (the minority) will be in a position of social and political power. Doesn't seem that hard to figure. Hey, I know! They could convert to Judaism and move to Israel. They would be in the majority in their own little nation surrounded by a majority of Muslims. Just like home! |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: robomatic Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:58 PM Brilliant |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:52 PM What does 'Folklore' metamorphose into, once you take the rose-tinted specs off? Well you tell me, Tiocfaidh. It was you who made the allegations about those specific councils. What proportions of Catholics and Protestants do they employ? If you don't know, perhaps you'd find out and let us know. All NI employers have been obliged to document the ratio for years, so they should be able to tell you quite easily. Dianavan, one reason "they" don't accept "majority rule in one, united Ireland" is that one united Ireland does not exist. By the time it does, the so-called loyalists may well accept majority rule, because there will have been a sea-change in attitudes on both sides for a united Ireland to have been achieved. I notice that ministers in the republic's government are now interfering directly in the campaigning presently underway in NI constituencies in the run-up to the UK general election on May 5. They are hinting at the idea that they might launch a campaign to win popular support for a 32-county Ireland, but my reading of this is that it is no more than a cynical ploy by the governing Fianna Fail party. They are seriously panicked by the prospect of Sinn Feinn becoming electorally strong on both sides of the border, and seemingly will stop at nothing to prevent it. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:35 AM If you want to deny that religious discrimitation exists in the NI workforce, why don't you produce the facts to support your viewpoint, Peter K (Fionn). Others have made the specific allegations about those Councils, and they are well documented... Go fetch... |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:51 AM Tiocfaidh, obviously as I have already said, discrimination exists wherever it can. What you're talking about, and what I question, is systematic, institutionalised discrimination. Unless you can support your claim with evidence or sources, I'm inclined to think you've swallowed some idle gossip. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:30 AM "Unless you can support your claim with evidence or sources, I'm inclined to think you've swallowed some idle gossip." - 18 Apr 05 - 06:51 AM "Getting the evidence is never easy" - 15 Apr 05 - 07:43 AM Make up your mind, will you! I take it you know where CAIN is.... Go do your own leg work Peter K (Fionn), and stop pretending everything's hunky dory. (and do something about your identity crisis, will you...?) |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:48 PM Tiocfaidh: on the assumption that you are not being deliberately stupid, I will try to explain. In the first quote of mine that you've reproduced above, I was talking about statistical data that all NI employers have been obliged to maintain for many years. I made that perfectly clear. In the second I was talking about evidence that the law had been broken in a specific individual case. That too I made explicitly clear. There need be not the slightest inconsistency in taking one view about the former and another about the latter. I hope that's helped you to understand. Nothing is ever hunky dory. We live in the real world. What identity crisis? |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:44 PM So, then Peter K (Fionn), (... as he ignores the glaring alter-ego in parentheses....), when did it all end then; this systematic, institutionalised discrimination of yours? And where is this statistical data that is all ready? Have they stopped vetting job candidatures through the Loyal Orders, then? Can you provide statistical data for this? Was there ever any statistical data to begin with? Can false negatives be proven? Peter K (Fionn) If the real world you claim you live in is not hunky dory, imagine how imperfect it is for the rest of us, who experience reality at a grass-roots level. And as you said yourself, unless you are being naturally stupid, discrimination exists where it can. And where it can, Peter K (Fionn), the law doesn't witness. I never thought I would have to explain this to anyone Peter K (Fionn); it's like Collusion... have we not beaten this subject to death before? Instead of trying to wax nostalgic, anecdotal and troll-like, and trying to sweep the past and present under that carpet of yours in the process, perhaps you could account for all the non hunky-doryishness that exists in your reality, and tell me who still is the guardian of bastionism where you live. Things are changing. That much we can all agree on. It would not have happened without the Glorious Armed Struggle, as I'm sure we can all agree on as well. Tiocfaidh an samhradh (.. cos the day's nearly there...) |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: ard mhacha Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:52 AM Peter, Can you be serious, discrimination no longer exsists in in the sick six?, you keep providing the laughs, and I will continue to read your profound thoughts. |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: John MacKenzie Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:41 AM I agree that it is almost certain things would be much worse for the republican movement, had the armed struggle not taken place. However in view of some of the terrible outrages that were committed during that struggle, I think that the epithet 'glorious' is inappropriate in this context. Giok |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:00 AM God save our gracious Queen, Long live our noble Queen, God save the Queen! Send her victorious, Happy and Glorious, Long to reign over us; God save the Queen In light of the British troops conduct in Iraq I take it the 'glorious' above will be removed then? |
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Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ? From: GUEST,Milo Hollingsworth Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:14 AM It's about time Ireland was able to write its own history Hurrah, I say! |
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