BS: US Universities Best in World?

Subject: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Claymore
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 04:38 PM

On my way home from work a local radio station was quoting a British newspaper (London Times?) that they had completed a study and a ranking of the top 200 universities in the world. They had apparently ranked Harvard first, but Oxford some where behind U. Cal at Berkely and a couple of others. They stated that there was only one French and one German university on the entire list, but quite a number of US state universities, some from Oz and a few Asian schools. Can anybody from Great Britain verify this, and provide a list? It would be a hoot if old Europe is falling behind, while the New World, the Third World, the US, and those they dispise, pull ahead in, of all things, Academia and Education. Also if you can, include the methodology, and the statistical tests of significance, if they are included. Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 04:41 PM

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:L9bfdzu0nBAJ:www.thes.co.uk/worldrankings/+ranking+of+the+top+200+universities+in+the+world&h

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 04:44 PM

Download full-colour version
Times Higher World University Rankings PDF (331K)

It is on Here

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 04:49 PM

"despise".

Rankings like this are ridiculous. The experiences are completely different at Oxford and at Harvard, or at the University of Barcelona. The best education ever was sitting with Socrates half naked sitting in the dust of the Athenian marketplace.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 04:59 PM

Did these US universities produce the people who voted in the lunatic?

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 05:05 PM

damn, Peter! Did you really study with Socrates?! I wouldn't have thought you much older than, like, fifty or so.

Which half did you have to get naked?

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 05:10 PM

...and I just deleted an email offering me pictures of naked college girls. If I'd only known they were students of Socrates!

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: mooman
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:09 PM

Top 100 European Universities here

Although both of mine are in the list, knowing a lot of universities through my work this looks highly suspect and I wonder what the criteria were. There are some very highly regarded institutions way down the list and a fair few that are generally considered poorer higher up.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:18 PM

During my time at university I had the pleasure of having a fellow student from America, a delightful man called Dan. He did his third year of a four year course by joining our first year

Enough said I think

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 08:25 PM

ranking is rank...good schools everywhere. Criteria for rankings differ widely.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 08:47 AM

I call all of these rankings "bottom line" rankings. It's an industry, like testing, set up to profit off education, hence the real purpose of the ranking being the "bottom line" profit motive.

In the US, higher education is now done according to a business model that is grossly inappropriate to the education of human beings, the same way that in the US, health care is dispensed (and often withheld)according to the same business model.

US higher ed isn't about educating people, and it hasn't been for a really long time. It's the research & development arm of the US government and US business.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:48 AM

The purpose of a university is to produce well rounded citizens. Can't think of any, right off hand.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: mg
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 12:13 PM

I don't know if it has the best universities or not. I know it has (at least Washignton State) an excellent community college system, and there are very good technical colleges throughout the country. It has what at least used to be an outstanding land grant system, and I work for one of those universities...tending toward teacher education, agriculture, engineering etc. Oh goodness, preparing people for the job market..what a concept...far better they should spend four years learning how to argue with people about everything. mg

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 10:15 PM

Who is the Genius that came up with this? Sure is'nt it known the world over that Irish universities are producing the smartest people.
Seven letters after your name and seven pints of Guinness after your breakfast and ........................ what was the question?

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:08 PM

"In the US, higher education is now done according to a business model that is grossly inappropriate to the education of human beings"

Same thing happening here (Canada).

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:46 PM

What a patently absurd idea for a survey. Objectivity is impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 04:28 AM

Actually I have to be partisan about this but British are best - but the Japanese can make them smaller and cheaper.........

please sing happy birthday to that joke - it is 100 today.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 10:28 PM

I looked at that survey.

My grad school University came in 88th, something like 0.7 behind TCD.

For whatever that's worth.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Nerd
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 11:59 PM

Would someone mind posting the list itself? You have to be a registered member to get the pdf.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: GUEST,ragdall
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 01:43 AM

"Would someone mind posting the list itself? You have to be a registered member to get the pdf."

Here is an article from the Times Online (UK) I hope that helps.

rags

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:52 AM

Thanks ragdall: the Times article was helpful.

Lists such as this are always highly suspect, since they're often done rather superficially and without credible reporting of the criteria used. I'm not familiar with The Times Higher Education Supplement (THES) cited here, but the Times article does give some information on source and criteria.

A survey of academics for determining who has the best school should be considered about as valid as a survey of National Hockey League players about who has the best Hockey team, perhaps – not to imply that either is invalid, only that understanding the source does limit the legitimate uses that can be made of the result. This survey probably has about as much legitimacy for use by universities in support of their public relations and grant applications, and in some cases public funding, as the numerous similar ones available; and it can reasonably be cited in pub debates about justifications for national pride (or lack thereof).

The Times article indicates that academics were asked to name the "best institutions in the fields that they felt knowledgeable about." This is the least credible part of the published result, since no information is given (in the article) about how they compiled what were undoubtedly disparate results based on individuals in a variety of specialties into a single overal ranking. The Shanghai Jiao Tong survey specific to research universities, cited in the next to last paragraph of the Times article, would potentially be more "meaningful" on this basis. (It's very difficult, though not always impossible, to compile meaningful results from a survey in which respondents are allowed to choose which questions to answer.)

The limited info given doesn't differ much from numerous other recent such that I've seen (Which does boost it's credibility, perhaps?).

John

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 02:20 PM

Speaking from a British perspective I can agree with the claim that "US Universities are the best in the world"

Always assuming that "The World" in question is the same one described in Baseball's "World Series"

CHEERS

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: mandoleer
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:51 PM

I agree with Nigel that US universities are the best in the US....
As for ranking of educational establishments, the positions are normally determined by numbers reaching certain academic levels. Fair enough in one way. However, this doesn't take into account the material that diffeent establishments have to work with. Harvard is bound to have better academic results than Bloggsville University, Wyoming, because more of the 'top' students will go to Harvard. Bloggsville may in fact do a marvellous job of taking sows' ears and producing silk purses, but the value added isn't taken into account when the rankings are done. The same occurs in the UK with Oxford and Cambridge. I suppose the money factor comes in a bit with both the Harvard / Oxbridge intake, but very often the monied ones do have brains - otherwise the money would run out. (Doesn't always apply - you need a lot of money to become US President, but seemingly you can get away without much in the brain line.)

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 10:59 PM

you need a lot of money to become US President.

Yes, but it's mostly other people's money. Of course, one needs to have a bit of money to attract the "right" other people...

It does seem that a few terms as a Senator or Representative on the way up always seems to provide enough money too...

According to the Times article, this was a "survey of academics," which is probably less "authoritative" than some other methods of ranking. For those actually looking for a university, Yale University Press used to publish a guide to colleges and universities that described and ranked them based on surveys of undergraduates. Mostly US schools, of course, but with mention of a few major ones elsewhere. I don't know if they still publish it, but some years back it produced some interesting tidbits, such as the year that:

The suicide rate (per 1,000 entering freshmen) at Cal Tech exceeded the academic failure rate (per 1,000 entering freshmen) at MIT.

Of course this was many years ago.

A trend that can be either encouraging or discouraging is that many of the "top" U.S. universities now approach or exceed the 50% foreign student enrollment levels, particularly for advanced degrees. While some lament that "we're teaching foreigners everything so they can take it all elsewhere," others lament "they never come home after we pay for their education."

John

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 11:22 PM

Notice - NO Irish and No Welch?

Is it.... primarily the English speaking countries which gain the notice.....from English speaking periodicals?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Requiring an immediate abdominal surgery in Bombay, India would you wait for emergency air-lift back to the UK .... or go under-the-knife a of dark-skinned-heathen?

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 03:56 AM

Gargoyle -

I'm not sure where they get the education, but the Irish seem to be one of the "favorites" for outsourcing programming and other computer related "designish" stuff for a number of U.S. companies.

Unfortunately, perhaps, they don't give any of the "consumer support" business to them. It goes mostly to Africa, where the tech-support specialists apparently speak only Swahili. (At least I've seldom been able to understand one of them.)

And re your fine print: there's a thriving business in med schools in several countries where students can get a (barely) accredited medical certificate quite a lot cheaper than at domestic schools. If you need to consult an endocrinologist right here in downtown Wichita Kansas U.S.A you almost need to speak Urdu right now.

John

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Claymore
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 10:19 AM

Thanks to you all for verifying the initial reports.

It has never been easy to rank anything other than a pure physical contest where someone comes in first. And now that isn't easy with the steroid abuse scandals etc. However, it does make my point in a general way; that US universities are actually doing an excellent job of educating the leaders of tomorrow (comments of the rich people buying their way through to the contrary). Even if the foreign students are coming here to get an education, it is usually in a specialty not offered anywhere else.

For example, the West Virginia University is not particularly noted for most of its programs, but when I was attending my Master's classes in Safety and Environment Management through the school of Engineering and Mineral Sciences, I noticed three different kinds of people attending the school. The School deals mostly with Mineral extraction, with the WV Bubbas and folks from Montana etc. attending the Mining school programs, the Arabs, Nigerians and Texans attending the Oil programs, and the Sierra Club types attending the Safety and Environmental classes with me. While the University itself was insular in most of its programs, this school was a virtual UN of the mineral extraction and recovery process, and supports many of the other programs at the University. And they weren't going to England, French or Germany to get their credentials. I don't think any of the graduates were concentrating on being "well-rounded" and with the exception of the Arabs, none of them appeared "well-heeled", yet I do believe that their experiences there bode well for the US in the future. Even if you want to try and hate the Americans later in life, you will still remember the folks you went to school with.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 12:53 PM

And where does this West Virginia school rank in the top 200? Top 10? Top 50? Top 1,000?

Keep gloating Clamore, but don't look at the stats too closely.

If you look at the US schools on list of 200, won't you find the majority by far are in "LIBERAL", "Blue states"? And if you go to a county level, the counties which contain the schools, won't you find that almost none of them had a majority vote for the current "government:?

Obviously there is a close correlation between having good schools and NOT voting for George W. Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 02:42 PM

Well for a start you need a Geology department that can work according to a timetable beyond 6,000 years.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: mg
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 03:47 PM

I think Germany is supposed to have a good technical education system. But I don't know for sure. mg

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: frogprince
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:34 PM

Inny American whut don't think that are Unaversidies are the best shud lurn to luve there contry or leeve it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Claymore
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 09:04 AM

Actually JtS, I stated the WVU is not a noted university and I believe it wasn't on the list, though I have yet to see a complete list itself. My point was, that even second tier or third tier universities are attracting foreign students to this country, and I believe that is a good thing.

But, off hand and without seeing the entire list, I would say your second conclusion may be wrong, as many of the universities such as U VA and UT are clearly in red states and many of the foreign universities are located in countries that so far have supported the Iraq conflict, such as Great Britian and Australia. That does not mean the universities themselves back the war, as most universities are isolated pockets of liberalism even in the red states.

As for "voting for the current government", they are supposed to learn that at the university they are attending...

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 02:36 PM

Universities in other countries attact foreign students. I had a room mate from Hong Kong for a while back in Canada a lot of foreign students went to my university and still do, that doesn't prove anything. Universities from other countries even attract Americans. At least one of those Americans went on to become President.

Don all of the US Universities mentioned article, ALL of the US Universities in the top ten, are in Blue States, Harvard, MIT, Yale, Stanford. Looking at the criteria I really doubt that U VA or UT outranked the best universities in Germany or France. If they do, I'd say that there is something wrong with the poll. But that is obvious isn't. The poll is more of popularity/name recognition contest than anything else.   

US Universities have better reputations mostly because they have more money. They are larger and work harder on PR. If that is a source of pride for you, there really isn't anytheing wrong with that. But it doesn't mean that Europe is "Falling behind" the third world as you implied in yor first post.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Claymore
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 01:39 PM

University of Virginia, the "Harvard of the South, the school which kicked Teddy Kennedy out for cheating, so he had to go to Harvard as a second choice, not in the top ten? Come on Jack, you've been North way too long. And since the conservative movement has had it's greatest growth in the universities, my point still stands. Just 'cause the university is located in a blue state doesn't mean the students are, or will not be returning to a red state, which is where the jobs and the future lies...

And Jack, the criteria had far more to do with difficulty in admissions (high test scores, and recommendations, and the prize winning professors etc.) than any PR.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM

Claymore, we're in Alabama. JtS was in Georgia for about four years before I met him, and we've been living in Georgia and Alabama for the two and a half years we've been together (with the exception of six months in Michigan). If you want to think of that as "North", I guess that's your business. In terms of US geography, we tend to think of it as "South".

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:11 PM

Why not indeed?

On this page top 25 you will find a ranking of US Reseach Universities.
Look at 2004. You will see U VA at 38th. I find it unlikely that the 38th ranked University in the US would find its self in the top ten of an international poll. Are you saying that you think the foreign evaluaters are smarter than the American ones? :-D

Also on that list you will find the first solidly "Red State" University at number 21, The University of Texas at Austin. Anyone who knows anything about Texas knows that Austin is way less "conservative" than the rest of the state.

I'll grant your point that US has superior to foreign countries if you will accept mine that the areas that vote Democrat have superior Universities to those which don't.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Claymore
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:16 PM

Although research universities are not the same as teaching universities, I accept your point as most universities have a more liberal outlook that the surrounding countryside, but the fact that years ago you would never have had a Young Republicans club on ANY campus, and now they abound, makes my point. Take a look at where the National Merit Scholarship students are going and see the future... (Go to the bottom of your scroll list and check the National Merit students march from 1999 to 2003; watch U of FLA climb to second and U of Texas to 4th, with either doubling the total number of U of Cal-Berkeley and U of Mich-AnnArbor TOGETHER. U of Okla has the same number as MIT! The game is on!

And lovely Carol, I'm glad you moved from a blue state to a red state where the jobs are... ;)

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:27 PM

Jobs, Claymore? Most of the jobs around here that pay any more than minimum wage have been shipped over to India.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:21 AM

The US have three degrees BS, MS and PHD..................







Thats Bullshit
More Shit and
Piled High and Deep.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:03 PM

Claymore -

The NMSC thing should consider that when the scholarships were first introduced ca. 1956 or so, they were a purely "need based" award. You picked your school, got admitted, paid every last cent you and/or your family had, and the scholarship paid the rest.

With an early NMSC scholarship, you could go to any school you could get into.

Since a few of us "broke the bank" in the early years by choosing the "best" schools (which also happen mostly to be incredibly expensive) the NMSC has imposed maximums on the amount of the awards, so it is necessary for students to consider whether they can afford their school of choice even with an NMSC scholarship. The result is that many, especially the scholarship winners, now settle for less expensive schools than previously.

The list of schools chosen by winners of the scholarships will generally be "best in a price range," but the selection isn't just "best of all possible schools" for most.

John

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: Claymore
Date: 04 May 05 - 05:44 PM

Just got back to this John, and as the Merit Scholarship list shows some four hundred were going to Harvard, which was in First place. That U of Fla and Ut were in their positions (2nd and 4th) shows that while the Merit Scholarships may have been "need based", it hasen't slowed down the steady march of the state universities past the Ivy League, and the Northeastern elite. And if you examine the lists you will see that there is no "bargain basement" hunting in the school list. Many of the more liberal schools are in the same price range as UF and UT. That UFs number is about FOUR time more than U of Mich - Ann Arbor, and they are within the same price range, shows that your point simply makes mine.

Subject: RE: BS: US Universities Best in World?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 May 05 - 08:00 PM

Claymore -

I think you missed the point. The Merit Scholarships WERE ORIGINALLY need based with no limit. They NOW ARE CAPPED at fixed maximum amounts, and many of the "named" ones have been lowering the caps.

The earliest Merit scholars could go anywhere, give them all their money, and the scholarship paid whatever else was needed (sort of). Now, even Merit scholars have to look at whether they can afford the difference, because the maximum they can get from the "scholarship" is about $1K or so per year. (I haven't checked recently.)   That doesn't make much of a dent in the $20,000 to $30,000 estimated for the total cost of a year at Harvard or Yale, but it can be a healthy chunk of what most state schools will cost.

WHEN MERIT SCHOLARSHIPS WERE NEED BASED, the winners were encouraged to go to "the best" they could get admitted to. In the early days, it was rare for any school to refuse admission to any Merit scholar (although even then it did happen).

NOW THAT MERIT SCHOLARSHIPS ARE CAPPED, even Merit scholars have to consider whether they can afford "the best," and increasing numbers of them do choose "cheaper" (but usually very good) places.

The emphasis has changed, in the NMSC program as in a number of other aid programs, from the original notion of making sure that "the brightest" go to the "best schools" to helping assure that more of "the brightest" go to "better schools." And the kids are catching on to the shift in emphasis in growing numbers. (One might also say they're just being more realistic.) There is also a very active "industry" now that seems to have increasing influence, of "guidance corporations" who make the real $$ costs more evident to entering students (and their parents) than we (or our parents) knew some few years ago.

All you can really say about a Merit (or any other) scholarship is that it allows a student to go to a little bit more expensive school than might otherwise be affordable for that student and his/her family. It doesn't guarantee they can afford what might be their "first choice," and more of them see that now, in time to make more "reasonable" school selections.

John