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BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
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Subject: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:28 PM Why does there seem to be such a wealth of articles on this topic. Time for another one. Again apologies for blue clicky problems. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9926 |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:12 PM pause..................and refresh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Amos Date: 22 Apr 05 - 06:58 PM Here's the link to Martin's chosen article, for anyone who wants to read it. But it just tripe -- one after another huge airy generalizations, circular in reasoning and full of the sort of hatred Martin is fond of attributing to others. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: michaelr Date: 22 Apr 05 - 07:17 PM Go away, Martin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Ebbie Date: 22 Apr 05 - 07:57 PM When a person doesn't have a hope of reasoning, the only recourse s/he has is in utilizing other people's platitudes. Kind of like Gdubya. No wonder dubya has such fans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST Date: 22 Apr 05 - 09:34 PM It's not anti the race, it's anti the policies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Peace Date: 22 Apr 05 - 09:36 PM Seems like it's a way to up the anti. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: dianavan Date: 23 Apr 05 - 12:04 AM yawn |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM [bleep - for antisocial behavior]Amos, you live on tripe. Enjoy these articles. There are so many more out there that are from credible sources and give you the feedback you just have a problem with. Maybe I will start doing 1 a week. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Amos Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:22 PM AIry generalizations, circular in logic and filled with hatred, MG. Did you know that being so hate-filled actually harms your health? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:52 PM Feel fine, Amos, and am in perfect health. I don't hate everyone. Just a few here, actually. Others here I really like. What's your next angle? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Ebbie Date: 23 Apr 05 - 07:49 PM There are two kinds of people in the world, they say: one kind gets ulcers and the other kind gives them. The kind that gives them can't help it, though. It must be sad to be so at the mercy of one's bile. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,observer Date: 23 Apr 05 - 08:34 PM Martin, you twit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: M.Ted Date: 23 Apr 05 - 09:17 PM Posting on Shabbas? Not like you, Martin-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: dianavan Date: 23 Apr 05 - 09:50 PM Like I've said before, I don't think Marti is a Jew. He just likes to whip up anti-Semitism. If it weren't for him, it wouldn't even be a subject on Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Bobert Date: 23 Apr 05 - 10:58 PM Yer right, d, Martin isn't a Jew... He's a died-in-the-wool Bushite... |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Amos Date: 23 Apr 05 - 10:59 PM The old adage is that you can't get the truth from an angry man. And Martin, sorry to say, is always acting angry. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 24 Apr 05 - 03:16 PM Undefined classes. I would vote for (almost) anyone except GWB. Including a bunch of Republicans, and I think the bait-and switch war agaist Iraq as a response to terrorism is dishonest. Does this make me left-wing? And if so, does that make me anti-semitic? If an anti-semite loves apple pie and his mother and votes straight Neo-con does it make him left-wing? Folk Wisdom: It's not a good idea to rassle with a hog. He won't know if you win, you get shit all over you, and the damned swine loves it. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Raedwulf Date: 24 Apr 05 - 03:39 PM Others here I really like. Wow! Now THAT is news. Martin actually likes someone here? I can't imagine who, cos I've yet to see him say a good word about anyone. Scoop of the decade, of course, would be finding someone that likes Martin. Even someone that has a good word to say about him... |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: M.Ted Date: 24 Apr 05 - 04:31 PM There are a couple things about Martin I like--assuming of course he is who and what he says he is--the fact that he seemed to keep Shabbas being one--that he was dedicated to his family, another, and that he played bass--all reflective of some inner goodness-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Ebbie Date: 24 Apr 05 - 04:34 PM Ah, M. Ted- he plays banjo too. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Bill D Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:40 PM to briefly address the subject: There certainly are folks who harbor anti-semitic feelings..on both the left and the right....just as there are folks of various types who are racially prejudiced. They can be spotted fairly easily in some cases, not so easily in others. The problem comes with the "if you aren't for us, you're against us!" attitude. Criticizing a Jew or a Jewish policy is not the same thing as criticizing Jewishness or Judaism, and sadly, there are folks who have such a big chip on their shoulders that they can't...or won't bother...to tell the difference. Perhaps it's a bit of "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" notion. I rather think that a better metaphor here would be the "Boy who cried "wolf" story." |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM Oh, but I am a Jew. To the truly ignorant like many here who don't know much about Jews, reformed Jews observe Shabbos different than Orthodox. This does not necessarily make them bad Jews for driving a car, using electric lights, wearing shoes, etc. The Reformed Judaism movement is just not as extreme. By the way, I am taking a break right now from helping my wife prepare for the Paaover seder we are having for 10 family & friends. If anyone wants to know more about Passover, please PM me and I will tell you about this special holiday. You too, dianavan, as I feel you are truly one of the most uninformed here about Judaism, amonst some other things. I only get angry with morons, Amos. You should know that by now firsthand. Yes, I play bass and banjo as well as guitar. Sing, also. Sometimes as a solo, sometimes doing tenor harmonies with groups. Raedwulf, I actually have quite a few friends here who I PM with a lot behind the scenes. Needless to say, they are not any of the elitist, pompous, arrogant, far left wing socialists who hang out here. They know who they are and realize that I am on to their BS. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:50 PM Biil D, we cross posted. Probably true to some extent, but the point that I have been trying to make is that way too many use that type of thinking you describe as a veil for their anti-semitism. To the majority of Jews, criticizism of Israel is generally about anti-semitism. Besides, who has time to keep diseecting that criticism and catagorize it as to which bucket of criticism to put it in? How do you tell the truthful criticism from the deceit or excuse to hate? That's my views. Discuss it or dodge the facts as you see fit. Denial was expected on my end. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Bill D Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:13 PM "...who has time to keep diseecting that criticism and catagorize it as to which bucket of criticism to put it in?" we all do! It is too important to allow mistakes. If someone hides their anti-semitic views too well to tell for sure, then the rest of us just have to do the best we can to sort out the best POLICIES! In the Middle East right now, there is enough blame and bad decisions on BOTH sides to go around. There ought to be a way for decent Jews and well-meaning Palestinians to share and live quiet lives...but there are hot-heads on BOTH sides dedicated to making sure no peace is achieved without their side "winning". I don't have to be anti-Jewish OR anti-Arab to see that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:17 PM Winning? This is not a game. This is survival. That's what you don't get. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Bill D Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:23 PM um-hmm...we will keep killing each other for the principle of "survival"...and when there are 14 left on each side? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Bill D Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:30 PM (you know a bit about country/mountain music, Martin...remember "The Martins and the Coys?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST Date: 24 Apr 05 - 07:20 PM Jews in Porn An early version of an article at www.lukeford.com [huge copy-paste article removed- - Note- the link takes you to some very explicit porn. Be warned. The article seems to have been taken from http://christianparty.net/porn.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Azizi Date: 24 Apr 05 - 07:37 PM Is this article for real?! The entire article is a stinkin bunch of BS. I am particularly incensed with pornographer Seymour Butts' [Butts??!!] comments on Blacks.. Butts needs his ass kicked for those comments. I mean- can he be more sterotypical? Puleeze! [said with a great deal of sacasm]. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Rabbi Zedek Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:10 PM Oh, but I am a Jew. To the truly ignorant like many here who don't know much about Jews, reformed Jews observe Shabbos different than Orthodox. This does not necessarily make them bad Jews for driving a car, using electric lights, wearing shoes, etc. The Reformed Judaism movement is just not as extreme. And therein lies the proof of the pudding that MG is not what he claims to be. He often claims to be a "reformed Jew" and a member of the "Reformed Judaism movement." If that were truly the case, MG would know that there is no such thing as a "reformed Jew" or "Reformed Judaism movement." If MG were actually what he claims to be, he would know that he is a "Reform Jew" and a member of the movement of "Reform Judaism." An actual Reform Jew would not make that mistake. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: robomatic Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:27 PM "Oh the Martins and the Coys they were reckless mountain boys...." Wish they were with us tonight. Rev Zedek, get a grip. Maybe MG was referring to past tense and he's seen the light and gone Messy-antic. Those folks think they're Jewish AND have their own personal And who's to say they couldn't use a little more 'reformin' anyway? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: M.Ted Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:35 PM Pull that "GUEST" post, please, clones--it is a sickening bit of anti-semitic garbage, an has no place here--
[done- if Joe wants to delete it all, he may] |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Bobert Date: 24 Apr 05 - 09:03 PM Yo, Rabbi Zedick, Yer right as rain! MG ain't no Jew at all... He is a brownshirt Bushite... That is who he worships... Has a little Bushite santuary in his house with Bush's picture over a table with candles and he goes there several times a day to pray to Bush... That's expalins why Martin is so nasty. He sees the nastiness in Bush and wants to measure up and I'll give Martin credit here... He comes close... Hey, I ain't gonna say no dumbass stuff like Martin in sayin' "Some of my best friends are Jews" but I will say that many of my friends are Jews and I'd be ashamed to to tell them about Mudcat (and Martin in particular) fir fear of offending these friends... Some folks just don't get just the damage one can do to a cause until they open their mounths... I'd like to enter Martin as "Exibit A" into evidence... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Bill D Date: 24 Apr 05 - 09:09 PM Oh, I'm convinced Martin is of Jewish hetitage. I have no reason to doubt the general facts he lets drop about his life. It's what he doesn't say about how he got his online 'attitude' that intrigues me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Bobert Date: 24 Apr 05 - 09:15 PM Yeah, like I said, Bill.... It's his "brownshirtism" and his loyality to Bush, no matter what Bush says that tells me that Martin has moved on from his Jewish past... How or why it happened, while intrigueing, is of less concernt to me than the obvious: the guy is brainwashed... |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Frankham Date: 24 Apr 05 - 10:29 PM The right to exist is the birthright of everyone. There is no master race. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST Date: 25 Apr 05 - 03:53 PM Thanks to the Rabbi for the post on Gibson's ignorance about Reform Judaism. Whenever he shows his ignorance by saying he's a "reformed" Jew, he reminds me of the distinctly Christian concept of being "born again." |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:17 PM For anyone who believes marvin gibbon is who he says he is, I've got a bridge I want to sell you. He doesn't play anything but jaws harp and he knows nothing about contemporary american music. I don't understand why people believe his feeble attempts to pretend he is musically informed. You people who believe he is who he says he is are all pretty gullible, I think. He's been challenging the big boys for years. Oh, wish him a happy birthday on June 16th He'll be thirty one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Bill D Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:32 PM oh, piffle, anonymous one...he has enough info and depth that it is obvious he knows music. Doesn't change the fact that he's also tedious. Why not keep the criticisms relevant? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:42 PM Actually it's the Martins and the Goys. Thanks for the opportunity to show your true colors. Reform or reformed Judaism. what a petty and insignicant comparison. Yep, I pay my dues at the URF, the Union for Reform Judaism. Only union I'll ever join. BTW, my wife made a wonderful Passover Seder. Even as usual had some non-Jewish friends there who enjoyed it. But then again, they weren't flaming rectalite far-left radical Socialists that can be found here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Bill D Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:57 PM The Martins were Jews? ..bet that's a surpise to them! |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 25 Apr 05 - 06:11 PM Martin, my grandfather was a Eugene Debs Socialist Blacksmith and a better man than you. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 05 - 08:32 PM Guest, Clint Keller, I could give a flying fuck. He's also dead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: harpgirl Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:11 PM martin gibson is lepus rex. simple as that. Prove he isn't. lepus doesn't play any instruments, bill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 26 Apr 05 - 02:41 AM And even dead he's a better man than you, Martin. Although I'll admit I never knew any one who could give flying fucks. Or take them -- what the hell does that mean, anyway? Would you give one some time when I can watch? clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Wolfgang Date: 26 Apr 05 - 07:53 AM Could someone please tell me whether the link still goes to where Martin first wanted it to go? If yes, I must say I do not at all understand the reaction of many of the first posters. To me they seem not to have read anything but the first couple of lines and to react in a knee jerk fashion to their picture of MG. You even don't care to get simple facts right like that the link does not go to an article but to a discussion If the link doesn't go now to where it was meant I apologise and can't contribute for I don't know what you are talking about. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: M.Ted Date: 26 Apr 05 - 01:01 PM The article is disturbing enough to keep you up at night--at least if you don't recognize it as primarily rhetorical--things are not that bad, at least not yet-- But it is important to understand is that the weavers and spinners of anti-semitic poison are gaining ground in European media, in academics, and is even penetrating the left--which is most disturbing, because the left was once the stronghold against them-- Martin isn't familar with the rhetoric of this "new" antisemitism" so he can't tell the difference between it and the legitimate questions, hestitations, and fears that folks have about what is happening in the Middle East--and he doesn't think he needs to--he just goes after everybody-- The people that Martin likes to tangle with here are not the Leftist Anti-Semitic Intellectuals that George Will or anyone else is talking about--on the other hand, Martin is not the cause of all the problems in the world either--there are some very vicious anti-semites out there, and some of them ply their trade on this forum when they can-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 26 Apr 05 - 02:00 PM Mted, thank you. and wolfgang, thank you, also. I appreciate your comments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Richard Bridge Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:49 PM Gobson asks "Why does there seem to be such a wealth of articles on this topic." Two possibilities - the phenomenon exists, and is being chronicled (Gobson's thesis, I suppose). Alternatively, it does not exist, and is being conjured. Some shades of grey in between. What is the evidence? Evidence, not supposition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Chris Green Date: 26 Apr 05 - 07:02 PM "Why is there such a wealth of articles on this topic?" BECAUSE IT'S THE INTERNET! Duh! |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Frankham Date: 26 Apr 05 - 07:13 PM Here's the analogy. There are plenty of Right-wing Americans who accuse other Americans as being anti-American. The same is happens in Israel. Some Israelis call others anti-Israeli. There is not a lock-step uniform position on what is pro-Israeli or anti-Israeli, pro-semite or anti-semite. As a matter of fact, there is the old joke..you get two Jews in the same room and you will have twelve different opinions. :) Israel is made up of many thinking people who often have differning views with each other....just like Americans. What some call anti-American others call pro-American and the same case can be made for Israel. This said, there are Israelis who do not agree with the political leadership and policies of the Israeli government and the same can be said for America. The danger here is a kind of McCarthyism that uses rhetoric such as pro and anti for a political agenda and power struggle. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:02 PM i still don't know what this is about, because I don't know what Martin means by the "left wing." I know what "left wing" means as an adjective, but not what it means as a noun. "The" left wing does not have a rule book nor a pope; it is not a political party or any kind of organization, any more than anti-Semites are an organization. Left-wingers and anti-semites both come in all flavors, including Jewish, and some notable musicians. If you want to talk about Nazi anti-Semitism, that can be defined, and there is a definite relationship there. Or KKK anti-Semitism. Let's get precise and name names. Who exactly is an L.W.A.-S. and exactly what's the connection between L.W. and A,-S.? As it is we're all just pushing words around, words with no precise referents. Basically all MG is saying is "Left-wingers are no good" and "Intellectuals are no good," and stuff like that there. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: beardedbruce Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:30 PM "Basically all MG is saying is "Left-wingers are no good" and "Intellectuals are no good," and stuff like that there. " Clint, MOST of what I hear around here is that "Right-wingers are no good." and "Fundementalists are no good," and stuff like that there. With a lot less justification than Martin G. has presented here. But of course, I forgot that the Left is ALL "pro-human, pro-earth progressives ", "folks who are, ..., infinately more comapssionate, wise and intellegent..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: robomatic Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:37 PM While I think MG has given new meaning to the word "Jew baiting" (It used to be the Jew who got baited not the other way around), and while I am reluctant to put together Leftist with Anti-semitic, there is *something* to it IMHO. My experience was a couple years ago when I was working in the Bay Area and I saw a lot of anti-Israel bumper stickers (Israel out of Palestine, etc.). In (the People's Republic of) Berkeley I was crossing the street on a lovely day when a volvo fair festooned with such stickers and banners went by. As he passed by I hollered into his open window something like: "Up with Israel! Fight the Arab Power!" The driver began hollering back and the first thing he said was "I'm Jewish but........" and in order to stay out of traffic I could not linger to hear the rest. Berkeley is the home of Pacifica Radio from which I recall hearing someone define poverty as "violence against the poor". That and the items which aroused the George Will essay do point to the fact that one 'can' be anti-Zionist and leftist (and Jewish anti-Zionist leftist). And while I have a visceral objection to such folk, it does not make them self-hating Jews (It just makes them idiots). But the entire spectrum of American liberalism is also broadly pro-Zionist. Leave us not forget that Robert Kennedy was assassinated for his pro-Israel position. I would venture to estimate that for every anti-Zionist lefty you can find at least one anti-Zionist righty, Patrick Buchanon comes to mind. I have seen the Neo Cons linked with Israel, and although I'm no New-Con expert, the top men in that movement seem to be Jewish. Now whether they were isolated out as Neo-Cons beCAUSE they are Jewish would be a point to consider, but frankly I'm not interested enough in NeoCons to care. God Bless America. I used to have more respect for Mr. Will, but during the second Clintion administration he began to lose his sense of humour and develop an incipient rant. As for the article by Mr. Will cited here, I agree with it. There is an Italian journalist who said much the same thing at the same time, Orianna Fallaci. I think she was more outspoken than Mr. Will. I've never been fond of left-wing right-wing labeling because it obscures rather than enlightens. Liberalism and Conservatism are necessary in order to make necessary adaptations to our society without jettisoning the good stuff. It is an eternal discussion. But Communism is not socialism is not liberalism, just as Nazism is not fascism is not conservatism. And ironically enough, early Zionism is linked with reason to socialism, lest we forget the heavy Jewish involvement with international unionism and the kibbutzniks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Alba Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:40 PM "But of course, I forgot that the Left is ALL "pro-human, pro-earth progressives ", "folks who are, ..., infinately more compassionate, wise and intellegent..." and very good looking and talented too!!! Just keep in mind these important facts and we shall all get along splendidly Bruce:>) Just funnin. Blessings Jude |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: robomatic Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:53 PM OOPS: Looks like I referenced the George Will article which was just a little over a year old and is used in MG's Thread: "The Anti-Semitism of the Intellectuals", instead of the article that is referenced in this thread from September 2003. I consdidered duplicating my post over there but it seems to have degenerated to some mutual characterizations so I'm gonna stand pat here and either leave well enough alone, comment on the article that belongs in THIS thread, start my own thread titled: "Do Jews really matter all that much?" or take a much needed break. TTFN |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: beardedbruce Date: 26 Apr 05 - 10:18 PM Alba, I recognize the uber mensch when I here them describing themselves... "My sense is that for Nietzsche it is the nobility that create value. In essence, the noble caste "decides" what truth is, and thus they become "the truthful ones." The commoners, operating out of a completely different and reactionary set of values, then, become "liars" from the perspective of the noble. Nietzsche doesn't seem to mind this dynamic, so long as the noble caste retains the power to create "truth." What Nietzsche is agitated about is that the masses have won, and have overthrown the "values" of the noble. The older, more noble "truths," have been replaced by a new set of dogmatic "truths" (Christianity, science) which are supposed to apply to everyone, and are governed by the spirit of ressentiment." http://www.uta.edu/english/apt/fritz/amore_lies.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 26 Apr 05 - 10:42 PM Guest, Clint Keller, you just try to turn it into a bunch of vagueness. The left-wing is most definately a noun, a group of people with an ideology. Don't deny this group doesn't exist or "what is it/" That bull-shit. And Jews can be anti-semites, true. But in numbers, they are quite insignificant and have really a problem just like anyone else who needs therapy for their self-esteem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 26 Apr 05 - 10:59 PM bruce: "MOST of what I hear around here is that "Right-wingers are no good." and "Fundementalists are no good," and stuff like that there." Well, no matter how much you hear it it's not reasonable discourse. It's opinion. And it doesn't make "Left-wingers are no good" and "Intellectuals are no good" reasonable discourse either. Just because A talks nonsense doesn't mean B talks sense when he speaks the same way. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: beardedbruce Date: 26 Apr 05 - 11:02 PM No, but the deafening silence about the liberals using this tactic, with the loud shouts whenever anyone less than far left uses it seems to be a small bias. If you don't like Martin using this logifc, why do you accept those you agree with using it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Alba Date: 26 Apr 05 - 11:17 PM I am being shown an essay on Truth, Lies, Nihilism, and the Uber-mensch By Friedrich Nietzsche Did you deliberately ignore my attempt at lightness or dare I say humor! Are you inferring I am a Plebeian Bruce? Judith |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 26 Apr 05 - 11:32 PM " The left-wing is most definately a noun, a group of people with an ideology. Don't deny this group doesn't exist or "what is it/" Martin, I honestly don't know who you mean by the left wing. Noam Chomsky, I suppose, but do you include Hillary Clinton? I've known some who call the whole Democratic party left wing. Do you agree? Or not? Do you consider liberals Left Wing? And who do you cnsider liberal? Socialism is usually considered left wing, but Hitler's National Socialism is usually considered rightwing. And socialism isn't as left as Communism. Maybe. Is Marxism always left? And do you consider Noam &/or Hilary anti-Semitic? Are you now saying that Anti-Semitism is part of the ideology of the Left Wing, whoever they are? I'm willing to believe they exist if you'll tell me who you include and what their common ideology is. You describe it and I'll let you name it. I was entirely serious when I said this: 'I don't know what Martin means by the "left wing." I know what "left wing" means as an adjective, but not what it means as a noun. "The" left wing does not have a rule book nor a pope; it is not a political party or any kind of organization, any more than anti-Semites are an organization.' clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 27 Apr 05 - 02:13 AM The subject is "More on left-wing Anti-Semitism ," Bruce, and I'm talking with Martin about what I feel is his imprecise language. You are trying to shift the ground of the discussion to what I don't say to other people. You may start a thread on my biases and omissions if you like, but that's not what this thread is about and it will have no bearing on the validity of Martin's statements or of mine. I thought Martin's statements were vague. and you are welcome to agree or disagree with what I said. My defects of character or sins of omission in the past have nothing to do with the accuracy of my statements on this thread. No more than the beauty of my character or my good deeds would. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 05 - 02:37 AM Clint, I react to the entire thread, not just your postings. But how is "Martin, my grandfather was a Eugene Debs Socialist Blacksmith and a better man than you." and "And even dead he's a better man than you, Martin. " on the subject of "More on left-wing Anti-Semitism ," Are you stating that since he says some of the Left are anti-semites, that if you show that one was not you have demonstrated anything? Ah, but the arguement that the Liberal uber mensch was always right, even when the facts did not support them, is a long tradition here on Mudcat. I just feel that Martin G should be held to the same standards as the others here are held to. " He is a brownshirt Bushite... That is who he worships... Has a little Bushite santuary in his house with Bush's picture over a table with candles and he goes there several times a day to pray to Bush..." No evidence, and contradicting past postings. Bobert has stated that ALL BUSHITES support Bush 100% of the time- Yet most, if not all of those here who Bobert has labeled "Bushites" have disagreed with the present administration on several, if not many points. We just think the Left, as represented by Bobert and his ilk, would be doing an even worse job. And I kind of doubt that Bobert can provide ANY evidence of facts to back up his statements. As usual. The only one here who seems to have a jones for worshipping Bush is Bobert.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: freda underhill Date: 27 Apr 05 - 09:25 AM back to theories, here is an interesting analysis of the psychotherapeutic theory of Victim, rescuer, persecutor, applied to international conflicts, including Israel and Palestine Here is another comment, with differing views, on the same model, known as the drama triangle |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 27 Apr 05 - 02:32 PM "Are you stating that since he says some of the Left are anti-semites, that if you show that one was not you have demonstrated anything?" No, I was just annoyed at the way Martin use "Socialist" as an insult and I was hoping to yank his chain a little, since he claims to be so fond of chain-yanking. After all, it was a socialist that gave us the Pledge of Allegiance that The Right (to use a vague label) is so fond of. And in my grandfather's day they were pushing outrageous things like the 8-hour day which I am fond of, though many bosses are trying to get rid of it now. All those dams that Roosevelt had built during the depression were considered Socialism by hard-line capitalists - they even endorsed by that pinko Woody G.- but now the Republicans around here love them dearly. But all that explanation is not as much fun as telling Martin that my Socialist grandfather was a better man than him. He's not moved by reasonable explanations anyway. My later rant, about vagueness, was more aimed at the other posters here. Including myself; we're all wasting our time discussing loosely defined words and hoping to convert the stubborn. After all, even if there are bigots on the Left I'm still in favor of Social Security, same as Martin stays Jewish even though there are bigoted Jews. As he should. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 27 Apr 05 - 02:41 PM Your socialist grandfather never made an honest dime, clint Keller. He is most certainly and completely dead. Beardedbruce has a lot of truth to what he says, especially about Mr. bobert, the obsessed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: robomatic Date: 27 Apr 05 - 02:47 PM "'Socialism is a wonderful theory. The only thing wrong with it is it CAN be realized' a witty person once said and how right I was." -Ephraim Kishon |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 27 Apr 05 - 02:54 PM Thank God, socialists in America are second class citizens here. They are free to practice it, and the rest of us are free to demean them for it. Please move to Cuba, comrade. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:49 PM Gotcha, Martin. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:54 PM gotcha, what? You got nothing, pal. I love demeaning you for it. so would any other relatively normal American. As a socialist, you are kind of a scumbag in my book, here, comrade Keller. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Frankham Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:03 PM Labels and smear tactics are common for those who have no legitimate discussion or argument to present. I believe that Anti-Semitism exists and since Arabs are Semitic people as well, they are also recipients. I'm constantly amazed at how similar the Jewish and Arab cultures are. They have similar linguistic roots ("Sholem Alecheim" and "Salam Alekham") and yet they seem to find it necessary to go at each other. It seems the same problem in Ireland as well and possibly the Baltic countries. It has to be considered that there are many different branches of Judaism and one branch doesn't have a corner on enlightenment. Some Orthodox Jews don't even acknowledge Conservative or Reformed Jews as being Jewish. It's analogy would be as in Christianity, there are many opposing sects as well. I consider myself to be a secular humanist with Jewish roots. I adhere to the principles of "Haskala", the Enlightenment which frees from the restriction of organized orthodoxy in religion. I am therefore in discussion with those about religion in general, an atheist. I refuse to discuss openly my belief system with doctrinaire religious zealots. I am what's called a "Freethinker". I think it's significant that many Left-wing intellectuals were culturally Jewish. I would find it very difficult for someone of the Jewish tradition to claim that they were alone the spokesperson for all Jews. That would be tatamount to a kind of madness in my view. I believe that in a discussion of anti-any religion, you gotta' look at the larger picture of growing intolerance in a world that poses enemies and breeds demogoguery. It's not just a problem for Jewish people but for everyone, today regardless of their religious affiliation or choice not to affiliate. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:46 PM Frank. I consider you a Jew who ABANDONDED his roots. The worst kind of Jew of them all. You bring shame on your predessors. your pseudo intellectualism has separated you from what you could have been. Oh, well. You'll probably find it again on your deathbed like many do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:52 PM Oh, I'm not the socialist Keller; that's my grandfather, the blacksmith: the one that's a better man than you. I'm more of an elderly godless freak. gotcha again. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:52 PM Fank forgot more about music than you'll ever know Martin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:56 PM That should have read "Frank" not Fank. And he still forgot more about music than you'll ever know Martin. I've yet to see a music post from you that added anything to this forum. You're total worth musically adds up to "Martins and Gibson are good guitars. All the rest of them are not". Big deal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST Date: 27 Apr 05 - 06:56 PM You bring shame on your predessors Judge not lest ye be judged Martin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: dianavan Date: 28 Apr 05 - 12:25 AM Thanks Frankham for allowing people to understand that Martin isn't the only Jew around. "I consider myself to be a secular humanist with Jewish roots. I adhere to the principles of "Haskala", the Enlightenment which frees from the restriction of organized orthodoxy in religion. I am therefore in discussion with those about religion in general, an atheist. I refuse to discuss openly my belief system with doctrinaire religious zealots. I am what's called a "Freethinker". I think it's significant that many Left-wing intellectuals were culturally Jewish. I would find it very difficult for someone of the Jewish tradition to claim that they were alone the spokesperson for all Jews. That would be tatamount to a kind of madness in my view." I'm sorry to say, Martin despises Jews who actually think and would prefer that non-Jews accept the caricature that he presents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 28 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM Frank is no a Jew and is quite a poor one if best at this point as he has shown no use for the religion. As far as Frank knowing more about music than I do, there is no real proof of that and it is completely irrelevant and off topic, sleepless dad, so please stop flailing. dianavan, I know many Jewish scholars. Frank or "Fank" is by far not one of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:19 PM Martin - your lack of musical knowledge is amazing. We all know how ignorant you are when it comes to politics and social issues { didn't your mother or father tell you it's not nice to call women by their body parts ? }. But please learn something about music if you plan to continue to muddy the waters here. Try picking up a book sometime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:22 PM Actually Frank Hamilton is a pretty good at flailing from what I've heard http://www.mindspring.com/~hamprod/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Zogby Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:57 PM Maybe we should take a poll. Who brings more shame upon his predessors? 1. Martin Gibson? 2. Frank Hamilton? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:07 PM Martin Gibson can't. He has no predessors, fool. He is here by design by the originator of his character which may or may not always be the true impressions of his creator. But you just don't get it, never have, and never will. But what's fun for some............ And sleepless dad, again, your attack on me musically is irrelevant both to this topic and to me because you have no clue what I know, or even what books I have contributed to on various musical history. All you know is that this is the only type of PERSONAL ATTACK you can muster because you are such a weak person and are tapped out and frustrated with I assume your own life............and failures. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:17 PM Oi Topol put a sock in it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: M.Ted Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:27 PM I know a good number of people who have many of the same views that Martin does, including some Jews---they don't stand up to argue or debate, because they aren't arguers or debaters. They tend to sit tight and keep their mouths shut. One person I know explained why very succinctly. "if we really had freedom of speech, I would be able to say what I think without having somebody getting in my face about it." There are few people here who are very good at expressing their ideas forcefully(often at great length;-)). Being the sort of left-leaning hippie that I am, I even when I don't agree, I tend to be sympathetic--but being forceful doesn't alway mean you are right. If someone else sees another side, it doesn't hurt to let them say what they think. You'll always learn something. Just for the record, I wish I had more friends like Frank Hamilton. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:59 PM Mted, I feel sorry for that group you mentioned. No one knows what they are thinking and they just keep it bottled up. Free speech 101: If you haven't anything good to say, don't say it. Free speech 102: If you haven't got anything good to say, say it anyway. Mted, you hit the nail on the head. Much of the ruckus I cause is because I lash out back. I call it mocking the mockers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Zogby Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:01 PM "Martin Gibson can't. He has no predessors, fool. He is here by design by the originator of his character which may or may not always be the true impressions of his creator. But you just don't get it, never have, and never will." Oh really? I was talking about the Martin Gibson who made the post below. Are you now saying that you are not Jewish, you don't know anything about Passover and you do not play Guitar, Bass or Banjo? I didn't think so. I get it, always have, always will. It's you who can't keep track of what he has said in his own posts. "But what's fun for some." Tell us how much fun is it constantly proving yourself to be an asshole, a buffoon and an idiot? And by the way, idiot, the word is "predecessor." You are so stupid you don't even know when you are being ridiculed. Everyone else is laughing at you buddy, even those you list as your supporters. Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Martin Gibson Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM Oh, but I am a Jew. To the truly ignorant like many here who don't know much about Jews, reformed Jews observe Shabbos different than Orthodox. This does not necessarily make them bad Jews for driving a car, using electric lights, wearing shoes, etc. The Reformed Judaism movement is just not as extreme. By the way, I am taking a break right now from helping my wife prepare for the Paaover seder we are having for 10 family & friends. If anyone wants to know more about Passover, please PM me and I will tell you about this special holiday. You too, dianavan, as I feel you are truly one of the most uninformed here about Judaism, amonst some other things. I only get angry with morons, Amos. You should know that by now firsthand. Yes, I play bass and banjo as well as guitar. Sing, also. Sometimes as a solo, sometimes doing tenor harmonies with groups. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:08 PM I'm not the mocking mocker I'm the mocking mocker's son... |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Don Firth Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:22 PM Frank Hamilton has more music (and musical knowledge) in his little finger than most of us here on Mudcat--all of us together--have in our whole beings. I think most here would agree with that. I first heard him on record back in the late Fifties and have admired him ever since. I saw him on stage once, when the Weavers passed through Seattle on concert tour. And as far as Martin Gibson is concerned, anyone with that much hate in him has no room left over for music. None! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: robomatic Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:43 PM Holy Hannah Dianavan, are you Jewish too? They're comin' out of the woodwork. Or maybe you were quoting someone, or borrowing his words? It's hard to tell, but welcome to the thread anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 28 Apr 05 - 08:09 PM Guest, Zogby. What's the difference? You are to stupid to understand what is true or not anyway, so why waste my breath. Thanks for letting me yank your chain. I could care what you think. I never had any intention of meeting you anyway. I love how my anti-semitism threads have made the ones who are the biggest Jew haters come out of the woodwork, Zogby. Major success for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: dianavan Date: 28 Apr 05 - 09:07 PM No Robo - I am not Jewish. My maiden name is a very old Jewish name but my great-grandfather was a merchant with the Dutch Indonesian Trading Company and married a woman from Bali. The tradition is long gone in my family. I was quoting Frankham. To my knowledge there are no Jewish women in my family. I am an American hybrid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 30 Apr 05 - 01:15 PM And no an ex-patriot feminist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Zogby Date: 30 Apr 05 - 02:07 PM "I love how my anti-semitism threads have made the ones who are the biggest Jew haters come out of the woodwork, Zogby." You really need to try to realize when you are acting as a Jew and when you are acting as a jerk. It's the jerk haters you are bringing "out of the woodwork." You would be well advised to get some treatment for your delusions. You should do it soon. Your slips are showing. Your persona is slipping into your personality and your personality is slipping away. Don't you notice your wife wincing now as you enter a room and begin to talk? Get some help soon before you are locked in a cell and your only communication with the outside is when you get to bark "anti-semite" at the orderlies who bring your medication. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Cunningham Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:05 PM Martin Gibson, I can't help but notice that "Zogby" is one of your opponents in this thread and that you have neglected to call attention to the anti-Semitic derivation of his/her posting handle. "ZOG," as you know, stands for Zionist Occupation Government, the extreme right wing and neo-Nazi code for the theory that Jews control various governments (including the American government), the world financial markets and the mass media. As I'm sure you also know, this anti-Semitism has also gained great currency among the extreme left wing. Go to any anti-globalization demonstartion and you'll see the Jews and/or Zionists blamed for all manner of evil. That left wing extremism, as you know, has great currency here on Mudcat. I'm sure you'll recall all the postings on Mudcat when Bush and Blair invaded Iraq to the effect that Bush was invading on behalf of Israel who wants to control the entire Middle East. It's pretty obvious that the extreme left and the extreme right have a happy common ground in their anti-Semitism. So, Martin, how come you haven't exposed Zogby, whose very name betrays anti-Semitism? C |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: CarolC Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:13 PM Zogby is the name of one of the major polling organizations in the world. Zogby International I assume you had some reason for putting my pre-married name on your post, GUEST. I have no idea what it could possibly be though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Ron Davies Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:19 PM Just consider what Benjamin, one of our many reasonable and personable posters who happen to be Jewish, but don't try to use their Jewishness as a club to beat anybody over the head who doesn't agree with them: (speaking recently to "Martin"): "You do the two guitars that you hold in so much reverence no good advertisement and you do our people no favors by your filthy and vicious tongue". That says it all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Cunningham Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM CarolC, You flatter yourself if you think that my name has anything to do with you. If your pre-married name is "Cunningham," than surely you know that we share a very common name. There are 26 Cunninghams listed just in the Davenport, IA phonebook. C |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: CarolC Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:28 PM Ok. No problem then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Zogby Date: 30 Apr 05 - 04:03 PM C She is right, I am named after the pollster, I you look back a bit in the thread a bit, you will see a poll. Zogby |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: Once Famous Date: 01 May 05 - 11:42 AM There has always been right wing anti-semitism. It is the new left wing anti-Israel, "oh the poor downtrodden Palestinians" that I foucs on. They are the NEW anti-semitism and what rears it's head here on Mudcat. That should answer your stupid question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Footnote Date: 01 May 05 - 12:12 PM What is a Psycopath? Psychopaths are manipulative, charming, glib, deceptive, parasitic, irresponsible, selfish, callous, promiscuous, impulsive, antisocial, and aggressive individuals who have no concern for the welfare of others, experience little remorse or guilt as a result of their injurious and antisocial behavior, do not tolerate delay of gratification, and persevere despite punishment; psychopaths are mostly male and are less than 1% in the general population; approximately 11% of the forensic psychiatric population and 23% of the correctional population are psychopaths. Yip harprgir...you are so on the money further confirmation!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: CarolC Date: 01 May 05 - 02:12 PM To you, fictional character called Martin Gibson, it is anti-Semitic to consider Palestinians just as much human beings as everyone else (including Jews). By your definition, everyone who regards Palestinians as human beings is an anti-Semite. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Joanie Arcola Date: 01 May 05 - 02:18 PM My maiden name is also Cunningham and there were lots of Cunninghams in Milwaukee when I was a Cunningham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: GUEST,Ishmael Date: 01 May 05 - 02:45 PM Palestinians are Semitic. Martin Gibson, who says that being a jew is a religious affilliation and not a racial category, by his on definition is not semitic. Martin Gibson, the man behind the character is clearly anti-Palestinian, therefor he is an anti-semite. In fact he is arguably the most strident anti-semite ever to post in the Mudcat. Poll Question: a: Do you find that ironic? b: Is it par for the course for ignorant bigotry? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism From: CarolC Date: 01 May 05 - 02:51 PM Although ultimately, I suppose it doesn't really matter at all, GUEST,Ishmael, because "Martin Gibson" doesn't exist. |
