BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes

Subject: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 10:31 PM

Bring your six-shooter to Disneyworld, folks! When someone jostles your 44 ounce coca-cola and you feel threatened, you can shoot em!
Bush signed the "Duel in the streets" law!

Some excerpts from the Washington Post article:

Florida Attorney General Charlie Crist, a leading candidate for the Republican governor's nomination in 2006, was among those who wrote letters of support. With that kind of high-level backing, Rep. Dennis Baxley, a Republican from Ocala who sponsored the House measure, could ridicule critics as "hysterical."

"Disorder and chaos are always held in check by the law-abiding citizen," Baxley said.

Hammer, a 4-foot-11 dynamo with a national reputation for her persuasive powers, dismissed the papers as "liberal, anti-gunners" and "Chicken Littles." The current law unfairly forces Floridians to make split-second decisions about a criminal's intent, she said, and NRA lobbyists like to note that was deemed impossible generations ago by legendary Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes. "Detached reflection," Holmes said in one of his most oft-quoted pronouncements, "cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife."

Hammer stresses that violent-crime rates in Florida have dropped since the right-to-carry law was signed. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement reports that violent crimes dropped from 1,136 per 100,00 residents in 1989 -- two years after the law went into effect -- to 727.7 per 100,000 in 2003.

Her opponents counter that Florida's drop is not tied to the gun law and note that national violent-crime rates have been trending down. More important, Gelber and others say, is that Florida still ranked second in the nation, behind only South Carolina, in violent crime in 2003, according to U.S. Census Bureau statistics.

Brady's best hope, as a national fight appears inevitable, is that there will be a backlash -- much like the bounce that gun control got in Florida in the 1980s when the loss on the right-to-carry law was followed by victories on waiting periods and background checks.

"This," Brady says of the new Florida measure, "will be the thing that will awaken the sleeping great number of Middle Americans who will think this is so absurd."

But, for now, it is the thoughts of another group that really matter, the ones with guns. In this state of 17 million people, permits to carry guns have been issued more than 1 million times in the past 18 years.




Marion Hammer lives on my street. I feel so much safer!   NOT!!!!!!!
Now if I run through her flowers by mistake, she might shoot me if she gets pissed off and she could get away with it!
say goodnight, harpgirl, "goodnight harpgirl"

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 10:38 PM

Dare to Duel In The Streets

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 09:43 AM

We've had carry laws in TN for several years now and there haven't been any duels in the streets among legal carriers.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:12 AM

The right to carry law is different, Kim. This law allows "deadly force to be met with deadly force". Florida is being used as a legislative jumpoff to spread this bill throughout the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:29 AM

How rididulous and scary.....

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:49 AM

I'm not convinced it's a bad thing. Let's see if we can get inner city drug lords to duel each other. Does the law include or exclude full automatic weapons?

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 12:12 PM

This law sets up some interesting legal questions.

If person A feels like he or she is being threatened by person B, and person A shoots person B, and in so doing, killes a six year old kid who is walking along the street behind person B, will person A be held accountable? Will person B be held accountable for person A killing the kid because person B was threateneing person A? What if person B wasn't really threatening person A? What if it was a misunderstanding... person B thought person A's cellphone was a gun and person B pulls out his/her gun in "self defence"... person A see's person B's gun and shoots him/her in "self defence". Kid gets killed... who goes to jail?

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 12:59 PM

As if inner city drug lords need a legislative okay before they start bustin' caps?

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: GUEST,Uncle DaveO
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 01:10 PM

Harpgirl, I direct your attention to an excerpt from the article:

The bill says the person has ``the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so, to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another.''

Note that the operative phrase is "if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary". The armed citizen operates on his/her belief, but it will be the prosecutor, the judge, and the jury who will decide, later, whether it was a reasonable belief or not. This law (if one trusts the article) does not give unfettered carte blanche to an armed citizen who, for whatever reason, may feel threatened in some manner.

Now, what the rule of law may be with respect to injury to third persons will have to be worked out, unless it's specified in the law, which I don't expect is the case. And that is a real fly in the ointment.

I should expect that, if one assumes that an actual threat is deemed (by the justice system) to have occurred, and if the degree of force applied by the armed citizen is deemed appropriate to the threat, then injuries (even including death) to bystanders would fall under the rules for civil claims by the third, injured party against (potentially) both the initial threatener and the reacting armed citizen.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:15 PM

Moreover, it's not a "duel." A duel had and has very specific protocols. What is being described here is simply a gunfight. Should you like to learn more about the duel, click here for the Irish -- there were also American and French codes (that I'm aware of).

Sometimes I wish we'd bring back the duel....

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:26 PM

So up until now deadly force could not be handled with deadly force? If someone attacks you with a knife or gun and you can't run away, what do feel should be your option, harpgirl?

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:39 PM

Today's editorial cartoon in the New Orleans Times-Picayune:

http://www.nola.com/news/kelley/index.ssf/04-28-2005?2005/04282005_toon.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:42 PM

We were personally acquainted with a coffee house owner in California who felt threatened on several occasions by a customer. The owner purchased a hand gun and kept it behind the counter. One night he shot and killed the customer and was not prosecuted because it was ruled to be self defense. However, he also accidently shot and killed one of his employees at the same time and was convicted of manslaughter for which he spent about six months at a minimum security honor farm.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: gnu
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 04:09 PM

Fred Fulton and his wife, Verna Decare, elderly country and western musicians (and DAMN fine people... I KNOW) were brutally, BRUTALLY (decapitaion brutal enough for ya?), murdered in their home in Minto, New Brunswick, Canada, a couple of days ago. Home invasions are far too numerous these days and it is the DIRECT result of our guns laws which do not allow guns to be used for self-defence in a person's OWN home.

So, all you gunaphobics keep yappin about how terrible gun ownership is and keep your doors locked and your windows shuttered... oh yeah, that won't help... guess ya just gotta pray... better get yer beads out and start now. It's to late for Fred and Verna. God rest their souls. Shall I give them your condolences at the funeral?

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 04:44 PM

Sensible people will give their wallets, walk away from a fight, or whatever. But when pushed to where it's life or death...that's a different story.

I'd surrender all of my possessions, walk away from a fight, let you call me vile names, or whatever else. But if it REALLY becomes me-or-you, I'd much rather it was me and I'll do everything in my power to make it so.

And as I've said before, I have a "concealed carry" permit.

And as I've said before, I don't usually carry anything more dangerous than a Leatherman Micra.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: gnu
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 04:44 PM

Sorry about that. Don't want to start up another bullshit discussioin which has no end. Just feeling sad for Fred and Verna and their children and families. Just venting a little in the shock of it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:42 PM

Well, Sinsull, in the past when I was attacked with a knife, I submitted to the required degradation. And when I was attacked with a gun, I submitted to the required degradation. I also escaped and ran into the street and a vehicle took me away.

Are you suggesting that I should carry both a knife and a gun? Perhaps I should carry a gun to the Getaway as well as a knife. I'm sure I won't be the only one doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 07:06 PM

Harpgirl, I don't think that anyone can tell you what to do in a given situation. You have to decide then and there. As the song says,

...ain't nobody else can walk it for you,
You gotta walk it by yourself.

May I suggest, however, that a gun AND a knife would be, ahem, overkill? In fact, I think that a meter-long piece of wooden closet rod might be preferable if you DO want a weapon.

For close combat, my preferred weapon is a hardwood nightstick.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 07:17 PM

Nah, a large keyring ring that you can place all the way to the bottom of your middle finger is a nasty piece of business that can't be "misinerpreted" by the police, especially when it rakes a face.

Say now, there's a good idea for a thread... something like, "Tips for self-defence you might not have thought of".

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:36 PM

Rolled newspapers or magazines, a lighter sticking out from the top of your fist, a belt, a pen or pencil, dust or sand, the edges of your hands and feet, your wristwatch, a roll of coins, a comb or hair brush, a box of matches, a small stick, a paper clip, a piece of string or twine -- to name but a few.

But I ain't gonna tell you how to use them!

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:06 PM

Nah, I think I'll just start packing heat everywhere I go! Warning, don't get me mad!

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:53 PM

Harpgirl, I was not suggesting, I was asking and you answered. You chose to submit to the required degradation. I have been attacked at gunpoint and with a gun to my head had no option but to do as I was told. Later, I shook my head in wonder at the Monday morning quarterbacks who had all sorts of advice as to what I should have done. It's easy to know when you don't have a fist over your mouth and a gun at your head.

A friend in a similar situation, after turning over his watch, wallet, wedding ring, etc. was severely beaten and left for dead by a gang of teenagers who thought the whole thing was funny. I guess I was lucky.

In my case, having a gun or knife would not have done me a bit of good. I had no opportunity to use it unless I chose to walk the streets with it at the ready. He might have been able to save himself.

My impression is that if you choose to carry a weapon, you had better know how to use it and be psychologically ready to use it or more than likely it will be used against you.

As to weapons at the Getaway - to my knowledge no one there carries without a valid Maryland permit. The only dangerous weapons at Ramblewood are the banjos and some lethal Swiss Army knives with bottle opener attachments.

My question re: meeting deadly force with deadly force would be - was it ever illegal to do it in Florida? Wasn't self defence permitted?

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 12:27 AM

Actually gnu, the Canadian Criminal Code does include the right of citizens to use deadly force to protect themselves (sections 34, 35 and 37). The key provision in the Canadian criminal code (34) is that, "no one may use more force than is necessary and then only when he believes, on reasonable grounds, that he can not otherwise preserve himself from death or grievous bodily harm".

I didn't know that until I looked it up. I, like you, assumed you couldn't use deadly force. So in other words, you can kill someone in self defense, but you better use a shotgun or your bare hands, because as most Canadians know, you can't use a handgun, because they are illegal. And you better have the money for a damned good lawyer after the fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: gnu
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:06 AM

Handguns ARE legal, under a restricted firearm permit. I won't get into the details, but the only place you could defend yourself with a handgun is in your home or at the range or in transit between the two.

Now, here's why you can't defend yourself in your home with any gun. The new (ten years or so) laws require that all firearms must be secured and all ammunition must be secured. Firearms and ammunition must be secured separately. Secured means under lock and key or rendering the firearm useless by means of a trigger lock or various other means. So, if someone enters your home with criminal intent, you have to unlock the firearm, unlock the ammo, load the firearm, and, by that time, kiss your ass goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: harpgirl
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:47 AM

Saying I CHOSE to submit to the required degradation is slightly inaccurate, my dear Sinsull. To be precise, I was awakened from a deep sleep by a gun pointing at my temple and then it was STRONGLY SUGGESTED that I submit to the required degradation. Had I had a handgun, I am quite sure I would have not had the opportunity under the circumstances, to shoot back at my......... suitor.

But, on your wise council, I think I'll go out and buy a few dozen handguns, this afternoon. Then I can have an array from which to choose; to match my outfit, to complement the decor in my boudoir, or to match the varying colors of cement and grass while I am jogging. Oh, and one each, to match each of my unique autoharps!

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:05 AM

If you are awakened suddenly, if you have a gun thrust into your ear on the street, or in any other such circumstance, it isn't likely you'd have time to grab a gun, a knife, a ball bat, or anything else.

The only -- ONLY! -- decision you can make is submit or fight back bare-handed. Even such experts in self-defense as W. E. Fairbairn, Rex Applegate, Masaad Ayoob, and Kyose Nake flat-out state not to fight UNLESS you are certain that you have nothing to lose if you do.
Then, and only then, should you fight back -- and if you do you start out at full throttle and don't worry about the damage you inflict.

No, I'm not recommending that you do it. The choice is, and must be, yours and yours alone -- based upon your assessment of the situation.

And you must also be ready to accept the consequences of your decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 03:28 PM

Wise council? I offered none. I too was the victim of an armed attack and still choose not to carry a weapon mainly because I doubt that I could bring myself to use it.

But if color coordinated pearl handles are your choice, go for it.

SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: kendall
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 07:42 AM

Here we go again, emotions v/s logic.
Fact: The crime rate in Florida went into the cellar when that "right to carry" law went into effect. If you shoot someone, even in self defense, you must still stand trial. That is a deterent to nuts who blaze away first and ask questions later.If you can't convince a grand jury that you believed your life was in danger, you go to trial, and probably prison. Many years ago and friend of mine shot and killed another friend of mine. He pleaded self defense, but he was convicted because he went into the man's home with a concealed handgun on his person. The victim found out that he had beed humping his wife, said he was going to get his "equalizer", got to his feet and was shot three times killing him instantly. He got 30 years. So, just believing you are in danger is no guarantee that you will get away with it.Going into the victim's home with a gun was his downfall.

Fact: Vermont has no law about carrying a concealed weapon, yet it has the lowest homocide rate in the country.

Fact: Maine has one million people, and there are 10,000 permits to carry concealed. We have the SECOND lowest homocide rate in the country.

If your past experience makes you jump at shadows, I understand that and I sympathize with you, but I'm afraid that logic must outweigh emotions.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 08:57 AM

They got them laws down in Virgina and there's a bunch of Rambo wantabees walking 'round in gangs with holsters which is purdy intimidatin' the first time you see it... But, by the Grace of God, the Virginia courts have so far ruled that "pulic" doesn't extend to bars and restuarants so an owner can ask a pistol packing patron to leave.... Whew...

As fir my own opinion... I grew up with rifles and still own several so I don't have any problems with guns per sa but as fir folks strapin' on pistols to go to the mall, hey, I'm not too sure this is waht the Founding Fathers had in mind...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: kendall
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:08 AM

A few years ago some yahoo showed up at a family festival with a big hog leg strapped to his ass. The police hauled him off to the pokey, but they had to give his gun back. Poor judgement is not a crime in Maine.

Our constitution says.."the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall never be questioned... However, you can be convicted of criminal threatening, which he was.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: GUEST,marks
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 01:12 PM

Harpgirl

Did you live at the time in a jurisdiction which permitted possession of firearms? Just feel that if your attacker had any reason to believe there was even a tiny chance that you might be armed, the attack might not have happened in the first place.

Nothing encourages the criminal more than the comforting knowledge that the victim cannot resist.

Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 01:31 PM

I don't expect any more shootouts in Florida than I do in Idaho. Gang related drivebys -- yeah, we're starting to get them, especially in the Boise area (Boise is now the 3rd largest city in the Pacific Northwest). Gonna have those everywhere, these days.

Otherwise, the state is pretty quiet except for the usual group of damnfools, yahoos, touroids, and dumbshits.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: kendall
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 05:34 PM

Lock up the idiots, not the guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 06:01 PM

I propose that the state give all the tourists holsters as soon as they cross the state line.

No guns, just holsters. Then they can pretend they're cowboys.

Out here in the West, usta be a man'd git dressed and jist afore he stepped out inta the street he'd buckle on his trusty six-shooter. Nowadays, a man gits dressed and jist afore he steps out inta the street he puts his trusty cellphone on his belt. Times have sure 'nuff changed here in the Rockies.

Subject: RE: BS: Flori-DUH: 'Duel in the streets' passes
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 05 - 01:59 PM

I live in Ontario and I just found out about Fred and his common-law wife's murders (Fred's a cousin of mine) and I couldn't believe it. I didn't know him but from what I read on here, he and his girlfriend were very nice and caring people. It's a shame what happened to them. I think people should be allowed to protect themselves in their own home from people like that. I hope their killer is brought to justice...