The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:25 AM

Because I'm American?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:30 AM

Thanks Jim, for seconding my disgust over Bragg's support for Oona King. As I said, I just can't square his support of her with his previously stated political positions.

Which is why I asked if he had sold out--supporting King is pretty difficult to justify as anything other than just that.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 11:22 AM

This one also seems appropriate for the times:

Children of the revolution
Kirsty MacColl

Children of the revolution coming out to play
Bombers ripped the night apart and blew the school away
Some live on the south side and they overlook the water
Some live on the north side and they're looking at the border
And those children of the revolution see the soldiers come
Smiling at the widows as they take away the sons
Children of the revolution shot down with a brand new gun
They're dropping down like flies and in their eyes
The images of war are in their eyes
They've seen it all before and know your lies
Won't keep their bellies full
In love and war there are no rules

Children of the revolution getting off the boat
To face the ignorance and prejudice that keep this land afloat
Children of the revolution make a brand new start
Running through the rubble of a thousand broken hearts and in their eyes
All promises are broken in their eyes
The words that can't be spoken and your lies
Don't keep their bellies full
In love and war there are no rules
But in their eyes
Murder comes by sea and from the skies
It's shiny and it's quick to take their lives
And it's cruel in love and war there are no rules

Children of the revolution coming out to play
Someone sells a gun and someone blows them all away
Children of the revolution sold out by the banks
Who swap the green upon the dollars for the green upon the tanks
Children of the revolution shot down by a brand new gun

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 11:27 AM

GUEST,JSC


"As I said, I just can't square his support of her with his previously stated political positions."


..and thats your problem


trying to understand the 'consistency' of other peoples
complicated dynamic evolving motivations, activism, and statements
through the miasma of your own severly restricting moral principles..


..but what 'disgusts' me
about people like you
is your selfish insistence on parading yourslf to be 'right'
at the cost of your abnegation of political responsibility
for our wider community..

and apparent total disregard for the potentialy tory promoting consequences
of your hell bent wish to convince other leftist citizens
to not use their vote against the tories..

sad..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 11:31 AM

There is a hell of a lot more to political and community responsibility than hating the Tories.

Too bad you are so blinded by your hatred you can't see your way out of hate to a place that transcends party loyalties. It's called doing what your conscience dictates...like standing up for what you believe in, instead of voting against what you hate and fear.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of..
Date: 01 May 05 - 11:46 AM

oh yes.. and what is that going to acheive after May the 5th
if the tories get back in..!!!???


yes damn right I hate the tories..

hatred born from personal and community experience of their evil
ideologies and economics..

..not too keen on moralistically self indulgent people like you either

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:01 PM

.. and for what its worth..

its a hatred that fuels an anger that politicizes for positive action..

.. not a hatred blind to other better options and strategies..


if and when we can make them possible and realisable..


certainly not blind adherence to paralysing inappropriate moralistic
desertion
from the real political power struggle
that we're all [like it or not] neck deep in shit in..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:18 PM

btw.. please explain why oona King is such a bad person..

and why your 'disgust' for a few individuals in new labour


can justify your desire to replace a moderately 'progressive' Govt..


..and consequently inflict a Tory prime minister on all of us

in UK..??


thanks..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:24 PM

I'd like to dedicate this one to you, sick of, and all the people like you who are anti-warriors...except at election time.

NO MORE WAR!

"The socialist songbook"

No more shall we fight their battles,
No more shall we go to war,
O,let the high and mighty slaughter
one another.
We will wage their wars no more.
NO MORE WAR!

No more shall we make munitions,
No more guns and poison gas;
O,let the high and mighty slaughter
one another.
No more for the working class.
NO MORE WAR!

No more shall we serve as targets,
No more slay our fellow men.
0, let the high and mighty slaughter
one another.
We'll not go to war again.
NO MORE WAR!


No more shall we shout their slogans,
No more: now that we're awake.
O, let the high and mighty slaughter
one another.
Let them taste the hell they make.
NO MORE WAR!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:31 PM

what is this .. sunday afternoon kareoke down the student union bar..


please just answer some effin questions JSC...!!!!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:33 PM

I don't believe there is any danger of the Tories winning, or of a Tory PM any time soon, so that bogeyman card won't play.

Also, did I mention that voting against what you hate and fear repeatedly while achieving the same result is rather counter-intuitve?

And the Blair government progressive? Not even moderately. Conservative lite, yes.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:44 PM

Another one for the sing-along (this IS a music thread after all)

GUY FAWKES' TABLE
Attila the Stockbroker

I'm sitting at Guy Fawkes' table
The day Parliament voted for war
Though the mass of the people oppose it
And it flouts international law
I'm sitting at Guy Fawkes' table
While American thugs flaunt their power
Egged on by a sad little muppet
And his craven and cowardly shower.

Aneurin Bevan, your party is dead
And the time for a new one is nigh
Will the last person Left please turn out the lights?
New Labour, we're saying goodbye.

They won't be caught up in the carnage
They'll be pontificating right here
Their kids won't be Iraqi conscripts
Moved down while they're shitting with fear
No thought for the Kurds in the north zone
When the Turks come to do as they will
For they are American allies
And they'll come with a licence to kill.....

Aneurin Bevan, your party is dead
And the time for a new one is nigh
Will the last person Left please turn out the lights?
New Labour, we're saying goodbye.

I'm sitting at Guy Fawkes' table
As Bush and his muppet connive
And I'm filled with unspeakable anger
And I'm thinking of 1605
One message, Dishonourable Members
Who endorsed an illegal attack -
No, I don't want to bomb you like Guy did
But I'd love to send you to Iraq.

Aneurin Bevan, your party is dead
And the time for a new one is nigh
Will the last person Left please turn out the lights?
New Labour, we're saying goodbye.

We need a new socialist party -
But not the Judean People's Front
Not another small sect, but a movement
With the power to change and confront
We need an electoral system
Which gives every voter a voice
'Cos we're fed up with voting for traitors
And we have the right to a choice!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:24 PM

The Times They Are A-Changin

Come gather round people wherever you advertise
And admit that the sixties sells Chryslers and fries
And accept it that money don't talk, it just lies
If your bottom line is worth savin
Then you better start skimmin all the anthems we've known
For the stocks, they are exchangin

Hokey Pokey

You take the issues out, you put emotions in
You take yourself out of the loop
And you doctor up a spin
You do some mumbo-jumbo and you turn your views around
That's what it's all about

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of .........
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:36 PM

"I don't believe there is any danger of the Tories winning, or of a Tory PM any time soon, so that bogeyman card won't play."

me neither.. fingers crossed


however, where i live, the local Lib MP is only a handfull of votes away
from being displaced by a TORY !!!

and labour wil probably never stand a chance of being elected..


so in my local constituency,
the influence of people with misguided ideas like yours
makes me very worried..

.. put bluntly [metaphorically speaking of course..]

if 'you' cause me to be inflicted by life under a tory MP..
i might just probably cause you a bloody nose and bruised bollocks
if we ever meet in person afterwards...


so I WILL vote strategically against the tories..
not because i have any great love for blairs cowardly new labour
or ginger bloated blokes ineffectual liberals


BTW.. good song..
i've gigged with attilla.. he's a good pal of a mate of mine..


.. but can we please just concentrate in the short term on crushing the Tory party..

..then over the next decade [or much more]
we can fight to reclaim a better leftist 'party'
from the best of whats left..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:41 PM

Sorry, but since I'm not a resident of yer local district, I don't think I'll be responsible for a Tory being elected there.

Pretzel logic, that.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of pedantic cleverclogs
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:47 PM

people like 'you'..

you big silly revolutionary 'you'..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:51 PM

and please answer why you dont like oona king..!!!!????

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Frankham
Date: 01 May 05 - 02:53 PM

I couldn't find the article. I saw another one that really made me upset on the same blog. Howard Dean says "we can't get out now." and that he hopes that Bush is successful in his mission over there. What!!!!?

Re Bragg: I always had a reservation about him since Mermaid Avenue.
I don't think Woody would have liked where Bragg is going and I'm not sure he would have liked what Bragg did to his tunes. Just an opinion by someone who knew Woody.

Frank

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 May 05 - 05:10 AM

I've just looked at this thread and another one with the same number of posts, why is this one nearly all GUEST posts and not members ?

eric

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 May 05 - 06:13 AM

Some people are frightened to associate themselves with and opinion, Eric.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,ray
Date: 02 May 05 - 06:41 AM

Sorry - not a member...yet. Just droppoed in on this thread. What is the particular problem with oona King? Just how many young black jewish women are there out there who have also made it to be an MP? How progressive is it to target her for some special vilification?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 May 05 - 07:27 AM

The thread is about Billy Bragg who is against the war in Irag but recently openly supported Oona King who is for the war. No special attack on Ms King except for her political beliefs

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 02 May 05 - 08:47 AM

That's correct Jim. And I would add, just because she is black and Jewish doesn't make her progressive or even liberal (she isn't, IMO), so why would progressives support her? Because she is black, Jewish, and female? I don't think so!

As to "just guests" do you really want to go there gents? Many long time contributors here have always been "just guests" and claiming that they are guests because they don't want to stand by their opinions is ridiculous. People have many reasons for not taking cookies from internet chat forums, one very good one being the security of their computers. I'm also not such an egomaniac that I think my opinion is such hot shit that everyone needs to know it's mine.

Others mileage may vary, of course.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Ramblingsid
Date: 02 May 05 - 04:01 PM

To me the nub of this argument is very simple.

I think that those that wish to occupy the moral high ground should stop and consider that, while they may be prosperous enough to be able to contemplate another tory government and all its cuts in public services, there are many in this country who are not and for whom the Tories winning the election on Thusday would be a personal disaster.

I believe that when making their decision the electorate are entitled to consider the future of health education sure start etc etc are the issues of primary importance to us.

Mistakes may or may not have been made by the Labour Government post 9/11 - history will tell. In the meantime I am more than happy to support a government whose values and policies are intended to be for the benefit of the many and the fight against a tory philosophy that is based upon privelige for the few.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Terry K
Date: 03 May 05 - 03:45 AM

Sid, you're rambling again. You can't possibly support the current regime based on traditional stereotypes because they simply do not fit the traditional Labour stereotype. Support them by all means, but please base your support on something material.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 May 05 - 10:23 AM

The more I read here, the more I think I'll be voting Monster Raving Loony Party.... after all, their policies have formerly included all day opening for pubs and passports for pets - both policies that were approved and credit taken by other parties.....

LTS

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 05 - 11:03 AM

As well as building a huge dome over Britain to keep out the rain, whats next the abolishen of slavery???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: shepherdlass
Date: 03 May 05 - 01:37 PM

The sad thing is that if Billy votes New Labour he won't be keeping out the Tories. New Labour is fundamentally Thatcherism with a few social justice bells and whistles to keep their once-core supporters quiet. Haven't noticed the restoration of that many REAL benefits for the many at the expense of the few: even the lovely Gordon's much-quoted Child Benefit increase didn't benefit parents on Income Support (the means testers just take it off at the other end).

Sorry, this is turning back into a BS thread, but I worry that the thought of keeping a group of people from power because they bear a certain name means that we vote in people with near identical principles and a name we like more.

Yours
An ex-Labour stalwart

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 06:19 AM

Bragg is a sell-out charlatan. Not to mention a very poor artist, if that is the right word. Why have folk lovers entertained thig guy for so long?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,defender of the Bragg
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 07:07 AM

Bragg is only human,
he's got every right to be as much a two faced misguided cunt
as the rest of us.


..as for the quality of his artistry,

are you any better and getting as much work & money as he is for it ?




..thought not!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 08:35 AM

are you any better and getting as much work & money as he is for it ?

And there speaks the new capitalist face of Billy Bragg! Socialist Front Unite My Arse.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,defender of the bragg
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 08:45 AM

He is ex army you freak and a talented singer, a better man than you will ever be!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 08:46 AM

Erm...ex army, oh yes...his parents paid £175.00 for him to leave after ONE MONTH! Oh yes, he's a hero.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 10:45 AM

Well said, Shepherdlass, New-Labour = New-Tory.

Our fundamental problem is that we do NOT live in a democracy. A democracy is where your vote counts. (See a dictionary).

Our constituency system is set up to stifle any and all minor opinions and skews the result so much that only 2 parties have a chance of winning. And when those 2 parties are virtually indistinguishable......what's the point?

And then they wonder why young people don't vote!

Emigrate, I say....but where to....they're just as bad....oh b*gger!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,Billy Braggs an alright bloke mate, innit !
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:35 AM

oi guest mate


you seem to be more concerned about Billy Bragg
than is normal or healthy..

you a disillusioned fan..?

was he to busy to sign your autograph book last time you saw him ?

or are you a deranged stalker with a court order
out on you to keep a safe distance from him ??

or what ???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:22 PM

Well anyone who doesn't like Bragg MUST by default be a stalker, dissulsioned fan...

bragg is crap. i mean, c'mon, listen to his 'music' he is utter crap and i don't liek folkies who persist on putting this man on a pedastal of folk, when frankly, there are far better artists down my local.

He is a charlatan. Oh but i must not forget he is a hero, ex army and all, you know, one month and £175 and he was out of there. perhaps his fellow squaddies thought less of his music than he thought of them?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 06:25 PM

Whey ye bugga! Aah thowt aah wez the ownly porson in the country what cudden't stand the two-faced little oik

Aah knaa loads of folkies and others whe've spent years and years in the armed forces and doon mines and in shipyards workin' damned hard te mek a livin' while him and his like prattle on aboot 'the workin' man'

Billy Bragg waddent knaa a workin' man if he kicked his talentless skinny arse.

And..... Aah divvent knaa whe thinks that Bragg is a 'FOLK' legend -Carthy is a legend, Swarbrick is a legend, Scan Tester, Billie Pigg, THEY wez legends!!! Billie Bragg?? Legend? My arse! He lives in a mansion on a cliff-top in Dorset

And.....While we're on the subject! Has anybody heard a word of apology from Pete Coe about that piece of tat "We'll Have A May-Day Then" Aye pal!! Aall the may-days since 1997 are blighted - The culture secretary who thinks England dizzent have a culture - The Labour government who have ruined entertainment for the 'folk of this country at every turn,

AND.... Tessa Bloody Jowell (Aye THAT culture secretary) got away with it AGAIN!!! They've aal got their fingers in a pot somewhere

And..... And.... ....and John Prescott - Say nee mair!!