BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives

Subject: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Amos
Date: 06 May 05 - 07:26 PM

A recent mailing from the office of one brave Congressman who rebuked the sorry buggers who passed the hypocritically -named REAL ID Act hidden inside other legislation like a sneak attack:

*(Washington, D.C.)* - Today, Congressman Robert Wexler (D-FL) voted
against the emergency supplemental appropriations conference report
(H.R. 1268), which passed the House by a vote of 368 to 58. This bill
included a provision sponsored by Congressman James Sensenbrenner (R-WI)
known as the REAL ID Act, which would institute controversial
immigration changes. REAL ID removes the right of judicial review -
including habeas corpus - for people fleeing persecution, undermines the
privacy rights of even native-born Americans, burdens the states with
complex and unfunded ID requirements, makes it harder for battered women
to hide from their abusers, scapegoats the immigrant community and does
nothing to address the actual problem of border security and enforcement
in the United States.



The Republican leadership shamelessly chose to bundle important aid with
controversial new legislation forcing members of Congress to
thoughtlessly consent to REAL ID in order to support tsunami assistance,
increased funding for military personnel - including increased military
death gratuities and life insurance benefits for active duty troops.



In December 2004, Congress passed the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism
Prevention Act of 2004, which implemented the core recommendations of
the 9/11 Commission. Despite the fact that our government has barely
begun to implement this important legislation, the REAL ID Act would
delete key security-related provisions in the Intelligence Reform Act
that had the overwhelming support of both parties in the House and
Senate. These provisions included minimum standards for driver's
licenses and identification cards necessary to gain access to federal
facilities, identification procedures to board a plane and a thorough
non-partisan study on potential weaknesses in the U.S. asylum system.



"While I am heartened that 57 of my colleagues joined me in opposing
REAL ID, I am baffled that so many Democrats caved in to the
parliamentary tricks of the Republican leadership. Though I have come to
expect as much from Republicans, by supporting the conference report in
spite of the REAL ID poison pill, Democrats have abandoned our core
values and failed to stand up for the rights to privacy, fair treatment
under the law and freedom from persecution upon which our country was
founded. It is tragic irony on the very anniversary Yom HaShoa, the day
we remember the horrors of the Holocaust, we are shutting the door to
victims of persecution. We all support strengthened border security. We
all support our brave military. And we all would like to help the
victims of the devastating tsunami. However, to vote for REAL ID,
without even an honest debate on the issue, is insulting to Americans,
who sent us here to represent them. We were not elected to rubber stamp
anything just because we support /part/ of it," Wexler said.



REAL ID was opposed by over 600 groups nationwide, including by National
Conference of State Legislatures, National Council of La Raza, ACLU,
Amnesty International, Service Employees International Union, People for
the American Way, Anti-Defamation League, B'nai B'rith International,
Jewish Labor Committee, American Jewish Committee, American Jewish
Congress, Jewish Community Relations Council of Greater Miami (Jewish
Federation), Jewish Council for Public Affairs, Jewish Labor
Committee, and the AFL-CIO.



/Congressman Wexler is a senior member of the House International
Relations Committee and is a member of the House Judiciary Committee. /



*-30-*

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Amos
Date: 06 May 05 - 07:31 PM

Further from one James Moyer on the same subject, written to Declan Mc Cullagh:

With the approval of the REAL ID Act, I believe it's time to place blame
of it passage and make sure that Congress knows that there are people
who still believe in liberty and care about their privacy.

For this reason, I believe that we (those who care) should begin a
campaign against Wisconsin Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, to make sure
that he loses the September 2006 Congressional Primary.

We must make it clear, to the people of the 5th Wisconsin district, that
Rep. Sensenbrenner, is directly responsible for the creation of the
National ID Card, through his sponsorship and work on the REAL ID Act.

We must make it clear that Rep. Sensenbrenner is putting American's
identities and lives at stake, by fomenting the introduction of RFID
based passports (a result of his "leadership" as chair of the House
Judiciary Committee.)

And finally, we must make it clear to people of faith in his district,
that he is *most* responsible for paving the way toward the Mark of the
Beast, as predicted in the book of Revelations, and that, like the Mark
of the Beast, no American shall be able to "buy or sell" without one of
Jim Sensenbrenner's "REAL IDs." There should be no doubt his work on the
REAL ID Act is entirely unchristian.

By aggressively targeting Jim Sensenbrenner next year, we shall make it
clear to leadership that we are demanding that they take liberty and
privacy needs into account. We can further awake the sleeping giant of
Christians who are concerned about National ID card issues, but haven't
found a medium for voicing their concerns.

Now's the time to begin such a campaign, so that everyone is well aware
of Sensenbrenner's dastardly REAL ID act. By September 2006 every
churchgoer in the Wisconsin 5th shall be aware of it as well.

Anyone who wants to work on this project is more than welcome to get in
touch with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 05 - 07:41 PM

There may be lots of camp space for people who do not have the ID, alien OR American. Tell me this: Why are Americans watching their country being hijacked? Their Constitution being shit on by these bastards?

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 05 - 07:45 PM

I am sure the usual apologists will be in here shortly to speak on behalf of this Neocon crap. What is happening to your country?

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 05 - 07:54 PM

So this is coming true, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: DougR
Date: 06 May 05 - 07:56 PM

Our country is in very good shape, thank you very much brucie.

Amos: you don't carry a driver's license when you drive your vehicle? Do you have a Social Security card?

Real I.D., big deal.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 05 - 08:00 PM

"I am sure the usual apologists will be in here shortly to speak on behalf of this Neocon crap."

One down.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 05 - 08:06 PM

Doug,

Twenty years from now when Amos--who by then will have been forced by YOUR government to carry his 'handy-dandy one size fits all and performs all functions from buying food to paying mortgage' card--says something that government doesn't like, someone can go to the Big Computer in Washington and simply erase Amos. You guys and gals are being brought into line and many of you can't see it.

You used to be a nation of men and women determined to speak your minds and forge your futures. What the hell has happened to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Bobert
Date: 06 May 05 - 09:13 PM

Simple, brucie...

They are completely brainwashed with 5 years of constant messages that they parrot without any thought to what they actually say...

If Karl Rove thinks it up and gets Bush to say it, they will parrot it... Doesn'r really amtter what it is... Bush could come out tomorrow and say that sky id grteen and they'd just parrot the "Sky is green" line until they fall asleep sayin' it...

Like my poor pal, Dougie... Anyone other than me seein' that he is slippin' further and futher into the abyiss of parrotism? I mean, he once seemed to have some original thoughts but no more...

"The country is in very good shape"???....

What country has he moved to, anyway???...

Surely ain't this one which is in terrible shape... Lowest approval numbers for a president at 100 days into a term ever... The economy going south... The rich screwing what's left of the ragtag middle class... Inflation soaring... Interst rates getting ready to soar... Health socts killing us while the health provider and drug companies are making all time big profits... Gas prices up 60% over the last 4 years while thre oil comapnies profits soarin'... War, war, and more wars....

Like where is the "Country is in great shape'????..............

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 05 - 09:35 AM

Brucie

If they erase me, can I come sleep on your couch?

I think this story is shameful, too.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 05 - 02:26 PM

Absolutely. I don't doubt there will be many of my American friends looking for 'refuge' when they get cancelled. This crap is catching upi and it's going to take over. Just a matter of time. Unless y'all find some way to get rid of the government you have, reverse some laws and take power away from banks.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 05 - 12:29 PM

Your rights are being eroded and no one seems to give a shit. What has happened to the people of the USA? When the British did this sorta crap to you--well, you overthrew them. Did the events of 9/11 so shake the American people that they will now willingly give up their freedom for a perceived security? Jesus Christ. (And that's a prayer, BTW.)

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 05 - 12:38 PM

9/11 was wrong, very wrong. But the outcome is worse. USA has murdered thousands of innocents in the name of 9/11. Far more than died in 9/11. But they fail to see the carnage being wreaked in their name. Or maybe they don't fail to see it, they choose not to see it.

They are so wrapped up in percieved threats, they justify wholescale murder of unarmed civilians. I reckon they would quite happily bomb the bejaysus out of every country in the world, on the basis that they would be safer being the only ones alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 08 May 05 - 12:41 PM

08 May 05 - 12:29 PM

That was my post.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 09 May 05 - 10:17 AM

Why are Americans not concerned about this?

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 05 - 11:05 AM

Because they lost the ability to care somewhere along the line. Let's hope they never require help in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 09 May 05 - 11:13 AM

Amos, if you can get the mountain lion off the couch, it's all yours. Damn thing is mean. She's havin' trouble gettin' used to me. Maybe she'll take a liking to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 09 May 05 - 11:15 AM

At least I THINK it's a she. Haven't been able to get close enough to find out.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Hrothgar
Date: 10 May 05 - 06:58 AM

brucie, if it's female, it is far more likely to be dangerous.

Or, if it's dangerous, it is far more likely to be female.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:00 AM

bruce, are you sure thats a mountain lion and not a feral goat? some of them are quite .. shaggy.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 May 05 - 10:15 AM

sorry, Amos. this was an important threadand here I am making comments about goats. i will butt out.

apologies

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 05 - 12:38 PM

Brucie,

I don't think you would be correct in assuming that just because people don't post to this thread and others like it, that we and other Americans don't care about what's going on with our nation and the world.

I care very much. And maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe some Americans are like victims of domestic abuse who shut down their emotions because they have been messed over so much.

Or to use another analogy, maybe some of us are still in recovery mode from a devastating traumatic injury to our souls. After all [IMO] we were screwed over in the last two presidential campaigns.

Maybe others aren't posting to threads like this because-like me- they are very VERY pessimistic about the ability of 'regular' folks to do anything about what is going on now.

I'm tired of large issues that I feel I may not be able to impact. And so I decided to focus the little energy I have on trying to make small positive changes in my little corner of this big world.

And maybe it is an age thing. Hopefully, some younger people will take my place.

This doesn't make any of this right. But it also doesn't mean that I [and others who may feel like me] don't realize that there is a lot that is wrong with our beloved nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 10 May 05 - 05:37 PM

Well, it's a good thing the US had people like King and organizations like NAACP to get the ball rolling way back when. Your country is being stolen and the American people are NOT dealing with it. Y'all gonna wait too long on this one and by the time enough people wake up to it--hey, it's gonna be a done deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: DougR
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:13 PM

We have debated this issue before and my opinion today is the same as it was then. I have no objection to a National I. D. card. I see it as a tool to help solve the immigration problem that we have in the U. S., and as a tool for homeland security.

Those who oppose it are the usual "The Sky is Falling" crowd. Well, it ain't fell yet, and it ain't going to.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:19 PM

"and as a tool for homeland security."

And that, I think, is precisely what you should be worried about.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Amos
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:28 PM

Dear Doug:

Abuse is abuse and loss of freedom is loss of freedom, whether anyone denies it or doesn't. No is claiming the sky is falling. Your repetitive invocation of that condescending andf sarcastic mantra is verging on the idiotic. I think you fail to see what is happening just before your eyes.

Your boy Bush runs around the world intoning the glories of democracy while his cronies dismantle it at home with his complete blessings. You haven't begun to hear the tales yet. That is simply because none is so deaf as he who will not, etcetera.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Amos
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:00 PM

From a correspondent to the "IP List":

>Perhaps more to the point, since passage of Real ID appears to be a
>virtual certainty, concerned persons should be prepared to engage
>where possible in support of the various court challenges to Real ID
>(on numerous different grounds) that thankfully will certainly
>follow.
>
>Of course, if Frist and his minions get their way, they'll populate
>the judiciary with their sycophants deluxe -- the goal being to turn
>the federal courts into rubber stamps for Frist's particularly
>intolerant distortion of patriotism.
>
>"For the safety and glory of the Homeland -- your papers, please."
>
>And to think, exactly sixty years ago we were celebrating victory
>over a regime where internal passports and identity papers were
>foundations for a repressive lifestyle that was supposed to last for
>a thousand years.
>

Dougie's vision of a land safe from unruly immigrants is similar to the correspondents historical reflection. Dougie is a good American of course, and will not be troubled. Much as good Germans were not. And their sky was not falling either, until it did.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 10 May 05 - 11:13 PM

To add to what Amos wrote, please note that never before has a government had the ability to sever the ability of people to talk with each other--and sever it completely. I think America is entering a dark age, an age from which there will be no exit. IMO, Doug, this is unlike anything this world has seen before. I think it is more dangerous that the Nazi scourge, the Mongol invasions of Europe, the Roman Empire. The ID cards are only a step in what will be erased from books and computers. I think it involves the complete and total enslavement of this planet and all the people on it. I hope--in my heart and before God--that I am a paranoid lunatic. But ya know, I don't think I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: frogprince
Date: 10 May 05 - 11:48 PM

I'm certainly not crazy about the "real ID"; but as things already stand, I don't know that we can keep any information about ourselves away from anyone who really wants it. And pity the person whose name and personal data are coincidentally close to that of a felon or anyone on Big Bro's shit list; even in our local "backwater" area, there are totally "clean" people fighting to stay out of jail because there first and last names match characters with bad records; supposedly cleared one day, cops at the door again the next.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: dianavan
Date: 11 May 05 - 12:20 AM

I think you're right, Azizi, its an age thing. If the only changes you can make are in your own neighborhood, at least you're doing something. Thats whats called grass-roots action. You do a little something and then your neighbor gets the idea and does a little something, too.

I'm doing what I can at the community level and the spin-off is astounding. I've lived in this city for ten years and never thought in terms of leaving my mark (or footprint, if you will) but I have watched my little projects grow and become pilot projects for the city. I have created an outdoor classroom and now it is the goal of the school board to create outdoor classrooms in every elementary school. I have re-claimed the boulevard with plants and trees and flowers. Now the whole block is doing it. Its about growing and learning.

I think that you have to be true to yourself and do what you love doing. If it benefits the community, you are doing your part to make your world a little more livable. What else can you do?

...and don't forget to vote - even if it is for the lesser of two evils. Take part in peaceful protests, write your congressman. Educate your children. Never take freedom for granted because if you do, it will surely escape you. Sing about it, dance about it but whatever you do, enjoy the gift that is yours today. It won't be here forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Amos
Date: 11 May 05 - 12:55 AM

Citizen:

We have less than 48 hours to stop our nation from having a National
ID card
scheme. Do we really want to have the same ID system as Communist
China? I
think not.

The US Senate is scheduled to vote this Tuesday on the Real ID Act.   
They've
never debated the bill. Most of them haven't even bothered to read it.
Nevertheless, they're going to pass it: unless we do something to
stop them

Real ID is a very, very real national identification card.

This isn't going to be easy, but we need to put the Senate on notice
that if
they vote for Real ID, they're voting in favor of a National ID Card.

Take immediate action:

http://www.unRealID.com

··· --- ··· ··· --- ···
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: DougR
Date: 11 May 05 - 12:56 AM

Amos, brucie: I respect your right to oppose Federal ID, though where brucie comes into this is beyond me. I don't believe laws passed in this country affect Canadians, and Canada, the perfect country, would never pass such a law I'm sure. Why? Because Canadians are perfect people, of course. They have no bad guys trying to blow up their country.

And Amos, my reference to the possibility of the sky falling is no more tireing than your constant harping on what you percieve to be disasterous moves by the Bush administration. You simply cannot put the last two elections behind you and admit you were not on the winning side. Perhaps you will be on the winning side next time ...but I doubt it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 05 - 01:05 AM

Doug,

I come into this as a citizen of the world. I have been going to bed at night for decades living next to the greatest nuclear threat the world has ever known. The largest military that has already demonstrated its ability and will to invade whomever it wants. So don't even think of trying that bullshit on me. Take more than you and the American 'right' to make me shutup.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 05 - 01:19 AM

I think some group of people have made Americans so afraid that they will trade their Constitution and freedom for a perceived security. I think that Bush is too stupid to dream any of this up. He has been fed this stuff and he follows, not leads. Even you will admit that Bush is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. So who really IS calling the shots, Doug. Answer that for me. Because sure as hell it isn't the American people OR the American Constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 05 - 01:28 AM

brucie,

The american LEFT has been telling us for years that we really did not need the right to bear arms, since times had changed, and we would be much safer without them. So, now you want us to protect the Constitution, after all those decades of the Left saying we would be safer if we just got rid of a right given us in the Bill of Rights?

How about the promise of the Roosevelt administration that the Social Security number would never be used as identification?

I am far more worried what a Hillary Clinton administration will do with a national ID and the camps you are so concerned with than the Bush administartion.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 05 - 01:45 AM

I am not left wing (as you keep saying). You have this bloody fixation that anyone who disagrees with the USA is left wing. And if you say that to me again I will tell you to fuck off and stop reading your posts again. Connect the friggin' dots.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 05 - 02:26 AM

Read my first paragraph- I DID NOT say YOU were left wing, just that the american Left had been undermining the Constitution for the last 40 years or so.

I don't see why you complain- there is a effort here on mudcat for people to define their opponents in whatever terms are thought usefull- like Bushite for anyone who ever agreed with ANYTHING that Bush supports, and then define them as always agreeing 100%, blindly, even when that is a proven falsehood. I will gladly defend your right NOT to be left wing, when you defend mine to be judged on the stands I TAKE, rather than those assigned to me by others.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Amos
Date: 11 May 05 - 09:03 AM

ust that the american Left had been undermining the Constitution for the last 40 years or so.

BBruce, that's a pretty sweeping thing to claim. Specifically what actions are you referring to, and how have they undermined the Constitution? PRe-empting States' rights on identification requirements and curtailing the right of people to travel strikes me as pretty undermining too. The Federal government now wants to legislate the nature of marriage and put it in the COnstitution. Seems to me undermining is proceeding at a pretty heady clip, but not by the left wing, who ever that is.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Amos
Date: 11 May 05 - 09:06 AM

Excerpt from this speech:

The ``REAL ID'' Act--A Real Nightmare for DoD

(By LTC Margaret D. Stock, USAR)

   If you watched or heard the congressional debate over H.R. 418, the ``REAL ID Act of 2005,'' you might have thought this proposed law--which passed the House of Representatives Friday, February 11, 2005, by a vote of 261-161--was all about stopping terrorists from getting on airplanes. But you would be wrong. This bill--which sets new rules for state motor vehicle departments (DMVs)--promises to be more of a nightmare for DoD than a deterrent to any terrorists.

   Consider this language, which is found in the section creating federal standards for state driver's licenses and identification cards:

   ``Beginning 3 years after the date of the enactment of this Act, a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a State to any person unless the State is meeting the requirements of this section.''

   No state currently meets the requirements of the proposed law, and it's unlikely that many will be able to comply within three years. the ``REAL ID'' Act would require, among other things, that each state create an expensive new computer system for issuing state driver's licenses and identification cards; obtain security clearances for its DMV employees; verify with the issuing agency the validity of each document offered by an applicant in support of a driver's license application; put digital photos on all licenses; print the principal residence of the applicant on the face of the license; ensure that all prior licenses have been terminated before issuing a new one; verify the immigration status of all applicants; and color-code licenses to show that the state has complied with the law. While all these goals may be laudable, achieving them any time soon is almost impossible, particularly within three year. And yet any license issued in violation of this law cannot be used ``for any official'' federal purpose unless a special waiver is granted by the secretary of homeland security.

   Here are some ``official'' federal purposes for which state driver's licenses and identification cards are commonly used by military members, their families, and their friends:

   Enlisting in the military; obtaining an initial military identification card; Obtaining a U.S. passport; voting in a federal election; registering a vehicle on a military installation; entering a military installation; driving on a military installation; entering a federal building; writing a check to a federal agency; obtaining federal firearms licenses; boarding an airplane; boarding an Amtrak train; or obtaining federal hunting or fishing licenses.

   If this law passes, military members and their families won't be able to do any of these things with their state driver's licenses and ID cards--unless they are lucky enough to be residents of a state that manages to meet the three-year deadline for compliance.

   Military personnel will be harmed by this law in other ways as well: Deployments often prevent soldiers from renewing their licenses in a timely manner, and many states give them ``automatic extensions.'' These extensions would be barred. Many states currently issue licenses to military members that are ``valid without photo.'' This practice will not be barred by federal law. The REAL ID Act on its face also bars military police and other federal law enforcement officials from using state driver's licenses and ID cards to identify criminal suspects.

   At a time when federal and state budgets are under tremendous pressure, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates the cost of complying with ``REAL ID'' to be in excess of $120 million--$20 million more than the cost of complying with the legislation enacted last year in Public Law 108-458, the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004. This CBO estimate, however, is probably a vast underestimate of the true cost of the proposed law. Worse, Congress has not agreed to pay for the required upgrades to state DMV systems, making ``REAL ID'' yet another ``massive unfunded mandate,'' according to both the National Governor's Association and the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators. If the federal government isn't going to pay to implement this law, most states won't be able to pay for it without raising taxes--and all of their residents will be punished accordingly.

   Indirectly, however, DoD will suffer--because this law threatens to disrupt thousands of routine yet official acts that occur daily on every military post in the world. Those who already have military ID cards or who carry a passport around at all times can avoid some of the problems with this law--but a US passport or military ID doesn't give a person the right to drive on a military base. Also, anyone without a passport or other Federal ID prior to the effective date of the law will have difficulty obtaining one unless she can produce some other valid government-issued picture identification, such as a foreign passport. Strangely, this law will make it easier for foreigners or naturalized citizens to travel than native-born Americans: The law allows the use of a foreign passport, but bars the use of American state-issued licenses and identification cards.



   REAL ID's sponsors claim the law will stop terrorists from getting on airplanes. The flaw in this logic is that the 9/11 terrorists did not need state driver's licenses to board the airplanes they hijacked--they could have used their foreign passports, and at least one of them did. Is meeting a false ``security gap'' a reason to spend millions forcing the states to conform to the ``REAL ID'' requirements?

---

Abrogating State authority to lower than a foregin nation? Sounds pretty under-miny to me.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 05 - 10:17 AM

"I will gladly defend your right NOT to be left wing, when you defend mine to be judged on the stands I TAKE, rather than those assigned to me by others."

You had better learn to defend your own rights. They are the ones being stripped. And as a general atatement, I don't relly wish to engage in conversation with you at all. You think everything's ducky. I happen not to. I don't give a rat's ass who assingns what roles to you, and whether you perceive me to be left wing or not is a matter of no import to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 11 May 05 - 10:23 AM

The above was me.

PS I think your function here is to sidetrack issues. Tell those who tug your chain that it isn't working anymore.

Camps
National IDs
Military enforcement of a Neocon takeover
Suspension of your Constitution

. . . caused by a major incident in approximately two to two and a half years. Incident caused by elements within your government. Hey, if I'm wrong, you get to laugh about it. If I'm right, you will regret having been in bed with the philosophy of your present regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:25 PM

From a contributor to another list:

Note how the official White House statement on the bill containing the
controversial REAL ID Act makes no mention of it or anything relating to
'Homeland Security.'

From:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/05/20050511-5.html


> Statement on H.R. 1268, the "Emergency Supplemental Appropriations
> Act for
> Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005"
>
> On Wednesday, May 11 2005, the President signed into law:
>
> H.R. 1268, the "Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for
> Defense, the
> Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005" which provides
> emergency
> supplemental FY 2005 appropriations for military operations, relief
> and
> reconstruction, and related activities critical to building stable
> democracies
> in Iraq and Afghanistan. This Act also provides funds to assist
> those suffered
> in the aftermath of the tsunami in the Indian Ocean in December 2004.
>

(that's all they said)

Yes, by burying the REAL ID Act in the 'must pass' military spending
bill, our wonderful legislators did another rope-a-dope on the American
public.

And in this case, as I (and others) have written recently, their
efforts on enacting national ID won't do much to improve security anyway.

-rick
Infowarrior.org

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:36 PM

"relief and reconstruction, and related activities critical to building stable democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan."

If I was an American, I'd be a bit more worried about building a stable democracy in the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: dianavan
Date: 13 May 05 - 10:08 PM

A stable democracy??? Whats that?

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 05 - 10:11 PM

The horses get to vote, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 13 May 05 - 10:34 PM

In Canada we have so many bloody cards and id's one would be a blessing. They all seem to be stolen,copied, and sold quite easily by criminals and terrorists. I would love to carry just one id I have to have four just to go to work.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 05 - 02:18 PM

From the current edition of Slate/ :

What if Congress resurrected one of the most ill-conceived laws of the McCarthy era and nobody noticed? In 1952, the House and Senate passed the McCarran-Walter Act, which created an ideological litmus test for entry to the United States by barring foreigners with disfavored ideas or affiliations. The law denied admission to communists and anarchists, among others. For four decades, it was invoked to keep out hundreds of people, including writers (Carlos Fuentes, Gabriel García Márquez), scholars (Belgian economist Ernst Mandel), politicians (Ireland's Gerry Adams, Nicaragua's Tomas Borge), and even a former NATO general (Italy's Nino Pasti). Congress repealed the McCarran-Walter Act in 1990 with great fanfare about eliminating thought-control at the border.

But an attachment to a bill that supplements funds for Iraq, passed by Congress and now on the president's desk, would allow the United States once again to keep out and to deport foreign nationals not for their conduct, but for their politics—their ideas, their speech, and the groups with which they associate. Other attachments to the Iraq spending bill have gotten attention, for imposing mandatory standards on the issuance of driver's licenses and for altering the legal rules for asylum. But the expanded grounds for deportation and exclusion received virtually no discussion.

Where the McCarran-Walter Act's concern was communists and anarchists, the new law ostensibly focuses on terrorists. By comparison, it makes the Patriot Act look good. That law imposed guilt by association on those who provided material support to a short list of groups specifically designated as terrorist by the secretary of state. This one scraps the designated list for a definition of a terrorist organization so broad that it includes virtually any group that has ever threatened to use violence. Any foreigner can be deported for "endorsing or espousing terrorist activity," for "persuad[ing] others to … support a terrorist organization," for being a "member of a terrorist organization," and for being a "representative" of a "political, social, or other group that endorses or espouses terrorist activity." Under the Patriot Act, speech and membership in a terrorist group were grounds for preventing foreigners from entering the country, but not for deporting those who already live here and are protected by the First Amendment. The new law is also retroactive, so people can be deported today for things they did or said lawfully years ago. And punishment extends even to spouses and children, who may be expelled simply for having a spouse or parent who advocated a proscribed idea or belonged to a proscribed group. (...)

---

So much for freeing the nation from thought control. We once a country that was brave enough to stand up to any verbal speech, and considered that guaranteeing such freedom was well worth the price of allowing loose cannons the same freedom.

Now, voicing the wrong ideas can put you in a legal category of persona non grata/ How come the Bush administration is so afraid of the free exchange of thought among adult Americans?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 05 - 02:20 PM

Another afterthought from the same place:

"From the perspective of safeguarding civil liberties, however, the expansion of the grounds for deportation is by far more egregious. Fifteen years ago, when Congress repealed the McCarran-Walter Act, it seemed that our lawmakers had finally learned a history lesson. Each time the law was invoked to bar a writer like Gabriel García Márquez or a politician like Gerry Adams, the person and his ideas got more attention than he had previously enjoyed. And each refusal of entry was widely decried as hypocrisy. Now, however, it appears that all Congress learned from history is that when you want to resurrect censorship at the border, you should do so while no one is looking."


A

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 05 - 10:42 PM

From another subscriber to the IP list:

REAL ID



The United States will get a national ID card. The REAL ID Act
establishes uniform standards for state driver's licenses, to go into
effect in three years, effectively creating a national ID card. It's
a bad idea, and is going to make us all less safe. It's also very
expensive. And it all happened without any serious debate in Congress.

I've already written about national IDs. I've written about the
fallacies of identification as a security tool. I'm not going to
repeat myself here, and I urge everyone who is interested to read
those essays (links at the end). Remember, the question to ask is
not whether a national ID will do any good; the question to ask is
whether the good it does is worth the cost. By that measure, a
national ID is a lousy security trade-off. And everyone needs to
understand why.

Aside from the generalities in my previous essays, there are
specifics about REAL ID that make for bad security.

The REAL ID Act requires driver's licenses to include a "common
machine-readable technology." This will, of course, make identity
theft easier. Already some hotels take photocopies of your ID when
you check in, and some bars scan your ID when you try to buy a
drink. Since the U.S. has no data protection law, those businesses
are free to resell that data to data brokers like ChoicePoint and
Acxiom. And they will; it would be bad business not to. It actually
doesn't matter how well the states and federal government protect the
data on driver's licenses, as there will be parallel commercial
databases with the same information.

(Those who point to European countries with national IDs need to pay
attention to this point. European countries have a strong legal
framework for data privacy and protection. This is why the American
experience will be very different than the European experience, and a
much more serious danger to society.)

Even worse, there's likely to be an RFID chip in these licenses. The
same specification for RFID chips embedded in passports includes
details about embedding RFID chips in driver's licenses. I expect
the federal government will require states to do this, with all of
the associated security problems (e.g., surreptitious access).

REAL ID requires that driver's licenses contain actual addresses, and
no post office boxes. There are no exceptions made for judges or
police -- even undercover police officers. This seems like a major
unnecessary security risk.

REAL ID also prohibits states from issuing driver's licenses to
illegal aliens. This makes no sense, and will only result in these
illegal aliens driving without licenses -- which isn't going to help
anyone's security. (This is an interesting insecurity, and is a
direct result of trying to take   a document that is a specific
permission to drive an automobile, and turning it into a general
identification device.)

REAL ID is expensive. It's an unfunded mandate: the federal
government is forcing the states to spend their own money to comply
with the act. I've seen estimates that the cost to the states of
complying with REAL ID will be tens of billions. That's money that
can't be spent on actual security.

And the wackiest thing is that none of this is required. In October
2004, the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004
was signed into law. That law included stronger security measures
for driver's licenses, the security measures recommended by the 9/11
Commission Report. That's already done. It's already law.

REAL ID goes way beyond that. It's a huge power-grab by the federal
government over the states' systems for issuing driver's licenses.

REAL ID doesn't go into effect until three years after it becomes
law, but I expect things to be much worse by then. One of my fears
is that this new uniform driver's license will bring a new level of
"show me your papers" checks by the government. Already you can't
fly without an ID, even though no one has ever explained how that ID
check makes airplane terrorism any harder. I have previously written
about Secure Flight, another lousy security system that tries to
match airline passengers against terrorist watch lists. I've already
heard rumblings about requiring states to check identities against
"government databases" before issuing driver's licenses. I'm sure
Secure Flight will be used for cruise ships, trains, and possibly
even subways. Combine REAL ID with Secure Flight and you have an
unprecedented system for broad surveillance of the population.

Is there anyone who would feel safer under this kind of police state?

Americans overwhelmingly reject national IDs in general, and there's
an enormous amount of opposition to the REAL ID Act.

If you haven't heard much about REAL ID in the newspapers, that's not
an accident. The politics of REAL ID was almost surreal. It was
voted down last fall, but was reintroduced and attached to
legislation that funds military actions in Iraq. This was a "must-
pass" piece of legislation, which means that there was no debate on
REAL ID. No hearings, no debates in committees, no debates on the
floor. Nothing. And it's now law.

We're not defeated, though. REAL ID can be fought in other ways: via
funding, in the courts, etc. Those seriously interested in this
issue are invited to attend an EPIC-sponsored event in Washington,
DC, on the topic on June 6th. I'll be there.

Text of the REAL ID Act:


Congressional Research Services analysis:


My previous writings on identification and national IDs:

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 16 May 05 - 10:43 PM

From Declan McCullagh:

What does that mean for me?
Starting three years from now, if you live or work in the United
States, you'll need a federally approved ID card to travel on an
airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments, or
take advantage of nearly any government service. Practically
speaking, your driver's license likely will have to be reissued to
meet federal standards.

The Real ID Act hands the Department of Homeland Security the power
to set these standards and determine whether state drivers' licenses
and other ID cards pass muster. Only ID cards approved by Homeland
Security can be accepted "for any official purpose" by the feds.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 05 - 03:42 PM

Fromt he Times:



http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-realid31may31.story
Federal ID Act May Be Flawed

The new law could actually increase the risk of a person's identity
being stolen, critics say.

By Joseph Menn
Times Staff Writer

May 31, 2005

A federal law designed to make it harder to assume someone else's
identity may instead have the opposite effect, critics of the measure
say.

The Real ID Act, attached to a crucial bill for military spending and
tsunami relief that was signed by President Bush on May 11, sets new
rules for issuing driver's licenses and requires states to share
electronic access to their records.

The standards are intended to weed out impostors applying for
licenses, in part by requiring state employees to check on the
validity of birth certificates and other supporting documents. After
states adopt the necessary changes, anyone applying for or renewing a
license will get one reflecting the new standards.

But once the law takes full effect three years from now, it will also
give many more bureaucrats access to personal information on people
nationwide. And it will add more data to each file — including
digital copies of documents with birth and address information.

To some industry experts and activists concerned about the fast-
growing crime of identity theft, putting so much data before more
eyes guarantees abuse at a time when people are increasingly
concerned about who sees their personal information and how it gets
used.

"It's a gigantic treasure trove for those who are bent on obtaining
data for the purpose of creating fake identities," said Beth Givens
of the nonprofit Privacy Rights Clearinghouse. Armed with a
stranger's name, Social Security number and date of birth, it's not
hard for fraudsters to take out bogus loans that can wreck a victim's
credit record.

The new licenses themselves must contain some data — as yet
unspecified — that can be scanned electronically by a device like a
credit card reader. Virtually all states make machine-readable cards
now, but they use differing technologies.

Critics predict the standardization will prompt many more merchants
to scan customer licenses and then pass on the information to such
data brokers as ChoicePoint Inc. and LexisNexis. The databases of
both ChoicePoint and LexisNexis have been exploited by identity thieves.

"There's no data-protection law, so it can be sold to companies like
ChoicePoint," said Bruce Schneier, the author of several books on
security technology. "It would be silly not to, since it's a revenue
stream."

The concerns of privacy advocates got little airing before the bill
became law, and some are already working to overturn it with new
legislation of their own.

Debate on the measure was sharply limited by political maneuvering,
and other issues raised by the act drew more fire. Greater attention
went to the bill's changes in the procedures for people requesting
political asylum, its treatment of other immigrants, and what some
decried on civil liberties grounds as a move toward a national
identification card.
....

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 05 - 09:37 PM

To add one more, and more surreal, element to this issue: I can EASILY foresee a day not too far off when "for our safety" against ID theft and other injurious practices, an ID chip will be placed just under the skin on our foreheads or near the hairline or behind an ear. No, not in our arms or shoulders or fingers- it will have to be placed on a body part we cannot do without. (There are seemingly some people who wouldn't mind the loss of their heads. :)

The innovation will be promulgated on the basis of safety, convenience (No need to carry cash!), 'cool'ness and necessity. No doubt that at first it will be voluntary but quite soon will become mandatory.

Did you know that the Bible speaks of this? I'm going to look it up. Not very often do I find the bible relevant but this time...

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 05 - 09:46 PM

Good grief. There's a lot on it already out there.

Here is the biblical line I remembered from my childhood:

"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark..." Revelations 13

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 05 - 09:48 PM

Interesting, but who is it asking for the mark in the bible?

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 05 - 10:14 PM

Not sure, Guest- the powers? Satan? I'd have to go read it in context.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 05 - 10:23 PM

Not you. But Ebbie points out something important, regardless of the source. This situation was envisioned thousands of years ago, and it is coming to pass now. It has happened in other times also. The situation merits consideration even if only for the warning it gives.

http://www.asylumsupport.info/publications/preventgenocide/nationalidcards.htm

In another country about seven decades ago, they too thought it couldn't happen to them. Soon, the ID system began to stamp the national ID cards with a J. Show your card or no work. Show your card or no food. Show your card or no medical treatment. Assuming it couldn't happen in the US is, IMO, foolish. Some of those folks in Washington ain't wrapped too tight. If I was an American, I would be very worried.

Subject: RE: BS: Congress Abuses ID, Refugees, US Natives
From: dianavan
Date: 31 May 05 - 11:12 PM

Excellent link, brucie. National I.D. cards make it much easier to identify individuals for ethnic cleansing. As we have witnessed in the past, identification is the first step necessary when attempting genocide.

With so much ethnic profiling occurring, to condone the use of national I.D. cards would be the same as agreeing that all people from the middle east should be sent to Syria for torture in case they might know something about terrorists.