BS: VE DAY (May 8)

Subject: BS: VE DAY
From: Tam the man
Date: 08 May 05 - 06:31 AM

Today is VE day, it's 60 years since the 2nd world war stopped in Europe.

I wonder how many people will be remebering the falling in that war.

And the ones that survived

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: GUEST,Louie Roy
Date: 08 May 05 - 03:47 PM

After 4 years in the south pacific I remeber it very well I have a million memories and many of them with tears in my eyes even today.Louie Roy

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 05 - 04:43 PM

remembering everyone invloved in the war

all the best
andy

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 09 May 05 - 09:13 AM

Actually, the Germans surrendered on May 7, by Eisenhower delayed the announcement for another day so the Russins could get in on the act.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 May 05 - 10:36 AM

Kendall -

We got the local slant again on May 8. It seems that the local newspaper, on May 6, ran the story "Germans to Surrender Tomorrow" before all the reporters who witnessed the May 7 surrender signing were "sworn to secrecy" and "asked" not to release the news. The Germans signed their "surrender to US/Allied forces" on May 7, but Eisenhower agreed to withhold the announcement until they could repeat a "surrender to Russian forces" on May 8.

It may be difficult for some to understand that at the time the local paper considered their "premature" announcement sort of an "oops," and printed a later explanation amounting to an apology. It seems like a fairy tale now, that there was a time when governments and news media trusted each other enough to cooperate - usually.

Most of my personal memories are not of VE day itself, but of many older men and women with memories - who deserve to be remembered.

John

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: kendall
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:02 PM

We used to celebrate V J day back home. Among other activities we had a soap box derby. I won it one year. The prize was $10.00, a small fortune to a poor boy in 1950.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: gnu
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:14 PM

Been on the TV and in the papers here since last week. It's a big thing in The Netherlands. Parades and ceremonies in Belgium and Holland were telecast on the CBC for over eight hours yesterday. Lots more today.

Lest we forget.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 May 05 - 01:11 PM

Any input on the current controversy in Russia, regarding the Soviet Union's role in the Great Patriotic War and its aftermath?

The end of WWII meant the beginning of the division of Europe into opposing "Cold War" camps, as per the agreement made at Yalta, and fingers of blame are still being pointed back and forth between East and West. The timing of GW Bush's visit to Moscow has probably served to emphasize this angle.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: saulgoldie
Date: 09 May 05 - 03:03 PM

It was reported that Russia lost 27 million people. That concept is mind-boggling. And not to minimize the other losses, including 6 million Jews in the camps, and the Gypsies and gays and disabled.

I keep hoping that humanity will discover that war and killing is not the answer. Yes, the fascists had to be stopped. But they should have been stopped within their own countries before they even got any power beyond one lonely soapbox. That is the way to stop the madness. Idealistic? Of course. But ultimately, war makes more problems than it solves.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: kendall
Date: 09 May 05 - 04:28 PM

Does that 27 million include those whom Stalin purged?

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 05 - 06:32 PM

Don't think so, kendall.
The purges came later

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 05 - 06:33 PM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 May 05 - 06:34 PM

Probably not, kendall.

For once, with anything involving WWII in the UK, the anti-German bias of some sections of society, such as the tabliod press, didn't show up. What a welcome change.

Bunnhabhain

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 05 - 06:36 PM

Fatalities: WWII

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:00 AM

Sixty years is a very long time, A lot has changed.
I remember twenty years ago, at the celebrations of VE-day, the opinion (of the ruling elite, not nec3essarily of the population)) in Germany was there's nothing to celebrate about having lost a war. Ten years ago, the idea was to keep a low profile and not to hurt the feelings of the remaining German soldiers.

This year, all people of the now ruling elite are born after the war or have been very little kids at the end of the war. So we hear both from our president and our chancellor the word 'liberation' for the first time I can remember. They would have been stoned for using such a word in 1955 or 1965.

'Liberation' sums up the feelings of nearly all Germans below 70. I consider that a good sign.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: mg
Date: 11 May 05 - 12:19 AM

how were the soldiers treated after the war? mg

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY
From: DougR
Date: 11 May 05 - 01:00 AM

Mary: I assume you are posing that question to Wolfgang. I'd be interested in knowing that too.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: GUEST,John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 May 05 - 09:01 AM

For the most part, GIs were treated like the heroes they were. There were huge parades in NYC and other cities, large and small. You may know of the GI Bill of Rights which subsidized schooling and home ownership, preference (through bonus points) in Civil Service jobs, medical care and the like.

Nobody spat on them and called them baby killers. Nobody condemned them for the job that hey did and endured. And nobody wished that the other side would win. Of course, when I say 'nobody', I do not literally mean every single person, but you get the idea.

Suggest you read the Brokaw books about "The Greatest Generation".

John Hindsill

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 May 05 - 09:28 AM

Mary,

I'll give you a much too long response for your question but I think the general German reaction to the Nazi crimes is a good theme. You'll find the response to your specific question buried in my post.

I'm too young to tell from own experience (born in '48) but I've read several personal accounts recently and earlier (from different sides).

The reaction to the end of war was mostly relief and then -- silence. All of a sudden there were no Nazis in 1945 and those who were known to have been all turned out to actually have been forced to join the party or have been silently opposing the regime. Just two days ago I read how the 'German salute' stopped immediately on May 8th and the people restarted saying 'Good morning' again without any formal decision about that as if they all had agreed about going back to the old days at exactly the same time.

Those twelve years seemd to have been scratched from German history entirely. People went back to business as usual and - don't mention the war. The returning soldiers were needed and the relations were all too happy if they came back at all (the last big bunch of soldiers came back from Siberia in 1955 and some as late as 1959 and mostly the family hadn't know during more than a decade whether the son, father, brother was alive at all; they just came to the trains hoping to see a familiar face).

Beside the private joy there was no public reaction either of praise or of contempt towards the soldiers. You may compare it with someone coming back from a medical treatment for a condition no one dares to mention in public (veneral disease, abortion). A detail from those times: Casablanca, the movie, was dubbed as a smuggler story with all the Nazis left out. No one wanted to hurt the feelings of the German soldiers.

The allies during those years (late forties) held court about war (and other) criminals. There was no German court action at all for Nazi crimes during all those years. At first, it was a case for the Allies alone and German courts were no allowed to act and later, when German courts would have been allowed to act they didn't.

In the 50s and early sixties there was a strong movement against remilitarisation of Germany and, on the other side, the feeling (of former soldiers) 'we have done nothing wrong, and if so, no more than the enemy has'. When Willy Brandt in the sixties was running for chancellor, one argument against him publicly heard was still that he had fled Germany in the 30s. Can a deserter be our chancellor?

In the middle of the 60s a lot changed. There was the first big German court action dealing out sentences for multiple murder against Nazi criminals (Auschwitz), and several more processes later. A new generation too young for any personal guilt started asking the generation of the fathers (in a general, and often, in a very individual sense) where have you been and what have you done as a soldier.

The student revolution of 68 also did help to break through the wall of silence. 'Casablanca' was redubbed with the Nazis included. In 69, Willy Brandt became chancellor, and in his own person, an illegitimated child, a deserter and active fighter against Nazi Germany, the first contours of a new, and better Germany could be seen. He was a person a young German could be proud of (I have cried when he died, and never before or after I have ever cried about the death of a politician and I shall never again).

The war years fade into history now. The soldiers, if they still live, belong to the generation of greatgrandfathers or at least grandfathers. They do no longer dominate the politics and if the 'youngsters' like I look back to 45 we consider May 8th as the day of liberation and not of defeat. Both the left (social democrat) chancellor and the right (Christian democrat) president have used that word and they speak what most Germans feel (not always, but here).

There are still unsolved problems (e.g., a street near my street named after a Nazi hero), there are still hurt feelings of soldiers supported by young right radicals (violent demonstrations against an exposition about war crimes of the Wehrmacht), but altogether most Germans are neither overly proud of nor overly excusing for being Germans.

Let me close with two verses of the alternative anthem from Brecht which never had a chance to become our national anthem though it would have made a good one (you can sing it to the tune of the official anthem):

Und nicht �ber und nicht unter       (neither above nor under
Andern V�lkern wolln wir sein       other people/countries we wish to be
Von der See bis zu den Alpen         from the sea to the Alps
Von der Oder bis zum Rhein          from the Oder to the Rhine

Und weil wir dies Land verbessern    Aiming to make this land a better one
Lieben und beschirmen wir's            we love it and protect it
Und das liebste mag's uns scheinen   and the dearest of all countries it may seem to us
So wie andern V�lkern ihrs.            like to other people theirs)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 11 May 05 - 03:47 PM

Thank you Wolfgang. Posts like that, thoughtful and insightful, are too rare.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 05 - 04:22 PM

And nobody wished that the other side would win. Well, the crucial factor would have been that in World War II "the other side" were the aggressors.

......................

I can remember my mother picking me up from school, and telling me the war was ending, and I was running up and down the street cheering. I didn't understand too much abouit it, but the big thing was that it was all right for me to go running up and down the street cheering, without anyone telling me off, and that was pretty good fun.

I seem to remmeber I was a bit confused between Germs and Germans. They were both liable to kill you if you weren't careful.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Blowzabella
Date: 11 May 05 - 06:33 PM

Maev Kennedy of the Guardian has written two (in my opinion) excellent pieces about the way VE Day was commemorated in the UK - links below

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1479430,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1479484,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: mg
Date: 11 May 05 - 07:09 PM

My little nephew was four and here on a visit from Germany, where his father was in the military..he said germs are from Germany and also people. I said..Germans are people you know..and he said..well I must be a German then.. mg

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 May 05 - 10:40 PM

Wolfgang--

It's such a joy to read your postings--especially on a topic like this, but in general you provide such an evenhanded approach to so many issues.

I remember from my 3 years in Germany--- (I was fascinated by the German perspective on historical issues, particularly their own history)---that 1945 was indeed called das Jahr Null (Year Zero)--implying that history was to start in 1945. In this they were mightily encouraged by the Western Allies, who were looking for help against the Soviet bloc. As I recall, even industrialists with hands that definitely weren't clean (e.g. the Krupps) were quickly enlisted by the West in the Cold War.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 May 05 - 10:52 PM

Of course I'm talking about West Germany---when I was there, Wiedervereinigung was considered a pipe dream--there were all sorts of theories, including a pretty strong conviction by quite a few that neither the Soviet bloc nor the viWest did not want to see a reunified Germany

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 May 05 - 10:53 PM

Don't know how that happened--should have read "neither the Soviet bloc nor the West wanted to see a reunified Germany".

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 05 - 07:39 AM

Thanks, Don and Bunnahabhain (a malt I like a lot, BTW), for the kind words.

I was telling it from a West German perspective, the East German might be quite different.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 May 20 - 10:09 AM

75 years now. We have learned nothing.

For young Willie McBride, it all happened again
And again and again and again and again.

Yeah, I know, wrong war, but that sentiment is perfectly phrased, for me.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 May 20 - 11:51 AM

They were very fortunate in England in 1945 not to have to endure steel drums. Our neighbour plays ad nauseam and this afternoon in their front garden.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 May 20 - 01:01 PM

With the state of the world, and the significance of the date being undermined by popularists wouldn't it be much better and more significant to commorated the 76th anniversary, once the turnip is off the scene.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 20 - 02:05 PM

I've never heard an ad nauseum being played. Is it anything like a cor anglais?

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 May 20 - 02:17 AM

Lest We Forget

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 May 20 - 03:24 AM

Yesterday we had a street party - weird one, but very rewarding.

Ours is a cul-de-sac, and front gardens are parking/driveways. So we all sat 12 metres apart. One household had a barbecue and bluetooth boombox.

I suggested Vera Lynn so we had There'll Blue Birds Over, the White Cliffs of Dover, & We'll Meet Again** (again and again) and another I suggested I'm Gonna Get Lit, when the Lights Go On In London which couldn't have been more "in context".

Two houses are empty, my immediate neighbour has COPD so couldn't participate. One misery-guts (we have form) next door to Dan the organiser never showed a mangy tail. His other neighbour is old and virtually house-bound and he braved the chill of evening longer than I did, his wife made up with cheery abandon. Sarah opposite is another cheer leader and she was getting louder as the afternoon alcohol wore on. Dan organised a bingo session which, considering the alcohol he was downing, was a successfully completed, if hilariously slowly. His little kid helping very diligently, and more soberly.

One neighbour had to go off to a care home to work, and her mom-in-law has home carers so we all clapped them up & down the road to & from their cars.

All-in-all a bizarre and very silly event. But strangely so enjoyable.

**Youtubes all, one an interview with Vera Lynn

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 May 20 - 04:21 AM

We had a similar 'celebration' Mr Red. All out in our front gardens (well-apart) and flags on all the house fronts. I had to tease one neighbour because his flag was upside-down, and I pointed out it was a distress signal.
Vera Lynn CD (another neighbour's) played, and barbecues going.
But then a very large drone buzzed overhead! I'd never seen one before. People started messaging on their Village Facebook thingy, and the drone owner reassured us that he was merely filming the celebrations. He put the video on Facebook later.
It was as nice as it could be under the circumstances, but I felt a bit sad inside somehow. Will our country ever be the same again after this terrible pandemic?
However, let's all be very thankful to Trump - his keepers foolishly let him out to do an announcement and he has reassured us all that the virus will go away of its own accord without any vaccine! Tee hee, he really ought to be certified, put into a straight-jacket and wheeled away.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 20 - 05:14 AM

My 91-year-old mum boos loudly whenever we drive past a Lidl. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Charmion
Date: 09 May 20 - 12:19 PM

In Canada, anniversary memorials begin on 5 May when General Charles Foulkes of I Canadian Corps accepted the capitulation of General Johannes Blaskovitz and all German forces in the Netherlands. So we get up to a week of television newscasters saying silly things in front of black-and-white film of pretty girls waving tulips and wine bottles at guys in battledress. This year, the RCAF aerobatics team buzzed Ottawa.

Not much Vera Lynn. No street parties; it's snowing.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: JHW
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:13 AM

9 families out of twice that houses in view came to our street party. Sat and drank or whatever on garden tables dotted about in shouting distance but keeping safe. Many agreed that without the virus there'd have been no 'party' at all.
Thanks to those in the War we could do it.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Donuel
Date: 12 May 20 - 07:35 AM

We had military jet fly overs but they were said to honor health care workers probably as a Trump after thought.
Perhaps there were wakes by neo nazis but there were no celebrations for VE day.

Subject: RE: BS: VE DAY (May 8)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 May 20 - 07:43 AM

Yeah, not a big US holiday. Too much about the end of war and not enough glorifying of it, I guess...