BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 06:21 PM

Here's some background on the development and production of the "mini-nukes"...

http://www.brook.edu/FP/PROJECTS/NUCWCOST/lasg.htm

http://www.nukestrat.com/us/afn/B61-11.htm

And various members of the Bush administration have been very vocal about advocating for the use of these weapons in a first strike pre-emptive capacity.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 May 05 - 05:46 PM

its no secret the US is working on mini-nukes, to be used as bunker busters etc, if thats what GUEST is trying to deny..

but to all those that claim the war will bring democracy to the Iraqi people, how do you feel about the latest news from Uzbekistan.
5000 people demonstrate, 500 die at protest after Uzbekistans military opens fire at a demonstration last week.
Remember that Islam Karimov (president for life) is buddies with George W. Bush, because Uzbekistan is one of the allies in the war on terror
since providing an airbase in 2001. Karimov also received 500$million US in aid (10 times the amount he received in 1998)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 05:31 PM

Which points, specifically are you disagreeing with, GUEST, 16 May 05 - 05:06 PM?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 05 - 05:06 PM

That's not true Carol, but I'm not going to go 'nuclear' in this thread. You should do some research before you write up your assumptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 02:59 PM

Oops... forgot this bit: I don't know the answer to your question, brucie, but the people in charge here are creating a new class of nuclear weapon that they intend to use in conventional war situations as "bunker busters", etc. So I would say that our nuclear arsenal is getting bigger rather than smaller.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 02:55 PM

I don't blame Bush at all. He's just a puppet.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:53 PM

I think that the west has always played off different leaders of these countries for years. The very borders of these countries were set up by the western powers and they made bad choices.
We cannot blame Bush et al for all this trouble, much of it was inherited. Now we are reaping the whirlwind so to speak. My only concern is that the battle being joined, we have to win it. Restoring decent living standards in Iraq will stabilize some of the situation I just don't see it happening soon. Bush has become a legend in his own mind, and that is unfortunate fact. Lets hope sober minds and decent people of the world gain more control of international politics in the near future. I won't be holding my breath while waiting thought ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:39 PM

dave.. you actually believe in the wmds? and that bush was fed bad intelligence?..
I would have thought that Wolfowitz's Vanity Fair interview would have made that clear..
wolfowitz ... 'for bureaucratic and other reasons we finally settled on the threat of wmds as a justification for invading Iraq..'

Paul O'Neill secretary of the treasury, said Bush wanted to go after Iraq as soon as he came into office.

Richard Clarke, the day after 9/11, Bush said '9/11 - Saddam Hussein find me a link'

I dont believe that Bush is just a useful idiot for the neocons, he isnt intellectually engaging, however he is politically astute, and along with the evil genius Rove (who has a record of winning elections in any way possible) they all make a team.
..
for a good long term analysis, I would recommend Gwynne Dyers FUTURE TENSE, he correctly predicted that it would turn into a quagmire for the US.. (You may not be aware of it, but Rove had planned for George BUsh to start his re-election campaign with an appearance in Baghdad.
in the spring of 04, boy was that ever optimistic).

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:27 PM

Oops. Correction... *Kuwait*.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:24 PM

Sorry, folks. I don't mean to be a bigger pain in the arse than I usually am, but does anyone know about how many nuclear weapons remain in the US arsenal?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 12:55 PM

And the point I'm making, Dave, is that the US didn't regard Saddam as a "bad guy" as long as he was killing the people we told him to. And even when he invaded Quwait, he thought he was doing it with our blessing. We set him up as a straw man so we could use him to do our dirty work and then knock him down when we had enough dirt on him to "justify" invading his country, appropriating its natural resources, and using it as our strategic military base in the Middle East.

One of the members of the Bush administration was quoted as saying "we are an empire... we make reality... people will be studying us and our methods".

We don't need to study their methods in retrospect. We can observe them right now, as they are happening. The patterns are more than obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: mg
Date: 16 May 05 - 12:38 PM

They don't need the weapons per se. All they need is the money to buy them with or fanatics who will somehow concoct them, steal them, liberate them etc. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 16 May 05 - 08:49 AM

Ebbie, Look at the IRA, in 500 years the British could not disarm them, why? (a much smaller population and landmass than Iraq) You could also look into US history, something tells me it was almost similar in 1776. :) The British had the same trouble in Afghanistan

The Italian example I used was from personal knowledge, related to the experiences of some of the officers involved in the collection of these weapons during WW2. You might find some documented evidence of what I say, but I do not have any source to direct you too.

CarolC, I am not arguing with you, what you are saying is not the issue. The fact remains Saddams supply was not limited to those chemicals. Let me give you a reference to a modern day arms smuggling problem to illustrate how easy it is to obtain weapons.
http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsJuly2001/newsbeat1.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 May 05 - 03:09 AM

"while many thousands of sleek, modern semi automatics and machine guns were greased up and hidden away. They were never found." Dave AM

But you know they were there, right? How?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 12:48 AM

Maybe, Dave. But the US sold them to him so he could use them (as our proxy) to kill people the US wanted killed, on behalf of the US. And therein lies the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:59 PM

It scares me too--but then so does the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:33 PM

CarolC, My point was that sometimes Experts find what they are supposed to find, and make their assesments from flawed information. As for purchasing chemicals, it would be too simplistict to say that the USA is/was the only source of chemicals. Far more dangerous substances can be purchased from mercenary suppliers worldwide, and we know Iraqs former leader had no scruples in using illegal weapons. Quite frankly the military surplus store formerly known as the Soviet Union scares the hell out of me even today.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:10 PM

Plus, we know where he got the chemicals. He bought them from us.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:08 PM

Except that in this case, Dave, the aggressor nation is the United States of America.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 05 - 10:43 PM

CarolC let me tell you an old story about experts who had to take war seriously. Italians decided to surrender peacefully and not support the Nazis after the allies invaded. There were thousands of Italians who owned military firearms that never surrendered them. The USA and Britain held an amnesty to recover privately held military firearms. Thousands of old shotguns,bolt action rifles and revolvers were handed in to the "Expert weapons collectors"   while many thousands of sleek, modern semi automatics and machine guns were greased up and hidden away. They were never found.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 05 - 10:11 PM

I tend to trust the people who were assigned to make those assesments, and who have established that there were no usable WMD. Like I said before... those chemicals were too old to be of much danger to anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 05 - 08:27 PM

If the someone who knocks on my door has the superior firepower of the USA or UN then I would hand over the three legged giraffe in the basement; or make bloody sure they got access to every room in my house.

On a personal note Guest, very few people who knock on my door have superior firepower; and very few who would be inclined to get beligerant with me when I opened the door. *BFG* ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 05 - 08:20 PM

Someone knocks on your door and says " We are going to search your house for a three legged giraffe, then blow the s**t out of the neighbourhood." Wouldn't you be beligerent?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 05 - 08:15 PM

Very true CarolC, but coupled with the fact that at the same time this was being released by the Dutch, Israeli media were also stating the same thing by other sources. I think it is difficult to believe anything put out in the media, but one has to remain objective and view the possibility of this being true. If Saddam had nothing to hide, why was he so elusive and belligerant with the UN inspectors?

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 05 - 08:07 PM

Dave, that's exactly the same kind of "intelligence" (from expatriates with an axe to grind) that got the US and Britain on that wild goose chase for WMD in Iraq. Many members of the real intelligence community (not the "Office of Special Plans" from which the Bush administration got their "intelligence") know that you need to take what the ex-pats have to say with quite a large grain of salt.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 05 - 07:53 PM

Dear Guest Al, Google it and you will find many sources of information on the subject. Here is one to save you the trouble of looking. http://www.2la.org/syria/iraq-wmd.php

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 05 - 02:53 PM

The poison gas had passed its "use by" date. All of Saddam's chemical weapons were too old to do much damage to anyone, and they had been accounted for and put under seal by the UN inspections teams.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 02:05 PM

Oh, yeah. I have been meaning to ask: Does anyone know about how many nuclear weapons the US still has in its arsenal? To the nearest hundred would be OK. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 02:01 PM

"and had in his possesion reserves of poison gas;"

The above is a pretty good bet, you can call me al> (You can call me Bruce.) Hussein had used the stuff on the Kurdish population. That we know for fact. So, indeed he had WMDs. He was also working pon nuclear capability. That too is fact. He had a cyclotron way the hell out in the desert, and unless he was doing blood separation, the likelyhood is he was using it to do isotope separation. However, Hussein is gone now as are whatever WMDs might have been there. So the question remains: When will the US leave?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,you can call me al
Date: 15 May 05 - 01:31 PM

"There is no doubt in my mind that Saddam held, and had in his possesion reserves of poison gas; with the ability to construct and deliver biologcal and chemical weapons."

dave, you can call me al. According to all the evidence presented to us in the media (the David Kay report and the recently closed CIA report) not only were there no WMDs, there is no evidence of anything being moved to syria or anyplace else. but you have no doubt. do you have info that we average americans can't get or are you just imagining things?

"in fact there is some evidence (Israeli Intel) that stuff was..."

where do you get your info on israli intelligence?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 01:14 PM

Art, instead of 600, I'm willing to say that 200 are real military bases, renovations because they need to be renovated, etc. So then there are only 400. The point wasn't the number; rather, the point was the purpose.

BTW, I have no intent to get into arguments with anyone over my views. Most folks will think I'm crazy or paranoid or stupid or whatever. In this instance, I hope they're right. Nothing would please me more.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 01:10 PM

OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 May 05 - 01:09 PM

Brucie, you may want to go back and revisit the "camps" thread. Several people, myself among them, disputed the existance of individual camps, based upon our own personal knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 12:58 PM

Not having had weapons of mass destruction and not having found weapons of mass destruction are two different things. However, go with this scenario: it is a good reason to tuck away for the future to invade yet another country. Follow the bouncing ball, if you will.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: dianavan
Date: 15 May 05 - 12:54 PM

Dave -

We can think anything that we want to think. Without proof or evidence its only imagination.

I think the U.S. administration continues to develop WMD's. Does that give Canada and its allies, the right to invade? I also think that the U.S. imprisons too many non-white people. Does that justify invasion? I also think the U.S. continues to manipulate freedom of speech. Should we invade?

Going to war without proof, evidence or support; is foolish in the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 05 - 12:35 PM

Boab, I am not alone in my thoughts on the WMD issue. There is no doubt in my mind that Saddam held, and had in his possesion reserves of poison gas; with the ability to construct and deliver biologcal and chemical weapons. The UN gave him adequate time to dispose of them; in fact there is some evidence (Israeli Intel) that stuff was transfered to Syria and buried. Complicity is something that you have ruled out completely in your arguments, there are many countries (bordering on Iraq) that support anti USA groups. Such activity is not only likely, it would be in Saddams best interests to support such groups; and therefore very likely he had willing contact with them.

yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 12:28 PM

Amos, he is all of that. However, the only part on which we differ substantially is this: he is not the leader, he is just the figurehead. He's too stupid to be a leader in anything but name. He's been easier to lead than a calf with a ring in its nose, and there is no doubt in my mind that he IS being led. When he will best serve the Neocon purpose by being out of the picture, that's what will happen.

The US has little choice but to impose martial law on its citizenry before the next election. The next election can not be allowed to happen in the US, and I think it won't. Look at recent times and connect the dots: the US is in massive debt (six TRILLION for a figure--about $17,000 for every man, woman and child in the country) and it's currently spending about a billion a day on a war where its stated purpose is to bring democracy/stability to Iraq. True, much of that money is being kept in the American economy by soldiers and companies paid with American tax dollars, but the war allows for troops to be available 24/7 in both Iraq AND the US.

Oil is getting scarce. Call that one the way you want--and yes I have read the various studies that show it will become scarcer and scarcer until in 2050 (the most optimistic estimate) when it just isn't available to the average guy anymore.

The world itself is on the brink of a totally new economic 'system', and that has been coming for at least 200 years now. The gold-based and silver-based dollar is a myth. The US doesn't have enough of either metal to back its currency. Enter a new leader of the World Bank who also helped write the US blueprint for the 21st century. Indeed, the times they are a-changin'.

I think that 9/11 was engineered. However, whether or not it was an intentional or simply convenient event, it did allow the passage of bills (laws) that have fundamentally changed America. I have wondered since 9/11 why the Twin Towers and the Pentagon were targeted. (I don't know what the fourth target was supposed to be.) A larger loss of life could have been accomplished by hitting a nuclear reactor; larger economic loss could have been achieved by hitting oil refinery complexes in New Jersey (just a few minutes away). So I'm left with the conclusion that the attacks were meant to stun, shock and awe the American people. Whether or not that was the purpose, the events DID stun, shock and awe the American people, enough so that the people have allowed the passage of bills that trade their freedom for a perceived security--and on paper it looks good. But the question that remains is this: Why were the attacks 'symbolic'?

Some questions that have plagued me since 9/11: Where did the debris of the Twin Towers end up? Why were there no independent chemicla tests done on the debris to determine precisely why the buildings collapsed as neatly as they did? Why do we hear nothing about building 7? It too came down perfectly, and on purpose. However, the decision to take it down was made one minute and the next, boom, and down it came. I do NOT believe that the charges to drop that building were installed in six or seven hours.

Scenario as I see it: About two years from now there will have to be another 'major event' in the US. I think two factions are fighting in Washington to control the future of the country and indeed the world. One is the Neocon faction, and the other is deeper, darker and more entrenched than that. I do think that Bush is part of the Neocon group. They are simply immoral money people. It's the other group that is scary. Mostly because they are so elusive.

Some of this stuff plays out like a Tom Clancy novel. That is interesting. A scenario that Clancy portrayed in one of his books has a nuclear weapon misfire in Colorado. Another scenario has the Congressional buildings hit by a plane heavily loaded with fuel. OK, so that's fiction, as was the release of an aerosol Ebola strain. But what isn't fiction are the repercussions. The Ebola scenario allowed the shutdown of interstate travel and the imposition of martial law. The people accepted it willingly for the most part because it was for their protection. In two years, what will the US people be willing to accept?

Wheteher the camps that were discussed on another thread are for the internment of Americans or not, what fascinated me was this: NO ONE disputed that the camps are there. People only disputed the end-purpose of the camps. Interesting.

In the words of some guy in a movie, "Add it all up and I don't know what the hell ya got." However, no matter how ya add it up, the US government is going to TELL you what the bottom line is.

I think your country is facing a 'coup d'etat'. And I think the American people are going to allow it to happen.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:24 AM

I recall saying to my wife early on, "ya know, if they never find any WMD, I expect that he will be impeached." Alas for my misplaced faith in our elected representatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:16 AM

Let me point out that Captain Queeg was starkers and psycho. I think the analogy is apt. It my be Bush himself, and it may be the trolls and warts he takes on for an entourage, but it is still his responsibility; he has unleashed murder and chaos on the strength of an empire-mad whim. The counter-forces being marshaled against him are no better, but both sides have left body parts and dead parents and wounded orphans all across the Mesopotamian sands, and it is a disgusting demonstration of human failure, greed, and destructiveness at its very worst. The fact that he can parade around posing as a political leader with this chaos on his hands, lying and butchering the English language as badly as his war-dogs have butchered the lives of so many people across the sea just redoubles his despicability rating. And his disrespect for the REAL construction of the American experiment, including his frivolous attitude and manipulative undermining of the constitution, simply demonstrates he is just as psychotic domestically as he has been internationally.

What he does do well is ruthless power games. But so does any two-bit dictator.
Don't tell me he isn't stupid. His solutions have lead to a morass of death and struggle. How smart is that? He has the brains of an iguana, and the personality of a horned toad. If you are fooled by his artificial twang and his posturing, shame on you. He's a lousy snake, and a lousy leader, and an incompetent President.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: robomatic
Date: 15 May 05 - 09:37 AM

I can't improve on the posts of Dave (TAM). Especially the quote from President Theodore Roosevelt, which puts in a nutshell the perceived weakness of the Democrats in the US, and the reason I think they lost the election.

I think we (the US and GB and 'coalition') are 'trying' to do the right thing against some very nasty bastards. I think we are in an era where we need a very with-it and savvy President, an above average President. President Bush is NOT stupid, but he is, unfortunately, too close to average. I think he may be doing the best he can.

The only other major thing (besides a more connected Administration) that would improve things is getting the world to assist. I think NATO or UN peacekeepers would have a more 'world-bearing-down' influence on the insurgents, but how much is anyone's guess, given their propensity for blowing up their own people in large numbers.

I here re-iterate a comment that I've made several times in various forum venues: that France, Germany, and Russia did themselves no favor and Europe no ultimate good by countering American involvement in Iraq. I think they left 'W' feeling lilke Gary Cooper in "High Noon" (whereas he is really Captain Queeg in "The Caine Mutiny").

I am continually impressed by Tony Blair's eloquence and political dexterity. I'm wondering if we'd fare better if he was boss of the show.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 May 05 - 09:16 AM

Also (joining the discussion late) re: criticism of the UN's role:


As I've said several times on other threads (starting in spring 2004), the UN pulled Bush's chestnuts out of the fire in Iraq, by acting as honest broker between the various factions, thus making possible an Iraqi face on the opposition to the insurgents.

Without the UN, there's a good chance the many predictions, by Mudcatters, of Vietnam Part Two, would have come true.

As many other posters have already noted, Bush and the more fervent Bushites on this forum have wonderful chutzpah in claiming the violation of UN resolutions as justification for invading Iraq.

As has been pointed out ad nauseam by many others, the UN never authorized the invasion.

Re:   oil for food----under Cheney, Halliburton had absolutely no moral or ethical problem with evading sanctions.

For Bushites to try to claim the moral high ground now smacks of more than a little hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Boab
Date: 15 May 05 - 04:06 AM

Dave, it seems from the reading of your views on Iraq that you are all alone in the [sane] world in your continuing belief in the originally-stated reason for attacking that country---the existence of weapons of mass destruction. When do you reckon they'll be discovered?
   And a long-term stay is already planned, no matter what government is elected, freely or otherwise, in Iraq. I see two scenarios which can achieve a decisive end to the cruel chaos in the Mid-East; 1) the rejection by the American people of the unholy gang which is now trying --and unfortunately succeeding---to spread its acquisitive tentacles across Asia, and 2) a realisation that the cost in U.S. lives and wellbeing will be ever-present and possibly increasing if the present course is maintained. It will be a blessing if the former scenario prevails. I think [and I hope] that the glory-seeking lapdog who is Premier in the UK will be among the first to notice his clay feet crumbling. Mr Bush should surely follow---for if the incumbents in the White House keep on keeping on, there could well be some very serious rumblings among the very high [and getting higher] proportion of Americans who abhor the lies and warmongering which have been the hallmark of this administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 05 - 02:44 AM

Sorry, I forgot to mention. The US forces have done, and continue to do an outstanding job in an impossible situation. Even if they had put 500,000 troops into Iraq they would still be hard pressed to try and control the country. There are a lot of foreign mercenary interests who are determined to see the USA fail in Iraq; that is one major factor that makes it a no win situation. I reiterate that it should have been accomplished the first time, when Iraq invaded Kuwait. The only way the US army will be able to establish control is if Iraq can establish reasonable government, and reform its military and police. Since this is unlikely to happen quickly, they must plan for a long term stay.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 05 - 02:24 AM

I agree with Amos, the whole thing was very poorly planned and executed from the begining. When you analyse the UN inspectors track record you will find that they were:-

1: Restricted from visiting any sites that might have housed military hardware on a random basis.
2: Allowed controlled access to certain sites, but on a time table dictated by Saddam.
3: Prevented from interviewing alone anyone connected with military programs who might have had information on WMD's.
4: Sent out of the country and refused access until threats of direct action were made.
5: Allowed to return only when it suited Saddam to prevent any direct action being instigated.
6: Were not allowed transport without certain restrictions on movements within Iraq.

All in all a very unsatisfactory program that did not delay the removal and disposal of evidence. My comments on the inability of the US army to control Iraq and its military after the initial invasion stand. If the Guest who contends that what I have said is rubbish is here. I suggest you take some lessons on military history and tactics. Then come back with a name and debate with me in person; otherwise your comments are just cheap sniping remarks with no substance to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 05 - 04:45 PM

"Bush is a stupid sonofabitch"

I agree. However, it also doesn't matter since he does what he's told to do by Neocons.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 May 05 - 03:02 PM

Just found this:

QUOTATION OF THE DAY

"We wanted to reflect the real atmosphere of life in Iraq. You could get kidnapped here any time. Or a bomb could kill you. This is our life."
JAMAL ABED JASSIM, director and chief writer of "Love and War," a black comedy filmed in Iraq.


clint

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 14 May 05 - 12:51 PM

Carol:

You may be giving them too much credit. Bush is a stupid sonofabitch, even though he tries hard to be clever. Very stupid people can be crafty and artful in their colossal stupidity, just as some very intelligent people can be inept at social manipulation, because their deceit index is too low. Bush's index of deceit -- the amount he can tolerate generating without suffering qualms or psychosomatic illness -- is very high; he is not only stupid, he is a hidebound stupid sonofa bitch, a snake in the grass with body armor.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 14 May 05 - 12:32 PM

This part right here is the part to notice, Dave:

There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

To not discuss, thoroughly and in great detail, the aftermath of the invasion, and to neglect to plan for it, you would have to be either very, very stupid and incompetent, or it would have to be your intention to not win the peace. One or the other.

Everything is going exactly according to plan. The oil is secure, US military bases are being constructed, and everything else is in chaos. That's exactly the way the US government wants it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 14 May 05 - 10:16 AM

The Downing Street memo can be found here.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 05 - 02:34 AM

"Trying to control a country and a military that fell appart so quickly would be beyond any capability of the US Army."

more rubbish from dave. do you recall that gen. shinseki (head of the army at the time) testified before congress and said that we would need at least 300,000 troops on the ground to handle the postwar responsibilities (this before the war began). he was marched off to a quick retirement with a push from rumsfeld who is responsible for the undermanning and wretched performance of our forces.

"As for treating the Iraqis better, lets just say the military are not social workers and policemen. It is very difficult to weed out the decent from the bad when everyone is yelling in a language you dont understand,and waving and shooting guns."

when you invade someone's country there will be waving and shooting of guns. if we had planned properly to secure the country the UN would be operating the peacekeeping forces a job they are designed for. we, unfortunately, abused the UN and the WMD inspectors to promote the bush admin. agenda and have failed to provide enough security to allow them to operate.

"I still think Bush was fed a diet of bad information; and I have to say I saw nothing in his planning that wasnt born of genuine shock and revulsion to 911."

absolute rubbish here. have you read the downing street memo? google it up. it is the official minutes of a meeting in britain several months before the war outlining to blair and his people how the US was fixing the intelligence to fit the scenario they wanted. an attitude of pure cynicism and evil carried out in our names. bush is a war criminal.