Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again'

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 05 - 11:36 PM

Come to the Getaway, Mary--you'll find none of that nonsense.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 May 05 - 11:51 AM

The warm emotional experioence of everyone singing together--no matter what they sing or how well they sing is--is one thing. Music is another. I sort of wish singing groups/circles/singarounds/hoots would adopt a labeling system (like the movies) to provide some advance warning as to what to expect. It's not that one approach is better than another; it's just that some of us are disappointed when we attend a new group and find that it's rated RUS.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 May 05 - 12:26 PM

I will generally just stay away from these circles. I don't begrudge folks the ability to sing, I just don't belong in a circle that requires one to use a particular version or lyric. As those that know me can tell you, I have my own way of singing based on what I hear in the song, or the message I want expressed. Usually that means that folks that are locked in to a particular version have a hard time.

Let me tell you about group singing from another perspective, though. I was the subject of an interview, and one of the questions had to do with my favorite moments. I told them what it was like to sit in front of a very savvy and talented bunch of folkies, doing my version of a song. I described how they listened carefully, figured out what I was doing (which was off the "beaten path" a bit), came up with a perfect harmony for the chorus, and chimed in at exactly right time. I will never forget the feeling while those wonderful voices came back at me, interpreting the song with me just as I intended. This occurred at the FSGW Getaway, and has happened several times. I can hear the wonderful voices as I type this. I will go to my grave remembering this very powerful moment.

I think my friend Dick Greenhaus has the right of it. RUS is fine as long recognizes it for what it is. I have never felt the need to buy it, as I have better sources.

BTW, if I were going to recommend a couple of song compilations to someone, it would probably be the collected reprints of Sing Out. I have both copies, and use them as a starting point for many songs.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Stewart
Date: 29 May 05 - 11:11 PM

I used to be a regular member of the Seattle Song Circle (hardly missed a session), but now have more-or-less given up on it. I have my own thing about using RUS - a fine collection of songs to sing in groups, but not to be used in group singing. You can see my thoughts about that HERE. People would come to Song Circle without the faintest idea of what they wanted to sing (and certainly not prepared) and open the book to plow through a song they didn't even know. Or they would sing the same song for the umpteenth time always from the book (you would think they might know it after singing it that many times).

Instead I became interested in playing Irish fiddle music and joined a session that meets at roughly the same time. Now there's something about playing in an Irish session that might relate to a song circle. When I first started to play in sessions I didn't know many tunes. I played on the ones I knew and listened on the others. On rare occassion a newcomer would bring a music stand with sheet music, but that was a pain to set up and didn't usually last long (besides it's not a cool thing to do at a session). I slowly learned more tunes at home, but also by just listening during the session. Often I am amazed to all of a sudden be playing a tune that I never really sat down to learn - it just was absorbed unconsciously and then I knew it. And you can't really play Irish music from the notes anyway since it's an oral tradition and the notes are only an approximation of the way it should sound.

There's no disgrace sitting out a tune you don't know - much better than ruining it for the others by trying to play something you don't know - even the best players don't know all the tunes. But if you use that time to listen intently, pretty soon you learn the tune. So I think a lot of what we do at Irish sessions (or any tune sessions) could apply to singing sessions.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 May 05 - 12:40 AM

Well, I guess I have to admit that I've been a bit disappointed at those few workshops at San Francisco's 6-day Camp Harmony when people get too dependent on the "blue book." I usually lead a group singing or camp songs workshop at Harmony, and encourage the use of the "blue book" for that one session. For a community sing with good singers, it can work amazingly well. And usually, a number of people come up and thank me because they've felt lost at other workshops, and haven't had the opportunity to sing.

But in other workshops, it can get to be a drag when too many songs are ones I know already from the "blue book." So, I guess I'd agree that if you're going to use the blue book, it should be used in moderation. I go to workshops to learn new songs, and it can be a drag if all the songs are songs I know, in versions I've heard a thousand times.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: mg
Date: 30 May 05 - 01:24 AM

I think you ahve a good plan...have some sessions where it is welcomed...mg

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: GUEST,David Ingerson
Date: 30 May 05 - 03:46 AM

Someone above suggested that the "better" singers will go off and form their own group. That has already happened here in Portland. The "Pub Singers" have been meeting twice a month and do not allow any books at all. That's a great idea.   The unfortunate thing is that they are exclusive: participation is by invitation only.   (After waiting several years for an invitation, I found they have some exciting, memorable sessions--but I still feel uncomfortable about their exclusivity.)                  
   Of course, they have every right to determine their own membership. In effect, every group determines their own membership--some are more open than others, some are more explicit about their content and "rules" than others.
    At this point, I think that one of the answers to this "problem" is to make the culture of each group explicit and clear to all. For instance, the second Wednesday group is a teaching-learning group: they share songs and sometimes work on songs together. The second Saturday group is open to all, but if you want a song from RUS, then someone has to know it well enough to lead it all the way through.
    Just make the content and format clear. After all, you don't want someone singing Broadway songs at a Sacred harp session. But that wouldn't happen because the name of the group clarifies what happens there.
    People just need to clarify what is acceptable or expected at each session.

David

PS    It just struck me that maybe there is a fundamental difference between people who just like to sing and those who treat singing as an art. I'm not intending to be judgmental here, just trying to draw some distinctions. Does that distinction make sense to any of you?

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 30 May 05 - 09:50 AM

David Ingerson says:

> Just make the content and format clear. After all, you don't want someone singing Broadway songs at a Sacred harp session.

Of course. But it would also be gratifying if there were venues whose purpose was not restricted to singing one or the other or even to singing per se -- where a Broadway song, or a party game, would provide the fastidious with an opportunity to go the kitchen, refresh their drinks, and hobnob about the foolishness of this world.

> It just struck me that maybe there is a fundamental difference between people who just like to sing and those who treat singing as an art. I'm not

intending to be judgmental here, just trying to draw some distinctions. Does that distinction make sense to any of you?

Indeed it does, and I am even willing to be judgmental in moderation. Without wishing to call the police, I judge that there is far too much art in recent popular culture, to the extent that it has become a pest.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: We have struggled to beggar our neighbor in one little lighted corner of a great dark store of wealth and grace. :||

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 05 - 11:51 AM

At music parties I go to or have, we're likely to sing absolutely anything, from sea chanteys or country to doo-wop or a bit of Broadway. The one common factor is that RUS is never seen.

We don't treat it as an art form--we just sing because we like to, because we feel like singing a particular song--sometimes we stumble on a theme and stay with it for a while, just for kicks. We make up harmonies all the time, we welcome (mostly acoustic) instruments. Sometimes the party might be ostensibly country music--but that may include Hawaiian, songs from the 20s and before, country rock, doo-wop etc., or something somebody has written.

And it doesn't bother us in the least if somebody forgets words.

And it's great fun.

But no RUS.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: GUEST,David Ingerson
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:41 PM

Hey Ron,

That's the way our song circles used to be--quite a bit of variety, lots of made-up harmonies, and big enthusiasm. Then they drifted toward more use of the blue book, less variety, less enthusiasm.

How did you folks manage to keep your group from "going blue book?"

I would love to get back what we had. Every once in a while we have a great song circle like we used to, but it happens less and less often.

What's your secret?

David

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: mg
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 12:31 AM

I'd say the only hope is to start a song circle where blue books can only be used by the leader, and then reluctantly and dim the lights. If you have a totally defunct song circle, then maybe resurrect that one. I wouldn't suggest trying to change one that has already gone to the blue books back to bookless...just start fresh...be polite and have the other song circle to direct the book lovers too..oh but my photography class meets that night... mg

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: mg
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 12:33 AM

and might i suggest coming to Camp Alexandra in Vancouver B.c. if you can make it up from Portland...if you haven't been, it is an ear-opener..really great singing. I am going to try to make it but logistics are difficult...very very good singing..but even there I have seen blue books imposed...when some of the finest singers onthe planet were singing...mg

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 03:04 AM

Well, finally it looks like we will have a new book - in a couple of years. Peter Blood and Annie Patterson gave up on getting Sing Out! Magazine to publish a second Rise Up Singing, and they've signed a contract with Hal Leonard. Here's an e-mail from Peter Blood, dated 7 Dec 2012 (posted with permission):

Hi Joe!
Many of you have been asking us for years: when is the new songbook coming out? Well, we finally have some good news: we just signed a contract with Hal Leonard (which already distributes RUS to music stores) to do a new book with 1200 new songs for those who use & love Rise Up Singing!

We hope all of you will help us revisit the list we put together nearly 15 (OMG) years ago for another book. We attach a list of "criteria" to keep in mind in sending in suggestions.


In other news:

1. We are in the process of building a new website. It will be regularly updated with information about the new book as well as serve as a common ground space for people committed to grassroots participatory song in the tradition of Pete Seeger & Rise Up Singing. We are looking for a web developer to help us with this major project. Stay tuned. We'll let you know when it launches.

2. We are offering a holiday sale this year on our current website http://www.quakersong.org/ - free shipping on all orders & 20% off all orders of 5 or more CDs between now and January 6th. Help us clear out some inventory and raise money to help support us in the next two years of intense work bringing out the new book! If you can let the singalong folk in your area know about this we would appreciate it.

Please let us know if you need any changes to the notice for your singalong group at http://www.quakersong.org/singalongs/. Thanks for all you are doing to keep people singing!!
In song,
Annie & Peter

And an attachment:

Announcing a new songbook
by Annie Patterson & Peter Blood
(the creators of Rise Up Singing)
Rise Up Singing has helped create a singing movement around the world far beyond what we dreamed was possible when we first created it in 1988. Over the years it has become a beloved and valued resource for hundreds of thousands of music lovers and has helped people in many walks of life realize that their voices matter. We are proud of the journey that this grassroots songbook has taken over the years. Its success wouldn't have been possible without the help of so many friends who have either been there from the beginning or who have joined in along the way. Today, people sing together on a regular basis using our songbook as a resource in each other's homes & places of worship, libraries & community centers around the world. We feel grateful & humbled that our songbook has played a significant role in what Pete Seeger has called a quiet singing revolution in this new century.
Over the years songbook fans have often asked us: "When are you going to make another songbook with 1200 new songs for Rise Up Singing lovers?" The answer is…drum role, please…"NOW!" It's official. We just signed a contract with Hal Leonard Music and the work on the new book has begun.
You can help us make this new songbook just as great as the original book. We want you to help us identify your favorite songs that are not in RUS.
When we created RUS our years of songleading experience gave us a clear concept of the kinds of songs that would and wouldn't work well in the book. This time, we have a similar vision but will include more genres, different themes, and especially seek to include songs that are familiar and loved by young people today. If you want to send us your suggestions, please pay close attention to the following important guidelines and, above all, have fun!
Much love & thanks ~ Annie & Peter
What are the songs that:
•        You always thought should have been in RUS? ("How did that one get left out?!")
•        Are among the greatest easily singable RUS-type songs written in the past 30 years?
•        Are often requested or you wish you could lead when you get together to sing with others?
•        Are right "on the lips" of you & your friends?
•        You've been dying to get words & chords for to sing with family & friends?
If you want to send us a list, PLEASE include along with each song the following:
1) A way we can try out the song easily:
•        An email link to a Youtube video for the song (preferably one of good audio quality & by the song's composer or at least a well-known performer)
•        An emailed mp3 file
•        Mailing us a disc burned from your i-tune and CD collections, along with list
•        CDs that include one or more song recommendations
You can also cite a Sing Out! issue in which a song appears or copy the song from a leadsheet or songbook, but this is not the best method as it's harder to get a quick feel for the song from a leadsheet than an audio recording.
2) Background information you have about the song, (e.g. composer(s), artists who have recorded it, etc.)
3) Any evidence for including the song you can offer, such as its being widely "covered" by other artists, often sung in your circle of friends, requested at parties / singalongs, "known by all my friends", etc.

Selection Criteria.

We're looking for songs that:
1. Have easy-to-remember tunes (where you can sing the song successfully with just the lyrics & chords). Some factors that contribute to this "sing-ability" are:
•        Consistent musical structure (e.g. the melody repeats in a pattern of verses & choruses)
•        Steady, clearly defined rhythm
•        Relatively simple "catchy" melody
•        Easy and catchy chorus that has the same structure and lyrics each time
Good examples are:   This Land Is Your Land, With a Little Help from My Friends, If I Had a Hammer, O What a Beautiful Morning, Michael Row the Boat Ashore, Over the Rainbow.
2. Are not too difficult for your average "lay" singer & guitar player to pull off
•        Relatively easy chords
•        Not too wide a vocal range (e.g. more than an about 10 steps or an octave & a half)
3. Lend themselves well to group singing – e,g, songs that are
•        Used by songleaders that like to lead their audiences in songs
•        Not primarily "performance" (as opposed to participatory) type songs
•        Ones where audiences often join in when the song is performed
•        Not too lengthy (Turning Towards the Morning & I Wanna Be an Engineer are very long)
4. Are widely known - e.g. songs that
•        Were written or recorded by well-known musicians
•        Are frequently "covered" by other musicians (at performances, on CDs)
•        Appear in many songbooks (e.g. in collections of best-known songs of that particular genre)
•        Are often sung by people you know


Once again: We are very interested in songs from genres that were weakly represented in RUS – Examples include well-known, singable standards from country music, blues, bluegrass, jazz, "rock & roll", drinking songs, bawdy songs, and contemporary and African-American gospel. And we're especially looking for songs that are well-known and loved by young people under 30!



Send email submissions to: [e-mail]   or [e-mail]   
(Please include "song suggestions " in the subject line.)

If you want to mail us burn discs or other "hard" items, send them to:
Annie Patterson & Peter Blood
42 Jenks Street
Amherst MA 01002

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 08:47 PM

I look forward to buying it.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 09:58 PM

I don't see a request for accurate lyrics. That was a major problem with book 1... glaring errors.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 12:03 AM

Right, Bill - but now they can get the lyrics from Mudcat ;-)

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:50 AM

Glad that the typeface is larger. We were calling the book "rise up squinting".
If at all possible, it's important to memorize the words of the song that you are doing especially in a group setting to that your nose isn't in a book but aware of the people
around you.

There should be a book on how to memorize song lyrics.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 01:23 PM

My MAIN concern with people using ANY song book , wether RUS or their own note book is the way SOME people hold the book in front of them , so they are singing AT the bloody book and not to the audience .
And I still believe you cant do a song justice unless you KNOW the song WELL !!

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 01:27 PM

Ah, but memorizing lyrics requires some work.

And it means making that a priority.

Much easier, in this labor-saving age, to just open the book and sing the 2nd from the bottom on page 34.

Never mind that actually memorizing a song gives a sense of accomplishment--and another friend for life.   Much more important to save time and effort.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Stewart
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 03:47 PM

One of my first song books was Song Fest, by Dick and Beth Best, published by the Intercollegiate Outing Club Assoc. (I.O.C.A.) in 1954. The preface to the original collection had some interesting words of wisdom: "Because the fires of enthusiasm kindled at a rousing songfest, roaring most heartily… can't be artificially preserved for I.O.C.A. posterity, this song book is inevitably a mere woodpile. The motley crew who haphazardly, and with occasional splurge of energy, have thrown the pile together, haven't bothered about a few knots and flaws in the grain. They've gone out of their way to select good rough logs, which haven't been cut up, dried, and neatly sorted like those you find on any standard woodpile. They've tossed the big timbers in next to the small ones, but have tried to stack them up for easy reference. You'll find some of them won't burn very easily unless you corral an expert hand to touch them off, but plenty of room has been left on the pile for wood of you own choosing. In brief, the woodpilers herewith toss you the torch – and the tip that, not withstanding a random shot of smoke-in-the-eyes, which you may get in the early stages, no fire will burn more brightly than the one you concoct yourself." The following P.S. was added: "A reward of one left-hand dungaree patch, guaranteed not to rip, run, rust, tear, split, melt, break, etc. is hereby offered for the pelt of the first bohunk caught surreptiously using this book at a songfest."

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 04:29 PM

Well, I have to admit that when I was a Cubmaster, I fought hard against the Den Mothers who wanted printed lyrics sheets for campfires - and I never gave in and allowed them - but t campfires, I was there to teach the kids what I wanted them to sing, and teaching and learning was part of the process.

On the other hand, I've been a choir singer since fifth grade, so I use hymnals a lot - even though I rarely look at them. Still, I have to sing a song twenty times before I even begin to be able to sing it by memory, and I'm often expected to sing new pieces I've sung fewer than five times.

We use Rise Up Singing at the Sacramento Song Circle, and I'm often the only one not looking at the book. I know those songs well, but I keep the book on the floor in front of me so I can look to see the first word of a verse, and the like.

My opinion is, that the people whose use of a songbook is annoying, are people that are not very good singers. It doesn't have anything to do with whether they use a book or not - it's just that inexperienced singers tend to need books as "crutches." So...I think what the book-bashers are saying is that people who aren't at the bashers' level of accomplishment, shouldn't sing.

I don't buy it. It's a damn snooty attitude. I think everybody should be encouraged to sing - and it they need to sing from a book, so be it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 06:56 PM

No Argument with any of you !! Ron , Stewart and Joe . No problem with a new song needing a reminder at all , but DONT hold the words between you and the Audience.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 07:50 PM

Joe, we've been over this before--even on this thread.    Those of us who criticize the use of RUS in singarounds do not say users of books should not sing.   That's a straw man.

My gripe, for instance is only with RUS as a crutch--only that particular book. I would say that any book the singer has actually put together personally of his or her own songs--or just a piece of paper-- is just fine.    The likelihood of somebody who has put such a book together knowing the song well enough to put it across convincingly is quite high.   The likelihood of somebody---who has spent $14.95 or whatever RUS costs and brought RUS to the sing--knowing the song is hugely less.    RUS just makes it too easy to never really learn a song.    That's why it's a good resource, among many----and should be left at home.

It's possible that you may even consider yourself a non-singer.   That's selling yourself short. I've heard you sing songs--with no paper at all in front of you.   It was great. For so many people it's just a matter of confidence.

I can't speak for all, of course, but for me RUS is far, far worse than any other aid at a session. It is the most likely aid of all; there is likely to be more than one of that book, and it just makes it too bloody easy to avoid ever learning a song--gee, is there an echo here? Not only that but with the number of verses often printed for a song, the rest of us must listen while the "leader" stumbles through every blessed one in the book--even if said "leader" has never seen some of the verses before. That is the opposite of a satisfying musical experience.

Again, I can't speak for all but I have unlimited empathy for somebody who considers himself or herself to be a non-singer actually trying to get through a song without RUS--forgetting words, leaving out verses, radically changing the tune, etc.   That person has made an effort.    I have zero sympathy for anybody who uses RUS at a sing--that shows no effort whatsoever.

And it seems crazy that everybody should insist on singing every word of every song--another excuse for using RUS, AKA the Blue Book of Death, at a sing..   i love to sing, but i'm completely fine with listening to somebody else sing verses, and just joining in the chorus. If there is no chorus, that puts a huge burden on the singer to keep the interest of the listeners--so in general I don't sing ballads--none without refrains. Also if you want a sense of collaborative music-making, a chorus or refrain can virtually always give that---you don't need to sing every word.

I will even leave a sing if RUS is used--it's just that visceral.    And I think i'm not alone.

I in fact have left our local open sing for that reason--years ago.   And not regretted it.   I go to jams and music parties.    Nobody would even consider bringing that book to such an event.   I am a huge and hopeless music addict.   There are far too many opportunities for great music-making--of any number of types of music-- to spend time in a RUS session.   Only if there are great non-musical benefits to staying at a RUS session will I be there--and hoping the RUS portion of the program ends ASAP.

Consider for instance how many times RUS was used in the Peace Cabin this year---i believe it was zero.

If anybody wants "community sings" and requires that book, then fine.   Such a sing is the opposite of a jam or music party.   And those of us who feel that way will therefore go to the jams and parties--only.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 07:54 PM

"his or her own songs" i.e. songs he or she likes to sing.   I actually hope the person has not personally written all the songs--unless perhaps it's Randy Newman or John Prine.    But when either of these come to an open sing they are welcome to sing only their own songs.   For some reason they don't usually seem to bring a book to sing from.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 07:57 PM

Hey i got lucky 77!    77 Sunset Strip---you'll see the highbrows and the hipsters....Now that was a great theme song.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 08:55 PM

Well, Ron, maybe I find your attitude condescending because actually I think I'm a pretty darn good singer. This week I'm doing 11 Christmas carol gigs at nursing homes - all from memory - and the people love it. The songs I sing from memory are mostly camp songs, church songs, carols, and pop stuff. I sing gospel anywhere, because it's fun - but I don't sing the religious songs that mean something to me, when I'm outside a religious context. I don't think that's appropriate. And camp songs are fun, but one can't do a steady diet of camp songs.

I like to try new songs - and I find I learn songs best by performing them. I'd rather not flub the words, so I keep a "cheat sheet" at hand - but I do know songs quite well before I perform them. Just not well enough to feel comfortable without a lyrics sheet. And yes, I know most of the songs in Rise Up Singing very well, and I like to sing them when it's appropriate. If I don't have a crib sheet, sometimes I just flip a finger and the condescending folks and sing out of the blue book.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 09:11 PM

Joe--

"condescending"--I think you are being supersensitive.   Nobody is trying to imply you can't sing. I think you're a fine singer and I'm glad you have self-confidence as a singer--that's what it's all about. Everybody gets nervous singing in front of a group. I sure do. No problem there.

And using a "cheat sheet" is fine as far as I'm concerned--as I've noted more than once.

But the Blue Book of Death at a sing is not OK. That's the topic here--and that's my only point.

If all singers would keep RUS at home and not bring it to sings, all friction on this point would vanish. There'd be peace on earth--or something like that.

IF

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 09:56 PM

As has been already said, this topic has been dragged around almost as many times as "what is folk music". IMHO, it depends a lot on what you choose to call a sing. Going around a large circle while each person does the song of his/her choice, while the others there - mostly also experienced (if not 'good') singers - sing along with the choruses or the whole song is wonderful...and I envy you people on the watery sides of the country who have that opportunity (this is why we try to get to the Getaway every couple of years). On the other hand, some places are lucky to be able to get eight or ten people together who want to sing, much less who know all the words or are able to carry a tune. This is the crowd that RUS was designed for - and 75% of those who attend the song-circle here would be mute without it.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Janie
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 10:32 PM

What strikes me about these conversations and debates, including the current dialog between you, Ron and Joe, is how your different experiences have colored your reactions to people using RUS.

I don't have a lot of experience with "sings" and "song circles." Most of my singing has been singing alone on the front porch, late at night.

It kinda tickles me to read the dialog between the two of you. My experience of both of you is based solely on about 10 years of that remarkably musically intimate weekend of the Getaway. I experience both of you as supportive, inclusive and egalitarian, and experience both of you as delighting in the participatory experience.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 12:13 AM

Thanks, Janie. By the way I did certainly enjoy singing and playing with you at the Peace Cabin this year--and I still think your duet of several years ago on There'll Be No Church Tonight--can't remember your partner, though I can see her--- was a major highlight of that Getaway--especially since I'd never heard the song before and you guys did a delightful rendition.


I do try to support all other music-makers as much as I can. I especially enjoy singing harmony or playing harmony--just being part of the ensemble.   I love to try to help out anyone musically--as long as the person is not singing out of RUS. Making music as a group is endlessly satisfying--and it can easily be done without RUS.

It's just that the use of the book in question has been extremely deleterious to many open sings and similar occasions.    And I care too much about music to let that go. I suppose it's part of being a music addict.

It's certainly true that Joe is also endlessly helpful and supportive in any number of ways.
It's ironic that we seem to have this one little point of friction. I suppose it's possible he and I will have to agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 12:47 AM

I think it was Dani.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: JohnB
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:50 PM

I agree with all the comments to a greater or lesser degree.
I have ONE vain hope though, in these days of technology, I DO hope that they do not come out with the iphone version of RUS. I have seen too many doing that already.
JohnB

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: mg
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:58 PM

What I have seen is not just people using iphones for lyrics, but actually using it as their turn..playing something from the iphone...

Think all this through before it comes to your town. I have pretty much given up though.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 11:40 PM

From i-phones? (makes sign to ward off Devil).    Oh, c'mon.

Yeah, I know--just one more labor-saving device.    They could save even more labor by staying home and playing their i-phones to themselves.   Then they'd have an appreciative audience.


Looks like pretty much all "folk" singing may soon have to be by invitation only.

As they say, not the end of the world---but you can see it from there.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: mg
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:14 AM

I think there needs to be some at least suggestions for new people wanting to use the book in an establsihed group..this is futile because I think almost any established group in us and perhaps cn has been taken over..

But if you find a virgin group, ask what the preference is for the books. If you don't see books, except for the personal use of the singer, assume that they might not want to use this particular book. In fact, some (including me) passionately do not want to use it. The sound of the music that is produced can go from wonderful to deadly in a few sessions. Or in an evening.

If it is a group that is set up with the intent of using this book, go for it. Enjoy it with enthusiasm. If you want to set up a group, do it however you like it. If you prefer the book, don't let people who prefer not the book talk you out of it.   It is your group.

The problem is people coming into established groups that have gone on for years and imposing the books. I mean bringing extra copies and standing there insisting you take one. If someone says no thank you, move on.

Same with camps. They are about my only form of music these days. I do not want to drive 200 miles, or more likely, mooch a ride with David, and sit through hours of those books under glaring flourescent lights in an endless circle. If I and others leave the group, it is because we want to do something else. There should always be a default room for the book likers, who also tend to like the flourescent lights I have noticed. If you want to sing out of the book, stay in that room. If you want to join others, who are not using the books, join them but don't use the books. You do not have the moral high ground. I do not have the moral high ground by insisting on joining a quilting group that has been around for years and not quilting the way they have developed. I do not expect every baseball team to let me play at my level when they are at a different level. This never means no one gets to sing. There is lots of singing, choruses, sing along on songs oyou know, hum along. This is in the late night sessions at the camps...sometimes leaders emerge..let them..sing along but don't demand equal turns. That messes up the flow of the music. Taking turns messes up the flow. I am not talking about every song circle every places, I am talking about what I seek out in terms of music, and what others do as well. There should always be a default option of some nice room to sing with the books (Sunnycamp being the exception because there is only one building)...but don't impose them on people who don't like them.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:43 AM

While I personally dislike people singing from books, that's not the main problem with the folks that use RUS. The "Blue Book" has somehow gained the status of being an authority as well as being a crutch. I've attended (once each)sings where book-wielding participants would angrily proclaim "you're singing it wrong!"; I've seen people who insisted on announcing the page number for songs like "I've been working on the railroad", and people, who, when asked what key they wanted an accompianist to play in, looked it up in the book. I've seen several good singing groups effectively ruined by overuse of RUS; I've never seen one that was improved by it.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Genie
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:44 PM

Dick, I too get annoyed when people sing a song/line obviously wrong - when their common sense or familiarity with the song would tell them it was wrong - because they have their head buried in RUS (or a lyric sheet with a typo).   And I've seen people in song circles bury their heads in books while singing the refrain of "What shall we do with a drunken sailor?" Oy!

I do think, though, that sometimes song circles - especially singalongs - can be and have been enhanced by the group having access to lyrics for songs that are new to them (and don't have simple choruses) or that they sort of 'know' but only part of the lyrics.    I do like group singing, especially when the group adds harmony, and sometimes the only way to bring that about, without sticking to the same old uber-familiar songs, is to have a book or lyric sheet available.

I do wish, though, that in groups that use RUS (or another book), people would not react with hostility or chagrin if you point out a glaring error in the lyrics to a song (or to where RUS has changed the lyrics to make them more "politically correct").   I don't think the rule should be that the group has to sing the wrong lyrics or use wrong (or less interesting) chords just because that's what's printed in the book.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 05:05 PM

Sandy Paton once told me that a RUS-wielding member of an audience once yelled (literally) that he was singing a song wrong---one that he had collected.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Genie
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 05:53 PM

Bill D, I agree that for the new book - any book - the request should be for accurate lyrics (and chords).
One problem is that lyrics often vary from one singer or recording to another. That's especially true of traditional or other old folk songs, but it's also true of songs covered by different singers or even for different recordings/performances of the same song by the person who wrote it. Then there's the frequent situation where the "official" lyrics printed in the CD liner notes or a songbook are different in places from what's sung on the recording.

That said, some additional proofreading would be appreciated, as well as some actual research into the correct (or preferred or most common) lyrics and chords, rather than just relying on one's memory.

I think Rise Up Singing is a very valuable reference tool, usually pretty reliable as to who wrote a song and when, etc., even if not always quite as reliable for lyrics & chords.   I just don't think its design/formatting makes it very useful as a "hymnal," much less a lyrics & chords sheet.

I think that groups that want to use RUS - or any other song book - might have a better group singing experience if participants were encouraged to pick out some of the more often requested songs from the book and learn those songs so they don't have to keep their heads buried in the books.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:27 PM

A compromise reached by some groups that I sing with is that the leader (the person who calls the song) may use RUS or another crib (often, these days, electronic), and the rest should keep their heads up & sing as much as they know -- typically, no more than the chorus. That allows those who are getting on in years to avoid letting their forgetfulness disrupt the flow.

If possible (usually it is not), sitting around a table makes it less conspicuous who is glancing at a text, and eases conviviality in other ways.

I do not often use RUS these days, and I have not bought into any of the iThingies, but I have used my computer & copier to make specialized crib books for pub sings, filk sings, and general sings.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 09:39 PM

Peter Blood and Annie Patterson have released the song list for their soon-to-come second volume of the Rise Up Singing songbook, Rise Again. The new book is tentatively scheduled for release by Hal Leonard Music in Spring 2015. Format will be the same as in Rise Up Singing but all songs are new. For me, it's a list of a lot of new songs to learn, since I sing with groups that use these songbooks. I try to get people to actually learn these songs, so they don't sing with their noses buried in books.
Some of these songs, I'll never sing - but there are a lot of wonderful songs on the list, and I'm looking forward to the publication of this new songbook.
Here's the song list: http://www.quakersong.org/ra_chap_songlist/index.php

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again'
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 08:20 PM

As is well known, the world has passed me by. Most of the songs on the list, I've never heard of. Very little overlap with the 800 or so I've so far put in my own Magical book. (The thing now requires a backpack. I am seriously thinking of moving to a tablet.)

There are a few I am glad to see noticed. I am also glad to see a little more tolerance for naughtiness than in RUS.

Still no "Battle Hymn of the Republic", tho! And no "St Louis Blues"! I suppose there is too much Bad Taste in them.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again'
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 08:41 PM

I am so excited! I have waited for this for a long time and still won't hold my breath, but I'm glad the book has reached this stage, and I still can't wait to buy it!

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 05:08 AM

Well, the book is taking shape, and I signed up as a volunteer. It's hard work, but I'm really enjoying it. In the next several months, you'll see a lot of Mudcat threads on songs in the new book.

Click here for more information on the new Rise Again Group Singing Songbook.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again'
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 06:30 AM

I noticed that this very good thread has been re-vitalized again ... after NINE YEARS! I find that very interesting.

I re-read most every posting and I find that I have much the same feelings about "the book" that I've always had. It's a very fine refernece book, but it should be left home on the reference shelf and should not be brought to hoots.

As so many catters, who are more eloquant than I, have said: the presence and reliance on the book has ruined many hoots. I'll cite just one example:

In folk music, which really is oral history, the telling (singing) of the story is everything. From broadside ballads to current events, these stories must be told in all their accuracy and varients.

When any one source, such as "the book" is brought to a song session, it seriously inhibits the free flow and exchange of these tales.

I well remember a hoot I attended in Aberdeen, Washington (USA) in 1958. There were perhaps a dozen folksingers gathered before a roaring fire at the home of the late Richard Landberg. One singer started by singing "Danville Girl." This was follwed, by another singer, in the same key and without a break by "East Texas Red". This in turn was followed (again same key without a break) with yet another song of virtually the same melody and same basic theme. These songs continued for a full 25 minutes. When we had finally run out of songs that fit, we all were astounded with what we had just sung.

It's moments like this that stick in my memory.

Relying on "the book", or any book, defeats the purpose of folk music.

Just leave the book at home, where it belongs. bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again'
From: Genie
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 03:25 AM

"I have much the same feelings about "the book" that I've always had. It's a very fine refernece book, but it should be left home on the reference shelf and should not be brought to hoots."

I'm with you, Bob.

I often to keep my RUS in my gig bag, but mainly as a listing of possible songs to sing and/or as a reminder of the key or maybe the overall chord progression. It is really lousy as a book to sing from—and I do not think it was ever meant to be that kind of "songbook."

That said, I do look forward to "Rise Again," because there are so many "standards" and "Ameriana" and folk songs that had to be omitted from RUS.

Genie

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again'
From: Joe_F
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 07:02 PM

If it were my book, it would be called "Fall Down Singing".

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 07:32 PM

It's no accident this thread was dead for nine years, Bob (well, 7 years, 2005-2012). Editors Peter Blood and Annie Patterson submitted the list of songs for a new book to Sing Out! Magazine in 1997, and Sing Out! was supposed to produce a new book. But nothing happened. A couple of years ago, Peter and Annie signed a contract with Hal Leonard Music Publishing, and work on the book began again.

Peter and Annie will tell you exactly what Genie said, "I do not think it (Rise Up Singing) was ever meant to be that kind of 'songbook.'" They've held workshops all over the U.S. over the last twenty-five years, trying to encourage people to learn the songs, and to sing with their noses out of the book.

I've been thinking, though. The people who sing that way are in the process of learning the songs, and learning to sing together. They're not like many of us who have sung all our lives, who have a lots of songs in our heads that we can sing from memory. And they're exposing themselves to new songs that they haven't known. Should we deny them the chance to learn these songs and to learn to sing together, just because they're not "good enough" according to our standards? Give these people a break. Maybe they're not very good singers, but at least they're trying.

I think I have some 500-700 songs in my head, but many of those are kids' songs or church songs that aren't suited for singing on every occasion. So, I'm glad to have Rise Up Singing. I know most of the songs in the book, for better or for worse, and I don't have to do more than glance at the page to sing most of them.

I wanted to have input on the new songbook, and Peter Blood and Annie Patterson gave me free access. I'm a pretty good song researcher, and I intend to review every song in the book and add comments and corrections. So far, I've finished two chapters, Ballads and Old Songs and Blues. I've fully researched every one of the songs in those two chapters, and some of you have noticed some of the threads I have refreshed or started in the process. Peter and Annie are very receptive to the suggestions I've made, and they've consulted me on many matters. Next on my list is "British Invasion" songs.

Last night, though, I was researching Hebrew songs written by Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach (1925-1994), a fascinating person. I found the information Peter and Annie needed, and I learned a lot in the process.

As songbooks go, RUS is a pretty good songbook, and Peter and Annie have worked hard over the years to fix incorrect chords and lyrics that appeared in earlier editions. This time, we're hoping to make most of those corrections before the first edition appears. There are hard choices to make, though. Which version of See See Rider should be used, since there are so many versions that are so different from each other? I'm pushing for the one by Big Bill Broonzy, with a caveat added stating that there are other, very different versions from Ma Rainey, Leadbelly, Mississippi John Hurt, and Eric Burdon. I submitted a proposal for an instruction box titled "how to sing a ballad or old song," telling people that there are many versions of almost every old song, and no one is the "right" version. Peter and Annie liked my instructions box.

I'm hoping that I will have time to ensure that every song in that book will be compared with the versions you have posted at Mudcat...and Mudcat and the Digital Tradition are already a major source for many, many of the lyrics in the new book.

-Joe-

Here's the instruction box I've submitted for inclusion in the songbook:

As is the nature of Ballads and Old Songs, there are many versions of almost every song in this chapter, and in many other chapters in this book. There is no "correct" version of any traditional song, and the versions used here are certainly not intended to be the "definitive versions. For the most part, they were chosen simply because they are reasonably authentic versions that work well for group singing. When you sing a ballad or any old song, remember that the most important thing is to tell the story well. Research the many versions of a song when you learn it and listen to a number of recordings, and feel free to substitute words and verses and even melodies that work best for you. Make your presentation of the song clear and interesting and lively. Do your best to memorize the lyrics, and don't be afraid to make up a line or a verse "on the fly" if you forget. Don't be a slave to any particular version of the song - sing what works best for you. And never, never tell another singer that he/she is singing the "wrong" version of a song.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again'
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 10:33 PM

Joe ... Your imput is very important and your points are perfectlly takes. I should not have brought up the old and personal compaint about the use of the book in a way that the authors did not intend.

I do believe that there was an unfortunate period in some of our song circles, when RUS first became the most common reference book that it somehow achieved "biblical importance." When that happened, and I witnessed it, a very large body of singers became turned off and felt shut out.

I do thank you for your hard work and I'm sure your research will help greatly to make this new edition superb. CHEERS, bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again'
From: Stewart
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 11:15 AM

"Should we deny them the chance to learn these songs and to learn to sing together, just because they're not "good enough" according to our standards? Give these people a break. Maybe they're not very good singers, but at least they're trying."

The few times I've been to song circle recently affirms what I saw previously when I was more regular - people who don't make any effort to prepare for the session. When their turn comes they have no idea of what song they want to sing. They then choose a song that they don't know and everyone stumbles through with their heads in the book.

Now, not everyone in the circle is like that, but when you come to a circle I think you are obliged to prepare by choosing a few songs (three would usually do for a session) and learn those songs well enough to lead them. You don't have to completely memorize them - an occasional glance at the words is okay. But to come to the circle without any preparation is not acceptable if you want to participate with the group.

The introduction to the "old yellow songbook" Song Fest by Best & Best says it well: "Because the fires of enthusiasm kindled at a rousing songfest, roaring most heartily… can't be artificially preserved for I.O.C.A. posterity, this song book is inevitably a mere woodpile. The motley crew who haphazardly, and with occasional splurge of energy, have thrown the pile together, haven't bothered about a few knots and flaws in the grain. They've gone out of their way to select good rough logs, which haven't been cut up, dried, and neatly sorted like those you find on any standard woodpile. They've tossed the big timbers in next to the small ones, but have tried to stack them up for easy reference. You'll find some of them won't burn very easily unless you corral an expert hand to touch them off, but plenty of room has been left on the pile for wood of you own choosing. In brief, the woodpilers herewith toss you the torch – and the tip that, not withstanding a random shot of smoke-in-the-eyes, which you may get in the early stages, no fire will burn more brightly than the one you concoct yourself." The following P.S. was added: "A reward of one left-hand dungaree patch, guaranteed not to rip, run, rust, tear, split, melt, break, etc. is hereby offered for the pelt of the first bohunk caught surreptitiously using this book at a songfest."

Cheers, S. in Seattle