BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW

Subject: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 06:04 AM

This is a thread to which people can post to say that they've written to their MPs requesting that pressure must be put on the Loyalist Paramilitaries to decommission their weapons verifiably.

Who's first?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 05 - 06:42 AM

Guess;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:01 AM

Make it even easier.

Email your MP by clicking here.

I have.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:03 AM

My email...

Friday 13 May 2005

Dear Hazel Blears,

Congratulations on retaining your seat in the recent election and on
your promotion to the privy council. We once met when you were on
Salford Council and spoke at some length about your support for our
local folk festival. I hope you will agree on a more global and more
important issue!

It has come to my attention recently that while a lot of airtime is
being given to the decommisioning of arms by the Nationalist factions
in Northern Ireland very little seems to be being devoted to the
disarming of the Loyalist para-military groups. I am sure you will
agree that all such armed politics must cease and as such you will
press for equal pressure to be put on all sides to get rid of the
legacies of violence.

I look forward to your support for any moves which will help bring
peace to Ireland and to your reply.

Yours sincerely,

Dave Polshaw

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:06 AM

Fair play to you Dave.

Respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Pied Piper
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:15 AM

As the nationalists have decommissioned the Wolf Tones it's only fair that the other side put James Galway out of reach.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 08:04 AM

Let your keyboard do the talking then, PP.

Dave was kind enough to publish his mail here, although I wasn't going to go so far as to request that from people.

A simple '... mail has been sent', would suffice.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 13 May 05 - 08:09 AM

Wouldn't ' ALL TERRORIST weapons off the street NOW' be a even better idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 05 - 08:15 AM

I nicked Dave's letter and sent it as mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 13 May 05 - 08:36 AM

Bunnahabhain, you are quite correct but the nationalist side have been decommisioning weapons as part of the Good Friday Agreement. It has never been incumbent on loyalists to give up their weapons. What's good for the goose has also got to be good for the gander. Thank you Dave and Keith sincerely. Den

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 08:37 AM

Everyone calls for the Nationalists' weapons, bunnahabhain.

Do you not think it's about time to pressure on the Loyalists, for a change?

Sound, Keith.
Good on you ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 09:20 AM

I'm not going to be around for a few days..., so in order to keep this thread visible (unless we could make it a PermaThread...!!!???), I would respectfully ask some kind soul(s) to refresh it every once in a while.

I do not want this subject brushed aside, because we have heard enough about what 'We' should do, and not enough about what other 'factions' should be cajoled into doing, themselves.

Thank you very much, Dave and Keith. Your 'putting your neck out' on this one is greatly appreciated by me, and I'm sure (though I can't speak for them) the rest of the Nationalist posters on his forum.

Every little bit helps

Slán go fóill.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: heric
Date: 13 May 05 - 05:33 PM

gee whiz that was a heckuva oversight in negotiating

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:12 PM

I will refresh it daily.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:41 PM

The saddest thing about that Brucie is that it may need refreshing daily.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 13 May 05 - 09:33 PM

I am a monarchist I support your thread, there is no future in Irishmen killing Irishmen for the sake of Ireland. Catholic or Protestant we all bleed and die the same way... 500 years, it is time to say no more violence. Give peace a chance now, the alternative is much too horrible to contemplate.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tory Boy
Date: 13 May 05 - 11:14 PM

Tioc

Mail has been sent, as requested.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 13 May 05 - 11:24 PM

Heric, there have been many oversights where the loyalists are concerned. You will find that the media refers to their various armed groups as paramilitaries whereas the Nationalist armed groups are referred to as terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 May 05 - 11:31 PM

I don't have an MP.....just an idiot President

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 05 - 05:11 AM

sorcha no harm in writing to him, just make sure you use small words.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 May 05 - 05:25 AM

Bunnahabhain is right, ALL weapons shoud be decommissioned, and seen to be decommissioned, not in secrecy.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 14 May 05 - 10:44 AM

Gotta agree with that, eric.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 May 05 - 12:39 PM

I think the point is being made eric, that the call for decommissioning of weapons has been too one-sided so far. I think everyone accepts that all weapons should go; Sinn Féin call for ALL sides to de-militarise constantly.

Yet still, focus is always shifted back towards the IRA, as if it were the only protagonist in the situation.

This particular thread seem to have originated from a post I made in another one: HERE, as part of a discussion surrounding David Trimble's legacy now that his role in six county politics is, to all intents and purposes, over.

To date the IRA have verifiably destroyed a fair number of major arms dumps.
The only Loyalist group to hand in anything, was Billy Wright's/Johnny Adair's LVF; mostly a home-made assortment, and more dangerous, in cases to the person that's actually firing them, than the person they're actually being aimed at.
And there was only 9 of them in any case, with about 300 rounds of ammunition.

What Tiocfaidh has called for, and quite a lot of people accept... judging by the discussions on other relevant threads, is that Loyalist weapons must be called for to be de-commissioned, as well, and makes the point that platitudes are not enough any longer, if everybody agrees that all weapons must go.

How Dave the Gnome has formulated his mail, and I thank him sincerely for his 'leadership' on this one, is that while recognising that all weapons must disappear from politics..., a bit more pressure could be put on the other, Loyalist, factions to to so. Let them share the spotlight, as it were.

Thank you very much incidentally, all who have taken the trouble to mail your MP on this issue.

A levelling of the playing field is needed in 'N.I.' politics, and it should not mean a come down in anyone's stand on the matter, to lobby your local MP to call for more even-handedness while addressing the subject of de-commissioning.

To date, only the IRA and the British Army have pulled back. The Loyalists are still fully armed.
Hence my original call in the earlier thread for more pressure to be put on them.

It is strange however, that when people speak of handing in weapons, the terminology always used is either 'Sinn Féin/IRA' or 'ALL'
The term 'Security Forces/Loyalist Paramilitaries' never gets a look in..., unless those of us who live on the ground here, bring it up.
It should though, given that the term has been proven to be a correct description of the state of affairs in the courts, many times.

It is the main recruiting base for Ian Paisley's Third Force; the 'Police Service of Northern Ireland', if he had his way.
That can never be allowed to happen.

So, Loyalist Paramilitaries have to be called into the equation here.
To not do so is to ignore a very large part of the problem, and prolongs the inevitable socio-ecomomic amalgamation of both North and South of our island.
God almighty, there's only 5 million of us North and South.
Half the population of London, for heaven sakes.
It's not such an earth-shattering concept

It will happen, eventually.

So please...

Mail early.
Mail often.

We want the Loyalist weapons off the streets, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 05 - 03:28 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 03:29 PM

Was just gonna do that, GUEST. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Gervase
Date: 16 May 05 - 11:18 AM

Done! Letter sent.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:08 PM

Shall we call them what they are, on both sides? Not terrorists/paramillitaries/freedom fighters etc, but heavily armed criminals?

And yes, the calls for disarmament have mainly been directed at the Republican side, but we all know why.

1. It is far easier to deal with the (relativly) united Republicans, than the fragmented Loyalists.

2. The Loyalists are far less active than the Republicans on the mainland. Kill each other in Northern Ireland, and it's a problem the Goverment really should do something about. Kill people in London/Birmingham/Brighton, and now it's a real, urgent problem.

Of course, none of that matters now, as the Islamic terrorists are out to get us all...

Bunnhabhain

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:33 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 16 May 05 - 03:15 PM

You're right Bunnahabhain the Loyalists have been killing catholics for years and the Government did nothing about it but we all know why.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 16 May 05 - 07:36 PM

If we only called them 'heavily armed criminals' Bunnahabhain, I would imagine the priority in getting weapons off them would be less again. There are 'heavily armed criminals' in every major city in England.

No, the reason the calls for disarmament have been directed at the IRA, is because they were the only ones who agreed to it as part of the Good Friday Agreement. The Loyalist Paramilitaries were never pressured to do so, since the extreme right-wing of Unionism (DUP and beyond) denounced the Agreement from Day 1, and thereby exempt from the bindings of it. Paisley's oft-spoken ambition in fact, is to bring down the GFA (See above link in previous post).
And far from being fragmented, they are united especially as regards not sharing power with the Nationalists.
'Ulster says NO!', remember?

I think you exaggerate when you say that the IRA are active in Britain; they have been on ceasefire since before the Good Friday Agreement. The Loyalists of course, wreaked havoc on our mainland for all those years, quite notably in Dublin and Monaghan, 31 years ago today.

It does matter Bunnahabhain.
It matters to the Peace Process that Loyalist guns are removed from the equation.

Thank you Gervase, for taking the time to do this.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 12:42 AM

I really do not see the problem Bunnahabhain has with this motion... that Loyalist terror groups should be pressurised into handing THEIR weapons in.

From his 'better idea' of "ALL TERRORIST weapons off the street NOW" to... they're only "heavily armed criminals" anyway so "none of that matters now". In fact he never mentioned 'Loyalist' and 'terrorist' in the same paragraph, even.

I find that quite singular.
It's like 'Loyalist Terrorist' is a taboo word, or something

As for the reason that we all know of, ... why the the calls for disarmament have mainly been directed at the Republican side: "It is far easier to deal with the (relativly) united Republicans..."

Are you serious, Bunnahabhain?
Or have you lost your marbles?

Taking your logic one stage further though, I would wonder would you then advocate totally ignoring those that are not easy to deal with?

How would you know however, that they are hard to deal with, if you never dealt with them in the first place?

Or are you saying that you don't care one way or the other if all weapons stay exactly where they are?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 12:49 AM

What's wrong with saying 'Unionist Terrorist'?

Isn't that what they are, too?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:03 AM

Loyalist/unionist/terrorist, all the same thing.

Who was it who said that ' patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel '?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:58 AM

Samuel Johnson

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:00 AM

Samuel Johnson. But I think we need to bear in mind he said it in the 1770's. He probably didn't mean it in the context that people should be above defending their country against invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 17 May 05 - 09:48 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:35 PM

Guest 12.42,

Yes, I never mentioned used the words Loyalist and terrorist together. I also never used the words Republician and terrorist together. But they are terrorists, on both sides.

"The Loyalists are far less active than the Republicans on the mainland" I did mean to make that past tense, ie, "the Loyalist were far less...."; and specifying everything, " The Loyalists were less active than the IRA on the mainland of Britian, until the IRA declared a ceasefire", makes it three times as long, and appauling to read.

My last sentance was simply to point out that, just maybe, the similarities between the people are more important than the diffrences.

I am not trying to cause trouble, or delibratly mis-interpret what anyone says. If I was going to do that, I wouldn't put my name on it.

Bunnahabhain

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 18 May 05 - 09:34 AM

Hi all. It looks like our computer network will be down for about two days. Would someone be kind enough to help me fulfill my promise to Tiocfaidh? If you can and will, thank you very much. I think this is an important thread.

Bruce Murdoch

(Hey, maybe it ain't gonna help, but it ain't gonna hurt, either.)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 05 - 11:21 AM

I'll try to remember. Trouble is I have a memory like a. errr.. ummm... thingy.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 05 - 07:04 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 19 May 05 - 07:32 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 05 - 09:39 AM

Thank you, Robbie.

Seems the main server is down but this proxy may NOT be taken down. However, who knows? Thank you all for keeping this thread 'up there'.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: rumanci
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:26 PM

Mail has been sent to my MP and a supremely non-informative reply received ......I will try another nudge in his direction ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 19 May 05 - 04:08 PM

Thanks Rumanci and everyone who has written a letter. Thanks Dave for spearheading that. US catters can help too. US special envoy Mitchell Reiss needs to be educated too. This from the Belfast Telegraph:

Earlier yesterday in Belfast, Mr Bush's envoy set out the US administration's assessment of the situation, putting fresh pressure on the IRA to declare its total rejection of violence and backing for democracy, saying progress hinged on them making the right response.

Mr Reiss said he wanted a quick reply to the pre-election call by Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams for the IRA to abandon violence and it was vital that response is "very positive and unambiguous.

"Everybody is waiting to see Gerry Adams' call to the IRA. And I think that once we get that response, we will be in a better position to evaluate whether we can reach a deal or not."

He admitted there were concerns the situation could worsen if there was no early response from the IRA and things were allowed to drift through the summer. "Everyone I have spoken with so far recognises the need for the IRA to respond positively and everyone has said sooner is better than later. You are either going forward or you are not."

No such call apparently was made to the loyalists to give up their weapons or abandon violence. The UDA (Ulster Defense Association) remains the largest sectarian paramilitary organization in Northern Ireland. Yet there seems to be little or no pressure placed upon them.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: rumanci
Date: 19 May 05 - 07:27 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:54 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:50 AM

If I had a gun and was also a loyalist, I would hang onto it like grim death becacuse the IRA/Sinn Fein have a long long history of lying through their teeth!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 20 May 05 - 10:43 AM

flamenco ted maybe you'd care to elaborate. What would you say to all the innocent catholic families that have had loved ones butchered by loyalists? I'm sure your words would be comforting.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 12:19 PM

Computer still working. Thanks for the 'refresh'.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Jimmy C
Date: 20 May 05 - 03:49 PM

Flamenco Te - yoou do not know what you are talking about.

Others that have a much longer history of lying therough teir teeth include
- The British Government

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 03:56 PM

Ignore Ted he can't help himself chipping in on these conversations. He wasn't very visible on the thread asking for reasons for the Brits to stay in NI. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Jimmy C
Date: 20 May 05 - 03:59 PM

Flamenco Te - you do not know what you are talking about.

Others that have a much longer history of lying therough their teeth include
- The British Government
- The Northern Ireland Government
- The British Army
- The Police Services of Northern Ireland - formerly known as the   Royal Ulster Constabulary

Almost every loyalist politician that ever servced as Prime Minister (with the ecxception of Terence O'Neill)

The I.R.A. are still the ones who have adhered to teh cease-fire. If you want to give your 5 cents worth please get a little informed. There have been loyalists murders, kidnappings, drug dealing and violence almost on a daily basis and not one word prineted in many of the inetrnational newspapers. Just last week a murder was committed by loyalists outside the Chimney Corner Club, due to a drug deal gone bad - where is the outcry.

If this had been tagged on rebublicas it would hav ebeen all over the T.V, Newspapers, Radio for weeks on end.

There are many way to fight, some use a gun, some use a pen and at present the loyalists have the greatest number of pens !!!!!

I think in all honesty it is the rebublicans who have more reason to hold on to their weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:04 PM

And they say Irish Americans don't know what they are talking about. Go back to sleep, Ted.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: The Curator
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:06 PM

A point to remember is it was loyalists that shot dead the first RUC officer in the conflict. And it was loyalists that killed the last one with a pipe bomb. These are the same people Paisley, Robinson and McCrea stand shoulder to shoulder with.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: rumanci
Date: 20 May 05 - 06:48 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 06:50 PM

It's difficult to keep yer hands clean when you get blood all over them, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 May 05 - 09:36 PM

Murder and revenge are the long standing problems. Indoctrinating successive generations to hate each other only procreates violence and destruction. Weapons are not really the problem, it is the will not to use them first that is lacking. Courage in surrendering weapons shows good faith and willingness to try peacefull coexistance.
Without that show of commitment only the extremists rule. So far we see some IRA willingness to do this, but a one sided show will not satisfy anyone. Weapons can be replaced, so can the will to use them Loyalists must disarm too to show commitment to this peace initiative or it will surely fail....

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 May 05 - 04:11 AM

"Quemadmoeum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est." ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in the killer's hands.") -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the Younger" (ca. 4 BC-65 AD).

Also the origin of the term "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 May 05 - 05:29 AM

Regarding the Loyalists, wielding those weapons, the following information will give you an insight into Brit collusion with these murderers.

A senior UDA boss facing a murder charge was released on bail at Belfast Crown Court yesterday, [20-5-05].

William "Mo" Courtney is accused of murdering Alan McCullough a former UDA member and associate of Johnny Adair.
Courtney is the latest in a long line of Loyalist leaders to be granted bail while facing serious criminal charges.

In March 32 year-old Laurence Kincaid, a senior north Belfast loyalist, was granted bail despite facing charges of possessing class A drugs with intent to supply.

UDA leader Andre Shoukri was granted bail while facing charges of possessing a gun with intent to endanger life.
Shoukri had been caught with the gun during a loyalist feud in 2003. The trial judge ruled the self-confessed UDA leader was "not a danger to the public".

In December Ihab Shoukri, a brother of Andre and also a leading UDA figure, was granted bail while facing charges of murdering Alan McCullough.

In July 2003, Jim Fulton, a leading loyasist had his bail conditions changed so that he could take part in the July 12 marches.

Nationalist politicians and community leaders have expressed concern at the leniency courts have shown towards leadind loyalists.
Some have suggested that loyalists are being shown leniency because of Special Branch and British army intelligence links to loyalist paramilitaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 11:16 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 21 May 05 - 08:28 PM

I seem to remember Bobby Sands getting 14 years with no bail hearing for the same offence as Shoukri (Possession of a weapon). It will be interesting to see how much time he serves. My guess is none.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,rumanci
Date: 22 May 05 - 07:06 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 22 May 05 - 01:06 PM

Thank you, Rum.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 02:44 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: rumanci
Date: 23 May 05 - 08:31 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 05 - 12:56 AM

C'mon, folks. This is important to ALL Irish people.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 05 - 10:18 AM

Once more for the morning here.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,DtG bout bickie again
Date: 24 May 05 - 10:41 AM

Just heard an interesting comment on the lunchtime news on Radio 2. The piece was about some report or another (don't you get sick of government reports at times...) which has come to the conclusion that the IRA are still recruiting and training people. No mention of the Loyalist para's recruiting and training:-( Do these people even look at Paisley and his crew?

In fairness the news also stated that the report concluded that both the Republicans AND Loyalists are involved in organised crime. Wonder how many millions it took them to work that little gem out..?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 May 05 - 10:50 AM

I rest my case Your Worship!!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:38 AM

Ted

Let me get this right ...... if you were a Loyalist you wouldn't give up your weapons because you wouldn't trust the Republicans to do the same.If you were a Republican you wouldn't give up your weapons because you wouldn't trust the Loyalists to do the same. I think you have an impasse here.
As has already been stated by others BOTH sides need to decommission arms but it would seem that most pressure is only being applied to one side.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 May 05 - 12:14 PM

Nick,
    If you click onto a couple of 'members' names in this thread, you will notice two things: 1) They only joined very recently. 2)They have only posted to, or started rather lopsided, invidious political threads, all apertaining to Northern Ireland.
      We now have the BNP in the music section, and pro IRA in the BS section. They are taking the piss.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 05 - 12:21 PM

Something you could never be accused of Ted?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: rumanci
Date: 24 May 05 - 01:24 PM

well .......I'm still waiting for response No. 2 from my MP
hmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 May 05 - 02:16 PM

Two public inquiries are talking place at the moment into the murders of Rosemary Nelson and Robert Hamill, both deaths are linked with collusion between the security forces and loyalist murder gangs. To date Pat Finucane`s family, like Rosemary Nelson a Solicitor,are still awaiting a public inquiry into his death.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,DtG - Back door again
Date: 24 May 05 - 06:32 PM

I'm getting worried about all this rear entry... But that's beside the point.

You may be right about new people starting invidious political threads but does that make them wrong Ted? Let me put the record strait on my count. I am neither a new member or one who starts politcal threads to cause discontent or envy! I have started many musical threads and even hosted a couple of Mudcat gatherings in Manchester. I do however respond quite often on topics I feel strongly about.

I was brought up Russian Orthodox but schooled in a Catholic school in Salford. My mother is officialy C of E but leans more to the Methodist faith, where she re-married recently. She has a love for Irish Rebel songs, even though her father was in the Black and Tans. My father is Polish, his father a Russian orthodox priest. He 'converted' us to Catholocism when I was very young. I am now of my very own strong but as yet nameless faith. (Jedi was already taken:-) )

I know a fair bit about injustice from a personal viewpoint and it struck me instantly that there was a distinct injustice in the Norn Iron 'peace process'. Just the same as I always felt it was unjust when the newspapers said that train drivers had brought the country to a standstill by striking rather than the government had brought it to a standstill by not paying a fair wage. Like the TV reporting that the miners were causing trouble and rioting rather than the fact that Thatcher was stiring up the trouble to take away the power the miners had.

Yes, I agree that this and other threads may have been started to agitate political comment and action but isn't that what folk music often does? If that is 'taking the piss' then I stand, as accused, with sample bottle in hand for all to see. But if that is the sum total of your argument against the thread then I think I will stick with this bandwagon rather than jump on yours. Hope you understand.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 05 - 07:19 PM

I apologize for asking this here: What does 'taking the piss' mean?

(It took me the better part of a year to find out what 'I can't be arsed' means, and I don't want to let it go that long--or leave it for a more propitious time, because I will forget.)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: DougR
Date: 24 May 05 - 07:33 PM

It means relieving yourself, brucie! You know, pee pee, or as you Canadians might say, wee wee. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 05 - 07:48 PM

Good one.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 05 - 03:46 AM

Taking the piss = Taking the Mickey: Winding someone up. Trying it on etc. Probably somewhere in between having a laugh at someone elses expense and pushing your luck.

Aka - Extracting the urine: Pulling my plonker:-)

Any clearer?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST, Guest Soldier boy
Date: 25 May 05 - 05:29 AM

Ii is quite a while from I contributed to this Site, the N Ireland threads always have an interest for me.
I like Jimmy C`s knowledge of the subject,also Dens, Ard Mhaca`s in particular who seems to ne spot on with his observations.

Having served a couple of tours in the early 1970s I can vouch for the fact that we leaned heavily on the RC`s, collusion there definitely was and I am sure that this is still the same to-day.

Keep contributing, as this Site is by far the most interesting on the web.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 05 - 06:23 AM

Liar!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 May 05 - 06:32 AM

Someone is still breeding them,

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 05 - 09:19 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 May 05 - 12:03 PM

The idiot who assumes that the Soldier boy is lying, is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 May 05 - 12:23 PM

Soldier boy was well known in Belfast during the early 1970's. I know, I was his boyfriend.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 May 05 - 12:24 PM

That last GUEST was not me. I am me.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 05 - 01:33 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:45 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 11:48 AM

In resopnse to Guest who questioned Soldier Boy, I suggest he get himself a copy of Soldier of the Queen by Bernard O`Mahony.

O`Mahony from the English midlands served in Northern Ireland in a Tank Regiment, this tells the true story of the Britsh Army`s role in Northern Ireland, an education for the ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:52 PM

For detailed accounts of what the British Government and their military are capable of read, The Dirty War, The Trigger men or God and the gun by Martin Dillon. They are very objective and exhaustively researched books by a very experienced investigative journalist.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tam the man
Date: 26 May 05 - 01:24 PM

All terrorist groups plus their weapons off the streets, The Irish Nationalists and the republicans are still killing people Omagh, R. McCartney for example, how many Loyalist terrorists have killed or threated to kill, and yet the IRA said that they would KILL anyone who Killed Robert McCartney. And they talk about Peace.
You will never get any form of peace as long as you have idiots like that in Northern Ireland.
There are other ways of dealing with your differences, Killing is not one of them.

Some of you might not agree with me, I'm a Scottish Nationalist, and unlike the Irish Nationalists or some of them, we in the SNP/SSP don't believe in KIlling.
This is my view and you don't have to agree with it.

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:43 PM

Tam from your last post it is blatantly obvious that you know absolutely nothing about what has gone on or is going on in N. Ireland and the tragedy is some people will agree with your view. Do a little Google search for loyalist murders since Good Friday came into effect, now that shouldn't be too taxing for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:06 PM

I didn't think that Tam would find anything or even bother his arse looking so I decided to give him a hand. here's one to get you started Tam:

Lisa Dorrian, 25, disappeared after a party at a caravan site in Ballyhalbert on 28 February (2005). Her body has not been found.

The LVF has said it intends to give a presbyterian minister a letter naming those it suspects of her murder.

"A range of loyalist sources have linked members and associates of the LVF to Lisa Dorrian's murder."

Lisa's murder has largely gone unnoticed around the Mudcat but it does bare some similarities to a murder that got plenty of people condemning Nationalists for.

Anyway Tam, I can help out with some more should your search not bear fruit.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:18 PM

For Tam.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Barry O
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:52 PM

Den:

Your previous posts on Mudcat have shown that you are a dense twat but let me just explain what shouldn't need explaining. ALL paramilitary groups should get rid of their weapons. These thugs need to stop feeding off the people of Northern Ireland.

Your constant "whataboutery" serves no purpose in solving the problems of Northern Ireland. The "eye for an eye" philosophy on both sides of the divide has long since left too many people blind.

The reason some of us in Mudcat have previously posted messages critical of the IRA is that prats like you have defended their involvement in the Robert McCartney murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:51 PM

Well Barry O, good name by the way. You seem like a reasonable sort? I usualy like to discuss things with people with civility if I can. I don't usually resort to name calling, I don't like to reduce things to certain levels. Its a little, well childish. Don't you think? Maybe thats how you communicate, I won't assume though. I think I have stated before that all paramilitaries should get rid of their weapons not just one side. I'll say that again in case you were distracted. All paramilitaries should get rid of their weapons. I'm sorry to hear that you consider me a prat, but I'll get over it. Mostly what I do here Barry is address misinformation. You can call it "whataboutery" but there's a lot of it about and most of it is unsubstaniated. You don't seem to be overly critical of the loyalist paramilitaries and their weapons or am I missing something. Maybe while you're at it you can tell me how I, "defended the involvement of the IRA in the Robert McCartney murder." And while I have you on a roll maybe you can tell us what should be done to get ALL weapons off the street. Now you have yourself a great day.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 26 May 05 - 06:20 PM

Oh almost forgot Barry you insulted me with the words twat and prat. There's almost a hint of a lyric there. You might want to develop that further you're obviously a person of some talent.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 07:23 PM

99

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 07:23 PM

Up the 'ra. This one's for ted.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:44 PM

Up the 'ra.

Here, that can mean 'up with to 'ra' or 'frig the 'ra'. Just thought I'd mention.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 05 - 10:08 AM

Second to last refresh here.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 05 - 07:03 AM

I have a reply from my MP, Mark Prisk. He writes

In relation to your question,I understand the reason why more air-time in the media is being given to the decommissioning of arms by nationalist factions, is due to Sinn Fein's "inextricable links" to the IRA. This is in conjunction with their strong electoral mandate makes such a link especially intolerable. It should be unthinkable that a political party with such ties to a para-military organisation can wield such power.

Although it is true that the Progressive Unionist Party (PUP) is similarly linked to para-military groups such as the Ulster Volunteer Force, the PUP's situation there is clearly somewhat different- as they have just 1 member in the Northern Ireland Assembly compared to Sinn Fein's 24.

I do however fully support any moves that will bring peace to the Province and I further believe that all paramilitary organisations should decommission their arms as part of the peace process.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 May 05 - 07:12 AM

I stand corrected, I just a daft eejit according to Den, I just made my views, and yet there are some who can't accept them.

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 May 05 - 07:15 AM

I'm Sorry about that Den, I never read the Scotsman.

That's why I didn't know about the loyalist thing.

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 May 05 - 07:34 AM

I might ask for your help Den, however I do sometimes bother my arse and look up these things.

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: The Curator
Date: 28 May 05 - 10:53 AM

Within the next four weeks there will be a statement regarding Republican weapons and explosives. There are a lot of people currently being asked their opinion. The outcome won't be enough to please the DUP, but then nothing ever does, they will want a period of quarantine. The bottom line is they will never accept catholic backsides in seats of government.It will be a difficult time for Republicans and the statement of a cessation of all military operations will be final.Before some of you go on about robberies and gangsters, every country in the world have criminal gangs, they are not all Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 05 - 05:56 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 05 - 02:51 PM

Last refresh.

Is anyone gonna send a message to government?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 05 - 10:22 AM

One more time hoping it will help achieve peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 05:52 PM

And yet once more.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:31 AM

Got a reply a couple of weeks back from Hazel and this has now been followed up with the response she sought from the NI office.

It is quite interesting in that it states quite categoricaly, and I quote vervatim here, "The Government through the mechanism of the Independant International Commision on Decommissioning, will resolutely continue to pursue comple decommissioning by all paramilitary organisations both republican amd loyalist"

The problem, they are saying, is not one of a one sided commission but rather of uneven reporting by the media. The under-secretary believes that due to the Provisional IRA's ties to Sinn Fein and the fact that Sinn Fein are now a major political party The PIRA gets, on the back of political coverage, a higher ammount of press coverage than the Loyalist para-military groups.

I am willing to belive that and I am quite happy that if the Government, at the highest level, are working towards a full decommissioning, we can safely ignore the rantings of Paisley and his minnions. I leave you with the final thought in the letter -

"We cannot force paramilitary organisations to decommission - but it is vital if Northern Ireland is to have a peaceful future that the decommissioning is completed and there is a cessation of all paramilitary activity thus stemming the rise of mafia-like culture that threatens to replace it.

The decommissioning of paramilitary weapons is only one element - although a vital one - in the process of taking violence out of politics in Northern Ireland permanently"

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 09:41 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 08:12 PM

Folks ought to see this once more--even if only for old time's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 10:22 AM

"If you click onto a couple of 'members' names in this thread, you will notice two things: 1) They only joined very recently. 2)They have only posted to, or started rather lopsided, invidious political threads, all apertaining to Northern Ireland." flamenco ted
Date: 24 May 05 - 12:14 PM

Jesus.... you're gullible

REFRESH!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: alanabit
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 11:44 AM

Maybe, but certainly not anonymous.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 06:47 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 08:45 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 09:29 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 02:10 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Brendy
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 12:39 PM

I wonder will the family of this guy get brought to the White House next Paddy's Day? Click Here

Just to re-iterate: ... in case anyone forgot

(about time someone started a thread like this)

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 03:26 AM

I am sure they will not be invited Brendy, but not because of which community he was from.
It seems that he was an activist in a paramilitary group, probably murdered by a rival group.

In contrast, Robert McCartney seemed to be an ordinary Joe who got in a fight with such a person, and supposedly respectable politicians became involved in the subsequent cover up.

His family were celebrated for the way they stood up to intimidation.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 04:32 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Brendy
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 01:24 PM

Well, Keith A, according to Peter Robinson (his MP), "There can be no place in any peaceful society for actions like this where someone going about their work is gunned down in a cold blooded fashion.."

Seems that puts him in the same classification of 'ordinary Joeness' as Bob McCartney, don't you think?

Now what was that you were saying about supposedly respectable politicians, again?

Give my head peace, Keith A, for God's sake....

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tam the man
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 07:24 AM

As I said why just Loyalist weapons, why not all terrorist weapons off the streets now, not just the Loyalists ones, what about the republicans and natonilsts ones as well.
then you would have true peace

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 07:58 AM

go back to sleep Tam

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tam the man
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 09:33 AM

oh very smart guest, another coward who is afraid to tell people their name

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tam the man
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 09:34 AM

if you have nothing to say then do say anything at all.

Guest

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tam the man
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 09:48 AM

and that is why there isn't any real peace in the world because idiots like guest (go to back to sleep, Tam)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:16 PM

And all the invidious Anti Irish threads over the years was just youse cunts taking the piss, eh Villa Lobos?

Tough titty Batman
Take it up the arse like a man, and go and hunt a few stags, for Chrissakes.

That would be more in your line

Tam???
Read the goddamn thread.

Either that, or go back to sleep

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tam the man
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:14 AM

Tir Eoghain, I was just giving my opinion, but you don't like to hear the other side do you.

snore

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tam the man
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:17 AM

Tir Eoghain,
Let's fortget this small thing, I am sorry if I have upset you. Its a pity the the terrorists on both sides of the 'troubles' can't do the same.

As I say that is the only way to true peace in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:46 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: The Curator
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 01:24 PM

It might be a good idea to take them off the streets Tam to stop them using them on eachother, another two shot last night. Then again why the rush.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:48 PM

Brendy,
Who could argue with the sentiment "There can be no place in any peaceful society for actions like this where someone going about their work is gunned down in a cold blooded fashion.."

Whatever his day job, he was reported as being an active member of a paramilitary group, and Robert McCartney was reported not to be.

If the reporting on either man was wrong and you know better, please share your inside knowledge.


Tir Eoghain,
Stag hunting. Hertford. Good one.

Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:19 PM

Read that link Brendy gave again, Keith "..He has been described as an associate of the Loyalist Volunteer Force."

McCartney has been described as having 'associations with Sinn Féin'

I'm sure the reporting on both men were impeccable, Keith.
How it is interpreted depends on how much the media drags the story out.
... and who runs the media whose reporting you swallow?

But there was no (and to date) has been no calls for Loyalist to disarm (as indeed you realised from the reply you received from your MP:

"In relation to your question,I understand the reason why more air-time in the media is being given to the decommissioning of arms by nationalist factions, is due to Sinn Fein's "inextricable links" to the IRA. This is in conjunction with their strong electoral mandate makes such a link especially intolerable. It should be unthinkable that a political party with such ties to a para-military organisation can wield such power.

Although it is true that the Progressive Unionist Party (PUP) is similarly linked to para-military groups such as the Ulster Volunteer Force, the PUP's situation there is clearly somewhat different- as they have just 1 member in the Northern Ireland Assembly compared to Sinn Fein's 24."

Ahh... so that's OK then, is it?
Gerry Adams and John Hume needn't have bothered heir arses way back in the old Downing Street Declaration days, in that case.

Weapons can be replaced, remember also.
Willingness and engagement in the Peace Process by the Unionists are the qualities that the Nationalist population want to see exuded. The 'handing in of the weapons' is meant to denote willingness.

Do you accept that because the PUP has only 1 member in the Assembly, they should be exempt from pressure to decommission?
When do you think the Loyalists should be as publicly pressurised in equal amounts?
When they have 2 members, 4, 6, 8,?
When should Peter Robinson and Ian Paisley call spades spades?

Do you accept the answer you got from your MP?

Cos really, Keith, it begs more questions than it addresses.

Yes indeed, Keith, Ted needs to be slapped into line good and proper every once in a while. You, however, could do with remembering that what's good for the goose, applies in equal measure for the gander.

No call for Loyalist weapons - no call for Republican weapons.

Or had you thought that Croppy had lain down?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: The Curator
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:25 PM

Tir Eoghain you wanted to hear the hate that poured out of their mouths in the various field meetings for the 12th today. If anyone in England said what they had said against another party there would have been uproar. Then again sure it's only Catholics the are offending, oh and by the way one did ask the UVF/LVF to not get into the game of murder as the IRA did,these groups mustn't have killed anyone before.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 09:57 PM

Therein lies the quandry, Keith.

On the one hand you have a fairly splintered enough Republican movement: There is the I.N.L.A, the Real I.R.A, (who planted the Omagh Bombs, remember), the

I.P.L.O., the I.R.S.P, the Continuity I.R.A. Group B., and the I.R.A. itself... all ideologically different to a large extent (though the focus of their struggle was, and

always has been the removal of the British presence on our mainland); only one of whom ever declared a proper ceasefire.

On the other hand you have a fairly splintered enough Loyalist movement; engaged in a territorial feud (Eastasia/Eurasia), ideologically united in their main

goal, however: the sectarian murder of Catholics... for NO OTHER REASON than for the fact that they are Catholics. That is their main goal, Keith.

Politically they have always been the majority. Why else would they try and intimidate as many of us as possible out of their country?
If more than 5 percent of the Catholic population had have been murdered in the North of Ireland, the figure would have been enough to warrant the term 'Genocide'
So let's get a few things in perspective, here, Keith.

I am reminded of a Jeremy Paxman (I'm almost certain it was him) interview with Oliver Tambo, the former leader in exile of the A.N.C., many years ago, where

Paxman chided Tambo for not being more in control of his Organisation. (... they were killing rich White folks at an incredible rate, in fairness...).
Tambo told Paxman that it was precisely because of the A.N.C's. very tight control of his Organisation that the whole place hadn't been totally overrun long

before now, like some sort of modern day Isandlwana.

As Hazel Blears MP has told Dave "We cannot force paramilitary organisations to decommission".
No truer words were ever spoken.
So why has the I.R.A. offered the hand of peace in this way?
To set the ball rolling, gentle readers!

The Loyalists only want to hold on to the ball, Keith.
You know that. Tam the man knows that (... somebody give him a wee nudge, there...). If Barry O doesn't know it by now, then he's an ignorant

twat; Augusto Pinochet up the thread there, even knows it, despite the otherwise total lack of brain-cells in describing this thread as 'Pro I.R.A.'

There may well come a time when the I.R.A. as such, are in the minority, though.
The longer this stalemate plays out, the more the voices of discontent within the ranks can have the tendency to surface.
The more that happens, the more anti-Agreement splinter groups there become.
Anyone ever taken that thought to it's logical conclusion?

Ireland has been down this road before, Keith. So has England.
Denying the Nationalist population their rights has always landed the British into trouble.
I have heard words like 'This should never be allowed to happen again' bandied around in the last number of days, in other contexts.
Is anyone reading the writing on the wall?

You see what we have here, Keith, is an long established establishment in the North of Ireland. You have a charasmatic figurehead who preaches fundementalism and

hatred of his fellow man. You have a biased British media who, at its most pitiful, will claim the Irishman as their own if he wins the Tour de France or appears in a

film with Samuel L. Jackson, but will return him back to us the minute he becomes No. 2, or shags somebody that isn't his wife.You have a Police Force which still

harks itself back to the good old days of the R.U.C. And of course you have the 'Reservists'. Where did they go, I wonder? These perfectly legitimate arms of Law

Enforcement in the North of Ireland?
Now, if you are the kind of person who forgets names like 'Windscale', well then perhaps I have been writing far too cryptically for you, all along.

I thank you though, Keith; Dave, especially for starting this particular ball rolling. Tory Boy, Gervase, and all who did take the trouble to mail their MP at my request,

fair play to all of you.
You asked the proper questions, Dave and Keith, but in my opinion, you were replied with platitudes.
That, of course, had nothing to do with you; it's just the way things are.... and unfortunately have been down through the years.

Odd, though, how a thread calling for Loyalist weapons to be taken off the streets, can turn into a "what about Robert McCartney" thread.

HAL-LO-OH?

This has been the 12th of July, folks; the Gregorian equivalent of the original Battle of The Boyne, and as the Curator has pointed out, the same message of HATE

was preached from the podiums at their gatherings. What they want the LVF and UVF to do, is to stop the internal feuding: i.e. to stop killing themselves. Indeed I

heard no mention of the grave need for the Unionists to get into dialogue to help sort out the 'current impasse' in any of the news reports that I have seen or heard.

Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness do it all the time, however.

I'll write that again...

GERRY ADAMS AND MARTIN McGUINNESS DO IT ALL THE TIME, HOWEVER

Gerry tried to talk to the Police today in Belfast, to get them to be a bit more gentle in their

handling of that PEACEFUL PROTEST, and the stewards and himself were water cannoned for their efforts.
Burntollet all over again... .... there's also a little mention of our old friends, the Continuity I.R.A in that piece, incidentally.
It was also interesting to hear Gerry say to the News media that it was a "sizeable job trying to manage the situation" in the face of unnecessary heavy-handedness by

our newly renamed, and therefore, squeaky clean, Police Service of Northern Ireland.

Anybody reading Oliver Tambo's words with respect to this situation?

Ian Paisley for his part, called for the "root and branch destruction" of the IRA and its

weapons, and said that loyalist paramilitaries must also cease their activities.

Cease their activities!
Nothing remotely rootish or branchish about that chastisement, now is there?
Vane and Cromwell's terminology doesn't apply to their own....

Read Brendy's article on the Orange Order, that I stumbled across: here, and you get an insight into the Unionist/Loyalist mindset. There's enough

material on this site for those who want to see the wood. Flamenco Ted obviously is quite happy with the trees; it gives him something to piss up against, while

he's tally ho-ing along with the rest of his priviliged-class mates.
Get yourselves educated in the subject you want to discuss, and lay off the I.R.A until you know and accept what the alternatives are.
If you don't, you are ignoring at least 70% of the problem, and then you would warrant the title of 'Ignorant Twat', just like Barry O, Augusto Pinoted (like,

how much do you trust the wanker you voted for?), and selected others have earned themselves.
Then you would have to put up with us putting you right all the time.

And you don't like us doing that, do you?
Being educated by people you see as beneath you?

Brucie, you have been an absolute gem, my man!
I thank you for your engagement in this, far flung from the situation as you geographically are. A gentleman if ever there was one!
Everyone else who has contributed to keep this thread alive, kudos also from the bottom of my heart.
If I can judge anything by your comments, future discussions on the North of Ireland should never be the same as they have been to date.

Tomorrow the Sham Fight is in Scarva.
Now there's pitiful....

I'm off to Donegal.... See you soon, Tír Chonaill!!

Tiocfaidh Ardara!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 10:13 PM

Missed a hyperlink there... Brendy's Drumcree article is here: Click.

Line breaks courtesy of a Notepad copy & paste

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Brendy
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:29 AM

Keith?

One reason why I have stopped contributing to the BS section of this board is because of people like you who never seem to miss an opportunity to be gratuitously thick whenever the occasion demands.

I have spent long enough trying to appeal to your collective sense of justice, and I have dragged some of you kicking and screaming into empathic mode.

See me?
I'm a fucking musician.
I need your bullshit like the hole in the head some drunken cop tried to put into me a number of years ago.

Want me to share my 'inside knowledge'

Fuck off and experience it for yourself.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:54 AM

Go Brendy!

You're still the man!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 07:05 PM

Steady on lads.
I just said that McCartney was an ordinary Joe so could not fairly be compared to the LVF guy.
Why the anger?
I also asked if the media reporting was innaccurate?
How have I offended?
Just put me right if I am ill informed please.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 11:48 PM

Did you read any of the above posts, Keith?

I answered your question. Tiocfaidh answered your question. Brendy answered your question. Your MP answered your question, for crying out loud.

Let's go through this again, shall we?
(Tedious, eh?)

We are discussing getting Loyalist weapons off the streets.
You turned, what should have been an "I see your point..." kind of an answer to Brendy's "Loyalists blamed for city murder" link into "... well he deserved it, McCartney didn't because the papers say so... so to hell with the discussion on getting Loyalist weapons off the streets, I insist we concentrate on McCartney, cos he never harmed a fly...", kind of an answer.

What did your MP say, Keith?
What did Dave the Gnome's MP say?

UNEVEN REPORTING BY THE MEDIA, Keith.

Brendy reckoned you were being gratuitously thick (in the 'as two short planks' context, I would think...)
I might even have been tempted to agree with him in part.

I reckon however, that your desire for gossip outweighs your desire for truth, and in that regard it wouldn't really matter a damn how much over your head all this stuff is going.

You don't seem to read it.

Maybe if I told you to just join the dots instead, that may well appeal to the intellectual level that Brendy seemed to be attributing to you.

Things any clearer now?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Brendy
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 01:21 AM

Thanks Ciaran

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 02:36 AM

Keith, Regarding McCartney being "an ordinary Joe", I don`t know if you are aware that his friend, Brendan Devine has recently received 7 years in jail for armed robbery, birds of a feather. Sorry Tir Eoghain.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 03:59 AM

My pleasure, GUEST

'Ill informed' isn't the half of it, Keith.

They'll be picking us off from the rooftops, and you'll still be doing the Barry O 'whataboutery'

We've beaten the Straw Man to death on this thread, I think, Keith.

Whatabout the bluenoses being told to get the finger out?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:34 AM

From the Belfast Telegraph today:

The family of a young father of one who was shot dead by UVF gunmen yesterday rubbished claims he was in the LVF - and the organisation last night issued a statement saying he was not a member.

Craig McCausland, who was due to celebrate his 21st birthday next month, was hit by at least five bullets when masked men opened fire at a house in the Dhu Varren area of the Woodvale in Belfast on Monday morning.

Police said at the time Mr McCausland was killed by the UVF who believed he was a member of the rival LVF.

But detectives were not convinced he was a member of that organisation.

Last night the Press Association was told by an intermediary: "The LVF want to make it clear he did not belong to that group. He was not connected or linked and never has been.


Its interesting that Mr. McCausland's death is not receiving the same media frenzy that Mr. McCartney's did.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:37 AM

Oh wait a minute the election is over.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 10:54 AM

Go here for the full article that I quoted from.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 12:21 PM

I did not bring up the McCartney case. I just responded to Brendy on 3rd July who said

From: GUEST,Brendy - PM
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 12:39 PM
I wonder will the family of this guy get brought to the White House next Paddy's Day?


"This guy" was the man thought to be LVF (thnks for the family's denial and that of LVF Den)
The "White House " ref. was McCartney.

I was not complaining of not being answered, but of the abuse that came with it.
The tradition on this forum is that members from all countries discus events of the day. Members local to the events usually give the benefit of their local knowledge and experience without slating others for not being local.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:21 PM

The White House reference was the 'bandwagon', Keith. And the question was 'I wonder'?

The bandwagon, of course that still isn't attached to McCausland, and as Den points out, may well never be.

Loyalist guns kill innocent people too.
That is what we've been trying to tell you.

If its OK for the Loyalists to continue to carve up their territory, and blow all prospective competition to Kingdom Come, well then, anything goes, really.

Don't you think a few Loyalist bandwagons would be nice for a change?

All back to the question of Loyalist guns.
And one PUP Assembly member who hasn't been invited into the game of 'tig'.

I remember the time when there wasn't even an Assembly, and the IRA were 'on it' all the time

I remember Windscale too

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:01 PM

Slow down there Keith we're talking about two different murders here, I know... its hard to keep up, hence the title of this thread. Hopefully Tam is still reading.

The murder you're refering to:

From: GUEST,Brendy - PM
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 12:39 PM
I wonder will the family of this guy get brought to the White House next Paddy's Day?,

is the murder of Jameson Lockhart who was murdered on July 1st. Craig McCausland was murdered July 13th. Come on Keith make an effort. I have supplied relevant links.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 01:17 AM

The "bandwagon" was not attatched to McCartney because of the community his killers were from.
I don't think his murder was even repoted here.

The big story was that his sisters, in defiance of IRA intimidation, claimed senior Sinn Feiners were involved in the subsequent cover up, and large numbers of Short Strand Nationalists were (briefly) prepared to take to the streets to support the family.

If UDR politicians were accused of covering up the loyalist murders the outcry would be the same and comparison could be made.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 02:25 AM

That is precisely the point, Keith.
Going by track record (documented incidences of collusion), it wouldn't, and outside of nicking someone elses letter to send to your MP you, nor anybody else seems to want to open that can of worms.

Brendy didn't bring up McCartney, Keith.
Why the fuck are you still concentrating on this?
You are negating the relevance of the discussion by being gratuitously thick
Consider Jameson Lockhart a guy that has just as much right to life as anyone else, and take your sides from there.

Loyalist weapons off the street?
Mmmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 02:28 AM

This is like pulling teeth...

Keith!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 11:28 AM

I am sorry, but Brendy did start this debate on 3rd July.
Look back for yourself.
(Tam did mention the name on 26th May but no one followed that up)
It is not about anyones right to life.

As I keep trying to explain to you,
IT WAS NOT THE KILLING BUT THE COVER UP THAT MADE MCCARTNEY'S CASE DIFFERENT.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 11:32 AM

Pulling teeth is right!
I said that on the very next post to Brendy's, and how many times since?

IT WAS NOT THE KILLING BUT THE COVER UP THAT MADE MCCARTNEY'S CASE DIFFERENT.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: The Curator
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 11:34 AM

In answer to above, The McCartney case held many peoples interest because they hoped the government would say it was a Privisional Irish Republican Army murder, and that they were going to view the cease fire void,that's why. His sisters were pumped by the PSNI to get locals to rid the area of any volunteers. I have stated before and I will state again no unit acted under an order to kill him, it was a bar fight and yes Republicans were involved. There is a hope among many that things will re start again, so they can get into Republicans with the boot. I am more interested in watching the government and police service answer questions in the public inquiries next year. This thread is about Loyalist weapons, keep to the thread please.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 11:48 AM

Did it hold many people's interest?
Not here it didn't.
Not until days later when the sisters said that senior Sinn Fein members were involved IN THE COVER UP

IT WAS NOT THE KILLING BUT THE COVER UP THAT MADE MCCARTNEY'S CASE DIFFERENT.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 11:52 AM

And,
perhaps I am thick, but am I the only one who has no idea what the significance of Windscale (now Sellafield) is?

(Is anyone else still following this stuff)

Keith
(sans teeth)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 12:34 PM

Barry O brought it up on May 26, and was trying to slate Den about it. (You don't read, Keith)
Brendy brought up the bandwagon - remember that ANYONE not wishing to be caught at ANYTHING will try to cover their crime up.
As for the 'outrage' that followed. Think 'stage managed', and you start to scrape under the surface
One guy died after a scrap in a pub, Loyalist guns, used under sanction from their leadership, have killed the others.

You don't see the significance of 'Windscale'?
Even after you drew the connection?

Gratuitous isn't the word Keith
Either that or you've a strong set of gums

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 12:42 PM

It is strange that a number of people can say McCartney this, McCartney that, yet when one person mentions the White House, all of a sudden that is meant to be a reference to someone whose name he never even mentioned...

That is precisely the problem with getting rid of Loyalist weapons, Keith.

EVERYBODY wants to concentrate on something else.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Windscale renamed 'Sellafield' to (among other things) try and get the bad association the general public had with the original name?

... giving you a wee bit of help here, Keith..

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:46 AM

The way I see it, Keith is the one who insists on bringing up McCartney

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: The Curator
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 11:44 AM

Loyalist weapons have been killing non stop since the cease fires were called. If the Provisional weapons had been as hot no doubt we would be hearing a lot more about it.Loyalist politicans tend to over look the actions of those that they shared platforms with.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:34 PM

I refer back to the answer I got from the NI office.

"We cannot force paramilitary organisations to decommission - but it is vital if Northern Ireland is to have a peaceful future that the decommissioning is completed and there is a cessation of all paramilitary activity thus stemming the rise of mafia-like culture that threatens to replace it.

The decommissioning of paramilitary weapons is only one element - although a vital one - in the process of taking violence out of politics in Northern Ireland permanently"

Am I the only Englishman (Polish/Russian/Welsh/English if truth be known!) that can see that the McCartney case has been deliberately forced into the news by someone (I am not even going to attempt to say who) who wished to see the Republican politicians disgraced by this?

OK - I will happily admit that

IT WAS NOT THE KILLING BUT THE COVER UP THAT MADE MCCARTNEY'S CASE DIFFERENT.

but does this not show the whole fracas up for what it is? It was simply an example of "the Mafia-like culture" that is threatening to replace sectarian violence. This realy does smack of the ones-I-would-not-name-earler (Sorry caught up in Harry Potter at the moment) clutching at straws to try and prove that the IRA have not de-commisioned? To try and justify the fact that they have not?

Call me an old cynic but...

Sorry. Can't think of the but. Just call me an old cynic.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Midnight toker
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 05:20 PM

I'll tell you this for nothin. I would prefer to buy my weekly 20 spot off a Proddy gang, than any of your Yardies or Nigerians.

Better the devil you know, in my opinion

Maybe next can we talk about where all the heroin is in NI, who pushes it, and who refuses to even discuss the idea of pushing it.

Ethics in drug dealing?

Where else would you get it?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 06:54 AM

"It's got to be a case of Unionist and Loyalist politicians standing up and being proactive about what is emanating from their community...."

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 12:53 PM

I was wrong, not just Tam but Dave O did also mention McCartney on 26th May. No one picked it up, the thread died, and nine days later Brendy mentioned it again and I replied.
So Guest and others I really am not the one that brings it up except by replying to others.

Brendy did not just mention the White House, but a murder victim's family being invited there. Who else but McCartney?

Dave T G you old cynic, the amazing thing about the mcCartney sisters is that they had no political connections outside the Nationalist movement. They achieved what they did alone.

Man dies in pub brawl, no story.
Victim's family and local Nationalist people accuse party officials and candidates of colluding to cover up murder and intimidate witnesses, and all in the run up to an election, that would make headlines anywhere in the world.

No wonder some of you wish it would go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,victor
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 12:01 PM

Agree totally with the sentiment of this thread, unfortunately my mp is a Loyalist from the DUP as such I don't think he would take much notice of my e-mail, though I will send it anyway :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 12:47 PM

"Dave T G you old cynic, the amazing thing about the mcCartney sisters is that they had no political connections outside the Nationalist movement. They achieved what they did alone.

That has to be the most un-informed statement of this century, Keith.

Nobody wants the McCartney case to go away (except perhaps to another thread...)

Remember that the case is still being investigated, and if there has been any covering-up, I'm sure it will be sorted out when the trial begins.

It'll be time enough for everyone to comment then, Keith

Lots of events are intertwined in our everyday, and hypocrisies are self-evident. You are the one who really brought the subject up here.... probably to avoid addressing the relevant points of this thread

Will you give over about McCartney, now?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 02:44 PM

Yes I will give over, unless someone again makes a post I can't agree with, like Brendy did.

Why can we not comment till after the trial though?
Because some of you dare not discuss the cover up before the trial?
"What ever you say, say nothing" ?

And of course, it may not all come out at the trial. It would be a recklessly brave witness who testified.


Welcome Victor.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: victor1
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:19 PM

Thanks Keith,

May I pass comment on the McCartney case, of all the people who were at the scene of the crime against Robert McCartney besides those involved in his murder, the person with the most knowledge of the events was the very person Robert was trying to protect his friend Brendy and on that particular note your comments above are most appropriate "What ever you say say nothing" given that his friend died protecting HIM one would have thought the very least he could do is speak out, he though has been strangely quiet and may be hiding more than he's prepared to reveal about the events of that awful night. By the way there have been 3 young Protestant men murdered by those from thier own community since Robert McCartneys death one of those a few hundred yards from the home of Robert but little or nothing has been said about justice for thier bereaved loved ones, not by the polititions nor the McCartney sisters nor the Irish,British,European or American governments all of whom(with the exception of his sisters of course) jumped on the Murder of Robert McCartney for political gain rather than Jusice for Robert.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:39 PM

I am not surprised Victor.
Killing is all too common.
In the mcCartney case, it was the cover up by Sinn fein that made it so different.
I tried to say that earlier in the thread.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: victor1
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:03 PM

On that Keith allow me to point out the cover up by the PUP in respect of the murders by thier military wing the UVF,Jameson Lockhart and Craig McCausland in particular mr McCausland a 19yr old and by all accounts totally innocent man both of whom have had little or no publicity nor calls for justice, justice for all is what I'm saying rather than chosen Justice for political gain, many many innocent lives have been lost in the conflict in Ireland and Britain but the calls for justice have been few and far between, Robert McCartneys murder was wrong and deserves justice regardless of Sinn Feins approach on the matter but that should apply to all those murdered, be it by Loyalists, British army, RUC, IRA, or state sponsered killers JUSTICE for one JUSTICE for all!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Brendy
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:32 PM

Keith, you are a classic example of someone with absolutely no lateral thought whatsoever.

After arguing the toss as to what I meant by the comment I made, introducing that link, I can tell you that more than any 'bandwagon' or somesuch, (because I think that any violent death; especially among the working class, should be a cause for outcry), its the unevenness of it all that I object to.

I was asking a rhetorical question, incidentally Keith. Every year various people get invited to the White House on St Patrick's day, for numerous reasons; Unionist politicians included.
Generally speaking, it's a big PR affair.

.. for the President of the US, that is.

Now I'm all for big PR affairs...., as long as everyone gets a fair shot at it. I know full well there will never be a chance of the family of that other guy getting to the White House, Keith.
Not for any reason.
(Why didn't I say 'The Late Late Show', instead?)

The Progressive Unionist Party notwithstanding their incredible promises of tax breaks, better hospitals, balh blah, were they to get in the driving seat, are spending most of their time these days fighting the International Monitoring Commission which '... recommends actions of political vetting against PUP members and those in society that are merely 'suspected' of having links with the PUP, or paramilitaries.'

Now there is a party with a few skeletons (some fairly live ones at that) in it's cupboard.
And basement.
And attic.

Sinn Féin, (who have gone through most of that process by their own volition) coverups will either be proven or disproven, and all along they have asked for openness. You can tell me that intimidation may be rife, and I could ask you to prove that too.

You have regurgitated the contents of several newspapers, and a few satellite TV news channels in your last number of posts, Keith, and you've just about managed to contradict yourself on a few occasions, to boot

There is one thing you must remember here, and that is the 'wider picture'

You don't see that with a pin-hole camera, unfortunately.

Get out of that mindset you are in, Keith, and embrace the injustice served (and that still is being served) upon the Nationalist population of the North of Ireland.

Tiocfaidh said that there are only 5 million of us.
I have always been of the opinion that sectarianism divides the working classes, and the sooner we get rid of all this irrelevant stuff like hating somone solely on the basis of their religion, the better off we'll all be.

We can't get rid of that kind of reasoning til we find something else in common.
And we can't find that commonness until there is equality.

There is no equality, Keith.
In any of it....

You don't seem to understand.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 10:07 AM

I agree with virtually everything in those last posts from Brendy and Victor.
Justice for all victims.

I think that those defiant sisters were the reason the McCartney bandwagon got started though.

Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 05:47 PM

Well you're wrong, Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 05:55 PM

... and you've just taken up most of the thread tripping out about it

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 06:00 PM

You haveyour own opinion I understand, but as for taking up the thread;
1 The original discussion had dried up.
2 I was only replyng to others, initially Brendy (3rdJuly, remember?)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 06:10 PM

The original discussion 'dried up' because you insisted on diverting the subject of the discussion: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW

You were replying to something you only thought was implied.

I don't have to remember, Keith. I can read

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 06:12 PM

... and this thread will not dry up, Keith.

It'll be brought back up so as people can be reminded.
Don't worry about that.

This subject will not go away

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 06:25 PM

"You have your own opinion I understand"

Ahhhhh, so what is it that you have been expressing, then?

We know the craic a bit more over here, Keith.

You people, on the other hand get it served up to you along with your boiled egg and toast in the morning, and you never question any of it

It'¨s nice when its all put into little boxes and wrapped up for you, isn't it.

Saves you from thinking

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:06 AM

It had dried up long before 3rd July. Count the number of unsuccessful attempts to refresh it.

Since then, this sub thread that you hate has generated 61 posts, and only 14 are mine.

But you should be happy. This thread achieved positive results. MPs lobbied by post and the profile of your grievance raised. That is unique for a BS thread.
Then, after it reached it's natural conclusion, this debate kept a Republican slogan on the Main Forum page of Mudcat for a couple more weeks.
And I was duped into helping you do it.
Nice work!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:26 AM

Didn't think that "Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW" was a Republican slogan, Keith.

This thread will dry up when Loyalist weapons get the same amount of media attention as ALL the rest do.

Then will this thread become irrelevant.

It's just a couple of days chat to you, Keith.
It's a fucking reality for us.
I will not ask you to keep that in mind, because you don't probably give a shit, anyway
(... your browser getting all of this?)

As for you being 'duped'... for God's sake, Keith you couldn't be duped into a discussion about Loyalist weapons, never mind furthering the Republican Cause.

No!
You had a blue hippopotamus in the corner of your sitting room, and you were trying to get us to prove that you didn't see it.

You take Piaget to new levels altogether

I'm not impressed

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:28 AM

Sorry you feel like that.
Good luck with your campaign anyway.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:40 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 02:02 PM

Given the degree of complicity that Britain has in the activities of loyalist paramilitary groups, is is no wonder that there appears to be a minimal level of concern in the PSNI,the Northern Ireland Office or London when loyalists begin to kill each other in sporadic feuding.

It is logistically convenient for the British that people who have been active participants in a prolonged process of collusion should be wiped out.
Dead men tell no tales.

Future historians may be able to trace how the majority of those who carried out so-called deniable operations on the urging of securocrats have simply been rubbed out, some even dying while held at her Majesty`s pleasure.

That is also why it is very difficult for anybody with an ounce of logic in their heads to accept or understand the basis of the current propaganda and public relations campaign directed against parts of the republican community by those same securocrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 02:34 AM

Loyalists have been using thier weapons albiet on each other in the last number of weeks, killing two people and injuring others, almost everyday there is a Loyalist shooting incident, are there calls for Loyalist decommisioning by any of the polititions who are obbsessed with Republican guns which are silent, I think not! Decommisioning is a ruse, it's another hurdle placed in the way of the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, surely the silence of guns is the most important achievment that way, lives are saved and some sense of normality can be retained.I listened yeaterday to Peter Robinson of the DUP waffle on at prime minsters question time about SF not condemming the rioting by nationalist youths, he barely touched on the fact that a young man was murdered by Loyalists in his own constituancy, a few hundred yards from his offices, if decommisioning was so important to him and his party, would he not be screaming the house down to take the guns that murdered that young man off the streets, instead he consentrates his energys on nationalists throwing stones! Time will tell if the decommisioning issue will be resolved, but if it ever is I am quite positive another hurdle will be thrown in the way of progress by Unionist/British securocrats/polititions to once again thwart peace on Irelands shores once and for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Jimmy C
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:39 AM

No unionist politician will ever take a stand against loyalists paramilitaries, if he/she ever did such a thing they can kiss their voter base goodbye. There is a structered process to publicize as much bad press against republicans as possible and to keep harping on anything that fits their anti-good Friday agreement agenda.

There is definitely a concentrated effort to whitewash any wrongs conmmitted by loyalists, this is obvious this past few weeks - so what else is new? -- it has been like that for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 12:38 PM

Unionists may well be against the GF agreement.
Why would the British Government be against it?
Blair was its chief architect.
(And why did Sinn Fein not vote for it?)
Is the Nationalist media scrupulously balanced, or do they sometimes play up Unionist wrong doings.

I was SERIOUSLY rebuked by Tir Eoghain for obtaining news through the media.
I wonder how he knows what goes on outside his own neighbourhood.
Perhaps he doesn't. He never writes about anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 02:52 PM

You were 'SERIOUSLY rebuked' by me for not being discerning enough when you read between lines.

"I wonder how he knows what goes on outside his own neighbourhood"

Very good, Keith.

What makes you think I'm male?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 03:15 PM

"Blair was its chief architect.
(And why did Sinn Fein not vote for it?)"

What kind of nonesense is that, Keith?

I'll tell you something about the Nationalist media.
It's not as 'defensive' as the Unionist media.

Reason being?

We don't have as much to hide

Now, you can take that with your customary pinch of washed and sun-dried Mediterranean sea salt if you wish, but it doesn't change the truth one iota.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 03:21 PM

What kind of nonsence?
Blair invested huge political capital in the agreement.
The agreement was not signed by the negotiating parties, a vote was taken and carried. Sinn Fein abstained.

It would be highly unusual for a girl to use such obscene language as you use on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 03:30 PM

You are talking about the Good Friday Agreement I take it, Keith... born of the Downing Street Declaration...?

Conceived by Gerry Adams and John Hume?

For which Hume and Trimble got the Nobel Peace Prize?

What are you rabbitting on about?

"It would be highly unusual for a girl to use such obscene language as you use on this forum."

Complete and utter bollocks, Keith.

You don't even judge a book by its cover....

You're not really doing too well on this one, Keith, are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 03:57 PM

he's sexist

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:21 PM

Er, who lives in Downing Street?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:24 PM

John Major.

... at the time of the DSD

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:24 PM

This one's for A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD

200!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:31 PM

keep to the subject, keith

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

You don't meet many girls do you.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:46 PM

Either that was the
start of a bad haiku, or
just a bad haiku

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:48 PM

he's trying to chat you up Tir

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 05:07 PM

Are you wearing a dress?
It's OK
We are all friends here.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 05:30 PM

Well... obscene is as obscene does, in my opinion, Keith.

And I can think of nothing more obscene than the establishment and justice system that you hold so dear to your heart.

What makes you think I'm female, by the way?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 05:32 PM

Are you starting to realise how much open to suggestion you are, Keith?

And I don't even write for the Express...

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 05:54 PM

Skirt and blouse then?
Surely not a twin set!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 06:02 PM

Keith, she's 13
i wouldn't go there if i were you

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 06:09 PM

I'm not superstitious!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 06:13 PM

no, youre a bloody fool

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:13 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:17 PM

.... But its still all one way

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:15 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:22 AM

... Here you go, Wolf tracks ...

Let's see how inclusive you are

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:58 AM

Despite his perfect English (better than mine) Wolfgang is German.
He may not be following this thread as its stated purpose was for folks to lobby their MPs
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:45 AM

I'm sure he has an ME one, Keith.

That's your lateral thinking letting you down again

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:43 PM

REFRESH!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:00 PM

Thank you, Ciaran.

Ahhh, Keith, what's the story?

I get imtimidated out of my home for the guts of a fortnight, and come back to see you making light of the whole situation.

And accusing us of preaching hatred, and spewing poison.

I don't believe it!

I would e-mail my MP for you
(although I would probably write my own, in fairness)
Wolfgang argues that Black is white all the time.

I absolutely love the blue hippopotamus reference, Tír Eoghain

LOL

(.. and that doesn't mean Loyal Orange Lodge...

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:33 PM

Ahh, you got home, alright...

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:37 PM

Ar ais, arís...

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:46 PM

This is really, REALLY, interesting....

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:27 AM

Loyalists behind church attacks

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:51 AM

That's got to be the quote of the century (from Tir Eoghain's link above), "police are keeping an open mind as to the motive." Nice to see that the repackaged PSNI are looking at things objectively;-).

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 09:08 AM

Iraq, maybe?

Beats me as to what the motive could be....

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 12:17 PM

Where's the outcry???

Where is the EQUALITY???

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 12:47 PM

Sorry Tir Eoghain no Sinn Fein members were involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:20 PM

Oh, what a shame Den...

And 'our Gjaeeaay' and 'the boul' Martin' are away off to the States, these days....

... And Michael McDowell has decided with equal magnanimity, to announce that the bhoys have now left the Army Council.

It's great for the old breed of politicians, innit?
They don't have to prove a goddamn thing when they make statements; just 'They are...', or 'They're not..' relying on their own 'integrity' to get the message through.

And we all know how full of integritas those parties are?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:31 PM

Comin out of their arses, it is...

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:31 PM

Yo, Ciaran!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:32 PM

..that was me... Off home again..

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:33 PM

Jolly hurley sticks, and all of that....

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: The Curator
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:04 PM

Statement to be read at 12.00 noon tomorrow by leadership of Irish Republican army stating war is over.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:23 PM

I'm asking this here because there appears to a few blokes who take an interest in the subject.

I'm afraid it's about the McCartney murder

The offer, that was widely reported, from the IRA to deal with the problem in, shall we say, an unorthodox way, baffles me.

Was it a lie, a bletherin idiot inside the IRA, or a deeply calculated move.

Seriously, what's the opinion.

If this has been cleared up in the general press, then I apologise but I didn't see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:40 PM

does this look like a fuckin information thread

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:45 PM

.... I forgot the question mark...

?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:48 PM

and your manners.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:51 PM

statement due.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:51 PM

No I didn't forget them.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: The Curator
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:02 PM

You have every right to ask that question. Someone will face trial for the murder. As to the Privisional IRA making an offer to deal with those involved, this was offered to the families. The offer was to ask those involved to leave Ireland or be shot for anti social activity, the family declined the offer.This has been the rule within most catholic areas for the past 35 years, so they made the offer due to the fact members were involved in the bar fight. This is looked upon with a very dim view.I have seen members put out of Ireland for a lot less. No one should be seen to use their position to advance their own postion or intimate. Hope this is of help GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:45 PM

Thanks for the answer.

One interesting question, well interesting for me anyhow.

You intimate that this has happened on several ocassions in the past, a sort of internal saction. Given the fact that everyone is becoming, shall we say, accomodating eg the release of the many held prisoners, the IRAs position, etc, does this mean the "exiles" will be allowed to return.

Shakey

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 09:43 AM

See what you make out of this, Shakey; I.R.A. Statement In Full

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 09:55 AM

Some reactions to statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:00 AM

I read the statement about half an hour ago, I think it's great news. To be honest they had already done this is practise, I don't understand why they didn't make the statement earlier I think it would have been in their best interests. Anyway hopefully now the pressure will fall heavily on the reverend motor-mouth.

Shakey

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,curious
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:06 AM

A sensible move and about time. Would have liked to have seen an apology to their innocent victims though. I hope they now achieve their aims peacably.

When they have no arms will they disband as an 'army?'.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:10 AM

You would just call them a 'y' then, wouldn't you?

(no arms???)

Joke?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:11 AM

From the statement.
We are conscious that many people suffered in the conflict.

Just accept it for what it is. Move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:14 AM

By the way I'm still interested if the "exiles" will be allowed home. I mean who's speaking for, they're unlikely to have a their own pressure group, about the only ones who don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:15 AM

.. to the LOYALIST WEAPONS

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:21 AM

Crossing our posts, Shakey.., meant to be a seamless reply to your 10.11 post, but there you go. We move on...

I would imagine if they say the War is over, then it's over.

Now the healing process can begin.

And Now that the Colosseum has been evacuated, the city has to be rebuilt.

And you know what they said about Rome...

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:25 AM

And you know what they said about Rome

It has a lot of roads?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:30 AM

Thinking more of the 24 hr reconstruction deadline....

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:34 AM

24 hr reconstruction deadline

Well yes but I'm a sarky bastard.

There are some on here who would leave out the sarky bit though.

It breaks my heart

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:34 AM

I wonder how many checkpoints were on the old Roman roads

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:35 AM

checkpoints ?

What you asking me for, didn't your lot build them all :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:37 AM

Sarky Shakey..

Sweet!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:39 AM

Ahh is 'Revisionism' raising it's ugly head here???

I suppose Iraq will have invaded itself by the time 20 years have passed...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:44 AM

Ahh is 'Revisionism' raising it's ugly head here???

If you're referring to crack about the checkpoints You've probably misunderstood though looking at it I could have done it a little better.

I was inferring that the roman roads were probably built by the irish.

I trust the sense of humour hasn't been put beyond use

Shakey

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:45 AM

I don't think you're a bastard, Shakey.

Not even a sarky one... ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,curious
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:51 AM

We reiterate our view that the armed struggle was entirely legitimate. We are conscious that many people suffered in the conflict.

Shakey I think it helps to provide the quote in context. Justifying it's actions falls way short of the apology to the innocent victims, that I had hoped it would include.

But life's not perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:51 AM

I don't think you're a bastard, Shakey.

Keep it to yourself or they'll move me to the music section.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:54 AM

Curious, I quoted a whole sentence.


I'm not going through it all again. Who does? What's the friggin point.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:56 AM

Keep it to yourself or they'll move me to the music section

A fate worse than Death Metal ;-)

Perhaps you would prefer if they hadn't had call an end to the Armed Struggle, curious?

We can all wait for apologies, my good person.

... all the way back to 1604

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:01 AM

Yeah, let's not forget that bastard William, you know the guy from Normandy, who invited him here.

Seriously curious, I understand what you're saying, I sympathise, but it's people hanging on to these things which is going to prevent us all moving on. You see below somebody wants an apology for something else.

Take a deep breath, swallow, and be glad for some good news, god knows there's precious little about.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:16 AM

Interesting, curious, that you have noted that this statement falls short of an apology to the innocent victims of the war. Does your curiousity extend to the innocents that have fallen victim to British Security Services complicity and the ongoing violence on the part of the Protestant para's?

Just curious meself,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:19 AM

Let's just not go there, any of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:23 AM

Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 07:22 AM

I don`t see this news getting any prominence on the BBC main news, had this been the IRA involved in murder and secterian bombing of Protestant Churches and homes it would have been another McCartney sisters bash.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:23 AM

It's because nobody really gives a damn, ard mhacha.
... as we all know.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again, that your average Brit is as anti Irish as at least your average Unionist.

Let us all consider, however, Governments and Assemblies formed in other political hotspots, a bit further away from our own back yard and see how they sell their processes to their General Public.
Guns, folks, are never really part of the equation.

Are they?

The average Brit has an almost morbid fascination with wallowing in the double standard.
Probably more so than your average right-wing oppressive regime anywhere else that you could mention.
At least there's no such thing as your average American anymore, but at least they all have a tendency to call a spade a spade, every once in a while.

Anti-Irish, and double standards.
A heady mix, even in the most trying of circumstances.

The media serve up rose-tinted column inches to people who just want to be re-assured that they're still the best at everything, and that they have it all sussed.

No need for sunglasses.

Prescription lenses will be provided
(Ian Paisley) sic

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:38 AM

Thankfully your 'average' Irishman isn't a murdering thug.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:42 AM

Thankfully none of us are

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:47 AM

Your average pillar of British Law Enforcement in the North was, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 12:18 PM

Get a good grip on your ankles and try and pull yourself out of the past. You seem in dire need of a new hobby.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 12:23 PM

I see they are still executing people in England, Guest be thankful you are not an innocent boy from Brazil.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 12:25 PM

Typical reply of a person who has its' head buried up its' arse.

... has to be a reader of 'The Sun'...

My hobby is to try and get people like you to abandon their double standards and to call for that 'Justice' that you seem to be very proud of.

Mail early and mail often, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 01:55 PM

Watercolours are relaxing.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 02:18 PM

Tiocfaidh and ard,

Thank-you.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 06:31 PM

Watercolours are relaxing, eh?

Well all I can say that it is very well for those Guests, who on one hand can invite us to get a good grip of our ankles for some odd reason, and who on the other hand advocate against doing precisely that.

By your postings you prove yourself to be one of the ruminants Tiocfaidh has described your type as being.

Your country is falling down around your ears, but you don't notice, because your ears happen to be attached to the side of your head.

... which in its turn is buried up your arse.

I love idiots like you who avoid the issue, even with blank Guest posting status.
You show your bigotry well
... without actually realising you're exuding it, yourselves.

Riddle me this, tho...
Why does a red cow give white milk, when it only eats green grass?
... feckin' eejit

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 06:32 PM

What are ye?

You're a feckin' eejit!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:37 PM

What isn't in the news these days

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 04:15 PM

"... PSNI's credibility currently in greatest danger of imploding."

I am

AMAZED at the apathy shown on this board by so-called 'average English people'
... I exclude, here, all those whodid actually mail their MP... It would seem that those who would like to think of themselves as 'average' are, in fact, quite singular.

Do I need to point out the double-standard again, for the rest of you?

You wouldn't put up with this in your own country.

.... nor Iraq, for that matter.

Hypocrites, the lot of you....

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 02:59 AM

Sinn Féin calls for Unionist Parties to use their influence....

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:56 AM

that your average Brit is as anti Irish as at least your average Unionist.

The average Brit has an almost morbid fascination with wallowing in the double standard

I have never seen any evidence of this. I am however willing to be educated. I suspect that the above statement is a knee jerk reation and for that, Tiocfaidh, I don't blame you at all. I occasionaly see the crap printed in the press and the bias shown on the news and shake my head in wonder at who believes it. I occasionaly have bouts of serious depression when I see the idiots spouting their anti [enter your own race/religion] hate on my TV screen.

Before I tar everyone else with the same brush though I stop to think about all the people I know. The sensitive and tolerant. The helpful and patient. The thoughtful and intelligent. And I realise that the idiots only make the news because they are in the minority. They are the unusual. They are NOT the average Brit.

Saying the average [anyone] is such and such is stereotyping. You may as well say the average Moslem is a terrorist. The average Jew is greedy. The average black is a rapist. Or the average Irishman is thick! I don't think anyone in their right mind feels that these statements would be acceptable nowadays. They are simply untrue.

If you can show me evidence that the 'average Brit' has any particular trait I am more than willing to stand corrected. If you can tell me what an 'average Brit' is I will be happy to perform the survey myself! If you change your sweeping statement to the 'average British politician' I may, just may, be tempted to agree.

Until then I will feel very uncomfortable that you consider me, my family and all my friends to be enemies.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:08 AM

Tír Chonaill said it in H3 headings, Dave.

... and we have been through this before.

If the Mudcat Café is a microcosm of society (it's a cross-section of something anyway...), then the general (average) British contributor, doesn't give two f***s about the double standard.

He doesn't seem to give a whole heap more in letters he writes to the editors of National newspapers, good old average British reader doesn't.

And not once have I heard him/her stand up in the Commons and relay the concerns of his/her constituents..., the indominitable average British voter.

You don't seem to be 'average', Dave.

You have no need to try and defend them

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: The Curator
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:47 AM

Loyalists have so many issues running through their ranks at the moment there is no way their weapons will be off the streets in the near future. There is an all out war to crush the LVF at present in Belfast,Lurgan and Portadown. The UVF are handling it, but the UDA are seeing their drug routes becoming the attention of the PSNI so they are now at odds with the UVF over it. This is going to get worse,no doubt about that, and within the UVF there is a leadership battle going on at present as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 06:20 AM

I'm not defending anyone, Tír Eoghain (Sorry - can't do squiggly things:-( ). Just want to make the point that stereotyping doesn't help anyone. Just the opposite. The Jews were stereotyped in Nazi Germany. The Blacks were stereotyped in South Africa. The Irish are stereotyped by a certain type of British 'comedian' (and I use the term loosely!)

You do make a very interesting point indeed though when you say the Mudcat cafe is a micrososm of society. I can certainly agree to that. That now being agreed on we need to take a view on what the average mudcatter is. Demographicaly I guess the average 'catter is half male, half female? Half English, Half American with a smattering of Irish, Scottish and Welsh?A good lump of Antipodean and a smidgeon of the generic European?

If we now relate that back to my original point is it fair to say that the average Mudcatter doesn't give two f***s about double standards? I think not. I know your term was that the general (average) British contributor, doesn't give etc. but I see very little evidence of this. Again I am willing to be educated. Has anyone done a study to determine if one section of the 'cat cares more about standards than another? Too difficult for me I am afraid but bring on the facts and I am more than willing to listen.

I am honestly not defending anyone. Just wondering how the perception of the 'average' anything arises. Completely co-incidentaly I have started playing a silly on-line game - Jennifer Government. It's creator, Max Barry, has written a couple of books and while I was browsing though a bit of his work the other day I came across this...

The first principle of marketing (okay, it's not the first, but it doesn't sound nearly as cool to say it's the third) is this: perception is reality. You see, a long time ago, some academic came up with the idea that reality doesn't actually exist. Or at least, if it does, no one can agree what it is. Because of perception.

Perception is the filter through which we view the world, and most of the time it's a handy thing to have: it generalizes the world

Do we all occasionaly suffer from this syndrome? ;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 06:37 AM

Only if you don't recognise it, Dave, I would imagine.

'Rose-tinted glasses' is another term.

I've sort've gone through the threads here, and the Irish-bashing threads (contributed to by British mudcatters) heavily outweigh the Injustice to the Irish-bashing threads, as contributed to by British mudcatters.

If there are extremes, there is a median
Medians are averages.

And perfectly legitimate when observing trends

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:17 AM

Mmmmm - OK. I'll accept that the Irish bashing threads outweigh the Injustice threads. I can't be bothered counting them and am quite happy to accept your observations here. But I don't think that means the 'average Brit' agrees. Does it?

Lets put it another way. Your perception is that the British hate the Irish. Why is this? I am only guessing but would I be close if I was to say it is because all the Brits that have come to your attention have been bashing the Irish? What about all the ones that have neither bashed or supported? Surely it is the minority that do either. The vast majority, I suspect, are realy unconcerned either way. And this is not just the British. I am afraid it is simply human nature. Ok, Ok - You are going to argue that the voting populace should do something about it. Of course they should. They should also do something about world poverty. They should also do something about global pollution. And they should, of course, all do something about apathy...

I think this idea that most Brits hate the Irish is, nowadays, unfounded. Not saying that it has never been so. I am sure it has. I think now though the idea of hating anyone for their race, religion or beliefs is as abhorant to most 'average Brits' as it is to me.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:26 AM

BTW I know what you mean about medians and averages. I studied statistics as part of my Business Studies course many years ago. The only thing I can say is that if you lay all the statisticians in the world end to end they still wouldn't reach a sensible conclusion. Applying mathematical principles to human nature just doesn't make sense. If, as you say, the extremes produce the average then we can in all honesty prove that the average Moslem is a terrorist, the average Black is a rapist, the average Jew is greedy and the average Irishman is indeed as dense as the proverbial peat bog.

Sorry, but the exteme case should never be taken into account when dealing with something as complex as the human being.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:34 AM

It is interesting, though; the folk tradition.
Normally it can take centuries for a song to drastically change.

You can turn the line: "your average Brit is as anti Irish as at least your average Unionist" (and the average Unionist is apathetic at the very least), Dave, to rebutt as: "I think this idea that most Brits hate the Irish is, nowadays, unfounded"

"Perception is the filter through which we view the world, and most of the time it's a handy thing to have"

Actually it's not!
In fact it's bloody dangerous most of the time...

'Facts' are reality. Marketing is geared towards people who have difficulty seeing facts, or who have difficulty in making up their minds for themselves.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:37 AM

I don't say 'extremes produce the average', Dave.
As a statistician, you shouldn't either.

Remember that the other end of the 'Moslem/terrorist' scale is the Muslim/non-terrorist'.

Where do you get that they all are?

Surely that's just one extreme?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:40 AM

"(and the average Unionist is apathetic at the very least),"

That was not meant to be in italics....

:-(

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:31 AM

If 'MAN A' expects civilised conversation/debate/input from 'MAN B'after they have been labelled, stereotyped and made assumptions of, they shouldn't misconstrue the lack of willingness of 'MAN B' to engage in the discourse as apathy.

It is more likely disinterest in comunicating with 'MAN A'. hemselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:38 AM

Pray tell me, Man C, what is the difference between 'apathy' and 'disinterest'?

Labels tend to be applied after the contents are checked, and the envelope sealed

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:41 AM

Hehehe - You are cheering up a slow work day no end, TE:-) I'm off in a few minutes though so may not be able to catch up till later.

I did assume (remember the old makes an ASS of U and ME line?) that your average Brit is as anti Irish as at least your average Unionist did mean that the average Brit was anti Irish. If it did indeed mean that the Unionists are in fact as apathetic as rest of us Brits I apologise unreservedly. I don't think that was the original meaning though and still stick to my conviction that yer 'average Brit' (whatever that may be) is not anti Irish at all.

A further apology is in order if my thought process are at fault with the phrase about medians and averages as well. I will take you though it so you can tell me where I went wrong.

If there are extremes, there is a median
Medians are averages.

To this poor little Gnomes limited powers of reasoning this seems to mean that the extremes are to be counted in when agreeing what an average is. In this context the implication is that the majority view is tainted because more Brits bash the Irish than support them? To simplify down to simple arithmetic terms if, out of 100 people, 2 earn £1,000,000 pounds per year, one earns £100 per year (the extremes) and 97 earn £1000 a year then the average earnings are a bit over £20,000. Arithmeticaly sound but to base your economy on this would be a bit odd. Basing any average on extremes is flaky territory which is why we use weighted and normalised averages. Mind you, 94.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot anyway... ;-)

And perfectly legitimate when observing trends

Sounds like a justification to use this median/average when classifying the average Brit as being anti-Irish. If it isn't can you clarify just what it is you are trying to prove? Bit much for me I'm afraid!

Anyroads, as I said before, must be off. This here non-average non-football supporting Brit is off to try and buy tickets for the Bolton / Blackburn game so I can take an non-average football supporting American to the game on in a couple of weeks.

Don't ask...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:49 AM

And then you'll get the sloppy labeller, who will slap anything on a tin, because he is either under the delusion he has the ability to guess the contents without a shake or thinks it's the easier option and requires no thought.

You wouldn't buy your weekly shop from a sloppy labeller. He would hold no interest to you. A discussion is a transaction of minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:54 AM

... The arithmetic is sound, but using the economy is not a good example...
Why not just leave it that the average earnings are a bit over £20,000?

That (in relative terms) is all I'm trying to prove

Anyway, it's well past my bed-time

Worry, still of course, is still the major cause of statistics.

Have a good weekend

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:57 AM

"And then you'll get the sloppy labeller, who will slap anything on a tin, because he is either under the delusion he has the ability to guess the contents without a shake or thinks it's the easier option and requires no thought."

Dave & I have already discussed marketing, Guest.
You take to the idea like a fish to water, evidently.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:17 AM

299 is the new 300.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:43 AM

Its nice to know that the American Right Wing v Liberal Bigotry is just as prevalent this side of the pond in the Loyalist/Republican bigotry !!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:44 AM

And I will stay with 00th posts especially when they have some pertinence to the thread .

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 10:52 AM

Eeeeeh - That was easier than I thought. My pre-conception of getting tickets for a football match were standing in the rain with a load of average football supporters, getting cans thrown at me, being jostled and having to endure a jobsworth on the ticket desk. It was rather pleasant instead with a small queue of good natured men and women, some very funny banter between Bolton and Blackburn supporters and an extemely helpful clerk on the ticket desk. Just shows how wrong you can be if you believe everything you hear about football fans. Wonder how often that mistake is made elsewhere? ;-)

Anyhow...

Why not just leave it that the average earnings are a bit over £20,000?

Because it is a very misleading statement. It would lead anyone without inside knowledge to believe that most of the group have that ammount of money whereas in fact that is blatantly untrue. Like comparing most of the population with a minority of extremists is also a false assumption.

Can we just agree that there are some people in Britain that are anti-Irish? I am happy to accept that. It is certainly true. Just like it is also true that there are some people in Britain who are willing to blow up tube trains and buses. Can we also agree that both sets of people are far from average though?

Hope you rest well and awake refreshed:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 01:57 PM

"Can we also agree that both sets of people are far from average though"

Not if they only contribute posts like the ones above yours, Dave

"Hope you rest well and awake refreshed:-)"

Perfect, thanks.

Ready for another shift....

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:18 PM

I don't know if I have been insulted or complimented! Really - I can't figure it out.

I think I'll finish that bottle of Viognier, have a sleep myself and think about it in the morning:-)

Goodnight and see you tomorrow.

:DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:47 PM

Alright, alright, alright already!
Time Out!

T

... gotcha Pete!!! ;-)

Let's buckle down, and look at what we've got, should we?

I said: "your average Brit is as anti Irish as at least your average Unionist".
Tír Eoghain has qualified that by saying: "and the average Unionist is apathetic at the very least"

That, dear friends is the nub of the matter!

When the most 'generous' one can be on the grievience addressing within a minority community curve is concerned, is apathetic, Dave, you are starting a bit further up the downright biased end of that scale to find where our happy medium lies...

Let's look at it another way...

Take the Nationality, 'British', for a start.
What is that?
English? Welsh? Scottish? 'Northern Irish' (God help us...)? Jamaican? Indian? Australian?

'British' transcends National Identities and boundaries, and by definition is Empirical, David, old sort.
It's pretty difficult to get past such an overblown sense of superiority, when you are part of the 'Irish Problem', for instance.

It's also pretty difficult to get past the Party Political System in England.
The Conservatives will go down the plughole still waving the Union Jack, as the European Economic Community sucks it in whole, eventually.
Labour has kicked out all it's militant voices, and now stay afloat on a river of Political Correctness and Governmental spin; spending most of their time these days (it seems to me) to be always steering clear of the rapids at the mouth of Shit Creek...

You talk of World Poverty and the like, and why aren't we more vocal in those fields, and I can't argue with you there, at all.
The North of Ireland is your own backyard, however and for years the Establishment wouldn't listen to our grieviences, wishing instead that we would just 'go away'
We then were beaten sensless because we 'would not go away'.
And when we couldn't take any more of this rejection, we came out of that corner and were forced, in turn, to kick a bit of butt, back.

Now a Brit would not accept that 'version' of it at all.
Wasn't put that way in the history books, Dave, was it?

It's also quite funny (in a peculiar sort of way), that those who refer to themselves as 'English', (as opposed to 'British') seem to be much more amenable on a personal level, and who tire of this 'John Bull' image that the Nation is wont to portray.

British people generally speaking therefore, are not sympathetic to the grieviences of the minority; they never have been historically, and their attiitude has not seemed to change one iota since the Good Friday Agreement
... Aaaand, if the best the average Brit can be is apathetic, and the worst is downright hostile, wherein lies the average, Dave?

If you look at the posters to the previous 'Irish Bashing' threads, and ask them to support your call for equality (.. and I have...), so far I can't see anyone who has done it.
I can see a lot of people who, when they do grace us with their presence, do it only to take a swipe at our strivations for better conditions and equality.
They never listened when we marched peacefully....

Any of the other posters here who indicated that they mailed their MP, have not historically posted anything Anti-Irish, that I have seen.

Now... perhaps not enough to make a quorum, but I was particularly referring to the average Brit here, contributing to these boards, and their anti-Irish bent.

You have more or less accepted that, I think.

But take the society as a whole.

Remember that Chicken Tikka Masala is not England's favourite dish because you're all fierce multi-culturalists.

It's because it takes 5 mins in the microwave... on full power...

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:45 PM

Phew! I think I know what you are on about, Tiocfaidh. But it is late on a Saturday;-)

I have problems with When the most 'generous' one can be on the grievience addressing within a minority community curve is concerned, is apathetic, Dave, you are starting a bit further up the downright biased end of that scale to find where our happy medium lies...

Ie - Not a clue what it means:-(

As to Now a Brit would not accept that 'version' of it at all.
Wasn't put that way in the history books, Dave, was it?

Again, wouldn't know. History books are so subjective don't you think? If I read one I have to read at least half a dozen. All disagree with each other. I'd rather listen to rumour...

Now. The crux as far as I see. I was particularly referring to the average Brit here, contributing to these boards, and their anti-Irish bent

There are indeed a number of people showing an anti-Irish bent here. I could probably name them all, it wouldn't take long. Which is my point all along. Because a very small percentage of the populus have had a go at the Irish is it right to say the average Brit is anti-Irish? I think not. But I am willing to accept that if a poll of British mudcatters shows an anti-Irish bent then I will accept that the average British 'catter is anti-Irish. In fact, I will start the poll myself. Whether people answer truthfuly or not is another matter;-)

Having been accused of defending the 'average Brit' once btw I feel I must put the record straight. I was born in England, love the place and will happily wave the flag of St George with the best of 'em. By ethnic origin however I am part Polish (now there IS an oppressed race!), part Russian, part Welsh and part English. My Grandparents were all first generation as listed. My father fled from Poland during WW2. I have no axe to grind whatsoever with people slagging of the British and will do so happily myself on most occasions. When they deserve it...

I do not think however that they deserve it in this case. The 'average Brit' on the Mudcat or anywhere else as far as I can see is no more anti-Irish than the average Pole, Russian or Welshman. There are a number of people here, as everywhere else, who will hold an anti-Irish viewpoint. I do not think that is a justification for saying that the average Brit is anti-Irish.

I am more than happy to be proven wrong and if anyone can provide me proof that an 'average' (by sensible standards) British contributor here or that an average Brit anywhere is anti-Irish I will hold up my hands in surrender. I don't think however that I will be suffering from shoulder strain in the near future:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:00 PM

Dave,

What do you think of Tiocfaidh's distinction between those that refer to themselves as English and those that refer to themselves as British? That seemed to be a key point of his.

As for history books being subjective, very true! When getting an advance degree in history, students have to take a course called "Historiography" which, in essence, is the history of history. It tries to show students how bias cannot be kept out of historical writings, even if one tries. Purpose being to make one really question the accuracy of what she reads and judge it accordingly.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:37 PM

I'm not sure, Epona. I cannot say I have ever noticed a difference between people calling themselves British or English. Out of interest I call myself English but it seems that in any official documention I do not have that option. I have to be British apparantly:-(

Likewise in any form in which I am asked to describe my ethnic origins there is no sectiion for 'mongrel';-) I once asked an interviewer why I needed to give my ethnic origins. They said it was because the authority who were interviewing me had a policy of non-discriminination. If they didn't discrininate, I asked, why did they need to know my ethnic origin...

I am glad to say I didn't get the job:-)

As to 'non-bias'. I realised at a very early age how easy bias was and how people accepted it with no thought. It was during a rail strike in the 1960's and the newsreader on the BBC commented that the rail network had been brought to a standstill by union members wanting a payrise. I wondered at the time why they didn't report that the standstill had been caused by management refusing to pay a decent wage! I know now of course that neither statement was correct. The rail network was at a standstill was the only unbiased interpretation anyone could make. And how boring would that look in the history books..?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:41 PM

Thanks, Dave.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 02:18 AM

"When the most 'generous' one can be on the grievience addressing within a minority community curve is concerned, is apathetic, Dave, you are starting a bit further up the downright biased end of that scale to find where our happy medium lies..."

=

"... if the best the average Brit can be is apathetic,..." (... about addressing the grieviences of the minority community "... and the worst is downright hostile, wherein lies the average, Dave?"

But are people going to admit that they are anti-Irish...?
Is that the kind of thing one will say of themselves.

If it's like the North, it'll manifest itself in the psyche first.
That's where the most damage is done...

T'will be an interesting thread you've created next-door, methinks ....

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,DtG - not signed on yet...
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:07 AM

Thanks, Tiocfaidh. I understand now. Rather than continue this tangenital (and possibly rather trivial) discussion on this important thread I have moved it elsewhere, as Tiocfaidh points out. I am sure you can spot it:-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 12:28 AM

Slight thread drift...

Last Saturday the Royal Black Institution marched through a Nationalist area of Castlederg, in my own home county, to much approval from the local residents.

This is who they are: The 'Black Men'

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:04 PM

ECCE: The splintering of the Unionist vote

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:13 PM

Wednesday. UDA announce weapons decommissioning complete.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8442683.stm
Friday. Police officer (catholic) terribly injured by Republican car bomb.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8447829.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 04:10 AM

All this, and a sex and corruption scandal in Unionist politics.
But nobody has an opinion to express.
Times have changed indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:11 AM

They have indeed, Keith. Wonder what the bhoyos will do with their time now?

DeG