BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?

Subject: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 09:14 PM

Just been watching a film [movie] on TV, called 'Chato's Land', a western with Charles Bronson playing the part of an indian brave.

He still had his moustache & it struck me as being somewhat incongruous.

Does anyone know if native americans have beards/moustaches?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 10:02 PM

Mr Happy, I guess it depends on how you define 'Native American".

The definition for Native American is rather fluid. What makes a person Native American depends on the specific group {nation} of Native Americans.

I once went to a conference on the American Indian Adoption Act and was surprised to see a number of African Americans who identified themselves culturally as Native Americans. And {but?} they had the different gradations of brown skin color and hair textures that many African Americans have. During a public question and answer period, I asked these people whether they considered themselves to be "Black". Most of them said that they were Black {meaning 'African American'} AND Native American.

In contrast, about 15 years ago I went to an adoption conference in Toronto, and was priviledged to be one of two African American representatives to be invited to attend and participate in the caucas of the Canadian Indian {Native American??; First Nation??} attendees at that conference. It seemed to me that the overwhelming majority of participants at that caucas looked "White' {meaning they had 'fair' skin color; red hair; blue eyes; blond hair, brown eyes etc}.

Maybe we have an erroneous view of what Indians are supposed to look like. And there is always the racial mixture factor. I suppose that, like most racial and ethnic groups in the world, Native Americans {First Nation} people are a mixed race people. That being the case, {finally getting to your respectfully asked question},
I would imagine that some Native American men {and Native American women too!} could grow a moustache and a beard if they didn't want to shave.

As to whether most pure blooded unmixed Native Americans can {could}do so, I don't have a clue.

PS: I went to another workshop in Pittsburgh in which a brown skinned African American woman with an afro {hair worn in a short, unprocessed hair style} spoke about her Native American ancestry and heritage and quoted from a book that I later purchased. I found the book [William Loren Katz, "Black Indians: A Hidden Heritage" {Atheneum; 1986}] to be well researched and very interesting reading. Given the subject matter, I also appreciated seeing the photographs included in the book.

And that's how another stereotype bit the dust for me.   



Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 10:07 PM

Not substantial ones. Facial hair on Native Americans is usually rather sparce. Some tribes pulled out what facial hair they did have. I agree, Mr Happy. Incongrous!
Funny parallel: Here when they made the latest Ned Kelly film, the cast were told they were to be clean shaven. More modern look and all that. Someone talked them out of the idea but the beards were all rather thin. Not at all like Ned's actual beard. Full bushy beards were all the go here in the 19th Century. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 10:23 PM

Joybell, is "here" in your post a referent for Australia?

And who is Ned Kelly?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 10:28 PM

Azizi, it really depends on how the makers of this film define the terms doesn't it?
However, I just looked this movie up and it seems Bronson was playing "a half breed" words from "The United Artists Story". There's a picture of Bronson. His moustache is quite thin. So we haven't got anywhere really. His facial hair is OK probably - in the context of this film. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 10:32 PM

My husband is Native American and he has a full beard and moustache.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 10:37 PM

Azizi, Yes Australia and Ned Kelly was our most well known Bushranger. Put his name into Google and you'll get lots about him. Better to take the word "film" out though. The latest one is especially innacurate. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 12:11 AM

Joybell,

I appreciate your response to my question, and will not only look up "Ned Kelly" but will also Google what a "Bushranger" is/does though I have some probably stereotypical and thus erroneous ideas about that.

I know that this was tangential to the question that Mr. Happy had asked, but your use of the name "Ned Kelly" sparked my curiosity.

And my mother always told me that

"Curiosity killed a cat. Satisfaction brought him back".


:>]



Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 01:00 AM

The short answer: American Indians who are fullblood aren't often able to grow enough facial hair to have a good mustache or beard.

My ex is Puerto Rican, a mix of Indian (Taino) and Spanish. He had a beard and mustache for years, but they were on the thin side. In general American Indian men didn't (historically) wear beards in images recorded by early non-Indians. As to whether they could grow them, that's another matter. My ex told me that Indian men usually couldn't grow beards, hence the thin nature of what he could grow as a mixedblood.

Mixedblood and blood quantum are highly charged issues in the Pan Indian community. Indians and African Americans commingled just as Indians and Euroamericans commingled. The blended genes certainly contributed to a variety of physical possibilities, like growing beards or baldness. (It maybe a tradeoff: no beards but hair on top--you don't hear much about baldness in American Indians. Here is a link (not one I know anything about, but it doesn't look completely crackpot) The dominant features that are commonly recognizable tend to mean that the darker features showed up when one parent was white and the other Indian, so a child was recognizable as Indian, but were less likely to show up when one parent was African American and the other Indian. I have spoken to African American students at my university who are interested in tracing their family records because they know of an Indian heritage in the family. It was as if the Indian heritage vanished or was buried, especially in the days when "one drop of Negro blood" (particularly in the South) meant that you were considered ALL African American. Ah, racism and absurd race laws.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 01:07 AM

By the way: I wouldn't base much of anything you think you know about American Indians on what you see in films. Too often you had Polish/Lithuanian (or other dark Euro) actors like Bronson playing Indians. And when they were extras in movies, the Indians often didn't depict the tribes they were actually from. There are some funny stories about the fast ones that Indian extras pulled when working for John Ford and others over the years of the heyday of the Western.

There's strong evidence the Iron Eyes Cody was an old Italian man. In Hollywood he was famous for wearing that Indian wig.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 01:20 AM

I have books - somewhere - with old pictures of northwest coast indians who have heavy mustaches. The "Totem Pole" Indians: Kwakiutl and the like. I'll see if I can fine pix & dates.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 01:30 AM

That would be interesting. Maybe most of the photographers simply selected bare Indian faces rather than the possibility that no Indians had facial hair, eh? (Maybe the paint or tatoos didn't show up as well on Indians with beards? Or beards made them look too European, not Indian enough?)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 03:22 AM

Funnily enough, my grandfather (Polish/Pomeranian Jew) when growing up in 1930-40s America, was teased a lot for looking Indian.
I don't really think photographers deliberately selected clean faces, quite a few of them were interested in race and that, plus there was a theory kciking around that they were Jewish or of other European ancestry. I just think most Indians have little facial hair.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 05:25 AM

Photos in the book ' Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee ' show many native Americans wearing a moustache.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:35 AM

Funny, I only see two, maybe three. Ouray, Quinkent and Ely Parker.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 09:29 AM

I'll get me glasses.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 10:30 AM

I know several full blook Lakota Souix who have quite nice moustaches.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 11:06 AM

My general impresion is that most Native Amrican groups in the 1700's and 1800's thought of themselves culturally rather than racially. That is, if you were half or one quarter Cherokee, but lived as a Cherokee, then you were Cherokee. Given that, modern Native Americans would show a mix of characteristics. As some one else noted, Hollywood is not a good source of historical information.

One might also note that the original inhabitants of North America (and South) are reliably believed to have originated in Asia, where facial hair is sparse.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 01:09 PM

Most Native American men COULD grow facial hair, but they used to shave all their body hair (mainly warriors) before going into battle, and for hygiene reasons.
However, most mixed-bloods have no problem growing it...

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 02:25 PM

Native men do grow facial hair. Look at historical pictures of the Nootkas, a whaling tribe on the west coast. They all had moustaches.

chris nightbird childs - Where did you get that information? What did they shave with? Tribal fashions varied from place to place but I never heard of that before.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 05:37 PM

As far as I know, The People (whichever of them...) belong to the same racial grouping as the Inuit & Siberians. The racial tendency is to be sparse on facial hair. Not hairless, but sparse. Exposed hair in cold climes is prone to collect ice. Frostbite on the face is not a trait likely to be passed down the generations! If the original stock that are supposed to have crossed from Siberia & migrated further had evolved to have less facial hair, that would remain the case unless there were a reason to evolve more facial hair.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:19 PM

Ah, but DID they all come across Beringia? Or was there a more diffuse settlement of the NA continent? The Smithsonian Institution has a discussion here. Also, you must recognize the Dene and the Navaho....

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:29 PM

Clovis people! Practical jokes and that sort of thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:41 PM

Rapaire - You are absolutely right. Some may have come across a land bridge but not all. It is more likely that the Chinook people are from Polynesia or thereabouts. In addition to defying the stereotypes, they wore skirts of shredded cedar bark, tatooed their bodies, pierced their noses and practiced head flattening. They built very efficient little boats with sails. It would make sense that they arrived via the Pacific. More sense than the land bridge theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 07:33 PM

There are also some who think that there might have been Europe/Scandinavia -> North America migration. During Ice Ages, when more water would have been bound up in ice, it would have been quite possible to sail island-to-island (via the Faeroes, for instance) to North America as easily as from Polynesia.

The presence of coca alkaloid in Egyptian mummies opens up interesting speculation as well....

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Kaleea
Date: 06 Jun 05 - 01:21 AM

I have relatives in Turkey who told me that a family member (Turk) is an Anthropologist & said that some of the "aboriginal peoples" of America share some DNA of Turks. They said that the Turks went East & some of them didn't stop. I haven't looked around for data on this, but would be quite interested to know. I had heard this going around in the Native American grapevine for a few years. Anybody heard this before?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jun 05 - 10:21 AM

Speaking purely from experience and not scientifically:

Native Americans that I have seen depicted by artists on explorations to the Alaska regions are depicted universally as beardless, but often with thin moustaches, and that has been my observation as well. Native Americans to me appear to be asian in facial aspect, to the extent that an American of Korean extraction, with whom I worked, was often assumed to be a Native Alaskan by those who only looked at people superficially.

In Alaska we have many tribal peoples, and to save giving offense where none is intended, we use the term 'Native' rather than take the chance of confusing Eskimos with Aleuts or Indians.

My father worked with code-talkers in the Pacific war, and their pet fear was that they would be fired upon by nervous Americans who'd confuse them with Japanese. I believe the code talkers were mostly Navaho. American Indians do not all look alike, and they originally had scores if not hundreds of languages. I do not know how far genetic and linguistic research has gone, but there are people doing it.

Native Americans have almost never been depicted realistically in the movies. But that's a whole other subject. The early European explorers commented on their hairlessness and their incredible powers of perception. Sometimes they were kidnapped or convinced to come back to Europe where they could be 'on display'. In most cases they contracted diseases for which nature had left them unprepared and perished.

There is a wonderful bit of writing which I have no verification for wherein a council of tribes refuses an offer, from an American Colonial government, to give a select number of their young men a Western education, because in the past they have found the products of such courses good for nothing, but if the colonists will give them some of their youngsters, the Indians will teach them how to survive and "make men of them."

The story of American Indians and blacks is quite interesting. In the case of the first successful trip to the North Pole, the American exploration party had a black member, and both the white leader and his black friend left Eskimo descendants in Greenland (See: North Pole Secret). The same may have happened on the Lewis And Clark expedition.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jun 05 - 12:22 PM

Alice Walker, of The Color Purple and such, has written about the Cherokee part of her family.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Americans:Moustaches?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 05 - 02:19 PM

Years ago there was a native made film called "Do Indians Shave?"

Apparently, it is still a relevant film.