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BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
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Subject: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Susu's Hubby Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:43 PM I read today where the H of R passed an amendment to the constitution to protect the US flag from public desecration. It still needs to be passed by the senate (and it has a better chance of passing this time than any other time before) in order for it to go to the states for ratification. 38 states need to vote in favor of in order for it to become an amendment. Where do you personally stand on the issue? As far as I'm concerned: Even though I love this country as much as I do, I cannot bring myself to support this amendment. I certainly understand both sides of the situation but as an American, my pride (the good kind) lies within and not within a fabric symbol that flies at the top of a long metal pole. I differ with many of my family and friends on this subject and am often the center of many debates among my brothers and me. (Sort of like here on the Cat.) I fly the flag at my home. I have had flag stickers on my vehicles. I love the flag of this country. I love for what it stands for and love the fact that at just the sight of it it brings many different emotions to the forefront. I was moved to tears when other countries presented the colors of the USA and played the National Anthem after 9/11. The pride of being American is a large part of my life. All of the reasons listed above are why I cannot support this amendment. I believe in the right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression. Even those who I do not agree with have a right and a duty to speak up for what they do not agree with. If they feel that burning the flag is what they need to do in order to express how they feel, then by all means, burn two of them if it makes them feel better and to help to get their message across. I apologize in advance to anybody that may be offended but realize this about me.... You're never going to catch me burning the flag of the country that I love so much. It does hold a special place in my heart because many of my and Susu's family have defended that flag and some have even died for the many values that the same flag stands for. It has been a struggle for me, to say the least, to reconcile those beliefs with the beliefs of which I'm currently trying to communicate to each of you. But that is where I fall and stand firm. What about you? Hubby |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: gnu Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:48 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:51 PM A flag is at worst just a piece of fabric, and at best just a silly little symbol... What is more important is addressing the issues that lead people to WANT to BURN the flag in the first place... just saying flag burning is illegal is pointless and 'head-in-the-sand-ism' Too much Jingoisim... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Wesley S Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:55 PM Well SH - I'm a bit suprised. From my preconceived notions of where you stand politically I would have figured you to have a different opinion. But I agree with your views 100 percent. { Remember this day - it may never happen again }. I couldn't agree with you more. A well written post. I'm not a flag burner and I fly the flag often. But if we start pasing laws against it - who knows where it will end ? Maybe we'll have to have an "approved" translation of the bible next. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Peace Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:10 PM I don't see the point of flag burning. Never burned one in my life. Laws won't make flag burning go away. So why write a law that's meaningless? Makes no sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:17 PM The Flag that must be protected by force deserves no respect. Its like proposals to supress free speech in order to improve security, ie replace one good thing with two bad things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:26 PM Another bad idea from the Republican held congress. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:30 PM Flags don't get desecrated by being burnt. They get desecrated when they are used to propagate oppression and intolerance, and turned into a symbol of those things. For example the BNP try to do that all the time with the English Flag of Saint George and the Union Flag. I'm sure there are equivalent ways in which those kind of people over in America "desecrate" the Stars and Stripes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: harpgirl Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:31 PM Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. It's already overcrowded from your dirty little war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: PoppaGator Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:31 PM Good for you, SH. I have to admit, I was a bit surprised at your wholly reasonable and intellectually consistent stance on this issue. It's a position I share, one that should NOT have to do with whether one is "left" or "right" wing, but one which so many unthinking rightist "patriot" types cannot seem to understand. I have no interest in burning the flag, but I neither do I have a wish to prosecute or punish anyone who chooses to do so. Most of the instances of flag-desecration that I have witnessed turned out to the work of provocateurs, such as the undercover agents trying to stir up trouble at the Democratic Convention in Chicago in 1968. None of the "real" antiwar activists had any interest in burning flags, but the powers-that-were seemed to need an excuse to step in and start busting heads, and what better to portray the demonstrators as hateful and anti-American than to stage some highly visible flag-burnings? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: katlaughing Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:35 PM Well said, all. Wesley, I couldn't have said it better. I was a bit surprised, too.:-) If people can wear it on their ass as a bikini or shorts, burning it as a statement, presumably of much more serious import, seems much more meaningful and should be anyone's right. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:42 PM In the 60s you could get Rizla skins printed with the Star Spangled Banner. It was fun burning those. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Susu's Hubby Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:42 PM SRS, "Another bad idea from the Republican held congress." I hope that you realize that quite a few of the democrats had to vote for this as well. It passed by more than the 2/3 majority needed to continue. Quite a few democratic senators will need to vote for this also. It looks as if that might happen. harpgirl, "Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. It's already overcrowded from your dirty little war." Why are you always so bitter? From your picture, I have seen a woman who might be a good person to get to know. You have a friendly face. It's really a shame that you have to act like this in order to make yourself look good in the faces of your other "extremist" buddies that share these pages. But that's just my opinion. I may be wrong. Hubby |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:43 PM I think Larry Flint wore it best when he was in court |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:46 PM It's a shame that people find it surprising that someone who dresses politically on the right should demonstrate respect for the principles on which your country is supposed to be built on. Issues of principle like this should unite Americans left and right, regardless of how they differ on other things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Peace Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:58 PM The problem is not of burning or not burning the flag. It is now a difficulty of how does one NOT vote for a law like that. Imagine next election (not that I think there will be one): "This candidate voted against a law that would protect the American flag. What does THAT say about him/her and his/her view of America and all we hold dear?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:01 PM Hubby - You may not have heard it befoe but the flag decal comment from Harpgirl is a direct quote from a John Prine song. It was on his first LP. And it refers to the Viet Nam era - but I think some of the same issues apply. And you're right. A bad idea can cross over from one political party to another. The GOP doesn't own this one - but it does seem to be in the forefront. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:09 PM OK - Here's something that hacks me off. If Toby Keith HAS to run around with an American flag painted on his guitar - why does it have to be a Takamine ? Wasn't there ANY American guitar builder that was able to do it ? And I'm willing to bet he thinks we're sending too many American jobs overseas. I have this image in my head of some Japanese guitar builder asking - "OK - I've painted a red stripe and a white srripe. What comes next ? Red again ??" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,G-Spot Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:41 PM We have too gaddamned many stupid, useless laws already. What is the point in this one? "With Liberty and Justice for all"...this is what the flag supposedly represents. If the flag truly represented that, then there would be much more respect for it. Passing another damned law will certainly not increase respect. We have bullies in power and they want to show everyone how tough they are. Take away a little bit of Freedom of Expression today, a bit more tomorrow, some more next week, etc. Soon there will be none left to take away. "We are become like sheep to the slaughter." GS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:42 PM I believe it was Clinton Hammond, out of the depths of his wisdom, who stated as a fact: A flag is at worst just a piece of fabric, and at best just a silly little symbol... Two statements there. The "at worst" is of course correct. But "at best" it's an impressive BIG symbol, to many, many people. To Clinton it's "just a silly little symbol", I suppose. If, indeed, Clinton is really stating his own feelings and not just trolling. But neither of those makes it "at best just a silly little symbol." Symbols, for good or ill, are powerful things, both to the individuals who hold certain meanings attached to the symbols and to the public at large. Symbols move individuals; symbols move social groups; symbols move public policy. No "silly little" there, regardless whether you attach the same meaning to the symbol that others do. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: DougR Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:45 PM I would never burn the flag, but I don't believe a law should be passed making it a crime to burn it. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:46 PM Actually to use the term "desecrate" in relation to a national flag strikes me as pretty close to blasphemy. Flags are not sacred, nor are nations. You might feel they are worthy of respect, but never that they are things that should be treated as having religious status. And I'd have thought that that would be something which religious people ought to agree about, again regardless of politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: gnomad Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:54 PM On the east side of the pond we are more (but not totaly) relaxed about treatment of flags, including our own. So far be it from me to add oil to your fire, but I'm sure I have read that you statesiders have a law , possibly known as the flag code(?) which states that a flag which is no longer fit for use should be destroyed in a dignified way, by burning for choice. I realise this is slightly different from what you are discussing, but can anyone confirm or deny this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Ebbie Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:55 PM Color me surprised too. :) Good for you, SH. When a symbol of something is destroyed, the symbolee (!) itself cannot be harmed. But I can see why government would like to make it illegal. Perception of harm comes from those who are in fear. With good reason. If a German citizen during the WWII era had publicly burnt the swastika, I'm sure there would have been repercussions from those in power and from loyal adherents of the regime. Their fear would be that any witnesses to the flag burning would understand the intended message, and the virus of discontent might spread. Interesting that the sanctioned way of honorably disposing of Old Glory is by fire. All in context. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,G-Spot Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:57 PM gnomad, it is not a law. It is a code of conduct concerning the flag. It should be folded a certain way, raised and lowered each day in a certain manner. It should never touch the ground and should be destroyed by fire when becoming too worn. GS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,G-Spot Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:00 PM If they pass the damnably dumb law, then they should also crack down on the auto- dealers & other commercial organizations who leave the flag out day & night in all types of weather. This is as much as "desecration" as the burning. GS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Peace Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:02 PM More than ypou might want to know. http://www.imagesoft.net/flags/usaflag.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: gnomad Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:02 PM Ah, thanks for that, G-S, we learn a little bit each day. Glad you are still with us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:02 PM SH, I used to feel as you do now - but I worked with a man who described the hate, horror and fear in a burning cross. Then I witnessed the hate involved in burning someone in efigy. Flaunting the swastika in Skokie is wrong. I'm personally repulsed by flag burning, wearing it on clothing, letting it touch the ground, etc. But I would still not vote to prohibit any of this. I just wish there was more respect for other people's symbols. (Sounds like I agree with you - but on a continuum, I'm a little farther toward protection, just not willing to vote on it.) (I see an analogy to the "trainwreck thread" at Mudcat. Stupid/hateful/vengeful words on the Internet would be meaningless if they were ignored by all...but they aren't...and never will be.) Just yesterday the flag on my house became untied in one place, and I was sick until I fixed it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:13 PM Brucie's link is good. The flag can fly at night if there is a light on it. (don't know about those car dealerships with the huge ones.) Burning in a ceremony is used to dispose of old flags so they don't end up in a garbage dump. I made a mistake one time about displaying the flag in a ceremony. If it is on the level of the audience, it is on the audience's right. If it is on the level of the dais, it is on the speaker's right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Peace Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:20 PM I generally respect flags because they represent the 'combined aspirations' of a people or nation. Some I have no respect for at all. BUT, I wouldn't impune the dignity of a whole people by spitting on it or burning it. Humans are better than that; at least, we should try to be. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: kendall Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:30 PM It really pisses me off to see these idiots with little flags stuck to their cars being flapped to shreds and often ending up on the road or in a ditch. I see them everywhere, even at National Guard posts flying all night and in the most foul weather. I served under that banner, but the first amendment is more sacred to me than a piece of cloth. Stupidity is not and never should be a felony. Leave the constitution alone, and stop pandering to the ignorant masses. These twits are looking for votes, and the way Bush is acting, they are going to need them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,G-Spot Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:10 PM Yes, Mr. kendall, an they are probably going to get them. Alas. GS (PS...Thank you, gnomad. You are quite high on my list!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:25 PM Just proves that these politicians are slimy opportunists that don't take their oath to uphold the Constitution seriously. So what else is new? This is like the bazzillionth time they've introduced this legislation. Problem is, the asshole Republican and Democrat American voters have now put enough greedy crooks into power that idiotic measures like this can sail through Congress and be signed into law. This will teach those gays and welfare sluts who keep winning the culture wars, won't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: frogprince Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:32 PM I have never been present when a flag was burned as an act of protest, and I would rather not be; like Uncle Dave, I consider it much more than a "silly little symbol". But the only reason a sane, intelligent person would burn a flag publicly is to express a strongly held feeling by knowingly disturbing the onlookers deeply; he would know that he is risking bringing major hostility on himself to m no harm is done to anyone. This is very close to the heart of freedom of expression. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Rapparee Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:34 PM I think that flag burning should be the right of anyone who wants to do it, as long as they do it in designated places and are willing to take the consequences. I suggest in front of Armed Forces Recruiting Stations, National Guard and Reserve Armories, Police Stations, American Legion posts, Marine Corps League buildings, Fire Departments, and similar places. Those who burn flags out of doors should be required to obtain an outdoor burning permit, too, and if they don't comply they should be ticketed just as the guy burning his pile of leaves without a permit would be ticketed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Peace Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:35 PM Well said, frogprince. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: frogprince Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:41 PM Now that was different; my post submitted itself while I was still composing it, with me nowhere near the submit button. That last should be, He would know that he is risking bringing major hostility on himself to make his point. This is very close to the heart of freedom of expression. I truly hope that the necessary majority won't let themselves be blackmailed into passing this travesty; but I would be afraid to bet against it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:41 PM I sure do like your ideas, Rapaire! Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:05 PM (i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. Boy, that part of the Federal Flag Code must not get read very often, huh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Peace Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:08 PM Gets used for advert purposes by the military. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:17 PM You get the government you pay for with your votes and your political campaign contributions. Nothing more needs be said, IMO. These are the sorts of laws the majority of American voters, both Democrats and Republicans, either want or are willing to put up with, based upon their voting choices and their political contributions. Follow the money, and it leads down this hell hole. This is where "centrist compromise" by appeasement Democrats gets you with a reactionary, right wing, evangelical militarist take over of the US government. Don't like it? Maybe you should have thought of that 30 years ago, when you all caved to the Reagan right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:18 PM Not trolling at all... I just don't see what the big deal is over a scrap of fabric |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:06 AM None of this is about the flag or free speech. It's about political opportunism, jingoism, and fake patriotism being used by reactionaries to build up their political base for the coming election cycle. Same dynamic is at work, being orchestrated by both Democrats and Republicans, regarding the manufactured controversy of using certain words to describe the US interment camp in Cuba, and the torture of political prisoners by US armed forces. Both Democrats and Republicans will jump on the jingoist bandwagon to condemn anyone who strays from the official pro-war and pro-torture government propaganda line espoused by the US military and Bush administration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Amos Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:24 AM Please note the date, as it may be a unique historical occasion. I agree fully with what SH and DougR have said, and I am delighted to see they draw the line and trying to enforce symbolism by constraining freedom. While it is not a freedom I have ever cared to exercise, I'm damned if someone should be allowed to withdraw it on the basis of superstition. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Kaleea Date: 23 Jun 05 - 03:03 AM As someone who has spent many hours of my life sewing, I don't consider burning our flag a wonderful idea & would not do that myself. How about burning the leaders in effigy as was done in "olden days." (a 'dummy' made like a scarecrow with the name of the person the crowd is mad at is hung with a noose from a tree & taken down & burned) Instead of passing all these laws, why don't these people take responsibility for teaching our nation's children-- their children, grandchildren, neices, nephews, etc.--proper respect for the fabric symbol of our nation? Why, indeed? I often wonder, with both houses representing our citizens having had a republican majority for the past 10 years, who is to blame for our nation's troubles? If our nation is in such bad shape, who could be at fault? Our leaders? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,Burns Date: 23 Jun 05 - 07:09 AM --why don't these people take responsibility for teaching our nation's children-- their children, grandchildren, neices, nephews, etc.--proper respect for the fabric symbol of our nation? The nation that it symbolises would have to be worthy of respect first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,Whistle Stop Date: 23 Jun 05 - 08:33 AM I agree with the initial post by SH, and it sounds like most others on this forum do, too. As a couple of other people have mentioned, this proposed legislation really isn't about burning the flag. It's about embarrassing the legislators who vote against it, making them seem unpatriotic, and putting them on the defensive in the next election. The whole point is to be able to say "my opponent voted against a law to protect the flag of our country, that so many have fought and died for, etc." Those kinds of statements get a lot of traction in elections these days, unfortunately. They're really just a diversionary tactic that allows politicians to avoid the real issues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Donuel Date: 23 Jun 05 - 08:42 AM Desecration laws will happily clear the way for the coming blasphemy laws which in turn will clear the way for wide sweeping sedition laws until finally all those distracting and annoying dissenting voices will be silenced. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Donuel Date: 23 Jun 05 - 09:07 AM Creating a law to protect sacred symbolism is in direct opposition to the intentions of the founders of the Constitution. Once you can imprison people for disrespecting one symbolic "sacred" thing, you can pass more laws for other "sacred" things. By democratic magority vote of course. This is of course unconstitutional under 2 articles in the US Constitution. Maybe if the few remaing liberal activist Supream Court judges are replaced then finally the Constituion can finally be interpreted by the court of the religious magority as intended by the Republican party for the last 100-150 years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Stu Date: 23 Jun 05 - 09:11 AM Madness. The US is having it's democracy eroded piecemeal from under it's very nose. Get a grip chaps and chapesses! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Amos Date: 23 Jun 05 - 09:38 AM People do not die for a damn flag. That's ridiculous. It is mere short hand to say one died for a flag. Taking it literally is technically an insanity... As America grows dumber and dumber, she confuses her maps and symbols more and more with the territory she can no longer seem to hold, and can no longer confront, and retreats into mouthing platitudes and manipulating emblems and tokens instead of seeing clearly. This is the tragedy of our time. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Amos Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:29 PM Some background on the issue (from Newsday): 1984: Gregory Johnson arrested in Dallas for burning the U.S. flag in a protest against nuclear war at the Republican National Convention. Johnson was convicted and sentenced to a year in jail and fined $2,000 for violating a Texas law against "desecration of a venerated object." Johnson case is appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. June 1989: The Supreme Court, using Johnson's case as a model, rules that flag desecration is protected speech under the Constitution's First Amendment. October 1989: Congress passes the Flag Protection Act of 1989, making it a crime to deface, burn or trample the U.S. flag. On the day the law takes effect, a group of Vietnam veterans in Seattle burn 1,000 American flags in a "festival of defiance". Two days later, four people, including Gregory Johnson, burn flags on the steps of the Capitol in Washington. Three are arrested for violating the flag protection act. June 1990: Supreme Court rules Flag Protection Act of 1989 unconstitutional. Within hours of the decision, Sen. Bob Dole introduces a proposal to amend the Constitution in order to ban desecration of the flag. Both houses of Congress defeat the proposed amendment later in the month. June 1995: Another proposed amendment outlawing flag desecration passes the House. December 1995: Senate rejects flag amendment. June 1997: House of Representatives again votes in favor of an amendment prohibiting desecration of the flag. October 1998: Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott fails to get unanimous agreement required to bring amendment to the floor. April 30, 1999: Senate Judiciary Committee approves constitutional amendment to ban flag burning. June 24, 1999: House votes in favor of Constitutional amendment outlawing flag desecration. March 28, 2000:Senate defeats proposed amendment passed earlier by the House It is clear that we have come very close on several occasions to institutionalizing our precious symbols instead of our venerated policies, such as due regard for privacy and individual conscience. This demonstrates that undiscriminating "mass think" is a disease to which even our highly esteemed representatives in Congress are vulnerable. Shocking, innit?? I am grateful we haven't crossed that line in the above near-misses, but the extreme rigidity of the current Administration when gathering and managing allegiances in the press and the Congress worries me, frankly. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Donuel Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:38 PM This thread inspired America 2010 Chapter 1 with a new ending. Republican life 2010 Waking up today to glorious missionary procreational exercise this morning was wonderful but my wife and I still have the nagging guilt of practicing the rhythm method in secret. Time to make breakfast for our 4 children. Our oldest Adam is adopted and just turned 5 years old. He loves to help out in the kitchen. We are so happy to have been blessed with him although it was touch and go when we first went before the adoption court. Having to prove my wife and I were not homosexual and never plan to become homosexual was far tougher and grueling than we could have imagined. Mmm the smell of bacon wafts through the house and reminds me how we had to drive to a distant Walmart when the one nearby had a security clerk that was vegetarian and would not validate the bacon we put through the RFID scanner. Alls well that ends well as we said grace over our breakfast. Marty our 4 year old likes to help me raise the flag. It is almost an hour past sunrise so we will have to hurry lest we be in non compliance. Some of our neighbors who were found guilty of non compliance were spooked by threats of desecration and no longer fly the flag. Its still a free country, you don't have to fly the flag if you file a waiver. We keep a watchful eye on them just the same. You can never be too careful. The flag unfurls with a snap to Marty's cries of delight. I am so proud. My wife and I were the ones to inform the authorities that Bed and Bath were selling American flag bath towels. After several clerks were fired we sensed a new respect at church meetings. My wife Anne gets Marty and Adam ready for faith based pre-school while I wave goodbye and climb into our red white and blue SUV. It is our third one and the best so far. Mostly because this one has never rolled over yet. I quickly left the traffic behind me as I cruised in the Christian Occupancy Vehicle lane. In the office parking lot the security line was moving swiftly. The biometric retinal scan made my vision darker for several minutes but it was alot faster than the old method. After the all negro guards swabbed my steering wheel for explosive traces and my new SUV searched in back and underneath I was on my way in no time. Passing beneath the billboard of our leader always gave me a renewed sense of purpose as I entered my work facility and cued up in the building security line. The company sign was removed years ago. We smilingly whisper that we now work at No Such Agency. At my cubical I booted up my computer and was underway in just under 45 minutes as the 8th firewall was confirmed. My job is to detect any left leanings or vile liberal bias on the world wide web. When I first heard of mudcat forums I thought it might be some sort of environmentalist whacko save the snail darter kind of site but I soon learned it was far worse. There were a few members I was able to save however one of the most conservative members fell through the cracks and was arrested under the new blasphemy laws when a certain Martin Gibson had used the lords name in vain some years in the past. I am up for a promotion to enforce the NPB laws and edit programming. My suggestion to change the name of All Things Considered to The Main Thing Considered might have put me over the top. All I can do is hope for the best since the competition is steep especially since Michael Donnely was responsible for the conviction of the liberal Dianne Reams who subsequently died in re-education classes after only 4 days. At lunch I signed the pledge of support for Tucker Calrson's bid for the Senate. I am not complaining but all these pledges for our official candidates does add up. In the larger scheme of things it was certainly worth it to have a hard nosed tough minded and Christian President Arnold in office. On the way home the fuel gauge was near empty so I turned into the gas station authority. Lambs of Mercy sakes, Fudge!. I have to remember that without gas my SUV is a wee bit top heavy. Thank God Congress passed the roll over repair bill and tax credit for my select vehicle, the Nissan Noah's Ark. At home all is well with the smell of beef in the air. At grace we asked the lord for wisdom balance and objectivity with a sensible thoughtful and consistent search for facts to slay the non believers and went straight to bed after the dishes. Oh my God I forgot to take the flag down! Oh shit I took the lords name in vain! Oh Jesus help me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Don Firth Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:58 PM For your thoughtful consideration—from a commentary by Bill Moyers on NOW with Bill Moyers a couple of years ago. For those who dismiss Moyers as nothing but a "flaming liberal," I would invite them to read the following with an open mind and seriously consider what he says here: I wore my flag [lapel pin] tonight. First time. Until now I haven't thought it necessary to display a little metallic icon of patriotism for everyone to see. It was enough to vote, pay my taxes, perform my civic duties, speak my mind, and do my best to raise our kids to be good Americans.Respectfully submitted, Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Donuel Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:12 PM This is the very reason I fly a flag more prominently than my Republican neighbors. Their favorite comment is "do not go there". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Susu's Hubby Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:14 PM I think that what we need to think about is what would the amendment actually do if it passes? Just forget about the fact of walking all over freedom of speech and expression for a second and bear with me. Would we actually be outlawing the "destroying" or outlawing the "thoughts" behind the destroying? I'm inclined to believe that even though the intent would be to outlaw the act of destroying, the end result would be punishing people for the "thoughts" that led to the act of destroying. It would set the stage, possibly, to give a future judge the self-felt reason to, again possibly, legislate from the bench and put it off to something that could be stretched into actually being covered by the flag burning amendment. Whether or not the judge leans to the right or to the left is of no matter. It's dangerous on both sides of the fence. Hubby |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,G-Spot Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:19 PM Burn my bra, burn the flag...both are expressions of my views on things. Possibly, I will eventually be denied the right to do either. It burns my ass. GS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:32 PM Well, according to the latest Supremes decision, just announced, you can also kiss your private property rights goodbye too. Seems your home can be condemned for a new Wal Mart, and there ain't nothin' your middle class, home owning ass can do about it. Keep voting Republican and appeasement Democrat, folks... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Donuel Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:46 PM Additional Tax revenue promised to a city council by a private investment corporation or big box store was found to be held superior to private property owners who may not be able to contribute as much tax money to the goverment. What do you expect from a Supream Court that elected George W Bush Jr. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: beadie Date: 23 Jun 05 - 03:37 PM The proposed amendment would be a rank attack on the very freedom that the flag is meant to symbolize. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Kim C Date: 23 Jun 05 - 04:43 PM "I have no interest in burning the flag, but I neither do I have a wish to prosecute or punish anyone who chooses to do so." Ditto. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Donuel Date: 23 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM What do you get when when you burn a flag? "Burn more witches!!!!!!!!" No you get ashes? Yes thats right and what are ashes made of? "MORE WITCHES!" No carbon? Yes, and what does carbon do? ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jun 05 - 05:40 PM They pass this constitutional amendment, and my first response will be to burn a flag. For sure. I don't give a shit about the stupid flag, though. Never have, never will. And I also don't feel the need to appease people who claim the flag is sacred to them. I really, truly, don't give a damn if people burn the flag or wipe their ass with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: jpk Date: 23 Jun 05 - 05:53 PM have not seen the bill,but outlaw burning?then how do you dispose of a flag that is no longer servicable,throw it in the garbage?[god forbid]just another issue blown out of sorts,try the personel pro issue just screwed over by the suprems.now the govt can say you own it,we take,pay what we wish if at all,and give it to someone else to make a buck so we get more tax money to piss away ,so we get reelected,to hell with the people and there rights.it's govt rights first,and above all else till they do it to me.not for the public good but the good old boys in the gov't good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jun 05 - 08:03 PM When you think the people running the government have brought shame on your country, rather than burn the flag it's surely better to reclaim it, by taking it on a demonstration against those people. For example... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: s6k Date: 24 Jun 05 - 08:13 AM BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:23 AM This proposed amendment was idiotic when Republicans first came up with it twenty years ago, and it's idiotic now. Pure PR, pure pandering to the know-nothing vote. Some headline-hungry protester burns a flag (and when was the last time you herad of that happening?), some patriots fly into a rage when they see it on TV - and to protect their tender feelings we need a Constitutional amendment, one right up there with the Bill of Rights and the abolition of slavery. (Oh, and no gay marriages.) Since there's so much concern about how "our enemies" gloat over public debate on policy in Iraq, I can see Al-Jazeera reporting that flag-burning and violent oppposition are now so rife in the US that Congress has had to stop it by amending the Constitution and "revoking free speech." There's a message to send to infant democracies! If we need an amendment right now, we need one to counter yesterday's Supreme Court's extension of eminent domain to private, for-profit entrepeneurs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:41 AM This business of trying to amend the Constitution to "correct" every perceived problem is stupid. The ERA, marriage-for-gays, flag burning, and probably a bunch of other stuff, are not appropriate subject for the Constitution to deal with--regardless of the desirability or undesirability of the actions sought to be dealt with. The purpose of a constitution--any national constitution, including ours--is to prescribe at a fairly high level the system by which the country shall be governed. The three matters referred to in the previous paragraph MAY be appropriate to be dealt with by legislation, either at the federal or state level, but they do not deal with the form and function of government itself. Those who would say, "I can't for one reason or another get my pet project settled to my satisfaction otherwise, so the document embodying the basic structure of government should be skewed to do what I want" are abusing the Constitution and the constitutional process. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Donuel Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:58 AM Guest - indeed we do. You see we bought a lot of US flag bath towels from bed and bath sicne they were only a dollar apiece. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jun 05 - 03:06 PM I suppose there's a sense in which, when someone burns the flag of their own country, as an act of protest, it's really a special case of the cuistom mentioned earlier, where a flag that has been damaged and degraded needs to be burnt - an act of respect for the flag rather than the reverse. But unwise, because it's liable to be misunderstood, since it lopoks too much like what happens when a foreign flag is burnt, as an expression of hostility. (Though, even there, sometimes perhaps it's not just hostility being expressed, but also a sense of having been betrayed by those who perhaps at one time were admired.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: beadie Date: 24 Jun 05 - 03:41 PM jpk: Actually, the amendment is to "protect the flag from desecration" which includes burning in a disresepctful manner. The theory is that the respectful burning of an unserviceable flag would not be prohibited. Of course, that leaves a lot to a jury trying someone accused of violating this law. They are put in the position of determining how to define "desecration" and how to apply that definition to the particular set of facts facing them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Donuel Date: 24 Jun 05 - 03:44 PM http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/Ammendment.jpg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: jpk Date: 24 Jun 05 - 04:03 PM the personel property issue ,or lose there of is what i was referring to.first the epa and esa to limit what you could do with your prop.and now it dosn't matter,they just take it when they please! anyone else starting to feel like it is time for another tea party,starting at the court level maybe,since they can't read plain english[as in constution]there pushing it,maybe to far already this time.govt for the govt by the govt of the govt,and all those with the money to buy the govt.how bout we take there houses away[the five judges]as hiatorical sites and kick them out on the street. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Troll Date: 24 Jun 05 - 04:13 PM I think that it is simply "feel good" legislation that would serve absolutely no good purpose and could do a great deal of harm. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: beadie Date: 24 Jun 05 - 04:21 PM I think, jpk, that you meant "government of the people, by the paid-off politicians, for the corporations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: jpk Date: 24 Jun 05 - 04:34 PM sorry beadie but no i didn't, the people part has gotten lost somewhere along the way[maybe between hell and high water]but the rest of your obsevation can fit in very well.thank you for the insight.btw have a nice day and god bless.[till they say we can't have those without there sufferage] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: jpk Date: 24 Jun 05 - 04:35 PM that means there say so er there ok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jun 05 - 05:26 PM Stupidity is not and never should be a felony. Considering the amount of suffering, pain and death it causes, I beg to differ. First degree criminal stupidity should be a capital crime & I for one would wholeheartedly support Congress in passing legislation that would criminalize stupidity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jun 05 - 05:58 PM Turkeys don't vote for Christmas... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: gnu Date: 24 Jun 05 - 06:03 PM "...criminalize stupidity."? Apparently, you'd be the only human left on the planet. Have fun by yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,petr Date: 24 Jun 05 - 08:42 PM when a flag is old and tattered and near death its recommended disposal is to destroy it by fire. the Republicans have included a new bill that will allow old flags to be kept on artificial life support indefinitely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: bobad Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:27 PM The science behind flag burning |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Donuel Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:38 PM http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/Ammendment.jpg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Amos Date: 24 Jun 05 - 10:46 PM Flag is a symbol, remember? By Reggie Rivers DenverPost.com http://denverpost.com/rivers/ci_2806816 The U.S. flag means a great deal to nearly all Americans. Military veterans have strong emotional ties to the flag as a symbol of their service; politicians believe that children will be better citizens if they pledge allegiance to the flag; most Americans would be outraged if a flag were desecrated in a public setting; and, after Sept. 11, the flag was a ubiquitous symbol of our national unity. However, the flag is not without its problems. It seems that too many Americans have forgotten that the U.S. flag is merely a symbol of our ideals - it is not the actual embodiment of them. Totalitarian leaders have been notorious for treating symbols as if they were real, arresting people who disrespected them. But in the United States, we enjoy broad political freedom partly because we separate symbolic activities from actual threats. If you want to cut out a picture of George W. Bush in The Denver Post and throw darts at it, the Secret Service will not arrest you. However, in the case of the flag, the distinction between the symbol and reality is murky. Many people would rush forward and punch anyone who was harming a flag. Many Americans would react as if the flag were a small child that needed to be rescued, and that's not normal. I believe many traditions are feeding our confusion about what the flag means and how much protection it needs. This week, we observed Flag Day, June 14. It's a little odd to recognize a symbol in this way, but Flag Day by itself would be fairly benign. What's more troublesome is that we have a national anthem that is entirely about the flag; we pledge our allegiance to the flag itself; and the proposed Flag Desecration Amendment could turn symbolic acts into crimes. Destroying your own flag would be like printing a big letter "S" and burning it. You wouldn't do harm to the alphabet by destroying this "S" nor would you harm any words that used the letter. You would do no harm to the English language, yet if you did the same thing with a flag, people would erupt in violence. If a man in North Korea were arrested for stomping on a newspaper photo of Kim Jong Il, we would condemn his arrest as a form of political repression. However, if a man in Denver were arrested for stomping on a U.S. flag that he purchased at Wal-Mart, many of us would not recognize it as political repression. Many would say it's OK to arrest a man for harming a flag, because we've forgotten that the flag is a symbol. The Christian Lord knew that humans were prone to this type of confusion, so his Second Commandment called for a moratorium on idol worship. We should heed this commandment. Instead of amending our Constitution - as House Joint Resolution 10 and Senate Joint Resolution 12 seek to do - we should change our pledge. It should read: "I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America ... ." That way, our kids will pledge their allegiance to our ideals, not a cloth symbol. We should also change our national anthem. The song's first verse - the only one we normally sing - is entirely about the flag. If you look at the lyrics and replace references to the flag with descriptions of Britney Spears, it is instantly clear that the song is about an object, not ideals. The American flag is a wonderful symbol, and it is important for us to maintain it in our society. However, it's clear that the flag has become more important than the ideals that it symbolizes, so in the name of democracy, we have to shift our focus. We can't allow our loyalty to the flag to trump our allegiance to the Constitution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Bobert Date: 24 Jun 05 - 11:11 PM Seems every time the Repubs think they need top recahrge their loyal NASCASR?Budweiser/CountryMusic crowwd they bring this tired horse outta the barn fir yet one more lap... It is so predictable of them.... Like who cares about flag burnin' other than rednecks... No one is really out there burnin' flags... It's a non-issue that Repubs use to rile up rednecks... Good on them... Is that what they are about??? Rilin' up a bunch of ignorant rednecks???? Sounds like Germany in the 30's when the Nazis carged up the brownshirts... And NO.... I'm not going to apologize fir that statement 'cause it's absolutely TRUE..... But good on you, Hub... Yer one thr correct side of this issue... Maybe different reasons but the correct side.... Notice I didn't say "right" side... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Jun 05 - 11:31 PM Uncle_DaveO 24 Jun 05 - 09:41 AM You have stated my opinion exactly. IMO, ANY constitutional amendment should be voted on, left in limbo for, say, 30 years, and then voted on again. Then it should be put aside until anyone who voted for it is dead, and voted on again. If it is still around, PERHAPS it should be implemented. Cautiously. I have stated this in other threads. 8-{E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Tam the man Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:15 AM It must be strange to pledge allegnce (spelling I know) to a bit of cloth, but mind you in certain countries they do strange things like voting for an nutcase to be president or Prime minster. If you feel angry or whatever that you must burn your country's flag then do so after it is a freedom of expression. but if you don't want to burn your country's flag then don't. After all it is just a peice of cloth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: jpk Date: 25 Jun 05 - 05:41 PM this is a none issue really.when something as minor as this over shadowes something such as the major theft of what little property rights we had left[handed to the crooks on a silver plater by the high court,with a fox gaurding the hen house grin]maybe,we need to pass an amendment to fly the flag upside down[means in distress,trouble,need help]till we throw all the corrupt pol's, lawyers,judges,bankers,[carpet baggers in modern disguise]out on there collective asses |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 25 Jun 05 - 09:27 PM In Lancashire, flags are pavements. Not easily burned. Everybody move to Lancashire - end of the controvery. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: gnu Date: 25 Jun 05 - 09:32 PM Hmmm. Yes and no. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Janice in NJ Date: 26 Jun 05 - 12:50 AM Pete Seeger suggests that an appropriate form of political protest would be washing the American flag. I can just see our Congress outlawing flag washing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Greg F. Date: 26 Jun 05 - 08:56 AM Pete's idea is an intriguing one, but a little late. At this point I don't think they'd EVER get the stains and filth out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Janice in NJ Date: 26 Jun 05 - 01:09 PM The proposed Constitutional amendment would give both Congress and the states the authority to prohibit "the physical desecration of the flag of the United States." That would create an enormous area for interpretation by the legislative bodies (Congress and state legislatures), by the enforcement authorities (US Department of Justice, state Attorneys-General, local District Attorneys, state and local police), and by the courts. Flag washing could very well be construed as illegal, at least in some jurisdictions. So could the wearing of flag patches, particularly if on the seat of the pants or on the crotch. Remember that Abbie Hoffman was once arrested in Washington, DC, for wearing an American flag T-shirt he bought in a department store. Abbie's lawyer, Bill Kunstler, argued that this was a case of selective prosecution because Roy Rogers and Dale Evans had recently worn similar T-shirts in Washington, but were not busted. The judge, however, ruled that the contexts of wearing the American flag T-shirts were different. In other words, Roy and Dale wore theirs as part of a patriotic concert, so it was OK. Abbie wore his while protesting a subpeona to appear before a Congressional committee investigating the antiwar movement, so the very same act was illegal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 26 Jun 05 - 01:27 PM Larry Flint wore the American Flag best |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: gnu Date: 26 Jun 05 - 04:03 PM Larry Flynt. Ya might not agree with his porn, but ya gotta agree with his priciples. Make a hell of a president. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Frankham Date: 26 Jun 05 - 04:14 PM I saw a great comment in the local letters to the editor paper. "The reason I don't want to burn the flag is because I live in a country where I could if I wanted to." Now that's real patriotism. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: gnu Date: 26 Jun 05 - 04:19 PM And, THAT is a real country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: heric Date: 26 Jun 05 - 07:04 PM Some guy somewhere on the internet made what seems to be a pretty good point. An almost-flag or flag-like-thing, such as a patch or a towel, is NOT a "Flag" as defined by law (somewhere). You could sell and make some bucks on faux-flags for burning, e.g., with one star out of place. It really has to be that way, I would think, or you could never remove your flag bumper sticker? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Col K Date: 26 Jun 05 - 07:06 PM Why not burn a flag, you may get some heat from it if you are cold. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: jpk Date: 27 Jun 05 - 05:46 PM to hell with the flag bit how about bulldozing my house for a new burger king[i dont want to sell but the supreme court said it was ok to kick me out]. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Donuel Date: 27 Jun 05 - 06:14 PM Bobert wut about them nascars that gotta little US flag painted onem? When they crash an burn do they go to jail too? Xcackly wut is desecration? USA flag bikinis on a skinny girl? or fat girl? US flag bath towels? underwear? stepping on a lapel pin? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Bobert Date: 27 Jun 05 - 09:50 PM Ahhhh, Donuel, you've raised an intersting and major Consititutional question which is best left up the 5-4 Supremes to ponder.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: frogprince Date: 27 Jun 05 - 09:54 PM Just a creepy thought; if (1)a given individual can be charged for wearing a shirt with a flag image, because the authorities surmise that his reasons for wearing it are objectionable, and (2) supposing that this amendment should pass, with it's undefined reference to "desecration", then... (3) What is to prevent prosecution of someone who carries an actual flag in a demonstration for what the authorities consider to be an inappropriate, "un-American" cause? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: John Hardly Date: 27 Jun 05 - 11:35 PM I like the idea of flag burning being legal. As an image it is as damaging to a cause as it is satisfying to the one burning a flag. It draws/illustrates really good, strong lines in the public debate and I like that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,Wolfgang Date: 30 Jun 05 - 11:17 AM How about burning a bible or a Koran? Same arguments or different stance? Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,JH Date: 30 Jun 05 - 11:52 AM That question at least causes one to pause and think: Can one, with logical consistancey, be FOR the right to burn flags and Bibles and Korans and yet also be FOR hate crimes laws? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 30 Jun 05 - 01:21 PM Guest JH - Yes I can see a logical consistancy between the two. If the difference is between causing harm to an object { a flag or a book } vs causing harm to a person { one of "them" }. One is free speech - the other is violence to a human being. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,JH Date: 30 Jun 05 - 01:42 PM I guess I was thinking more of the prosecutions of things like graffiti as hate crimes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,JH Date: 30 Jun 05 - 01:44 PM ...which I guess I can answer my own question. Graffiti involves destruction of property. A crime. So you can burn your own flag, but not mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jun 05 - 02:06 PM The analogy between flags and holy books is a bit strained. Flags are not sacred, and nor are nations, and you have to watch out for people with who think they are. But there is an analogy, in that anyone burning a flag or a holy book as a symbolic gesture should be aware that there are people out there who might feel quite justified in killing them for doing that. Not a good idea. And not a good symbol either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,JH Date: 30 Jun 05 - 02:14 PM Yeah, MofH, I guess that's part of what I meant earlier when I said that I am absolutely for flag burning remaining legal. As a symbol it is SO bad that those associated with the burning end up looking as manic as book-burners. In the end I believe they do their cause more harm than good. It's WAY too easy -- even for fairly literate, well-reasoned folks -- to conclude anti-Americanism with flag burning. Once that association is visually burned into the public consciousness (by flag burning) it is MIGHTY hard to try to turn back around and try to explain that you really have the country's best interests at heart -- you're really a patriot. It just won't wash. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,jpk Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:46 PM acording to the more liberated of our country,burning the bible is ok but burning the koran might hurt a poor muslim.hell don't bother with wasting time on a non issue |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jun 05 - 06:23 PM As IO understand it, the status of the Koran for Muslims is much more akin to the status of the Torah Scrolls for Orthodox Jews, rather than it is to the way Christians traditionally have regarded the Bible. There are some significant differences between the sister religions on things like that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Jul 05 - 10:22 AM Slight digression- What about burning the cross? Is it more or less of a symbol than the flag? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Charley Noble Date: 03 Jul 05 - 11:05 AM Happy Fourth of July to you, Kendall! I think we still have enough scrap lumber in the workshop for our afternoon BBQ and lots of newspaper. So there's no real need to even consider lighting up a flag. I remember how once, back in the Pleistocene, in rural Michigan a good friend was reported to the authorities for flying a suspicious flag on his front lawn. It was the UN flag. Who knows what subversive cause they thought it represented. The sheriff's department was quite polite as they interviewed my old friend. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: dianavan Date: 03 Jul 05 - 03:49 PM I've never burned a flag but it does make a pretty strong statement. Seems to me the 4th of July would be a good time to do it. Of course it would only work if half the country did it to protest the loss of freedom under the present administration. Maybe we could send a shipment of U.S. flags to Iraq. I wonder how long it would take the Iraqis to burn each and every one of them? I guess you would say, at present, I advocate the burning of the flag but would never do it myself. Hats off to those who have the courage to make the statement. Yes, it is a valid form of political expression, especially when voting irregularities are so blatant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Don Firth Date: 03 Jul 05 - 05:03 PM It strikes me that burning the flag as a means of protest is sort of an empty gesture. It makes a lot of people mad, often to the point where they don't hear what you're really protesting about, and miss the point entirely. Also, it sometimes alienates people who otherwise woulde have agreed with you. If you have something to say, say it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: dianavan Date: 03 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM Flag burning is for those who feel that they have no say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: John Hardly Date: 03 Jul 05 - 05:56 PM Man, if you could get all the liberals in the US to burn US flags all on the same day I would even find a way to chip in for any expenses you might, as a group incur. I would LOVE it if you all burned flags -- the bigger the spectacle the better! *making mental note to find flag company to invest in -- the few who might actually have a flag to burn will need to replace 'em and the others will need one to burn!* *BG* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Peace Date: 03 Jul 05 - 06:01 PM Countries should pay attention when its citizens attack its symbols. As Dianavan said, regardless of the effectiveness of flag burning, the activity does show that those who do it feel 'separated' from the processes of their country; powerless to do anything else. The flag represents the White House, and maybe that's what's being burnt in the hearts and minds of those with symbols and matches. IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: MMario Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:12 AM Peace - the flag most certainly does *NOT* represent the White House. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Ebbie Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:21 PM If a husband and wife have a fight and one of them brings out the marriage certificate and burns it, it makes a powerful statement about that person's sentiments but the act has not, in and of itself, affected the validity of the marriage- they can always get another copy of the contract. I would say, though, that it does indicate that the marriage has problems that need to be addressed. So it is with a flag and the nation it represents. I would add that whether one can legitimately burn or harm someone else's flag, or 'holy' book, it depends on who it is. If I'm on my home turf but want to express my displeasure with Muslim adherents I might be justified in burning the Koran. I had better NOT do it while I'm on their turf. Kind of like making disparaging remarks about one's sibling but fighting to the bloody end when someone else does it. By and large, the strongest statement is made by someone protesting their own situation. imo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no? From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:22 PM Flag burning is less hazardous than underwear burning. Accordingly, I am in favour of it. I can't see why people should not burn a flag if they want to. |
