BS: Unite Against Terror

Subject: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 08:28 AM

Read it, sign it. No ifs no buts no excuses.

Communities United Against Terror

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 08:29 AM

This one's on the Perception thread as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 08:33 AM

Yes, I put it there.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:07 AM

Ooh, a petition! That'll show 'em! I, like, already want to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony, or buy it a Coke, or some shit like that! What a load. Knee-jerk anti-Muslim propaganda trying reaaaallly hard not to look like knee-jerk anti-Muslim propaganda. Why don't you bitches take responsibility for your actions, and admit that your foreign and domestic policies are the reason you're a target?

Oh, I forgot: "They hate us for our freedom." Never mind. :P

---lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:09 AM

Typical, you didn't get past the title.

Your comment tells more about you than the the petition.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:22 AM

It seems a wee bit selective in what is recognised as terror, and that's not quibbling, because being blind to any kind of terror, including that carried out by agents of governments, is to collude in it, and is to give the wheel another spin.

Here's a bit from a song I once wrote:

And those who'd kill us were once our brothers,
and those who help us may yet be foes,
to take their turn place on this wheel of hatred,
that drives us out down those endless roads.
And so it goes, will it be forever
till the wheel stops and the madness ends?
Look down in pity on this world of exiles,
and teach us some way we can start again.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:31 AM

Well I read it and decided not to sign it.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:32 AM

The military has the intention to Ignite against terror for the next 20 years. Hell, the last Gulf War started only 20 years ago.

We will be wandering the desert for 40 years and 40 fights in a great flood of war.

On CNN, the US defense contractors are airing commercials like crazy. I don't know any consumers who are buying weapons as a result of these ads but; Lockheed, McDonel Douglas, Halliburton* and others are happier than a pig in shit to spend many millions of dollars on their ads.



*Technically Halliburton is a foriegn owned corporation and not subject to US taxation.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:38 AM

Ummm - this all really started back on Nov. 4, 1979 - the take-over of the Tehran embassy.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:40 AM

MoH, did you read the section "Why I signed" ? Many people are against the US/UK intervention in Iraq but still find it important to recognise this for what it is.

For people like LR, who can't even read let alone comprehend, it probably is a waste of time: maybe mudcat should start a junior section for people who reaaaallly need one.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:43 AM

Jon
Well I read it and decided not to sign it.

Why not, if you took the time to read it please say what was in there you didn't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:00 AM

Pretty much on the same lines as McGrath observed in his post. It reads more to me as "government defined" terrorism/ spin and I belive we need to look at the full reasons for terrorism which IMO includes our own actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:03 AM

But aren't we respnsible for the Govt?

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:13 AM

I'm against any form of violence to get a point of view across. I don't care what the label is - it's all obscene whether or not any government condones it or what cause it purports to support.

I signed on that basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Amergin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:13 AM

Yes and this piece of online crap will show them terrorists that we are united against them....yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:22 AM

And what will your comments show them Amergin?

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:28 AM

Many people are against the US/UK intervention in Iraq but still find it important to recognise this for what it is.

It's not just the Iraq invasion, it's all the other campaigns of terror carried out by governments round the world.

The massacre at Srbrenica, ten years ago the other day, was carried out by informed representatives of a government; the genocide in Ruanda was carried out on behalf of a government. (I intentionally avoid mentioning any examples that might be contentious.)

If we are against terror we are against all terror, not picking and choosing. If picking and choosing is OK, why not welcome Al Qaida into the big tent? After all you can be sure there are examples of terror to which they would be happy to denounce. JMuyst nit te ones caried out by themselves and their friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:29 AM

Many people are against the US/UK intervention in Iraq but still find it important to recognise this for what it is.

It's not just the Iraq invasion, it's all the other campaigns of terror carried out by governments round the world.

The massacre at Srbrenica, ten years ago the other day, was carried out by informed representatives of a government; the genocide in Ruanda was carried out on behalf of a government. (I intentionally avoid mentioning any examples that might be contentious.)

If we are against terror we are against all terror, not picking and choosing. If picking and choosing is OK, why not welcome Al Qaida into the big tent? After all you can be sure there are examples of terror to which they would be happy to denounce. Just not the ones carried out by themselves and their friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:31 AM

Many people are against the US/UK intervention in Iraq but still find it important to recognise this for what it is.

It's not just the Iraq invasion, it's all the other campaigns of terror carried out by governments round the world.

The massacre at Srbrenica, ten years ago the other day, was carried out by iniformed representatives of a government; the genocide in Ruanda was carried out on behalf of a government. (I intentionally avoid mentioning any examples that might be contentious.)

If we are against terror we are against all terror, not picking and choosing. If picking and choosing is OK, why not welcome Al Qaida into the big tent? After all you can be sure there are examples of terror to which they would be happy to denounce. Just not the ones carried out by themselves and their friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:37 AM

You can say that again, McGrath :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:40 AM

The reason this site will be hard to accept for a number of people here is that if you read the front page and the reasons for signing you will notice that there is a secondary - to the stand against terrorism - thread. This secondary thread is the utter rejection of those parts of the left who are in complete denial.

e.g. Peter Tatchell - who's not known for supporting government.

I used to be proud to call myself a leftist. Now I feel shame. Much of the left no longer stands for the values of universal human rights and international socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:47 AM

Tatchell and Livingstone are worrying a few people. Once they were followed blindly by those so set in their ways they relied on them to think for them. Now they find themselves in fundamental disagreement with them. Both have risen in my estimation.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:50 AM

Tatchell and Livingstone ... Both have risen in my estimation.

Absolutely, but I always had a bit of a liking for red Ken.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 11:04 AM

MoH, Thomas Cushman, Professor of Sociology, Wellesley College, USA, Editor, Journal of Human Rights
explains it better than I will.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 11:06 AM

Much of "the left" has never stood for the values of universal human rights and international socialism. Life is more complicated than implied by simple labels like that.

But the same goes for the "alliance" represented by that petition.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 11:19 AM

Well my glass is half full.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 11:33 AM

Shakey they were both high in my estimation, they have just reached new heights. Sorry,I didn't want you to think I was anti them before. And yes, I signed.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:44 PM

Unite for Peace. Unite for brotherhood. Unite for equality. Unite for mutual respect. It would be much more effective.

Gandhi did not fight against the British, he fought for India's national sovereignty. To be against someone or something is to believe in separation and division. It is to seek a victory over an imagined opponent. Such a victory will be won only at the cost of many lives, at the cost of great sorrow, and it will invevitably sow the seeds of future conflict.

To be against is to work from a position of anger, even hatred. To be for is to work from a position of love.

"By opposing an enemy, you give him strength." - Lao Tse

I sympathize with some aspects of the petition, yet do not agree with others. Therefore, I did not sign it. The way to make peace in the World is to BE peaceful...not just in your actions, but also in your thoughts. It is to focus on the similarities between yourself and others, rather than the differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:48 PM

So are you telling us that we never have to make a stand.

"It is to seek a victory over an imagined opponent."

Did we all imagine the attacks that have taken place

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:52 PM

If an earlier generation hadn't made a stand against fascism you would have written that remark in German or Japanese.

Oh, then again you wouldn't have had the opportunity would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Amergin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:14 PM

It won't show them a bloody thing...because that supposed petition is not going anywhere. did you expect it to go right in Bin Laden's mailbox? Did you really and truly think that he and his followers would see that and say oh ok...let us all hug and quit this. People signed a faux petition against us and now we gotta stop....again..yawn...

as long as there is poverty and oppressive regimes there will be terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:19 PM

As long as there are people who support, defend and excuse it there will be fascists and terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:25 PM

Shakey....Take your patronising petition and shove it.

I'll bet theres not one person on this forum who supports terrorism but we don't need a load of waffle presented by a self-confessed Labour party hack and a Blairite to boot, to prove it.

Take your petition and present it to Mr Blair.
Get him to sign it before he decides to illegally attack another country and bring more shit down on our heads.
The folk of Mudcat may be a bit "bolshie"....But were not stupid!

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:29 PM

Just which of these can't you sign up to ake?

1. We stand firmly against the racists who seek to exploit the current tensions for their own agenda.
   
   
2. We stand firmly against those who apologize for the terrorists and who misrepresent terrorist atrocities as 'resistance'.
   
   
3. We offer our support and solidarity to all those within the Muslim faith who work in opposition to the terrorists and who seek to win young people away from extremism and nihilism, towards an engagement with democratic politics.
   
   
4. We believe that democracy and human rights are worth defending with all our strength. The human values of respect and tolerance and dignity are not 'western' but universal.
   
   
5. We are not afraid. But we are not vengeful. We believe the kindness of strangers has lit the way and this light will drive away the darkness. We want to join light to light to show that evil, injustice and oppression will not have the final word. Through these acts of human solidarity we will mend the world the terrorists have fractured.
   
   
   Let me guess, would it be number 2

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:38 PM

For what its worth.....hooray for our side.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:10 PM

The material posted with the petition looks to me more like an excuse to promote state sponsored terrorism than a blanket condemnation of all terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:17 PM

So Carol which of the 6 points won't you accept?

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:18 PM

Shakey - Do you send chain letters, too?

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:25 PM

So dianavan which point do you not accept?

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:31 PM

Unite against revolution is just as ambiguous as unite against terror.

When ethnic/religious cleansing is involved I am all for fighting it.

But in the course of human events...

well, a revolution is sometimes required.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

Points from the UAT site that deal with item 2 (see above)

• Those Muslims who have suffered the rape and butchery of dictatorial regimes have no problem seeing the difference between a genocidal monster and a flawed proponent of democracy. It is only the Western "left" that cannot accurately distinguish between the two. There is one way for us to lose and that is if Western apologists continue to do Jihadists' PR.
  
  Abraham Greenwald
  

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• There can be no compromise with a "philosophy" that offers little beyond the breaking of bodies, and one is shocked that there would be cheerleading from leftists and isolationists who, disturbingly, seem to want to adopt these fanatics as their own.
  
  Matthew Omolesky John C. Whitehead School of Diplomacy and International Relations
  

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• The response of part of the Left which I consider myself a part of exhibits, by reflexively blaming the West, a worrying insensitivity towards violent islamic fundamentalism - which is aimed, first and foremost, against the very Enlightenment values that gave birth to the modern Left, rather than being some understandable if misdirected strike against Imperialism.
  
  Merlijn de Smit
  

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• I signed to add my voice to what I hope will be a rising chorus. Those inclined to dissent are not accustomed to raising their voices against anything other than their own governments. I sincerely hope this list can change that.
  
  Dan Lee
  

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• The traditional human rights community (like Amnesty International) and the international left have completely destroyed their own credibility
  
  Adam Katz
  

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• The American left, by and large, has either ignored the threat, or sought to understand and explain it, in the hope that it could be countered by rational dialogue and understanding of reasons and motivations.of the this new form of islamo-fascism. Such attempts are noble, and important, but understanding is not the same as action, and in many cases, the left in the United States has, when given the chance, almost always chosen to vilify the US and its allies in the war against terror by focusing on the historical and contemporary transgressions of the latter, or blaming the US and the UK for the very acts of terrorists themselves.
  
  Thomas Cushman (Professor of Sociology, Wellesley College, USA, Editor, Journal of Human Rights)
  

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• Reflexive anti-Americanism in today's world is very dangerous. It's both distressing and disgusting that some people who call themselves Left support the jihad and Saddam fascism as anti-imperialist. This is not Left, it is pseudo-Left. Blind faith in an old idea is always useless.
  
  Bill Kerr
  

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• I signed because the 'grievances' argument sickens me; that people on the left are willing to pretend acts of fundamentalist terrorism are carried out for reasons very similar to their own amateur anti-imperialism is mind-bending. That people can't/refuse to see fascism for what it is because they don't like George W. Bush and Tony Blair (and in some cases would sooner call them fascists than Osama Bin Laden) is a very serious problem.
  
  Colm Loughlin
  

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• And, again, many intellectuals and opinion-formers have chosen to appease totalitarianism. We must respond firmly to this ideological attack, and its murderous nihilism; and we must also challenge the Chomskified cretino-left which has made common cause with this totalitarian ideology.
  
  Jeffrey Ketland (Philosophy, University of Edinburgh)
  

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• This is a betrayal on an epic scale which casts doubt on whether it is now possible to have a decent left.
  
  Nick Cohen (The Observer)
  

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• Of course, I started out saying we deserved it. I rattled the shibboleths and evoked the totem of roosting chickens. I suddenly reversed my support of the Kurds and the Afghans and the Sudanese, all to blame George Bush. But I knew it was a lie.
  See, like any progressive, I knew that true people's movements don't, as the terrorists do, boast of their love for death, or target the innocent, or espouse Jewish conspiracy theories, or reject democracy on principle, or enslave women ... especially all at once. I'd seen this foe before, and it's name wasn't America. It was fascism, trading in jackboots for keffiyahs and merging Mein Kampf with Qur'an. In this fight as any other, I knew I had to stand where I'd always stood... with the heretics, the hebes, the homos and the harridans.
  
  
  

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  Be they the slaughtered mothers of the Sudan, the roasted innocents of Manhattan or the pulverized cosmopolitans of London or Bali or Tel Aviv, I therefore announce my solidarity with the victims against this rising fascist tide. We have met an enemy that is not us, who hates us for our good ideas, not our bad policies. Fighting it requires no apology.
  
  Robert F. Mason
  

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• I was appalled by the response of much of the left, seeking the noblest motivations possible for terrorism, in contrast to its clearly stated objectives.
  
  David Sloan
  

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• In response, those who get this must assert the values of the enlightenment - liberty, equality, secularism, humanism - with renewed confidence.
  Such values must also be intellectually pummelled into the complacent minds of those more concerned with moronic anti-Americanism, school-playground pacifism and outright fascist sympathising.
  
  Harry Rose
  

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• Progressives of good faith can disagree about the US/UK response to 9/11, and the best way to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But no-one of good faith should be equivocating over what to think about terrorists, theocrats, and anti-Semites.
  I may have disagreements with some of the other names on this petition, including the organisers. But I stand closer to them than with anyone who thinks terrorists and other bullies deserve to win the slightest compromise.
  
  Richard Bartholomew
  

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• The world has become far too tolerant of terrorism. Mass murderers are glamorized as heroic freedom fighters. University professors "stand in solidarity" with monsters who slaughter children lining up for candy. Religious leaders transform crimes against humanity into God's work. Grossly overpaid entertainers rationalize unspeakable brutality as "desperation," telling the bereaved that they themselves are to blame for the deaths of their loved ones. Authors greedy for fame and fortune announce to the world that terrorism is winning, and the rule of law will not prevail. Politicians refuse to act because they worry about jeopardizing their personal power. Journalists sanitize appalling savagery to keep from being ostracized by their peers. Students march in the name of evil, chanting that right is wrong, lies are truth. Many have lost their way. This petition, however, is a clarion call for the rest of us. It states unequivocally that terrorism is never acceptable, and the victims of terrorism have no race, nationality, or religion. Although only a document, this petition may be the seed of a new mind set that refuses to sanction murder, regardless of the killers grievances.
  
  Thomas Wictor
  

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• I won t keep quiet whilst others use shoddy logic to legitimise an ideology of hatred that kills and aims to enslave us all. Those that would rationalise the act of blasting civilians out of existence would kidnap the truth. For nothing less than the sake of humanity, those of us who see these murderers for what they are must keep the truth safe and speak of it at every turn.
  
  Helen Gray
  

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• And we have a responsibility for the political and moral hygiene of the British "left". There are those who, by their equivocation, effectively regard such victims as "legitimate targets" in their idiot's war against "imperialism". They and their allies have no place in our movement.
  
  Simon Pottinger
  

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• Following the London bombing, all the old excuses are out in force. I signed
  this petition to say: 'But' nothing.
  
  David Adler, writer
  

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• The Guardianista fellow-travellers of terror, who stress its supposed causes, are the useful idiots of the Islamofascists.
  At a time when Islamofascism seeks to destroy liberal, democratic civilisation and to replace it with theocracy, it is imperative that those of us who believe in democracy and liberty stand up and fight. Not just against the obvious enemy, but also against the enemy within - those who claim to be on the Left, but whose views have nothing in common with the decency for which the Left ought proudly to stand.
  
  Stephen Pollard (Writer)
  

Look in the mirror, does the cap still fit?

Shakey
Proud (again) to be left wing

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:35 PM

This terrorist violence is not a response by 'Muslims' to the injustices perpetrated upon them by 'the west'. Western democracies have been responsible for some of the ills of this world but not for the terrorist murders of these deluded Bin-Ladenists.

This bit, for one. It underplays the role of state sponsored terrorism in the current state of affairs (and in so doing, implies approval of it).

These terrorists do not hate what is worst in the societies they attack, but what is best. They despise individual liberty, critical thought, gender equality, religious tolerance, the rights of minorities and political pluralism. They do not criticize democracy because it sometimes fails to live up to its principles; they oppose those principles.

This bit as well. The people at the highest levels may indeed be motivated by these things, but most of the rank and file, so to speak, would probably not be available recruits for the people at the highest levels had not governments of Western countries practiced state sponsored terrorism in many of their home countries.


I condemn ALL uses of "terror" as a strategy for controling people, regardless of whether it is done by governments, or by paramilitary organizations. I think it's unfortunate that the people sponsoring the petition don't do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:41 PM

You've no need to look in the mirror Carol, trust me the cap fits.

...the useful idiots of the Islamofascists

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:44 PM

Shakey - Do you send chain letters, too?

This from someone who's made about a zillion postings, come come.


What's wrong has somebody stolen <>your forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:55 PM

Who will this petition be sent to?

Why do they need donations?

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:56 PM

That term, "useful idiots" was cooked up by propagandists in the US in during the cold war. The useful idiots are the ones who believe government propaganda. And I think you need to take some time to learn the definition of "fascist".

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:04 PM

Speaking on BBC News 24 at this moment, ex CIA operative Ben McGovern

"The figures speak for themselves, since the war, over 500 suicide bombs in Iraq....before the war, 0 suicide bombs .
We must drain the swamp of grievances in the Middle East over the policies of Mr Bush and Mr Blair.
This is the only way to keep our people safe"

Shove it!

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:05 PM

Well according to the front page all donations are being sent to a bomb relief fund, and while it says the London fund, I hope and believe it will be wider than that because that's the way we are here.

Where will it be sent, who knows, who cares. It's an affirmation that individuals can make, and helps us see that we're not alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:14 PM

Ake, at least Carol is useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:20 PM

And I think you need to take some time to learn the definition of "fascist".

Carol on the UAT site about 45 people give their reasons for signing, the word fascist appears 41 times.

I forgot, you're right the rest of the world is wrong.

PS don't bother google or wicki with this, Oh, but then you'd have nothing to say would you.