BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question

Subject: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 09:14 PM

This is an inquiry the teenaged son of a friend of mine made of the Dr Pepper people and the reply they gave him.
I don't really get the rule of grammar cited by their response but then again English grammar can be a thing of complexity so maybe I'm missing something.
I'm sure some of you erudite mudcatters can provide insights into this pressing matter.

Dear Dr. Pepper people,
> I was sipping on a very tasty Dr. Pepper one day while contemplating your
> packaging. I asked myself, why is there no period after the Dr? Without
> the period its not the abbreviation for doctor and is not pronounced
> Doctor, but Durr. Durr Pepper?
> There must have been a concious decision to make it this way. I was just
> wondering, what's that reason?
> Thanks for your time,
> Canadian Pepper Drinker


Dear Mr.******
>
> Thank you for contacting us about Dr Pepper. Your comments and inquiries
> are appreciated because they provide valuable feedback about our brands.
>
> The reason there is no dot after the "r" in Dr Pepper is becasue it does
> not refer to the title of a person. The dot after the "r" sould only be
> used when it is the title of a specific person.
>
> We appreciate you contacting us and hope you will continue to enjoy our
> brands.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Consumer Relations
>

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 09:48 PM

There is no period after the "Dr" in "Dr Pepper" for exactly the same reason there's no period after the "B" or the "S" in "BS" which, incidentally, is a pretty apt description of the Dr Pepper People's response.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: number 6
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 09:59 PM

The Dr. Pepper group are so ... so efficient.

The marketing of the mediocre into the mundane, with the perception of the preeminent.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 10:08 PM

Dr Pepper, so misunderstood....

10,4,2 to ya'all...

Dr(.) Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 10:11 PM

if everyone would try it,
They'd know it tastes good ( so good).

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 10:18 PM

That is unmitigated BS indeed. I concur with B.W.L.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 10:24 PM

Old Mrs. Worcester, my English and Latin teacher, was fond of pointing out grammatical errors in adverts. Her favourite one was "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette should!" She was so effective, I've never forgotten it should be "as" a cigarette should. Advertisers don't care, though...whatever will sell their product...when we brainstormed at the radio station, for new ad slogans, we called it "we build a better burger" sessions.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 10:41 PM

They have tried marketing Dr Pepper in Australia - they must have changed the formula, cause when I tried it again a little while ago it was still not enjoyable, but much weaker in flavour. The first time I nearly threw up, the taste was so strong.

It hasn't captured much of a market here.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: number 6
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 10:46 PM

Wo! I feel good, I knew that I wouldn't of
I feeeel good, I knew that I wouldn't of
So good, so good, I got you


sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 10:50 PM

Hahaha, F-troope,

Reminds me of Woddy Allen when asked to critique a ceratin resturant and he said, "The food is lousy and the portions are small..."

Nevermind...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Kaleea
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 11:51 PM

Whadd'ya want? Good grammer? Or good taste?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:35 AM

Ask a silly question...

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: GUEST,Topsie
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:40 AM

In modern British punctuation, the full stop (period) is used when the last letter of the abbreviation is missing, as in etc. (etcetera), ed. (editor), Prof. (Professor), but not when the last letter is included, as in eds (editors), Ltd (Limited), Dr (Doctor).

As for taste - when I was a child I loved Tizer. It had a pleasing, slightly caramel-like taste. I tried it recently and it was just horribly sweet. Has Tizer changed or is it just me?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:12 AM

"Dr Pepper, so misunderstood....

10,4,2 to ya'all..."

OK I give up. What's the answer?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:29 AM

Topsie beat me to it.

I was always under the impression that the rule wa sindeed as pointed out - Hence no stop after Mr , Mrs or Miss - The latter 2 being abreviations of Mistress btw.

Always wondered how it worked on abreviations with the last part missing but something else substituted - Dave instead of David springs to mind for some reason;-)

Or how about where both the begining and end are truncated? Scrip for prescription for instance. Should it be .scrip. ?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: s&r
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:54 AM

Probably 'scrip.
Much puctuation has been modified by the adoption of 'open punctuation' originally used to reduce typewriter keystrokes in the Civil Service. It upsets those who think that grammatical conventions are unalterable: most of the world don't give a toss.

Compare: Mr J.A.Smith B.A. Cert.Ed. with: Mr J A Smith BA CertEd I prefer the latter.

Dr and Mr are contractions ie they contain the first and last letters of the shortened word - they should never have a full stop (period, point).

Should you have apostrophes in P's and Q's or photo's?

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 06:16 AM

It's all just sugar water and a few flavourings, instant tooth rot.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 08:27 AM

Well, Paul the misunderstood part is the "10,4, 2" that any one familiar with the old bottles knows all to well but probablt doesn't have a clue, myself included, about the origin. Throw in this ragin' debate on the use of periods and the misunderstandings double... period...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 08:27 AM

In regards to the rules of grammar cited by Topsie et al, is this something new or peculiar to British English as I consulted an English grammar textbook from the 1950s (when I was in school) that was used in North America and they put periods after Mr. Dr. etc. This is the way we were taught over here. Reading today's newspaper I see that they also employ a period in these cases.

Hmmm...this is getting curious, perhaps Peace can provide some insight as he is a teacher (of English?).

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: s&r
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 08:51 AM

Collins English Dictionary shows Mr and Dr without the dot. The oldest English primer I have shows them with a dot. There are some wonderful examples of dated construction eg :
Dr. Thos. Smith, M.P., a brother of the famous Harley St. surgeon who recently toured the U.S.A. was married on the 4th inst. in St. Margaret's Chapel, Westminster.

I think we've moved on from that.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: mooman
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 09:05 AM

From the "English Plus" site:

Abbreviations

Confused?

I certainly am!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: curmudgeon
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 09:34 AM

The University of Chicago Manual of Style, Fifteenth (newest) Edition disagrees with Topsie on all counts, pp. 560 - 568.

While the military , ever in the forefront of good grammar, has now stopped using periods for rank, ie. ADM, CPT, GEN, the manual advises writers to use the old style with periods to avoid confusing readers.

Most likely, the lack of a period in Dr Pepper is a legalism to prevent literate persons from thinking the beverage is medicinal.

Good words to all - Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 09:58 AM

The pseudo black cherry flavor of Dr Pepper is actually derived naturally from prune juice. If you know prune juice you will identify it the next time you have a Dr Pepper.

As Worf would say "it is a warriors drink"

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:09 AM

Topsie did specify 'British punctuation'. The Chicago Manual of Style is American and US puctuation differs from British in many respects - though I'm not sure which rules apply in Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Dr. Guitar
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:20 AM

Dear Friends,

Well, of course it has a period/full stop/point!

Yours most sincerely,

Dr. Guitar
(forgotten but not lost)

P.S. The decoction without punctuation described above is, by the way, most useful when used in small quantities to remove the detritus from old strings and, in larger quantities, to clean staining from the ceramic surfaces of water closets. I cannot affirm to its nutrient or other related properties as it is not my beverage of choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:28 AM

...wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?

Peter Piper picked a peck of period-less Dr Peppers.
If Peter Piper picked a peck of period-less Dr Peppers,
How improperly punctuated were the period-less Dr Peppers
that Peter Piper Picked?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Splott Man
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:45 AM

My English teacher used to say it's the difference between an abbreviation and a contraction.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: s&r
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 11:42 AM

The paperclip in Word is happy with or without the full stop after Mr Dr etc.

Or do you prefer:

The "paperclip" in "Word" is happy with, or without, the full stop after Mr. Dr. etc..

When I worked in technical publishing we had a house style which standardized the conventions that we would use.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:11 PM

Hi Doc!

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:27 PM

S&R commented:

Dr and Mr are contractions ie they contain the first and last letters of the shortened word - they should never have a full stop (period, point).

So maybe it should be written D'r Pepper???

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:34 PM

Just incidentally, I'll quarrel wtih the Subject of this thread.

This problem dealing with "Dr" or "Dr." is not really a matter of grammar. It's not even, in the older and technical sense of the word, to do with punctuation, which is the rules for using signs such as the period (full stop), comma, semicolon and colon, and maybe the dash, to regulate the rhythm, I suppose you'd say, or timing, of reading a written text.

May of the written symbols we use aren't punctation, although we sometimes loosely refer to them as such. Take the question mark (?) and the exclamation point (!), which are rhetorical indicators.

But none of those marks have to do with grammar.

Dave Oesterreich

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:36 PM

And then we have that problematical PC thingie, "Ms".   It's neither an abbreviation of anything nor a contraction of anything, and therefore should stand as what it really is, a word. Never mind that it doesn't have a vowel in it as written; it's pronounced as if it had an "i". Doesn't call for a period or full stop.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: GUEST,Topsie
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:47 PM

Perhaps we should bring back the title Mistress - meaning that the person is an adult, responsible for her own life and decisions, whether married or not. Mistress would have the same relation to Miss as Mister has to Master - a young man who is not yet considered to have reached adulthood and responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: s&r
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:50 PM

A lot depends on why you use these indicators. My belief is that they best serve to clarify meaning. I welcome simplicity, and prefer Dr to Dr. and D'r (though the last has a certain whimsy). With typescript as against handwriting, spaces can take the place of dots eg J M Barrie not J.M.Barrie, because the relatively fixed space is readily seen.

When we decided to use open punctuation I was not happy; now I find that all the extra points and commas look cluttered and amateur.

I much prefer to think of these matters as conventions rather than rules. I would only wish for consistent usage within a document. My own guide is 'Rules of Printed English@ by Herbert Rees, a book which I find logical and helpful.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 03:29 PM

Bobert et al,

The 10, 2 and 4 were the times one was supposed to take a drink of Dr Pepper. It was originally developed as a tonic/digestive.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 03:34 PM

Why would one get up in the middle of the night to drink Dr Pepper?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 03:48 PM

10 am, 2 pm, 4 pm

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 03:54 PM

See? that just makes all the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Peace
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 08:15 PM

It is coming into common usage to omit the period even after abbreviations like Ms, Mrs, Mr, etc. However, I think because it's a brand name product, they can spell it (ounctuate it) the way they want.

I always loved the honest of the Lands' End people. They said, "We made a mistake, and before we noticed, the company had become very popular." Makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 08:26 PM

I agree with you Peace but I think the public relations person's explanation was a snow job.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Kaleea
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 08:38 PM

10, 2, & 4, are about when one might need some refreshment:
10:00 A.M., morning work break, 2:00, afternoon work break, 4:00 when one got off work.
The advertisements & the bottle of Dr Pepper used to have a (round) clock face on it with those numbers.

Dr Pepper is not the only naughty grammar rule breaker.
Ever notice the name of the cereal isn't Capt. Crunch, it is:
         "Cap'n Crunch"

      Ex vice presidents who can't spell? Major corporations using incorrect punctuation? What are they thinking? At least Cap'n Crunch uses some kind of punctuation marking.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 09:08 PM

According to the authorities English does NOT have 'a' grammar since it didn't.

In the 1800s the Victorians decided to ape Latin by applying its Romanish rules to Anglish.

What a f****ng mess it all now is become.

We have Ozanglish, Yanglish, Canadanglish, Iranglish, Newzealanglish, Afranglish, which are a few main varieties - complete with their own unique spelling and Grammar Nazis!

What was so bad or wrong with the excellence of Locke, Johnson, even Shakespear?

I say to hell with Grammar and Grammar Nazis, let the English language again live instead of smother in endless gobblede-speckledeegook.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Peace
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 09:31 PM

The problem with grammar is that most people don't know it--not this or any other language.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: RangerSteve
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 09:49 PM

There is officially no apostrophe in Pikes Peak. There should be. It was named by Zebulon Pike, not Zebulon Pikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:38 PM

Sorefingers commented:

I say to hell with Grammar and Grammar Nazis, let the English language again live instead of smother in endless gobblede-speckledeegook.

I appreciate your attitude, but the fact is that the language does live its own life, always has, and always will--grammarians and schoolmarms notwithstanding! The relation of grammarians to language is like the relation of astronomers to the stars: They can tell you what the stars are doing, but they can't tell the stars what to do!

Every language has a grammar; otherwise no-one could understand it, and it wouldn't even be a language. "Grammar" merely means the set of assumptions which the language-speakers know to follow, often not even knowing they are following them. A two-year-old child already has absorbed a complex understanding of the "rules" by which he/she needs to speak, and by which he/she needs to measure mommy's speech in order to know what she's saying. And subcultural dialects like Ebonics are not "ungrammatical"; they just run by a different grammar than what we are pleased to call "Standard English".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: number 6
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 11:53 PM

bottom line is who cares about the grammar stamped onto an aluminium can of Docktor Peppper .... it's just a damned soda pop. A product to be found in the aisle right next ro all the crunchy polyunsaturated fat snacks at your local supermarket (now there is a word for ya) or 7-eleven (and what about the structure of that word).

.. and what kind of reply would we expect from the consumer relations peeple at Docktor Pepper or Coca kola or whoever is bottling it this week.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:39 AM

sIx

This is more about a young person's curiousity and taking the trouble to find an answer to a question he has and not accepting an answer he thinks is bogus.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: number 6
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 11:25 AM

I think one should teach their children that whatever they buy in the soda pop, snack isles not to be taken seriously .. unless eaten ... would you want to eat something packaged like that?

If one of my kids wrote that letter and got such a reply ... the answer I would provide them is exactly what I posted above.

Education of your children also includes how to decipher what is around them in the real world.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: number 6
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 11:48 AM

... correction aisles, not isles.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 01:08 PM

bobad - I'm glad you have a son that is exploring the rules of written language. The fact that he noticed the anomoly, speaks volumes for his curiosity and interest. It also speaks well of you as a parent.

When I read the original post, I knew that Dr was right but did not agree with the explanation given by the company.

I think you can chalk it up to 'commercial license'.

Same reason we have words like X-mas.

Dr isn't really an abbreviation because their isn't really a doctor in this instance. Its just a brand name.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 03:01 PM

The reason there's no period is that they can name their drink anything they want. The lack of a period makes the label look slightly less cluttered. Rules of punctuation have nothing to with it.

The reason given by Consumer Relations may simply mean that neither the writer nor anybody at adjacent desks had the slightest idea why there's no period and couldn't find anyone else to ask.

Another interesting question is whether "Dr Pepper" once had a period that was later removed.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:35 PM

What began as a lighthearted, somewhat tongue in cheek, inquiry has evolved into a reaction against what is perceived as a thoughtless responce which is more a brush off and sales pitch than an attempt to satisfy a customer's curiousity.

I agree with all of you who expressed disdain towards the soft drink industry, they definitely do not hold the health of the world's children in high regard. At the same time don't sell today's kids short as far as being unwitting dupes of industry goes. Being of a generation that is computer savy and having access to the www they are much more informed than most of us were at their age.

BTW the subject of this thread is the son of a friend of mine, not my son. I think it is commendable that he does not accept the kind of answer he got and is following up on it. Hopefully these qualities of inquiry and persistance will evolve as he matures to make him an individual who does not accept without questioning what he is fed by politicians, teachers, the advertising industry etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:07 PM

If it's missing a period is there any chance Dr Pepper is pregnant?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Pepper Grammar Question
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 08:59 PM

So is this related to the reason that McDonalds have started using lower case 'i' in their slogan: "I'm lovin' it"?

LTS