BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.

Subject: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: The Curator
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:30 AM

A hearty congratulations to our brothers in Palestine from the people of Ireland on regaining your land on the Gaza Strip. The world saw the repression you endured by the invading force over several decades. Well done and peace and happiness for the future.Your heartache has saw victory today.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: alanabit
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:44 AM

Let's hope peace comes to all the peoples of the Middle East. A friend who had lived in Beirut before the civil war there told me that it was a Paradise on earth before ethnic conflicts were unleashed. We have to stop talking about victories over opponents and value peace as the real prize.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:49 AM

Peace will come, and when it does people will be unable to understand what happened before. And it's only when people are unable to understand what happened before that it will in fact be peace, rather than just an interlude of truce before it all starts up again.

That's a long way off in the Holy Land. And still a fair way to go in Ireland. But it will come.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Tam the man
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:02 AM

Good old Palestinians, I just Pray that peace will come to that land, I just hope that attidudes change

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:27 AM

Unfortunately Gaza is only part of the problem, there's the whole of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, plus the question of the land within "legal" Israel that was confiscated from displaced Palestinians after 1947.

The only solution that I can foresee is a non- sectarian, non- racial state that encompasses both Israel amnd Palestine, with Jerusalem being perhaps under international control as a first step.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: alanabit
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:52 AM

I don't know if you are right or not Paul, but I think everyone will be glad that one more obstacle to peace is being removed. Sometimes solving smaller problems first opens the path to dealing with the bigger ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Tam the man
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 10:11 AM

Except the Settelers, they don't like it or some of them, but if this brings peace or the start for peace, then I'm behind it

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 10:14 AM

I've lost the plot a little on this, where can I find information on it please including the history?

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 10:42 AM

Sharon's speech on Gaza pullout

Israel Begins evicting Settlers

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 11:24 AM

I think "The" was trolling for Martin Gibson, this is a little love note to the departed one.

The Palestinians have actually avoided doing anything. The Israeli pullout is by government fiat.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 11:35 AM

It's a start.

Now we have to see if the Palestinian Authority can control the extremists in Gaza. If they can, then that will help convince many in Israel that they can give up land in the West Bank. If they cannot, then there is no hope for further withdrawls for a generation.

It's going to take a lot of tolerance and trust on both sides, and alot of luck.

I think the only solution for Jerusalem is some kind of international status, very defintly not belonging to either side

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:31 PM

Why are the Palestinians expected to control their extremists when the Isreali government can't control theirs? In the last two weeks extremist settlers have murdered several Palestinians in cold blood. The government of Israel was not able to prevent this from happening. Why would anyone expect that the Palestinian authorities should have greater control over their extremists than the Israeli authorities have over theirs? This is a double standard.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:54 PM

We many of us live in lands gained by force of arms, arranged marriage or a handfull of beads. The rights or wrongs of this particular conflict do not excuse the blood spilled by both sides.
Giok.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: kirstenanderberg
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:57 PM

I heartily DO congratulate the Palestinians right now! Sharon has finally quit STALLING what he PROMISED to do YEARS ago! I have NYTimes saved from years back with Sharon getting benefits from Palestinians for that promise and each and every freakin' time he renegged on it...FINALLY the time has come and I have Zero sympathy for the settlers being moved. On top of it all, a huge percentage of those settlers trying to claim that settlement land flew in from the US! At least ten years ago, 40,000 American Jews had been flown into the Gaza Strip to occupy land that had belonged to Palestinian farm families for generations. And then, America somehow backed the Israeli army in a way we never would with Palestine, as if Israel had an American army, which it basically does, thus we armed the white pocket of folks in the middle of the Middle East...you better start following the plot, person who said you were lost, cuz the WTC attacks, the kids coming home in body bags now, all of this is related to YOUR country and YOUR tax dollars...and wars going on in your name.

I am SOOOOOO happy to see Sharon finally quit stalling, lying and breaking treaties!!! Finally, this day has come! I am so happy for this...this is the first step and nothing could be done without this. Finally Sharon did what he has promised to do for too long now.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Grab
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:43 PM

By the latest stats, Hamas has better guns and training than the Palestinian authorities, and they are not bound by any rules to make them follow the elected leaders of Palestine. That's why people are more worried about what the Palestinian extremists will do.

The Israelis are just as full of rabid nutters, if not more so. The Palestinians just want their land back, whereas the Israelis reckon they've got a divine right to it, which is utterly bonkers. But the Israeli army at least is bound to follow what the politicians say, and they're better armed and trained than the settlers so they can make it stick. It doesn't stop the settlers being dangerous to Palestinians, but at least it means the settlers can be controlled (and evicted) by the Israeli authorities. If the Hamas extremists decided on full-scale open war tomorrow, they could do so, and there would be absolutely nothing that the Palestinian government could do about it. For that reason, I'm with Bunnahabhain - I hope that the leaders of Hamas all have the sense to let things be and enforce that amongst their followers.

It certainly is nice to see Sharon sticking to the pullout plan. That bastard has so much blood on his hands from what he did to incite the last big round of violence. I'm just glad he saw there was no future in things carrying on as they were.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: open mike
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:02 PM

Why must they destroy the buildings which exist there now as they pull out? Sems a waste to leave only rubble behind..perhaps they could leave the buildings intact so that the Palestinians are not inheriting a mess?

seems full of vengefullness to smash everything...

this situation has been full of venge and re-venge for centuries now.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,bruce
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:06 PM

Repression by the invading force? I thought the Arabs invaded and lost the war. Maybe we should give Texas back to the Mexicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:11 PM

It was Arabs who were living there (Gaza) in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:00 PM

Really, Carol. Source, please. My understanding is that the whole area has been inhabited by various Semitic peoples for a few thousand years.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:14 PM

Aren't "Semitic peoples" Arabs, Mick?

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:17 PM

Ever heard the term "anti Semitic" applied to those that hate Jews? The Jews are also Semitic peoples, and have lived in that area as long as Arabs have, if I am not mistaken. I stand ready to be corrected.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:22 PM

To the extent that Jews are Semitic peoples, it is because they have a common ancestry to the other Semitic peoples. The Jews who left the Middle East and migrated to Europe are only Semitic because of this common ancestry.

There were Jews living in Gaza prior to the European settlement of that area, but they were Arabic Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: The Curator
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:24 PM

They were turfed off their land by the British and Americans in 1946 to deal with the post war problem. Hence New State.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:42 PM

Again I ask for sources. I believe that many of the folks that left were forced to leave, but again I am willing to stand corrected. The only distinction I know of between Semitic Jews and some form of non semitic Jew would be those that came to the religion as opposed to being born Jewish.

Using your explanation, would Palestinians who left the area and immigrated to Europe not be considered Semites?

I am making these distinctions to make the point that congratulations will be in order when these "cousins" are living in peace. I would prefer to congratulate Jews and Arab, semitic cousins, on an accord which allows them to recognize what they have in common, and celebrate that which is different.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 04:09 PM

There is no such thing as Arabic Jews. Arabic is a language. Apart from that you are more or less right about the Gaza Jewry.
Frankly if we go back far enough, the Palestinians are the same people as the Jews, but overlaid with Arab, Turk, Greek, Sudanese, etc.
For the last time, Anti-Semitism reffers exclusively to Jews. It was coined by Wilhelm Marr to define hatred of Jews.
Isn't there a little too much gloating on this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 04:15 PM

First of all, Mick, I have not congratulated anyone.

Secondly, you are asking me to support a point that I have not made.

There are European Jews (Ashkenazim), there are Spanish Jews (Sephardim), and there are Arabic Jews (Mizrahim). What I am saying is that the distinction between the term "Arab" and "Jew" is a false one, since there are many Jews who are Arabs by virtue of their ancesters having never left the area, and all Jews who are not the product of conversion can trace their ancestry back the same male ancester as all other Semitic peoples. At least that is the story as told in the Bible. There are Arabic Christians as well.

Using your explanation, would Palestinians who left the area and immigrated to Europe not be considered Semites?

Yes, they are Semites.


Re: my earlier point... it was not a justification of anything. My point is that independence for Palestinians should not be conditional upon the Palestinian leadership being able to completely control Palestinian extremists. This is hypocritical and a double standard, since the Israeli government has consistantly shown that it cannot control Israeli extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 04:17 PM

It surprises me that you would say that there are no Arabic Jews, Le Scaramouche, especially since you yourself live in the area. I know there a quite a few Mizrahim whose first language is Arabic, who would would also be very surprised to learn that they don't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 04:23 PM

No, I said no ARABIC Jews. It's pedantic, but Arabic is a language. The proper term being Arab. Anyway, Arabs are only part of the Mizrahis. There are also Berbers and Persians. Mountain Jews and Kurds are a different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 05:01 PM

Thanks for the clarification, Le Scaramouche. That's good to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 06:39 PM

re sources of who was living there, the Jewish view is presented in Professor Julius Stone's book, "Israel and Palestine - Assault on the Law of nations" He quotes from census documents that:

"On the merely political and commonsense level, there is also ground for greater tolerance towards Israel's position, not only because of the historic centrality of Jerusalem to Judaism for 3,000 years, but also because in modern times Jews have always exceeded Arabs in Jerusalem. In 1844 there were 7,000 Jews to 5,000 Moslems; in 1910, 47,000 Jews to 9,800 Moslems; in 1931, 51,222 Jews to 19,894 Moslems; in 1948, 100,000 Jews to 40,000 Moslems, and in 1967 200,000 Jews to 54,902 Moslems."

Unfortunately I have only found an edited edition of this treatise here-
source - International Law and the Arab-Israel Conflict

Another pertinent comment from the same document:

"Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) leaders have frankly disavowed distinct Palestine identity. On March 3, 1977, for example, the head of the PLO Military Operations Department, Zuhair Muhsin, told the Netherlands paper Trouw that there are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese:

"We are one people. Only for political reasons do we carefully underline our Palestinian identity. For it is of national interest for the Arabs to encourage the existence of the Palestinians against Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestine identity is there only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian State is a new expedient to continue the fight against Zionism and for Arab unity."…

That statement admits the Arab tactic that the existence of a separate Palestine identity is there only for tactical reasons, and so a struggle is justified. It is clear at least that there have been both Jews and Arabs living in Palestine for hundreds of years, and as Ariel Sharon has now acknowledged, in Gaza the Arab Palestinians now vastly outnumber the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:08 PM

Interesting point, Freda. I think there are many Palestinians who would be very happy to live in a purely secular state that encompasses both the area that is now Israel, as well as the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, with no particular religious identity or affiliation, and where land ownership is not affiliated with any particular religion. I don't think the government of Israel is considering that option, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: michaelr
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:11 PM

Sorry to pee in the soup here, but I believe the butcher Sharon has ulterior motives in this.

The obvious thing that comes to mind is that the Gaza pullout is a bone thrown to the Palestinians to appease international pressure: "See, we gave them Gaza; we're good guys after all." This may well cement Israel's occupation of the much larger and more important West Bank (which includes Jerusalem, after all).

But it could go much deeper than that. I do not believe that Sharon would give the Palestinians the sweat off his balls unless he had some nefarious reason.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:36 PM

He wrote it in a different context but I think this song of Buddy's is fairly appropo:

Isaiah's Dream

Buddy Tabor
Juneau, Alaska
(c) 2005

Oh a soldier sleeps in a flag-draped grave
You hid your lies behind the life he gave
You had your will but you lied to him
Now the tears flow like water down the faces of his next of kin

When we rose up to say you were wrong
Like Saul you gnashed your teeth in propaganda's song
You wanted power to gain control
And yes, it seems that you have lost your very soul

    Oh the vine is green and the wine is red
    And the Word was made Flesh and you know that Flesh has bled
    Oh, peace will come but I don't know when
    All I know is that spark of hope still burns within

Isaiah's dream is coming 'round
With the sword hammered into a plow on fertile ground
Oh the thorns are sharp but peace will come
And one day all of us will dance to a different drum

Yes, there'll come a day when there'll be no more war
And it won't be taught to the nations of the world any more
Yes, that day will come but I don't know when
All I know is that spark of hope still burns within

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:42 PM

No! it is not a day to celebrate or congratulate- and for my Irish part I do not celebrate this horror!

What was so wrong with leaving those who wanted to stay where they were?

Could not all the people live in peace as they wished?

It is a day of shame and Irish people should most of all know about such a disgrace. Until the Israelis returned to the land it withered while the sparse population lay about shrieking and smoking Hasheesh. Now that it is blooming, the greedy take it away and give it back to thugs and murderers!

It is appeasement to achieve G_d only knows what!

When children are crying to heaven to save them and nobody can it is time to prepare for far worse things!

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:02 PM

I don't trust Sharon any further than I can throw him but...

... with that said this is a good first step. And a long overdue one.

Now let's see about the West Bank???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: podman
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:27 PM

If the Jews get turfed off of Gaza, the Pally's get turfed off the West Bank.


It's Only Fair

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: michaelr
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:41 PM

Until the Israelis returned to the land it withered while the sparse population lay about shrieking and smoking Hasheesh. Now that it is blooming, the greedy take it away and give it back to thugs and murderers!

Jaysus, sorefingers, you are Irish? That sounds like something Maggie Thatcher might say...

If the Jews get turfed off of Gaza, the Pally's get turfed off the West Bank. It's Only Fair

No it isn't, podman. But that's going to be Sharon's next step, I fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:55 PM

The problem with leaving them where they were is that they have been living in Jewish only communities, with Jewish only access roads, guarded by the IDF, that have required the destruction of the homes of many thousands of Palestinians.

Had the settlers been willing to live in Palestinian villages along side of the Palestinians, living as Jewish Palestinians, that would have been another situation all together. And one that I, personally, would have applauded.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 10:02 PM

Also, the Jewish only communities and Jewish only roads have been placed in such a way as to separate Palestinian villages from each other, and also to separate Palestinians from their farmland and olive groves.

Also, the settlers have been harassing the Palestinians with various kinds of violence, including shooting at them, and also the Jewish only communities have been appropriating a disproportionate percentage of the water resources, even for things like watering lawns and filling swimming pools, while the Palestinians haven't even been allowed enough for their basic survival needs, such as washing or watering their crops.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 04:55 AM

I think both "sides" of the debate can easily list off atrocities committed bu the other party. Both sides are victims, both sides have blood on their hands. The hope for the future is that despite living in a war zone, some people are strong enough to step out of the political violence to work towards a new future.

This book, Healing Israel/Palestine: A Path to Peace and Reconciliation , Healing Israel/Palestine argues that it is possible to be both pro-Israel and pro-Palestine. There are two book reviews on the site, one which says that the book is dangerous airy fairy rubbish, the other which argues that developing such an attitude is the only real resolution to the war.

This other book, Tried by Fire
, is written by two men, one an Israeli intelligence officer, one was Yasser Arafat's chief ilieutenant and spokesperson. These two men crossed the boundaries of hate, and started working together towards finding peace, finally becoming friends. It is a fascinating book.


freda

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 05:06 AM

Is anyone else hearing the news of people barracading themselves into a synagogue, and thinking 'Masada'?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 06:00 AM

This beautiful tune, Baym Rebn in Palestina, (best version I could get at quickly) is to me how it SHOULD have been, and could yet be with goodwill.

With the Rabbi in Palestine, gentle, respected, dignified.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 06:28 AM

Masada

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 08:32 AM

I went to a forum a couple of years ago, in which various members of the Jewish community debated whether to pull out of the Occupied Territories or not. There was such a split in opinion between the very religious Jews and the others. It seemed that the ultra orthodox were granted exemption from serving in the Israeli army some decades ago, out of respect for their role as keepers of the old religious tradition. They came forth and flourished - and many live as settlers in the occupied areas, in the hope that by living in these places, they will help bring to fruition the Biblical prophecy that the Messiah will return, once these places are inhabited by Jews.

The more secular population in Israel has greatly resented having to send their sons and daughters to risk their lives and fight in the army, to defend the fundamentalist religious Jews who are exempt from fighting, who live in the occupied areas. So what is happening now is a real battle between very religious Jews and more secular or conservative jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 08:35 AM

as this Editorial from the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz, shows..

Extortion by sanctity; 18/08/2005   


The High Court of Justice is to rule in the coming days on a petition by the rabbi of the settlement of Elei Sinai, Yishai Bar-Chen, who is asking the state to move the synagogue building in its entirety from the Gaza Strip to within the Green Line. This is a disingenuous petition which, like other petitions of the settlers, makes sophisticated use of liberal principles like individual and community rights in order to carry out deranged messianic acts.
The walls of the synagogues, their floors, roofs and any other part of the structure in which people pray, are neither sacred nor sacrosanct. There is no reason not to take the buildings apart, sell them or make any other use of them the state sees fit. In any case, the communities will bring out the synagogue's sacred objects and memorial plaques. But moving entire buildings just because they served for a time as synagogues will create a dangerous precedent that will show up the weakness of the institution of statehood in the face of the settlers' emotional blackmail.

This blackmail is in operation all across the ritual board that stems from the teachings of the Yesha rabbis, Chabad and the like. They have sanctified not only the furrows of the earth, but the trees and the rocks. Neveh Dekalim is suddenly defined as a "holy place." The religious college may not be touched because it contains sacred objects, abandoning trees planted in Gush Katif is a serious infraction of halakha (Jewish law), for which transgressors will be punished in the world to come, and on and on with other inventions of this ilk, in the twilight zone between the devotion of the gullible and the simple, and cynical exploitation by religious politicians of their religion and their religiosity. The exploitation of the objects is nothing compared to the repulsive and well advertised exploitation of the worship of God. Leading this line, together with the extremists of the Gush, are the thousands of infiltrators who came to the Gaza Strip - they and their rabbis. They make sure to show up for morning prayers just when the army has to open the gate, to call for grace after meals or afternoon prayers just when it is time to pack or get on the bus. They hold on to the Holy Ark as if it were the horns of the altar and wail ecstatically over every book of Psalms, from beginning to end, the moment they see there are microphones and cameras around.

The soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces and the police are under tremendous physical and emotional pressure. The restrained and responsible manner in which they are dealing with the task shows over and over to every citizen of Israel the meaning of deep commitment to the flag of Israel and the symbol of the menorah on their uniforms. The cynical emotional and religious blackmail of the settlers and the infiltrators, taken from the dubious inventory of shallow and kitschy messianic ritual (some of which is tainted by truly non-Jewish symbols), nevertheless manages to reverberate with large segments of the public.

The High Court justices will be wrong if they let this noise influence them. The transfer of even one wall as a holy object will be enough to plant the seal of approval on false-messianism, against the danger of which the state has finally began to defend itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 09:14 AM

a view from the Guardian on why the withdrawal..

Sharon breaks covenant with settlers;
Security interests no longer aligned with messianic minority's dream of greater Israel; Chris McGreal in Neve Dekalim; Thursday August 18, 2005; The Guardian


In removing just 8,000 of the 400,000-plus Jews living on occupied Palestinian land, Mr Sharon acknowledged that the dream of greater Israel was dead and the country's security interests were no longer aligned with the settlers whose desires once dominated government decisions. ... The growing number of young refuseniks who ducked national service because they did not want to serve the occupation could be dismissed as lacking moral fibre. But when helicopter pilots and commandos said they would no longer be complicit in "war crimes", particularly in Gaza, Mr Sharon could not ignore it.

Ordinary Israelis began to ask why nearly 100 soldiers have died in Gaza to protect a few thousand settlers living among more than a million Arabs. Yonatan Bassi, the head of the disengagement authority, described the soldiers as "human flakjackets".

...The Gaza withdrawal plan represented an about face by Mr Sharon.... It represented a significant step towards resolving what Israelis call their demographic problem: how to get rid of responsibility for millions of Arabs who threaten Israel's desire to be both Jewish and democratic.

"Gaza cannot be held on to forever," said Mr Sharon on Monday in an address to the country. "Over 1 million Palestinians live there, and they double their numbers with every generation."

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:43 AM

How Old Friends Of Israel Gave $14 Million To Help The Palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:50 AM

I am for the disengagement, but it is not the time to be rejoicing or gloating. Try a little dignity.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 01:59 PM

I agree with you, Le Scaramouche.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 02:26 PM

I agree that it's no time for rejoicing, though for Palestinian neighbours of the settlements it must be a great relief to no longer be on the front line, and to be able to walk out of their homes in the evening or go up on their rooftop balconies without fear of snipers or of stray bullets. Or bulldozers.

But the whole thing is a tragedy. And the heart of the tragedy is that the two peoples have been unable to find a way to share the whole of the Holy Land between them.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 02:28 PM

"But the whole thing is a tragedy. And the heart of the tragedy is that the two peoples have been unable to find a way to share the whole of the Holy Land between them."

Quite so.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,sorfingers
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 07:01 PM

Dignity! my Oirish rearend; the Pals will turn it into yet another pile of useless sand, while the Israelis would have made it into a prosperous 'JOB CREATING' economy for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: bobad
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 07:15 PM

Raise a glass to Mort Zuckerman.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: jpk
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 07:43 PM

the jews moving out will stop nothing,the fanatics in the mid east will not be happy until they have achieved there ststed goal[probaly will not be happy then either]and that being the total destruction of the jews as a people[they wish to finish what hitler and others before and after him have started]don'nt believe it,check the history of this 'disput'.
have a nice day anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 08:23 PM

People generally tend to see the history they know is there before they check it. And ignore the stuff that doesn't match their preconceptions.

A term like "check it" rather gives the game away. It rather implies going through the record, ticking off the points that fit.

A bit like going through a tune and picking out a particular note and adding up the number of times it occurs,and then saying it must be the key note. That's not the same as trying to understand how the tune goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: jpk
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 08:26 PM

no,i leave it for you to choose the points,iwill not sit here and post only points i pick to prove my point.it is there in the history.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:14 PM

Considering the fact that, as more than one person has noted in this thread, Jews were living in the area for quiet a long time before the Europeans showed up, and the pretty undeniable fact that the "Arabs" did NOT kill them all off in ALL of that time, and considering the fact that they certainly had the means to do so during that time, I think we can safely say that any claims that this has been their aim all along (or even that it is their aim now) are total bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:15 PM

*quite* a long time

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:18 PM

CarolC,

So you claim that the Arabs in genneral, and the Palestinians in particular, are liars? They SAY that that is their goal, thewy teach that in their schools, and they did render the West bank Judenfrei after 1948.... I guess we should not believe them.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:28 PM

I think that you are just repeating some of the anti-Palestinian hype that you've been told, beardedbruce . There are Jews living in Palestinian villages in the "occupied territories" right now, as I type this, who are not being harmed in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:29 PM

Who were not there between 1948 and 1967.

But I still refer to the textbooks used in Palestinian schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:32 PM

Yes, and that lie about the Palestinian textbooks has been debunked. You are the one who is being taught to hate through these kinds of lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:59 AM

The trouble is, when people know "the truth" to start with, any attempt to examine and explore the actual records and to establish the facts are going to be dismissed as obsessional, as Carol has experienced.

It is a complicated story, and there has been many wrong things done on both sides - but I do not think any genuinely objective person can escape the conclusion that in the relationships between Zionists and Palestinians over the years the balance of injustice has been carried out by and on behalf of the newcomers. That's really got nothing to do with Zionism as such - it is something which has generally been the case in all cases where technologically advanced societies have established overseas colonies.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:05 AM

It's probably worth noting that, with Jews, Arabs, Palestinians, and many others in the area from several hundred BC right to the present day, many of the Palestinians will actually be descended from Jews who intermarried at such times when it was relatively easy to do so (like it is now in the west).

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 11:06 AM

Or whose Jewish ancestors converted to another religion at some point in the last 2000 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 11:13 AM

Or perhaps more accurately, to a different variety of what is essentially the same religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 03:36 PM

http://www.edume.org/reports/1/report.htm



Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace



Founded in 1998, CMIP examines the content of school textbooks used in the Middle East, to determine whether children are being taught to accept and recognize the right of the "other" to exist. It is our belief that education should be utilized to encourage an attitude of tolerance, pluralism, and democracy, and to promote peaceful means of solving conflicts.

As a non-profit, non-political organization, our purpose is to identify what is being taught in the schools with regard to recognition and acceptance of the "other" by drawing on the text itself, rather than the interpretation of it. Pioneers in the field of textbook analysis, CMIP endeavors to present a clear picture of how different countries instruct and educate their youth with regard to different religions, societies, cultures, democratic values and the "other".



What's New?



In June 2005 CMIP presented its most recent report on the Palestinian National Authority textbooks for grades 5 and 10. Published in 2004, these are the latest in the series of autonomous textbooks published by the Ministry of Education, for use in schools throughout the Palestinian National Authority.

.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 03:49 PM

Foundation for Middle East Peace

Democracy, History, and the Contest over the Palestinian Curriculum
A study by Prof. Nathan Brown, Georgetown University

"In 1999 and 2000, I conducted research on the establishment of the new Palestinian curriculum by collecting documents, textbooks, and interviewing Palestinian educators. Since that time, I have continued the research by surveying new textbooks and following discussions of educational issues by Palestinian educators. This research was supported by a Fulbright grant through the United States-Israel Educational Foundation (USIEF) and another grant from the United States Institute of Peace (USIP). The conclusions of the research are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views either of USIEF or USIP.

My research—and the attached paper—focus primarily on the role of democracy in the new curriculum. Nevertheless, I could not ignore the international controversy surrounding Palestinian textbooks and the many claims that they incite violence and racial hatred. I was therefore surprised to find books that were far less incendiary than portrayed; most were perfectly innocuous.

Most accusations against the books are based on reports from the "Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace" (CMIP). Although that organization presents reports that are tendentious and misleading, few independent reviews have been conducted. Therefore CMIP reports--which seek to obscure rather than highlight the very significant changes that have been made--are not frequently challenged. I hope that my own review of Palestinian textbooks can assist those interested in a more impartial assessment...

...Upon assuming responsibility over Palestinian education in 1994, the Palestinian Authority (PA) restored the Jordanian and Egyptian curriculum in their entirety as an interim measure. This included the use of books that contained sharply anti-Israeli and even anti-Semitic material. It is based on these books that the strongest charges have been levied. Criticisms of that decision are fair, but must be viewed in conjunction with the following facts:

* The PA determined from the beginning to replace these books and formed a curriculum development center to draft a new set of books. This decision came not as a response to international pressure but instead was a Palestinian initiative (though some international funding was available). The plan developed by that center has proceeded according to schedule.

* The PA issued a series of National Education books for grades 1-6 to supplement the Egyptian and Jordanian books while the new books were being written. Those books were devoid of any anti-Semitic or anti-Israeli material.

* Oddly, Israel allowed the offensive Jordanian books to be used in the East Jerusalem schools but barred the innocuous PA-authored books, probably fearful that use of the PA books would be an implicit recognition of sovereignty.

* The new curriculum is now going into effect. The first and sixth grade textbooks were introduced in 2000. The second and seventh grade books were introduced in 2001. Books for the remaining grades will be introduced two at a time until the entire school system has switched over.

In short, the PA should be credited with removing racist and anti-Semitic material from the curriculum, not for maintaining it. And international assistance has supported replacement of the offensive material, not its composition."

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: The Curator
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 04:39 PM

CarolC, You just get better by the post. A credit to this site.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 04:47 PM

Palestinian textbooks: Where is all that 'incitement'?

Roger Avenstrup International Herald Tribune

Saturday, December 18, 2004

"Jerusalem - Palestinian textbooks contain incitement to hatred of Israel, right? Both President George W. Bush and President Bill Clinton have said so. Zionist groups constantly lobby European foreign ministries to stop support for Palestinian textbooks on that basis, and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon affirmed it at a recent Likud party meeting.

Detailed analyses of the textbooks have been done by research institutes. The U.S. Consulate General in Jerusalem commissioned studies from the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information (IPCRI), and in Europe the Georg Eckert Institute facilitated research. Research papers have also been published in international fora such as the Hebrew University's Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, the Palestine-Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture, and presented at the Oslo Coalition on Freedom of Religion or Belief.

At the political level, a U.S. Senate subcommittee on Palestinian education and the Political Committee of the European Parliament have both held hearings on the matter. No country's textbooks have been subjected to as much close scrutiny as the Palestinian.

The findings? It turns out that the original allegations were based on Egyptian or Jordanian textbooks and incorrect translations. Time and again, independently of each other, researchers find no incitement to hatred in the Palestinian textbooks.

The European Union has issued a statement that the new textbooks are free of inciting content and the allegations were unfounded. The IPCRI 2003 report states that the overall orientation of the curriculum is peaceful and does not incite to hatred or violence against Israel and the Jews, and the 2004 report states that there are no signs of promoting hatred toward Israel, Judaism or Zionism, nor toward the Western Judeo-Christian tradition or values."

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:08 PM

Sorry if I re-hash some of the above, but this being a very long thread I may have overlooked a few things and am repeating them. But---a brief history (of recent time):   

    1 Gaza:   Under Egyptian control until the 1967 war that not started by Israel.   Did the Egyptians offer the Palestinians a state there---NO.   
       Israel never intended to hang on to Gaza--merely use it as a bargaining chip w/ the Arab nations. The mistake was in encouraging the settlements.   Doing the right thing now does cause grief amongst those who were encouraged to go there, but one has to admit to a higher moral posture by Israel in working for peace

2)   Israeli terrorists:---One isolated incident---and tragic. The man was, I believe, promptly arrested.

3)   Jerusalem:   How quickly it is forgotten---perhaps intentionally so---that the city was off limits to Jews when it was in Arab hands. Once it came under Israeli control the city was open to all and jointly patrolled w/ Jordanian police.   All holy sites were respected--including Arab. Would that such a thing had occurred prior to Israeli getting control---also a thing that came about, fortuitously, I add, at the Arab instigation hostilities once again.

So---just a brief history to clear up some of the comments by a few folks here---mostly one--who always manage forget or fail to mention historical facts that do not line up with their pre-conceived and biased notions.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:27 PM

Quite a few incidents of Israeli terrorism. Not just one.

The Palestinians did not start the 1967 war, and yet they are the only ones who are being punished for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:40 PM

BTW, until about three years ago, all of my "pre-conceived and biased notions" were very much in line with those of people like Bill H, since I received the very same anti-Arab, anti-Palestinian indoctrination as he received while growing up.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:25 PM

Terrorism has taken a different form on both sides.

The essential thing about terrorism is that it involves the use of violence against non-combatants as a way of promoting some kind of political or quasi-political agenda.

Usinmg tta definition of terrorism it is apparentn that freelance terrorism, not carried out by agents of the official authorities has been more characteristic of the Palestinians, andn that official terrorism, carried out by agents of the official authorities, has been more characteristic of the Israelis.

But when it comes to the actual numbers of people of all ages killed - including children - and property destroyed, the balance has been very much on one side. Once again, this is in no way peculiar to Israel or to Zionism, it is what typically happens in colonial wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:26 PM

Here we go again--Carol.

First--do not presume to know the indoctrination I rcvd whilst growing up. My history is a lot more complex than that--and more involved w/those years that encompossed the war years and the founding of Israel.

In fact I am not "indoctrinated" ---as you seem to be. Perhaps, "educated", "open minded", or "seeing a historical perspective" might be a better phrase---yours is confrontational. But--as you admit--you were "indoctrinated".

"Quite a few incidents of Israeli terrorism"--we were only speaking of Gaza earlier---yes, few fanatics that were promptly arrested (brought to justice) or had killed themselves.

No one claimed that the Palestinians started the 1967 war. The Arab nations did--at the behest of Nassar of Egypt. Until that time the Palestinians in Gaza were---as said--under Egyptian control--and a harsh control it was. Egyptians, you should know, are not Arabs.

Egypt and Jordan have--for want of a better phrase--buried the hatched (thankfully not in each other's craniums) and together they have come to a detente that benefits all. Would the other Arab nations felt the same. Palestinians have a real problem---their brethren want no part of them. That is tragic.   

How did it come about that Jordan and Egypt have this detente---think "strength" on Israel's part prior to the wars and to Sadat's willingness to resolve an untenable situation.

Your earlier note about the Arabs not demolishing the Jewish population prior to the formation of Israel is not truly accurate---they sure as hell tried. Think of the riots and the killings when the Mufti urged.

Study history and do not presume to know my background ye of such vast knowledge gleaned from Google snippets.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: pdq
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:43 PM

Bill H,

I'm with you on most of this, but are you sure that Egyptians are not Arab? My understanding is that Kurds, Turks, Persians and Berbers are not Arab, but that nearly everyone else is. The Arabs are the "bully boys" of the Middle East and have driven all their rivals out to the margin of "their land", and are now slaughtering Black Africans in Sudan, as well as oppressing Berbers in Algeria and Morocco. Here is a brief statement on the subject:


"Pan-Arabism   
Related: International Organizations


general term for the modern movement for political unification among the Arab nations of the Middle East. Since the Ottoman Turks rose to power in the 14th cent., there have been stirrings among Arabs for reunification as a means of reestablishing Arab political power. At the start of World War I, France and Great Britain, seeking allies against the German-Turkish alliance, encouraged the cause of Arab nationalism under the leadership of the Hashemite Sherif Husayn ibn Ali , a descendant of Muhammad. As ruler of Mecca and a religious leader of Islam, he had great influence in the Arab world, an influence that continued with his two sons, Abdullah and Faisal ( Faisal I of Iraq). From the 1930s, hostility toward Zionist aims in Palestine was a major rallying point for Arab nationalists.     The movement found official expression after World War II in the Arab League and in such unification attempts as the Arab Federation (1958) of Iraq and Jordan, the United Arab Republic , the Arab Union (1958), the United Arab Emirates , and the Arab Maghreb Union (see under Maghreb ). The principal instrument of Pan-Arabism in the early 1960s was the Ba'ath party , which was active in most Arab states, notably Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Yemen. Gamal Abdal Nasser of Egypt, who was not a Ba'athist, expressed similar ideals of Arab unity and socialism.

    The defeat of the Arabs in the Arab-Israeli War of 1967 and the death (1970) of Nasser set back the cause of Pan-Arabism. In the early 1970s, a projected merger between Egypt and Libya came to nought. However, during and following the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, the Arab states showed new cohesion in their use of oil as a major economic and political weapon in international affairs. This cohesion was fractured by the signing of the Camp David accords between Egypt and Israel and by the Iran-Iraq War . Pan-Arabist rhetoric was used by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein in an attempt to stir opposition the UN coalition forces during the Persian Gulf War , but many Arab nations joined the anti-Iraq coalition."

(copy 'n' paste, reproduced without permission)

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:50 PM

http://www.betar.co.uk/articles/betar1057183655.php

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/Israel/palestinians_teach.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/578102/posts

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:50 PM

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=14902

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 07:03 PM

By definition, PDQ, they are African.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM

Actually the 1967 war was initiated by Israel, in a preemptive strike. The same ws true in 1956. Israel has always argued that if they'd waited the other side would have in fact attacked, which is the logic behind preemptive strikes. But it was in fact Israel who opened hostilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 07:15 PM

Bill H, don't keep trying to blame the Mufti on the Palestinians generally. We both know who appointed him to that postion (against the wishes of the majority of Palestinians).

The fact that you continue to blame the Palestinians for things over which most of them never had any control, and you continue to try to justify their continued captivity using these things is proof enough that you have been endoctrinated.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 07:16 PM

When looking historically at the issue, there have been switches in power between different religious and ethnic groups in that region for an extremely long time. Years would go by peacefully when groups lived together no problem. Then years would come with taxation upon the those that weren't in power by those that were. And then war pursued and this cycle continued and still continues. When the nation of Israel was carved from the surrounding countries, many people were displaced, left homeless in a place that had been their homes. While researching this for a thesis, I was shocked and still am at the apparent lack of concern for the people living in the disputed areas. And today I'm still aggrevated by the situation. While I wish all those originally displaced could return to their old homes, I realize that isn't necessarily realistic and so I've become concerned about the Israelis living there currently. My opinion echoes that of many on the board when I believe that the returning of land to Palestine has been a long time in coming and it something that should happen. At the same time, it's very difficult for me to see and read about people being cleared from their homes because control is being restored to Palestine. Give power back, absolutely. But if those people chose to remain in their homes, they should be allowed, knowing that there are consequences that may follow. I even understand that maybe the Israeli feels they are protecting those citizens by dragging them from their homes, but if those people are willing to stay and live in Palestine and face what is to come, they should be allowed. It reminds me too much of the removal of Catholics from their homes in the North of Ireland, having been "encouraged" to move. If people are willing to try to live in renewed Palestinian lands, wish them luck after informing them of the possibilities that await them. Let them determine their own future without Sharon getting his already bloodied hands on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 07:24 PM

So, please someone, anyone, inform me the purpose behind their removal as explained by the Israeli government. Was it something asked for by the Palestinians? I'm hoping to be able to get over this issue because it just makes me angry, so hopefully any information you can give to me will help. Thank-you.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: pdq
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 07:58 PM

Epona,


1,500,000 Arabs in Gaza

       8,200 Jews

game, set, match

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 08:20 PM

Epona---you may well have hit the nail on the proverbial head. In a proper and caring world it would work.    Unfortunately, given today's circumstances, I doubt it would. I wish it were so. It would be the perfect solution. It may well be that given that option--and hoping for open mindedness on both sides it could work. There were some philanthropists here in the U S (from the Jewish community) that raised 14 million dollars to buy and preserve the greenhouses so that the Palestinians could take them rather than have them destroyed by the settlers or the govt.   A right and courageous step.


And---Carol---as usual a diatribe with no basis in fact. Mufti---you tell us who appointed this person.   Do I blame Palestinians---read my posting---their brethren who want no part of these poor souls---and who instigated every incursion. 1948-9 and on.

As to your spelling---well, I am open minded---indoctrinated---unless you are having a problem with endocrine glands and they are filled with some strange fluid---then, perhaps, they are endocrintated.

Get well soon.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 09:33 PM

pdq and Bill H -

Thanks for reply. In a perfect world, so many things would be different. If the settlers are willing to stay and live in the land handed back over to the Palestinians though, whether there are 1,500,000 or 1500 Arabs in Gaza, let them stay as long as they realize what it is they may face.

Though, pdq, I did like the "game, set, match". It does tend to sum up the situation!

Thanks again.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Aug 05 - 11:55 PM

Mufti---you tell us who appointed this person.   Do I blame Palestinians---read my posting---their brethren who want no part of these poor souls---and who instigated every incursion. 1948-9 and on.

Herbert Samuel appointed Haj Amin al-Husseini to the position of Mufti even though al-Husseini's opposition received more votes from the Palestinian leadership than he. The Palestinian leadership considered al-Husseini to be a thug, and with good reason. Samuel had him released from prison where he was serving time for inciting riots and appointed him to the post of Mufti.

al-Husseini didn't just kill Jews. He also killed many moderate Arabs as well. And the Palestinians have been punished for the things done by this man ever since. Even though it was not a Palestinian, but a British Jew who appointed him to this position, and even though the Palestinians didn't want him. If you don't like the things done by the Mufti, you have one of your own co-religionists to thank for them. Stop blaming the Palestinians for that one.

And to try to justify the atrocious treatment of the Palestinians by Israel by blaming them for the way other Arab countries have treated them is about as absurd as it can possibly get. If your neighbor was beating his wife, would you go and beat her too, just on principle? Well, it wouldn't surprise me if you did. But the police and the courts wouldn't take a very kind view of that sort of behavior.

And the Palestinians did not instigate any incursions. And yet you think it is perfectly acceptible to punish them for what others are supposed to have done. Do you think it would be right for someone to punish you for what Herbert Samuel did, just because you are (were, in Samuel's case) Jewish? Of course not. And yet you advocate doing exactly that to the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 04:12 AM

I think it should be pointed out that Gaza is approximately one hundredth of the area of the original Palestine----

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:47 AM

Palestinians...who instigated every incursion....

Rather the same way the First Americans instigated every incursion against the subsequent Americans...

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 07:34 PM

OK==let us get our quotes straight here:

Incursions----I said Arabs (Arab nations) not Palestinians. Try for accuracy folks.

Mufti---I don't care who appointed him. He caused the bloodbath.

Now--Carol=-=-as usual you step into the gutter---"co-religionist", "my indoctrination", and other such slanders.

When you twist the quotes to suit your ends you are about as good as debating as Elmer Fudd.   

As to punishing Palestinians---I, nor anyone I know, wants to punish them. They were, and are, sadly, pawns that were used by the various Arab nations for their agendas. Had they (ARABS)(cap letters so you do not misunderstand---or misquote in your usual style---not started this traging ball rolling after the UN declarion (l940s) none of this would be happening.

NOw--Carol===let me write 4 letters---ABCD---see if you can misquote that. Do you think you can change that to WXYZ---here comes the Lone Ranger.


Bill Hahn

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 08:58 PM

Incursions----I said Arabs (Arab nations) not Palestinians. Try for accuracy folks.

Yes, I understand that. But you are trying to justify punishing the Palestinians for what was done by other groups of Arabs. If you have a problem with what those other groups of Arabs have done, take it up with them. But stop trying to justify punishing the Palestinians for things that have been done by others.

Mufti---I don't care who appointed him. He caused the bloodbath.

This is true. But it wasn't a problem that was created by the majority of Palestinians. So stop trying to justify punishing them because of something over which they had no control.

Now--Carol=-=-as usual you step into the gutter---"co-religionist", "my indoctrination", and other such slanders.

Gutter? Slander? There is nothing gutterish or slanderous about anything I have said. You are holding all people of Arab and Palestinian ancestry responsible for the acts of some Arabs and some Palestinians, but when it is pointed out to you that some of the people who belong to the group you identify with have contributed to the problems that they are facing in the Middle East, you call it slander.

Well, at least, unlike you, I don't believe in holding all members of any group responsible for the actions of only some members of those groups.

And if you don't like people pointing out the fact that it was someone who belongs to the group you identify with who is responsible for the blood bath created by the appointment of Haj Amin al-Husseini to the position of Mufti, stop using him as an excuse for mistreating the Palestinians. And that is what you are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 09:43 PM

Let me see if I understand you---you are not slanderous in citing my "co-religionists"---who I have nothing to do with and care not a whit about.   You still say I beliee in punishing Palestinans for things done by their brethren. I do not know where you come up with that---except in your own rather small and narrow thing you call a mind.


Let me see--are you Christian? SHould I hold you responsible for the Inquisition--or other such horrors? I don't. You are too young to be a buddy of Torquimada. But, bet you would have like him.

Frankly---discourse with you, once you enter a topic, is fruitless---who said that a closed mind is like a cellar made of wood with closed doors that only attracts termites?   Probably me.   

Best to get an exterminator so that---as the old musical says---lets the sun shine in

Now---feel free to fly to the Middle East and pronounce your views in the most militant and narrow ways you know---one side will surely love you. Perhaps that is what you need---there must be a song about "Militant Love"---


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:12 PM

There really is a lot to be said in favour of trying to carry on an argument without trying to be offensive to the person we are arguing with. Or responding in kind, if we feel we've been offended.

"You are too young to be a buddy of Torquimada. But, bet you would have like him. Clearly the aim is to provoke Carol into lashing back in the same way, which would then entitle Bill H to see it as confirming how unreasonable she was being. And no doubt he'd point to soemthing she said which he took as a reason to be provoked...

This way of carrying on a discussion is a kind of parody of the way in which this conflict in Israel/Palestine has been fought out in real life, but with insults instead of atrocities as the coinage.

School playground stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:00 PM

Let me see if I understand you---you are not slanderous in citing my "co-religionists"---who I have nothing to do with and care not a whit about.

No... you do not understand me. I did not cite your "co-religionists". I cited ONE man who belongs to a group with whom you have identified yourself many times here in the Mudcat. And I did so, specifically for the purpose of showing you why YOU shouldn't hold all members of any group responsible for the behavior of only some members of that group, as you have been consistantly doing in your posts to threads like this one.

The fact that you know other people shouldn't be doing that, but you think it's perfectly ok for you to do it shows what a colossal hypocrite you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:03 PM

And no, I am not a Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:07 PM

Well--Carol---farewell on this thread---you paint people with your brush and then when your bigotry is pointed out to you---and your misquotes to further your one sided and narrow opinions you respond with more falsifications of what is said.

It is fine for a tabloid---just don't join a serious debate with people of any intellect.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:12 PM

Best you listen to Dan Schorr on NPR or perhaps read Rich in the NY Times---their brains seem to function and are open minded.

That wa supposed to be in the last---and final ---note on this subject as long as you are on it.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,A Jew
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:14 PM

Typical Mudcat anti-semitism from some Left-wing perverts.

First bus that Hamas blows up, Israel will simply take Gaza back.

This site is being monitored by the Anti-Defamatation League and Israeli intelligence.

Thankfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:18 PM

So, what you're telling me, Bill H, is that it's perfectly ok for you to be prejudiced and to treat people who belong to different groups than you as less than human, but if someone points out the fact that you are doing it, that makes them a bigot.

That is what I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 08:00 AM

The Hell with it !! 1oo !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 08:26 AM

Brave man Leadfingers! I was a bit wary about this one!

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 07:22 AM

Why must they destroy the buildings which exist there now as they pull out? Sems a waste to leave only rubble behind..perhaps they could leave the buildings intact so that the Palestinians are not inheriting a mess? (open mike)

We read over here that the destruction happens in agreement with the Palestinian authority. They have a need for high buildings housing many people and not for bungaloes.


In the last days one could see another instance of abuse of religion for political purposes (settlers in the synagogues). I hate when religion is used as a defense against political decisions wherever it happens. "You cannot do this because it is against our religion" is in my eyes never a valid argument against a democratic decision whether one agrees with the political aim of the group fighting the decision or not.


There is no such thing as Arabic Jews. Arabic is a language. (Le Scaramouche)
It surprises me that you would say that there are no Arabic Jews, Le Scaramouche (Carol)
I said no ARABIC Jews. It's pedantic, but Arabic is a language. (Le Scaramouche) (Le Scaramouche)
Thanks for the clarification, Le Scaramouche (Carol)

It looks more like a repetition to me than a clarification.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:22 AM

Why must they destroy the buildings which exist there now as they pull out? Sems a waste to leave only rubble behind..perhaps they could leave the buildings intact so that the Palestinians are not inheriting a mess?

What you say is true, Wolfgang, but not important.

Israel is withdrawing from Gaza, which would have to happen at some point.

Israel can avoid having Palestinians occupy buildings which people still see as their homes, and flying Palestinian Flags over their synogogues>. Any pictures of that would be like those of the Berlin Wall coming down, or the last helicopter leaving Vietnam, a powerful image summing up a great victory/defeat.

This is why the buildings are coming down. Occupying a patch of rubble may be significant, but it's not iconic.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 03:52 PM

But the sight of those bulldozers flattening the buildings in order to make sure that it was just a patch of rubble that was handed over was pretty iconic. As were pictures of olive plantations being rooted out, and greenhouses destroyed.

Still, at least they made sure there was noone in those buildings before they sent in the bulldozers, which hasn't always been the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: jpk
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:29 PM

heck with it,if you love them so much that you have to make there excuses for them, go live and be one for awhile,and the women can come back and tell us how great it was.
that is if they survive after being disrespectful to some male or other,they still have stones left.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson's Truthful Comments
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:53 PM

CarolC is a piece of dogshit on whole wheat toast.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 01:19 AM

jpk, I would be much more interested in what you have to say if you would go live with them yourself for a while.

There are people from all over the world, some of them women, from all religions - including Jewish, who are currently living in Palestinian villages, in Palestinian homes, to help protect Palestinians from the dangers they face because of the occupation. All of the accounts I have seen about what it is like for those people, living among the Palestinians, have been positive with regard to what the Palestinians themselves are like. Some of the women have even married Palestinian men. They have less positive things to say about what it's like to live under the occupation.

But what an astonishingly un-American thing to say to me, jpk... suggesting that I should have to leave the US for committing the sin of practicing free speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 06:47 AM

Rachel Corrie tried doing what lower case expert jpk suggestes. So did Tom Hurndall.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: jpk
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 10:27 PM

the lawsuit is stupid,like sueing louisville sluger for making the ballbat that a gangbanger killed you with.i am sorry she died,but sueing cat is assanine,next we'll sue god[if you belive]for the sun coming up an causing skin cancer.
and if you don't like my one finger typing,don't read it.
you can go huddle with your victem buddies,always blaming someone or thing else for it all.
and like i said before,it is ok to chop someones head off if you do it in the name of islam[or torch,or stone,etc].

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: jpk
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 10:31 PM

ps mcgrafh,i never claimed to be an expert,i'm just me.
and if you don't like it tough.tell you as i did martin gibson,stuff it.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 12:56 AM

jpk, the Palestinians are not resisting the occupation in the name of Islam. They are resisting the occupation in the name of freedom, liberty, and justice. Those are ideals we value here in the US as well, don't you think?

And not all Palestinians are Muslims. There are Christian Palestinians as well. They also suffer under the occupation. So if you can't get past your burning hatred of Muslims in order to have some compassion for the Palestinians who are Muslim, maybe you can find it in your heart to have some compassion for the Palestinians who are Christian.

Or maybe you're just not the sort of Christian who believes in compassion. That sort of Christian doesn't sound like much of a Christian to me.

BTW, Tom Hurndall was shot in the head by Israeli soldiers while trying to get some children out of the line of fire of those same soldiers. Maybe you think shooting at children is ok, but personally, I don't see much difference between shooting at children and beheading people, in terms of magnitude of badness. But that's just me.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 07:56 AM

CarolC, there is really no such thing as "free speech" here.
Seems like a person can pay dearly for every uttered word.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:24 AM

That may be so, GUEST, 25 Aug 05 - 07:56 AM. But we can pay just as dearly for the words we don't utter, and should.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:34 AM

We have a lot of free speech here in Mudcat. And the freedom to argue, debate and learn. I don't believe in political censorship, but I do think offensive and abusive comments, and the people who make them, such as GUEST,Martin Gibson's Truthful Comments - should be censored from mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 10:45 AM

Freda,

I would certainly agree that some comments ( and people ) should be censored from Mudcat.

As long as I get to make the decision ( sarcasm).


The problem is that I find lies, threats, and abuse to be objectionable, yet most here seem to see no problem with them as long as they are directed at one's opponents.

I do not agree with a number of people here, but I will listen to what they have to say, expecting the same courtesy back.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 12:34 PM

Lest it looks that mistakenly being killed by Israelis is the only danger a woman faces in Palestine:

Killed for the family's honour

There is growing concern among Palestinian human rights workers after the killings of at least six young women in recent months. The murders are described in some quarters as "honour killings". The victims are usually accused of behaving improperly and bringing shame upon their families.

It is an old problem in that region. I don't know whether the book by Souad, Brulee vive is already available in English. The story of a young woman in Westjordanland burnt alive by her cousin for being pregnant. It is interesting to read what she knew about the Jews, BTW, though that is not the theme of the book.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 01:57 PM

Interesting to note that the first woman mentioned was not a Muslim. Many people seem to be under the impression that only Muslims treat women badly. But on the positive side, it's good to see that the Palestinian authorities are taking the problem very seriously. The article in your link suggests that the problem is being made worse by the civil unrest in the territories that has been a byproduct of the occupation. But I have noticed that violence against women tends to increase in any kind of situation in which men are disempowered and disenfranchised, and are humiliated on a daily basis, as they are under this occupation. So to whatever extent you, Wolfgang, and others would use human rights for women as a basis for your position on this issue, I would suggest that ending the occupation would the best way to help Palestinian women.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 02:47 PM

The Gaza example will be vital as Israelis consider the future of their state, which sooner or later will have to contemplate a similar pullback from the West Bank. Jewish settlers there -- particularly those who live beyond the border-like system of fences and walls Israel is constructing -- are subject to the same logic that Mr. Sharon courageously articulated about Gaza: Their dream of holding the land forever is unattainable. As in Gaza, a withdrawal from the West Bank eventually will have to occur whether or not Israel receives any concessions from the Palestinians in return. But Palestinians, too, should have learned something: Israel is capable of making the pragmatic and painful sacrifices necessary for a lasting peace settlement. Palestinians have yet to convincingly demonstrate -- in deeds, as opposed to words -- that they can do the same.


That's why the first response to the question of what comes after Gaza must be: Gaza. The Palestinian Authority must prove that it is capable of setting up and leading a civilized democratic state. That means disarming Islamic extremist movements even while giving those groups the opportunity to compete peacefully in elections; channeling development aid quickly into labor-intensive development projects; and using force without hesitation against any attempt to use Gaza as a base for attacks against Israel.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/24/AR2005082401902.html

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:11 PM

Guest 25 Aug 8:45---    Many comments are interesting and valid---and, there is free speech here. Unfortunately some posters---with one track --alleged-- minds (you know who you are ) make comments that are---to paraphrase dear old Will Shakespeare---"....full of sound and fury signifying NOTHING.

Sorry to ad my .02 fuel (though given the oil problem make it .05) to a truly air polluting and wasteful cyber-fire.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:34 AM

My my, Carol, your debating style doesn't help your position.

- You make sweeping generalisations without any foundation (Many people seem to be under the impression that only Muslims treat women badly. I have not read a single post yet taking this position. Would you consider it fair to read something like that about you?)

- you make assumptions about motives (your burning hatred of Muslims)

- you stereotype and lump together in a way you would criticise if someone else did it (to whatever extent you, Wolfgang, and others would use human rights for women as a basis for your position on this issue)

I provide a link I consider interesting in this discussion just to restore a bit the balance in this discussion and you start stereotyping and lumping together very different Mudcatters who may share nothing more than that they do not always agree with you.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:54 AM

Another link some may find interesting though it's theme is much broader than the discussion in this thread:

Gender, sexuality and the criminal laws in the Middle East and North Africa: a comparative study

penal laws in most Arab countries treat women differently from men...based on the definition of their sexual roles...
Penal codes clearly discriminate against women and contradict international human rights norms ...
a useful resource for comparative analysis, and to equip women's rights activists with facts.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:56 AM

I will add to that congratulations. The treatment of the palestinains has been a disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 12:27 PM

-You make sweeping generalisations without any foundation (Many people seem to be under the impression that only Muslims treat women badly. I have not read a single post yet taking this position. Would you consider it fair to read something like that about you?)

I see we have a language problem again, Wolfgang.

Look up (in an English dictionary) the word, "seem" (hint, this means, in the context in which I used it, "gives the impression of", and yes, there have been quite a few people even here in the Mudcat who have given me this impression).

- you make assumptions about motives (your burning hatred of Muslims)

And so do you, Wolfgang. Quite frequently, in fact. Consider practicing what you preach.

- you stereotype and lump together in a way you would criticise if someone else did it (to whatever extent you, Wolfgang, and others would use human rights for women as a basis for your position on this issue)

Language again... try to find a definition of the phrase "to whatever extent", and "would". (Hint - when put together, these words do not stereotype or make any assumptions. When used in this way, the phrase ensures that the thing being discussed is only applied to people who do the thing being discussed. If you don't, for instance, use human rights for women as a basis for your position on that issue, by virtue of that phrase, "to the extent that", and "would", my words do not apply to you.

I recommend becoming much more proficient in the English language before making these kinds of criticisms.

I provide a link I consider interesting in this discussion just to restore a bit the balance in this discussion and you start stereotyping and lumping together very different Mudcatters who may share nothing more than that they do not always agree with you

I have shown that because of your misinterpretation of my words, this statement by you is incorrect, and is, in fact, an example of exactly the sort of thing you are criticizing me for in your second point (making assumptions about motives). I await your apology.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 02:42 PM

BTW, Wolfgang, had I been assuming that "you...would use human rights for women as a basis for your position on this issue" (at least to some extent), I would have been giving you the benefit of the doubt and not making a negative assumption. I would hope you would at least consider the human rights of Palestinian women when determining what your position is on the issue of the occupation. Especially since you are posting things that critcise Palestinians on that issue. To do otherwise would be hypocritical. But I know better than to make that kind of assumption about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:23 PM

Carol C,
You mean someone has disagreed with you, and you choose to believe it is due to a linguistic problem. Once they understand you, everyone will agree. Is that what you mean?, as that is what you seem to be saying.

Ad homonim arguements are the last resort. Don't you have something better?

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:59 PM

Not at all, Bunnahabhain. Wolfgang and I have had this problem before. Since he was disagreeing with something I did not actually say, I chose to assume that it was a language issue and not a deliberate attempt to mischaracterize my words, or a lack of ability to communicate based on any sort of lack of intelligence. I tried to assume the least unflattering explanation for his misrepresentation of my words because I knew how much he would appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:00 PM

The problem is that I find lies, threats, and abuse to be objectionable, yet most here seem to see no problem with them as long as they are directed at one's opponents.

Personally I find it much more objectionable when someone who is arguing from the same direction as me starts mouthing off in that kind of way. When someone in the other corner, so to speak, does it, there's a sense in which I recognise it as a self-inflicted wound.

I'd much rather not see it happening at all, because it messes up discussions, and I value good discussions, but if anybody is going to do it, I'd rather it was an adversary.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:04 PM

Sad to say--to repeat---"...sound and fury signifying nothing". Shakespeare knew you all those many years ago. What prescience.   

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:23 PM

Bill H, you really shouldn't be making those kinds of gratuitous personal attacks on McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 01:28 AM

as if you did not know who that was intended for---so clever ---as always---Carol

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 02:00 AM

Gratuitous personal attacks on me? Same thing, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: jpk
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 03:58 PM

dear carol,i really don't hate muslims or any one else mostly,however,i do detest fanatics of almost anything.
i am sorry that you may find some of what i believe,not to be to your liking.i am highly opininated in my believes,and not much given to change.
also i do not care for people who willingly belong to or associate with groups given to proffessed hatred and extermination of others[the plo,hamas,etc]i.e. the palistinians.
also,forgive the vain of the earlier post[not meaning],after rereading it,i relised how mg it appeared.an i regret that.
anywho,have a great day an bless all.
i also left out my normal closing,sorry bout that.you know how us southern transplants can be.
god day all.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 04:37 PM

Pedantic point: "Sound and fury signifying nothing" isn't really Shakespeare speaking as himself, they are the words he puts into Macbeth's mouth as a comment on life the universe and everything, to indicate that he is at his lowest point and completely given over to despair. Not really particularly relevant in this context.

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:13 PM

Pedantic point #2: "Life" being a metaphor for a certain poster most aptly described in the last two lines of your post above---and it is not you whom I used Shakespeare to describe.

By the way---different topic (trivia)---do you know which Shakespearian play is not to be mentioned by name by actors for fear of bad luck---it is only referred to as The _________ Play.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:27 PM

Pedantic point #3:
How do you pronounce '_________'

The question should be, I suggest`: Which Shakespearian blah blah blah, is called 'The Scottish Play'?

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:28 PM

Ah, but since I'm posting in my own name here, I wouldn't count as an actor. (Nor would Bill or Carol, for the same reason.)

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:28 PM

... or 'referred to as...', to be precise...

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:35 PM

Thanks for the clarification, jpk.

The point that I am asking you to consider is this one... not all Palestinians are guilty of what you are condemning all of them for when you say "the Palestinians". Some of them are, but the ones who are not, don't deserve your condemnation. That's a very important point, I think, and one that I believe a person who is genuinly Christian in his or her beliefs can understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 10:39 PM

Guest: That would have been a giveaway since McGrath had mentioned the name of the play----do you think since I am on the radio I should say The Scottish Play for fear of bad luck were I to say the name---dare I utter it---Macbeth.   

Now--off to the dry cleaner to get out that damned spot.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:09 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/14/AR2005091402169.html

"The Gaza withdrawal should have been a step toward an Israeli-Palestinian settlement; instead, it could become a leap away from it. The big winner so far is Hamas, which rejects Israel's existence. In Israel, continuing disorder will give a boost to hard-line challengers to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the architect of the Gaza evacuation. As it is, Mr. Sharon probably will reiterate in an address to the United Nations today that Israel will consider no more territorial withdrawals or other concessions to the Palestinians until militant groups are dismantled. Unless Palestinian and Egyptian leaders take immediate steps to fulfill their commitments in Gaza, they will bear the responsibility for a new stalemate -- or worse -- in the Middle East."

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 11:45 AM

http://www.semitism.net/node/221?PHPSESSID=19e791b42c334a3dbaf3d9a56a3fc696