BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 04:18 PM

I is a bit strange to hear the traditional English cry of - ITS NOT CRICKET - coming from Australians.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: John O'L
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 08:34 AM

Paul -
The Shambles asked for our thoughts on Ponting's outburst. I wasn't going to be the one to introduce the subject, but seeing the question printed there, I had to answer. Couldn't help myself. I'm not that strong.

What would you expect me to say? That he should cop it sweet when he sees the opposition fast bowlers going off for a cup of tea and a backrub after every spell, because there's no rule explicitly preventing it?

"The English have to remain gentlemanly, and stick to the traditions. It's up to others to introduce sledging, aggressive appealing..."
Am I to understand then, that in your opinion Fletcher's use of subs equates with the those things?

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 07:32 AM

Thnking back to the start of the series. There were two members of the England team who had their cobmments - which were reported in the newspapers - much critised. This mainly before the match by the Australian team and especially after the Lords performance - by just about everyone.

The main feeling was that they perhaps should confine their talking to on the pitch - purely by their performance.

After their fine stand in the win at Trent Bridge - there is perhaps a little irony in the fact that the two players concerned were - Hoggard and Giles.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 04:34 AM

What IS interesting is that the subs aren't top notch players

I'd imagine they are top notch fielders even if they aren't top notch batsmen or bowlers. I don't know anything about Pratt except that he seemed pretty able. Trevor Penny is another sub they have used. He is one of the best fielders in the country. I remember watching a game a few years back, a semi final in one of the cups - Glamorgan vs Waricks - more than one player in that game perished to his throwing...

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 04:25 AM

It's an odd one.

The one that caused Ponting to blow his top was genuine enough under any circumstances with Simon Jones injured and England have done nothing in any substitution that breaches the rules/playing conditions for the series.

That said, I agree that it seems that Ponting had issues with this long before his runout. His annoyance at being run out only seems to have brought something he was concerned about to the boil.

Regardless of the playing conditions, I do find the practice of routinely taking your bowlers off for short breaks questionable in terms of the spirit of the game.

As a side issue, what do others think of this substitute who can bat or bowl and "power play" in some one day games? I don't like it but there again, I'm enough of a dinasour not to like squads of subs and changes of personel for tactical reasons in any game. To me, you put the team you have picked out and short of injuries, those players play right through.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 04:21 AM

I see, John. The English have to remain gentlemanly, and stick to the traditions. It's up to others to introduce sledging, aggressive appealing, dissent, war paint and all the other things that 40 years ago would have had their own captain asking them to leave the field for.

I don't think that Fletcher invented substitution, people have been resting bowlers for years now. What IS interesting is that the subs aren't top notch players, and I'm glad Pratt got his moment of international glory.

Was Ponting home? No. Was it a good throw? Yes. Was Jones injured? Yes. Should Pratt have deliberately missed? Come on.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: John O'L
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 03:59 AM

It seems that Ponting has been upset about this for quite some time, but undoubtedly getting run out contributed to his distress.

As I understand it, the way Fletcher has used the subs this season is a departure from how they have previously been used, and resembles the interchange bench at a Rugby League game. I have always thought that this misuse of the interchange bench lowered the standard of Rugby League (if that's not a tautology or something), and I don't think it is within the spirit of cricket as I understand the game.

I would be very disappointed if it became an accepted feature of test cricket.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 03:56 AM

Does Ricky Ponting have a point - with his complaints about the England subsitute fielders? Or is he just upset that his running between the wickets was too slow and he was run-out by one of them?

From what I can see - what the England team is doing - is perfectly within the rules and which his team could equally exploit. The only difference is that the substitute fielders that are available to Ponting are the 'donkeys' (in fielding terms anyway) that he has selected to bring on tour.

Were the series taking place in Australia - they would have a wider choice of substitute fielders and the Endland team - as the touring side - would be limited to those selected to tour. A situation that I am sure he would not complain too much about. A case of swings and roundabouts?

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:24 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:24 PM

Oh. You said that. I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:22 PM

Absolutely! This is the most exciting series I can remmember. It has breathed new life into cricket, and every day brings a brand new uncertainty, usually one you would never have predicted. I don't think there's ever been a series like this one. Brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:57 PM

But isn't that the joy of this series. The tension and the uncertainty of the outcome are great (even if you may not feel so great at the time). But because things are so uncertain and even when the result is known - the small differences between the sides and the various turning points in the games - mean that there are endless discussions and speculations to be made.

I am not sure that there has ever been series quite like this one. Perhaps 1983 was as exciting but the scoring rates in this series make it quite different game altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:43 PM

Of course you're right Jon, I thought after my last post - It's all just idle speculation as anything is possible, as it has been all season.
Just keeping the banter going - it is a BS thread after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:11 PM

Could go either way John. I had thought the last test would be the decider where one team really got on top of the other all the way through but that wasn't to be...

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:48 PM

Yes I see your point, Shambles. For this fortnight or so the Ashes certainly are in English hands, but you must also see mine surely? If we do go to the Oval with Simon Jones out and McGrath in then we must surely be looking at more than just the possibility of an Aust. win?

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:43 PM

Dare I point out that two narrow wins - against a pasting - still (at the moment) mean that England are one game up - and unless the Australian team can come-up with another pasting or indeed a narrow win at the oval - England will take the Ashes?

No I had better not.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:23 PM

Dare I point out that neither of the English wins have been anywhere near the shellacking that they should have been.
In fact they only just squeaked them in,whereas the Australian win was the shellacking that it should have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:57 PM

If Simon Jones is unfit and Glen MacGrath is fit - an Australian win is certainly possible on the Oval pitch.

My plan A is to pray for rain (even if I am also on holiday at the time).

The rate that both sides score runs - without stoppages for rain/ bad light etc - a draw seems as unlikely as it is now desirable....

England might just have to win this test too.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: Hrothgar
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:29 AM

Plan B is a HUUUUUUGGGGGE win in the Fourth Test.

Plan C is, um, er, ah, ...... does not bear contemplation.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:19 AM

What we want now is a very narrow win to Australia in the Fift Test, just to drive the poor old Poms crazy with frustration.

It might be a good idea for you to have a PLAN B........

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:17 AM

Well with Geriant Jones, I think his wicket keeping errors are costing more than the runs he is making and I can't say I was overly impressed with his batting "heroics" in the second innings.

On the other hand, the team do seem to back his ability and are a winning side. The question to me is would you risk upsetting the team, and possibly replace him with someone who fairs no better in the last test? Jones for me just survives on that basis.

Football... As for David James, not before time IMO. He is capable of brilliance but shall we say "Calamity James" suits him. Overall, I think he is a liability. Bring on Robert Green (I have to say that as a Norwich supporter).

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: Hrothgar
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:58 AM

"... as for Australia getting a defendable lead and then bowling England out, I think that must still be in the realms of pure fantasy."

Oooooh, John!!

You don't have the Ashes yet, and I reckon Australia were establishing their psychological dominance at the end.

What we want now is a very narrow win to Australia in the Fift Test, just to drive the poor old Poms crazy with frustration.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: GUEST,Odd shaped balls
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:43 AM

Hull stun Leeds in Challenge Cup

Paul Cooke's late converted try handed Hull a shock 25-24 win over Super League champions Leeds in the Challenge Cup final in Cardiff.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:16 AM

I tend to go with the verdict of Flintoff who stated that there was no debate among his team mates about the wicket-keeping abilities of Jones - but does anyone think that Jones should be dropped?

The way I see it - the individual heroics of Warne and Lee were not enough to enable their team to win and the few lost chances that were made by England's wicket-keeper (and others in the field) were not enough to prevent England from winning.

However, it would probably be fair to say that without these missed chances - the win would have been a lot easier and not caused the nation's supporters - so many bitten nails. But it is a team game after all and the question raised is:

Would the possible increase in wicket-keeping by replacing Jones - make enough difference to set against any possible loss to the quite obvious team spirit, loyalty and fight - that the current team undoubtably have?

I see that David (Calamity) James has not been picked for the England football team's next big match - perhaps he would be a good replacement for Jones?

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 05:52 AM

Another Century !!

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 05:51 AM

And the Great British Rain Making Ceremony didnt work !!

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 05:12 AM

Enjoy it SJ, it might not last long.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:18 AM

It's immaterial. 'What-ifs' and 'Might-have-beens' don't matter a shit. England won and most of the Antipodean Convict Johnnies had faces like smacked arses. Come to think of it, they HAD smacked arses! Come On The Oval! Wooooooooooooo-Hoo!!

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:17 PM

Well, it would have been quite interesting if Simon Jones had to bat. I wonder how he in his 1/2 mobile state would have coped with Bret Lee firing the ball in at speeds of up to 96mph (at least that was the fastest I saw clocked).

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 04:49 PM

Perhaps a word for Giles and Hoggard. They did seem to manage to stay a lot calmer under the pressure exerted by the Australian bowlers than a number of their team's better batsmen appeared to.

They did seem to be the England team's last hope - I am not sure that if either of them had gone - that the result would have been the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 03:23 PM

Yes Shambles a great win, but don`t talk rubbish, the worst losers in the world bar none, please get it right.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 03:12 PM

However loutish English and Scotch football supporters may have been - our teams have always been sporting and lost well. I fact it is toss-up between who loses better between English and Scotch teams. But as Scotch teams have more practice at losing - they probably have the edge.

But perhaps another thread is need on the subject of loutish fans? This one is celebrating a fine sporting contest - being played in a fine spirit (and not whiskey).

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 02:51 PM

Shambles, do open the other eye would you call the louts that attend Englands soccer matches "good sports", detested throughout Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 02:40 PM

The English do usually lead the world and showing the right way to lose well. It was nice to see the Australian team learning from this example - and be given a chance to.

But what a close thing. England very nearly grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory but Warne and (that bugger) Bret Lee certainly helped....Can we have Bret Lee on our side?

But the Australian team since beating England easily in the Lords test - have (if only very marginally) been second best. Roll on the Oval....And now that England only need a draw to win the Ashes - roll on the rain.

No I would really like to see another nail-biter like the last three tests have been - as long as I know in advance - that England are going to win (or not lose).

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 01:36 PM

England win by three wickets. By God I need a beer! What a brilliant performance by the Aussies on the last day, in what looked like a nearly hopeless position. They really went for it and England very nearly fluffed it. Let's hope they keep their nerve better in the last Test. Well done all the same. I am not used to England winning at cricket - especially against Australia. It is a bit like beating New Zealand at rugby or Brazil or Germany at football. It is not supposed to happen and it really feels a bit un British!

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: John O'L
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 01:34 PM

Well done England.

Gave you a fright.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 01:33 PM

Phewwwwwwwwwwwww.

Hard lines to Australia though, they put up an excellent fight today.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 01:16 PM

Another wicket gone. There should be a result by close of play, and the smart money should be on Australia now. What a brilliant performance by them on the last day!

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 01:01 PM

111-6 and Flintoff gone - this is nail biting!

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: John O'L
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 12:48 PM

Pieterson out. Fivefer. (Couldn't sleep)

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 12:07 PM

England can do it. They can send the Ashes back to Australia by close of play tonight. Oh dear - it is beginning to look a bit like the traditional batting collapse, isn't it? Still, it is nice to know there is one thing we are still the masters of!

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:58 AM

4 down now.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:45 AM

The England batsmen could still win this one - for Australia! Let's hope they settle in and take their time. It really would be awful if the traditional batting collapse came about to give Australia the series. Either way, we should at least get a result!

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:18 AM

36 for 2. I don't like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 10:28 AM

129 to win. Should be comfortable...

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 10:18 AM

A lead of 124 now. Any predictions of the size of the final lead?

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 10:04 AM

Nine down now. I bet Lee will take another swing now. Hope he doesn't connect too often.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 10:01 AM

Eight wickets down now - but I will be happier when that Bret Lee is out.

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 09:59 AM

362-8. Shane Warne now has time to practise his bowling action. England have struggled to finish these innings quickly. The last couple of Australian wickets of an innings have both cost over forty runs. This is getting interesting...

Subject: RE: BS: Trent Bridge Test - here we go
From: John O'L
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 08:58 AM

Well Warne has started lashing out, it's 11.00pm here and I'm going to bed. I'll look forward to being amazed in the morning at what has gone on overnight, whatever it is.