BS: My son is expelled from school forever

Subject: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 04:20 PM

Dean has gotten by on his good looks. Any mention of him seems to include a comment about his cuteness etc.
He has never displayed any overt violent tendencies before. Nor has he any innate problems with authority figures but they have one with him. He is mature beyond his years. In fact he initiated a conversation the other day about mortality and how he never wants to grow old. He went on to postulate that he would find it preferable to age backwards. This seemed rather profound for a young man who has just turned five years of age.

Yet he is now permanently expelled from school come Monday.
In my humble opinion he is a victim, a victim of computer error.
For his first 2 months of life we brought him to Pediatric Associates of Wheaton. We found that office so disorganized and confused that we changed pediatricians. Our current Pediatric office claims they do not have Dean's records for those 2 months.

We only have records of his last 14 immunization vaccine shots since he was 2 months old. The confused Pediatric Associate office said their computer hard drive crashed and they can not find any back up disks or hand written files for Dean. They seem to have used this excuse since last March. I can only assume that his records for those 2 months are lost forever.

The School nurse has expelled Dean for insufficient immunization records and her decision has been supported by the principle.
Resolution of the matter is in perpetual limbo. Perhaps a new Montgomery County resolution could be passed or amnesty is granted by the Governor but barring these unlikely events, Dean is never allowed to return to public school.


I suppose I can submit this post as a letter to our local Gazette. Who knows, this kind of zero tolerance intolerance is the kind of fluff piece that might even get national media attention.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: R. Padgett
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 04:33 PM

I dont think we have that sort of problem in the Uk thank god but of anyone knows any different??

Seems to me the US society have lost the plot and permanent expulsion can only lead to further litigation

What sort of society are you fostering in the US??

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Peace
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 04:33 PM

Call the school board immediately.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 04:39 PM

How the hell can you exclude a child for not having certain innoculations? If that were the case in the UK, our schools would be half empty!

I hope this gets sorted... I'd call your school board, the local press, anyone who can bring this shambolic system into the public eye. Were it in the UK, I'd suggest your local MP - would it be your local Congress member?

Good luck!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 04:44 PM

Within my experience, most computer "errors" occur because some nitwit—often a whole string of nitwits—don't take the necessary minute or so it requires to actually sit down at the computer and log in what they're supposed to log in. After I got married, it took me five tries to get my employer's financial department to make the necessary changes in my withholding tax and change the company health insurance coverage to include my wife. I finally had to go to the department manager. She made a couple of phone calls, raised hell and slid a brick under it, and half an hour later, it was fixed.

I don't know how you can resolve the particular problem you have right now, but I think that in the future, I would insist that the doctor, or whomever, give you a paper record, signed and notarized if need be, so you have proof in hand of what should be in the computer.

Both belt and suspenders may not be fashionable, but they do help keep you from falling on your face when, due to circumstances beyond your control, your pants unexpectedly wind up around your ankles.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 05:04 PM

Can't you just have him get the two months of shots again? If not, I'll bet you can get a good lawyer to take the case on contingency.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 05:14 PM

Of course I will will tell Dean that a computer problem is at fault. He understands that from his video games.

There is the fact that the school nurse has declared that Dean is a danger to himself and the entire school population based upon the rules and regulations regarding immunization records.

This nurse has previously complained/denied that my older son would request to use the school health office restroom during the time he was under doctor's care for a stomach problem. Her decision was overturned by the Principal that time.
She also called me to personally tend to Dean at school since it was discovered he had a skid mark in his underwear. (I kid you not)
I was told that they are not allowed to assist in changing underear which we had provided. They are not even allowed to look in underwear. How did they discover the skidmark then?

The problem may be the nurse as well as the direction society is going lately. Good grief, even sunscreen is considered a drug that can send a child home.

My wife says that one solution is to declare ourselves Johovah Witness', since they are excluded from the vaccine regulations.
I would rather declare myself Witness' of the Grand Wazoo of latter day frauds, but my wife still has a valid soultion.

He has had all his shots so I feel that saying we are a certain religious sect is counter productive to the truth of the situation...

but my wife still might have the most efficacious solution.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 05:47 PM

Jack: It depends how long and far the intolerence and "letter of the law" hard line continues. Afterall he is not officially expelled until tommorrow.

This may be a personal policy decision of showing parents who is boss. Last week I had the timerity to request that I observe Dean in class. I was told told they do not allow this due to the disruption it would cause. I was denied my request right up until I used the magic words "my wife asked me to". Then I was allowd under the Principal's escort to peek through the door of his class. It made me wonder if they can see no gender bigotry unless a woman is invloved. I suppose they are worried about estranged couples kidnapping children out of the classroom.

They should be as worried about the lead in their drinking fountains which they put up signs to warn about but do not fix.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:15 PM

Move across a state line. This is just ridiculous. I am not sure they can legally do this. But I'm not a lawyer....and 'my' lawyer is out of town...what state are you in??? Call the Atty Gen for the State...see the County prosecutor before you hire a lawyer. See the Supt of Schools

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:16 PM

He's expelled from further attendance at school and you consider it a problem? Christ! I only wish it had happened to me when I was five years old!!! And I am not kidding.

Have you considered home education, and how much more free an environment that would be for a young mind to grow up in? Again, I wish I had had that option. Have you considered alternative schools, like a Waldorf school perhaps? (I'm not sure if the same problem would come up there, but I doubt it.)

Sounds like a gift from God to me that a kid could be spared going through the lobotomy mill of public school in North America, which does everthing it can to stifle independent thought, subordinate human will to mass regimentation, and shape little future societal slaves for their lives of indentured servitude.

As for the frigging vaccinations, kids would probably be better off without most of them...in my opinion.

But, hey, I'm a radical. Better believe it.

People should be set free to make their own choices with regard to all these things. The social $ySStem pretends to "serve and protect", but all it really does is regiment, deny, and control. For the benefit of what? Money concerns. And not YOUR money concerns, my friend. And not mine either.

The AMA has got you and the schools and the whole damn society by the balls. What a miserable tragedy it all is.

You can plainly see who they think owns your child. Not you. No, sir. The $ySStem owns your child. Just step into line like good little fascists and obey orders...or you will be banished forever. That's a dictatorship, pure and simple. It's mind control.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:20 PM

Your insurance company ought to have a record of having paid for those shots. This should be ample proof that your son received them.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:36 PM

First:

I have a thought - won't your insurance carrier have a record of the immunizations if they paid the pediatrician for those services or reimursed you for them?



second - and totally trivial:

Jehovah's Witnesses do not forbid the use of vaccinations. In fact, they don't actually forbid or permit any one medical procduere regardless of what you read. They have reccomendations based on biblical interpretation. Splitting hairs I guess ..but there you have it. Vaccines are not an issue with them.

I realize you are being facetious, but - I have many friends, family and loved ones who are JWs and all the crap people say about them that is false gets tiresome. You would not likely ever find a Baptised JW agreeing to a whole blood tranfusion since they hold certain fundamental beliefs about specific blood products (not all blod products). However, that's a far cry from prohibition and again, it's not vaccines.


RE: vaccinations - there are certain Mennonite and Amish communities who have for generations had religious prohibitions against vaccination but that varies greatly from community to community. Some Rastaferian derived groups also have such prohibitions but for different reasons. (That might be what you were reaching for in trying to make your point)

The interesting thing about the Amish/Mennonite tradition of refusing childhood vaccines is that it makes them a valuable community to study in the controversey over Mercury Exposure and Autism. Some very interesting papers on the subject have been published.

BTW - My Mum lost my records TWICE and I had to be revaccinated as a result. I was refused admittance to college until I agreed to be revaccinated for 7 different things. Very annoying. The first time she lost the records in a house flood - that was in grade School. I'd like to think I am now Super-Immune to Measles, Mumps, Rubella,Chickenpox, Diptheria and the like - but immunity doesn't work that way, oh well.

Incidentally, unvaccinated children of these religious communities do not have the vaccination requirement waived. They must be home-schooled.

it was a good try though!

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,Frug
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:38 PM

A Parallel if not quite so serious situation currently affects some friends of mine here in the UK. Their daughter just accepted at Oxford Uni cannot produce evidence of MMR and other vaccinations, therefore before going up has to get all injections redone. Oh yes reason for no evidence = Computer cock up.


Sue everybody

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:41 PM

Suing everybody will make several lawyers very happy, and waste a whole bunch of your time and money, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:51 PM

From time to time I have used a Magical Incantation that seems to produce immediate results. Rehearse it carefully with a calm but firm voice and a very serious expression.

"Well, I guess I'm going to have to see what my attorney says about this."

Amazing the spirit of cooperation this can elicit.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:54 PM

Don, if you really want him in Pub school, then fight it.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:56 PM

Ah, yes...threatening legal action can be quite effective. By all means, do that, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 07:06 PM

Well, it's not actually threatening legal action, it's just saying (more to yourself than to whoever you're talking to, but definitely in their earshot) that you'd like to see what you're attorney thinks. Often that's all it takes.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,H
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 07:33 PM

Is this in the US? I am only knowledgeable with perhaps the rules and regs in 40% of the States and no where is there any consideration for immunization requirements in the first year of life. The schools could care less.

Is this a private school or is this a joke?

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,H
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 07:35 PM

I also think I might know why he doesn't want to grow older. He has been reading the BS threads on Mudcat - not all, but obviously enough.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 07:52 PM

For sure. It would certainly have made me not want to grow older.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: jaze
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 07:56 PM

I was held out of Catholic school at age 6 because the nuns couldn't SEE my smallpox vaccination.

I think you have every right to with hold a portion of your state taxes that go for education if your child is being denied one.

You should indeed fight it AND make it public.

My son was expelled form school for one year for lighting a firecracker in the lunchroom. Incredibly stupid, I know. Some kids handed him one and said "here, light this" And he did and threw it on the floor and immediately stepped on it. They, who brought firecrackers to school, got two weeks suspension. My son was expelled for one year, meaning 365 days. This was in January. He couldn't go back in sept. Now he's saying he wants to quit and just get his GED. And I don't really blame him. No child left behind??
Safety needs to be tempered with common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:13 PM

No child left behind if they behave. Lighting a firecracker IN school?
Common sense needs to used.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:21 PM

I was expelled from school for life when I was 15, leaving age then was 16. It made me realise what life really was like when I got out there and had to find a job. I ended up studying at night class a few years later and went on to do my diploma. Never looked back had a great career. It was my wild years and it was youth. He will do fine, I think the school will see their mistake within days. Support him as I know you will, but don't let them wiggle out of it. Contact local press.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:23 PM

Hey, Donuel, count Dean on lucky kid... Now he won't have to go the D.C. public schools... That's great news!!!

Just put him in front of a pudder with a few tutorial programs and he'll prolly get his GED by, ohhhh, 12 years old and be outta college before most of the other now 5 year olds are in high school...

My son had a lot of problems in school as well. Between private schools and various public schools he was in 10 different schools from age 5 to 15... Then he quit, did some home schoolin, a few evenin' classes thru the puvluic schools and got his GED just before his 17th birthday....

Yer kid is smart.... Don't put him thru the school scene... Schools suck... All they do is bore bright kids while babysittin' the not-so-bright's and not-so-motivated's...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:33 PM

Odd. I have made 2 posts to this thread which disappeared into thin air...

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:34 PM

And Bobert is right. He's better off not IN the public schools. Way better off.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:46 PM

Ahhh, LH, but I hate to break it to ya but since it has come out that you account for 70% of all Mudcat postings that the powers-at-be have put a filter on you... But, hey, don't feel all discriminated against 'cause the filter just takes every other post... It ain't smart 'nuff to figure out which posts are which...l Purely a nummers game...

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:57 PM

Donuel

do you or your wife keep a diary? or a notebook in the kitchen or by the phone? if you have your own record (diary is accepted in court) of the date and times your son had his vaccinations, then any lawyer will back you up in court.

hood luck

freda

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:06 PM

My oldest nephew was put into "Special Education" because he was "slow." Okay -- and after a year he wanted out. He couldn't GET out. His parents couldn't get him out, and he was doing such educational stuff as watching cartoons. Finally, after 18 months, my brother got really pissed off and ran for the School Board -- and won. When the nephew was leaving, the SE teacher told him (this is an exact quote), "Now, when it gets too hard for you out there, you remember that we're always here."

Nephew graduated from High School and spent five years in the Marines repairing helicopters and fixed wing aircraft. At discharge he was a staff sergeant (E-6); he's now married (his wife as a double BA) and a foreman at Dow Automotive. Turns out he had an undiagnosed reading problem -- and some lousy teachers. His ASVB scores put his IQ in the "near genius" range.

His sister WAS in the genius range -- and in her last year of high school was taking astrophysics via the Internet. Brother ran for School Board again because of his concerns about the Honors Program -- turns out that it was governed not by grades and testing scores, but by "teacher recommendation." When Bro and other school board members got THAT straightened out 2/3rds of the honors program was replaced....

Now, if you're talking Monkey County, Maryland, you're talking Yuppiedom Squared. But hell, I'd give a run for the School Board; the worst that can happen is that you'd be elected.

Otherwise, scream and yell to the media -- especially Fox News.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:24 PM

Donuel, remember this.

The only negative thing about home schooling is to ensure that the child gets sufficient 'social interaction' especially 'peer social interaction'.

Yes, even been on the receiving end of school bullying is a 'highly educative social learning experience' (they're all selfish bastards!).

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt to prove it, read the book, seen the movie, in the cast taking the play on the road...

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 10:32 PM

Don,

Our pediatrician always gives us a few papers at each visit. They have to do with the immunisations being administered, their height and weight, the usual. I have them all in a file around here somewhere. I never look at them, just cram them in the file for "just in case." I guess this would be one of those instances.

As several others have suggested, if you backtrack through your various insurance providers you should find records of everything they paid for. You may have to look at old records if you, like me, have had several companies depending on who got the contract with your employer that year. (I wish they'd dump BlueCross/BlueShield--my doctor did. BC/BS is so poor about paying and they were going to lower payments to doctors again, that the doctor bailed first).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 10:37 PM

I agree, Foolestroupe, social interraction is important. I used to tell my kids that in the real world, you don't get to choose the people you work with so learn how to deal with the other students, even if they are jerks. I loved elementary school but hated high school. If anything, I learned how to ignore those that I didn't like and to nurture friendships with those that I did like. Generally, it teaches you how to get along in the greater society.

As far as vaccination and immunization, I agree with Peace, go to your school board and ask to see where it says that a child must present a medical record. In Canada, thats considered confidential information and to demand it would be an invasion of privacy. Nobody has to be immunized.

Donuel - Seems to me that your son's school does not believe that parents are partners in education. I think you should shop around. In kindergarten and grade l, here, parents are encouraged to stay in class for the first 40 minutes to read individually with children. We call it noisy reading time. Everybody is reading aloud and it is very noisy! Funny though, the kids love it and don't seem to notice the noise because they are concentrating on reading aloud.

If a parent wanted to come to class and observe their child, I would have to have a good reason to deny them entry or my principal would be having a very stern talk with me.

Its your taxes that pay for that classroom as well as the teacher's salary. You have every right to observe.

I'm surprised you still have school nurses. Our public health nurse comes by about once every six weeks. Her main job is to keep the medical manual current, and immunize the big kids for hep. She is considered a resource, not a member of the staff. If she has a concern, she sends a letter home but thats it. Hearing is screened in Grade l but that is done by the regional health authority.

How odd that in a country that vehemently rejects 'socialized' medicine, that schools would have a nurse. Who pays for her services? Tell her not to touch your kid without your permission. She sounds like a very invasive person.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 10:37 PM

My pediatrician gave me a folder marked with the immunizations, date and his signature to show the school nurse. Don't they have a file on your son? A paper one?
Time to have a lawyer give a friendly call first to the doctor then to the scholl board.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Severn
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 10:53 PM

Damn! My daughter and stepdaughters are all grown up now, but we used Pediatric Associates for all three of them. This was back before the computer age really clicked in, mind you, but I logged quite a bit of time in their waiting room. Scary! And disgraceful, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:07 PM

Give the child the proper immunizations!

If you, as guardians, are so unorganized to not keep records, have the record tatooed on his buttocks.

Parents like you enable/permit ruebella, smallpox, measles, infantile paralysis, whooping cough, and hepititis.

Given your statement....and back-tracing of your URL....local authorities should take protective custody of the child....and YOU should be expelled from "parenthood." You are a danger to more than your son.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:21 PM

More than likely, the scholl board will be bored with illiteracy.

Some are destined to Nobel fame; others should follow their pappy's footpathe to the dole line. And society will be richer for each path chosen.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:21 PM

You could be quite wrong about that, nameless one, but who am I to challenge your chosen religious beliefs. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:23 PM

" Common sense needs to used."

Oh, but it is in SUCH short supply... as this thread testifies to all too effectively

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:26 PM

Pediatric Associates is where my parents took me between the ages of 9 1/2 and around 12 or 13. I took my son there once when he got sick while we were visiting my parents (he's an adult now). They've certainly been around long enough to know how to run a doctor's office. My sister and my friends and I used to like to take a few trips up and down their elevator just for larks when we were walking to Wheaton Plaza back in the 1960s. They didn't approve.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:27 PM

I have a small bottle of it here, Clinton. Very rare. I'll sell it, but only for big bucks. You get first crack, if you're interested.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:41 PM

I've got it by the hogshead LH... I'd be happy to give it away if I thought it wouldn't be wasted...

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:03 AM

Guest - You are so obviously Martin Gibson, its laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:29 AM

Your son should be expelled from school, becuase he could have a disease in him that is trasnferable and in that case deadly. At my college you arent aloud to live in the dorms unless you have all of your immunization records kept up to date and completed. They give the shots for a reason. Not only could he be endangering himself, but all the other teachers and children in that school. It's a long shit, i will admit, but it COULD happen and the school doesnt want to take that chance. You were unprepared and now your paying for it, don't blame them becuase you dont have everything you need together

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 01:23 AM

You have a disease in you that's transferable. Mean-mindedness. There is no effective vaccination for that yet. Too bad.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,h
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 01:51 AM

By the way, who can tell what the immunization requirements are in the first two months of life.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 08:30 AM

Your son should be expelled from school, becuase he could have a disease in him that is trasnferable and in that case deadly. [...] Not only could he be endangering himself, but all the other teachers and children in that school.

How could he be endangering all the other children?

They have all been immunized by the vaccinations (without them they would not have been allowed into school, remember?)

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:03 AM

And last I checked, it wasn't Donuel who's responsible for losing the records.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:08 AM

[Yawn.] Another nameless "Guest" comes trolling at Mudcat. He/she/it has nothing of importance to say, just wants to stir things up. Let's see, it's about time for name-calling, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: jeffp
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:40 AM

What specific vaccinations are you lacking documentation for? For some, a blood test showing immunity is acceptable as an alternative to a vaccination record (polio, measles, mumps, rubella, varicella).

No immunizations before 2 months of age are required by the Maryland schools.

Reference: Vaccine Requirements for Children Enrolled in Preschool Programs and in Schools

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:47 AM

Don't know wether this may be of help to you but here in the UK a child is monitored all through their formative years and is called into their doctors to received whatever jabs they require. Mumps measles etc. This function is carried out by the local Primary Care Trust who utilise a computerised system called (in our area) Swift National Child Care. This is a system developed and supported by a company named McKesson. They keep a back up of all info put onto the system by the PCT, if you arae operates a similiar you may be able to retrieve your childs records this way

Good Luck

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:03 AM

Yep everyones suggestions thus far are fantastic. I couldn't agree more with the blessing in disguise point of view.

The fact that Dean has had every vaccine required, as well as a few that were not (pnumonia etc.), was a courageous decision on our part since our first child had a bad reaction to the MMR possibly due to the mercury content (Thimerisol) in the vaccine. Fortunetly Dean did not.

The SOLUTION of asking the insurence company for payment records for those fist 60 days was something we did not even think of and is much appreciated!

As for the contentious words of Guest, I am concerned about all the Tuberculosis that is coming into our area. I am not certain if there is a vaccine for that.???
We may in fact have had a copy of Deans inital 60 days medical records but they have not turned turned up since we moved so we could easily be at fault as well.




My wife says she is not comfortable with home schooling/private schools.

I think it would be great.

My public school experience had many hard knocks from bullies. In Jr. High I recieved a skull fracture while I was already unconcious. Over 100 people watched the whole incident. Many of the beatings were by the hands of teachers as well as instigated by them. Red baiting the anti war atheist Jew kid who wrote essays about evolution and defended the Russian and Chinese cultures, presented an irresistable target for more than a few teachers. I kid you not, one teacher would even bring a rifle to class and insisted that I call it a weapon and not a gun. Sometimes he would invite high school graduates that came back wounded from Viet Nam would give patriotic talks with mixed messages.

But I have digressed too much...

It seems that the violence bar has been raised since my days in school. Last week in our Montgomery county school system an 11 year old girl was murdered by another girl at the Friday night intermural ball game in retalliation over a spitting incident.




PS
aside:
...............................................
My comical side has had visions of having a talk with the Principal, swearing her to secrecy and telling her that the reason that there are no records for the 60 day period is the fact that Dean is one of the first human clones and was "concieved" in Corsica. Therefor records from overseas would only compromise our special situation.

Not much has changed since Jr. High as far as socializing goes.

I probably have the social grace of Larry David's character in "Curb your Enthusiasm. At a neighborhood get together last October the people had a framed picture of the Bush Christmas card in the front hallway and they were all talking about the glorius tax cuts and terrible oppression of doctors due to insurence rates.
So what did I do?

I told a Bill Mahre joke about stem cells and the religious right.

None of them have spoken to me or accepted any pool party or dinner invitations since. In fact they walk hurriedly to thier nearest door/gate if I am seen on the sidewalk. How far these people of faith (they call themselves the "Originals" having bought thier home new) will go to punish the infidel is anyones guess but I was warned of the neighborhood "Mayberry" gossip mill and that some of the stories about me are not believed. I suppose that is a good thing.

The day after the inauguration when protesters turned their back on Bush, two of the neigbor ladies came out in a snow storm and stood at the end of my driveway with their backs turned and prevented me from completing the snowblowing I was doing without blasting them with slush. Still I wonder how they feel about Bill Frist's support of stem cells and the comments by Bill Bennet.

Would I be surprised if my neighborly Repulican ire has reached the ears of sympathetic school administrators and as a result 5 year old Dean became the target of thier satisfaction?

No. But hopefully it is not the case.

As Tip O'Neal said "All politics are local".

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: jeffp
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:07 AM

The girl that was stabbed to death was 15, not 11. Try to get the basic facts right. It makes you more believable.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:51 AM

I should think the first two months vaccinations are completely irrelevant, considering he has had all shots since then and is up to date with them.

I wouldn't want my son in such a school system.

Also, I believe it is Christian Scientists who are against vaccines, too, as well as blood tranfusions, etc.

You are your child's best advocate, don't ever forget that.:-)

Good luck,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:03 PM

Donuel, I really think you are full of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:18 PM

Guest, G, are you suggesting he should be full of someone else? Would one need an exorcist for that, or is there some kind of tranference you could recommend?

Ever heard of being quiet if you have nothing constructive to say?

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:33 PM

Oh, Donuel... your son's school will most certainly have heard the neighborhood gossip about you, and it will very probably effect the way your son is treated. With your track record, you ought to seriously consider sending him to one of your local Friends schools, or get him into one of the public schools in Takoma Park. Dean can get a very good education there, and you'll find the political attitudes and mindsets to be much more like your own.

Sandy Spring Friends School has a bus stop in your neighborhood, and Thornton Friends School, although small, is another option.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: jeffp
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:51 PM

You say you have records of 14 immunizations. A quick look at the requirements (linked earlier) shows 15 immunizations required, with some exceptions, some of which I mentioned above. Your child, at 5 years of age, requires to have had 4 DTaP/DTP/DT/Td shots (Diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis), 3 polio vaccines (not shots generally), 2 measles vaccinations, 1 mumps vaccination, 1 rubella, 1 varicella (chickenpox--a documented case of chickenpox can substitute for vaccination), and 3 Hepatitis B vaccinations. DT may be substituted for DTP or DTaP with submission of a physician documented medical contraindication (i.e., allergy to the pertussis part of the vaccine). The measles, mumps, rubella and varicella vaccinations must be after the first birthday.

It would appear that only one vaccination is at issue. It could be that that one was missed or perhaps not documented properly. I am sure your son will be accepted back in school when this is cleared up. That may require an additional vaccination. I am sure that your son has not been "expelled from school forever." That is an exaggeration. I am sure that he is merely being withheld until this matter is cleared up to the school system's satisfaction.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: jeffp
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:57 PM

Here is a link to the Maryland Health and Mental Hygiene Immunization Certificate. It provides a path to follow in case of lost or destroyed vaccination records. In some cases, revaccination is the best solution.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 01:10 PM

I will not click on jeff's 'Mental Hygiene Certificate' link, and my computer security suggests no one else should either.

"forever" is indeed hypothetical yet conceivable.

Carol C the school suggestions are terrific.
Also my neighbor teaches at a small private school in which her marvelous and brilliant children also attend, except for one who is now at John Hopkins.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 01:14 PM

There is NOTHING wrong with Jeffps link... So obviously your 'security settings' are the issue...   No surprise in this thread...

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 01:22 PM

Katlaughing, you might be correct in not saying anything - me, that is. It just occurred to me that the majority of the threads here are started just for the sheer enjoyment of chitchat and perhaps for the improvement of typing prowess
.
Please tell me if that is true and I shall not interfere. I offer this as I know there is no requirement for immunizations that might occurr in the first 8 weeks of life that are required for entry into any type of public schooling. And if there were, a simple redo would make everyone content. I guess I was thinking sham while typing my previous post.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: jeffp
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 01:32 PM

It's only forever if you refuse to do your part. Clinton is right, the link is to a pdf file of the certificate. Get over your paranoia and do the right thing for your children.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 02:34 PM

Voila:
The federal insurance company has the records of payment for Dean's 2 missing vaccination records and will mail them next week.
Now its up to the school nurse and principal to accept that as proof.

Dean will enjoy his "religious" holiday of the Wazoo witness' of latter day fundmentalist beaurocratic extremists, in the meantime.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 02:41 PM

The increase in tuberculosis cases are, in the UK anyway, usually caused by people coming here from countries that do not have an immunization programme, or where it is so expensive that only the very rich can afford it. The diabolical habit of spitting or ejecting other nasal/chest fluids via the mouth to the floor by all ages and both sexes has done nothing to stem the flow of new infections that my local hospital sees weekly.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 02:45 PM

Donuel, keep on 'keepin on'. No one here has yet to catch on that there is zip, notta, zero school requirements for Immunization records for the first 2 months of life.

This has been a great case study. What "Federal Insurance Company?"
should be another tip or...........I hark back to my post of 03 Sep 05 1:22 PM post.
I can't take it anymore!

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 02:51 PM

So, overall, nothing happend but a book-keeping error....

Big deal... It's an imperfect world... screws fall out....

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 02:56 PM

GUest, G, thanks for your response, which imo, would have been the better response in the first place. I also questioned the need for records from the first two months of life.

There can be a lot of chit-chat, but oftentimes we discuss issues which are very personal, important, and meaningful, to some of us.

Donuel, jeffp's link was fine, but this is a direct, non-pdf link to the actual info at that same site.

Glad to ehar you got it sorted,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: jeffp
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 03:07 PM

I posted the info about no immunizations required from the first 2 months of life at 10:40 this a.m. All it took was a trip to the MD Department of Health web site.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Melani
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 03:08 PM

Don Firth has very good advice--if they won't accept your proof of vaccination, just threaten to sue everyone involved--in a low-key way, of course. It's amazing how that gets results.

And for all you folks who suggested home-schooling, that's fine if it works for you. It will not work if both parents have jobs, or if the kid in question needs the benefit of socializing with a lot of different people, etc. My disabled son needs to be in a school setting where he can observe normal behavior. The only private schools around here for special kids are primarily for autistic kids who are too disruptive for public school, which would not be good for my kid at all. At one point, they tried to force us into home-schooling him because he was having seizures--a problem for a great many special kids.Most speical-ed teachers can deal with this issue, and I know many who have. His major need is for socialization, so being isolated at home would not have been good.

And private schools for regular kids are not free, but you must continue to pay taxes to support free public schools anyway. Your kid has a right to public education, without being messed over by incompetent idiots.

All this puts me in mind of a kid who was expelled from school because she picked up her mother's brown-bag lunch by mistake. The mom had included a knife for peeling fruit in her own lunch. When the kid found it, she went at once to the teacher to hand it in and explain. She was expelled for bringing a weapon to school. I am pretty sure lawsuits ensued--I certainly hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 03:10 PM

ALL kids need to socialize with lots of different people....

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 03:25 PM

Hell, that's not expulsion, just delayed registration until some paperwork gets clarified.

Now, I, was expelled from school when I was 14 for something really bad. I wasn't expelled forever, but certainlly long enough that, if I recall, to managed to finish some DH Lawrence, including more than just the naughty bits, some Tolstoy and a book by Isaac Asimov, if memory serves.

My crime was really dangerous and subversive, I wore mascara and refused to wash it off when ordered to do so by the PE teacher.

This was beyond the "school rules do not permit me........." usual line stuff, this was really heavy duty and was only rectified when my long suffering mother, sprung to have my blond eyelashes and eyebrows dyed brown at a beauty salon.

I went back to school with the receipt for the procedure in hand and was reinstated and after that, no one seemed to notice that the dye job didn't last very long and I contiued to apply the usual stuff.   It could be that they were distracted by my electic green and black snake skin or purple and red paisley leotards in lieu of nylon stockings, which were also banned along with makeup.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 03:42 PM

A girl I knew in highschool was 'kicked out' for shaving her head... they said it was distracting.... so I and about 30-50 others all shaved our heads.... and showed up the next day wearing Cancer Society T-Shirts that we'd made....

The fact that she'd shaved her head in sympathy for a fellow student who was fighting cancer had never even been asked after...

She was back at school the next day, and cursing at US cause we'd cut into her time off!

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 04:02 PM

The chart gives the shots required for pre-school and kindergarten. I don't think there are many pre-schools accepting kids under 2 months old.

Anyway, what the charts AREN'T is a list of what shots are required when. The kindergarten kids need, for example, the complete series of 3 hepatits B shots. If Dean received the first shot before he was 2 months old, the series will appear incomplete.

I hope the insurance company has records, although a blood test is acceptable for most of them. I don't think suing the school would work very well since the shots are deemed necessary for public health and it's a valid reason to require them and you clearly intended to get them.

I think it's quite likely you're going to need a record of those shots, Having Dean get the shots again, or proof of immunity, in that order of preference. Some of those series are one-time shots, and he's going to go through this every time he goes to a different school, including college. Possible for a passport as well, but I'm not sure of that.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 04:26 PM

LOL. Clinton, I wish I could say my protest was to advance such a higher purpose, but alas, no.

I just had this problem with rules that I thought arbitrary. The same rules were not in effect the preceeding year and I didn't notice adopting a strict dress code caused any improvement in student deportment.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 06:51 PM

... or probably even academic results, Metchosin...

That is part of the reason for not home schooling - you can't learn how (or why) to rebel against mindless stupid (and possibly dangerous) authority without experiencing it, no matter how painful it may seem at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 07:57 PM

Donuel - so glad your Insurance carrier had the needed records. All will be well. I know how rattling it can be to not be able to lay your hands on some much needed records.

My husband and I have mo children of our own, but we have recently made a habit of keeping a copy of ALL our important papers in a big red portfolio which we got for free from an online offer from State Farm insurance. I can PM the link to you. You fill out a little online form and a week or so later, they send you a big plastic red portfolio with a white handle, designed for grabbing in case of fire! It's such a smart idea. We now keep a copy of:

our marriage certificates (we were married to eachother 3 times - don't ask)
our birth certificates
Photocopies of all our financial account numbers & Customer service #s
Photocopies of all our other IDs
Life insurance & medical isnurance
Investment records & banking info
Car registration & insurance
and about 20 other things

Seeing as it's wildfire season here in los Angeles and we were nearly smoked out of our home last thursday, it was comforting to know I had all the papers in one place finally. You can't miss that Red portfolio with the white handle! State Farm is a great company - they'll send that to anybody for free whether you are a client or not.

BTW - I went to Public School in New York and I got a fabulous education. I entered University an instant sophmore as a result of having spent 2 years taking college courses for half days in a gifted program. I could have graduated at 15 but my folks were talked into letting me stay in Highschool and stay with my peers for part of the day for 2 more years. It was a very wise choice.

I'm not saying it was easy to be a gifted student in a public school but my parents and the adminstrators had my best interests in mind and did as much as they could to keep me challenged without making my life abnormal. I believe their efforts were well worth the time they put into it because when I hit the steps of my univeristy, I didn't spin out and hit the wall like so many others. I got into a combined Bachelors & Masters program right away and felt much more confident than most of the other gifted kids who were a year or two younger. They all got into drunking, drugs and other distractions, many of them washing out before they were 18.

Public School is not what it was when I was a child in the 70s but its still possible for a motivated parent to help their child get the best the system has to offer. I wish you every success.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 08:57 PM

State Farm is a great company with innovative ideas. However, if the fire starts and you are not home?

Did this for years and have the kids set up - a small fireproof (most important) waterproof file, think file folder size by 12 inches deep with all records involving health, finances, including credit card dupes and property info with IRAs and birth certificates. Kids thought this would be a bear to start up but found it wasn't.
Annual updating is all that is required unless some major change takes place and then you do that within a close time frame.

Insurance policies, deeds for all properties, etc. Most of these items only require the one copy which would be safe in the 'safe'.
A heavy bolt into the basement wall, if available, would secure the file. Banks are good but the necessity for prompt document retriveal
could negate that method.
This is not a major undertaking and nothing compared to the need of the info AFTER a disaster

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 08:59 PM

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 09:00 PM

....and all this effort for a thread that was in jest to begin with. But, this is how we learn.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:35 PM

If the fire starts when we are not home - there's the safety depost box! ;-)

I just like having that red portfolio nearby.

of course, if fire overtakes my home, it might get my bank too which is only a few blocks away. Darnit GuestG! now I'm gonna have to send copies of all these papers to my Mum in New York. and here I thought I had finally done something responsbile.

And then.. if her house burns.. oh....!

(State Farm is cool. They also send free books about Pregnancy and raising toddlers to parents whether you are a client or not. they really want our business! Fidelity investments is good with the helpful stuff too)

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:47 PM

You seem awfully concerned about how we spend our time and efforts, Guest,G. I can't see how that kind of busybody activity is any more constuctive than our simple willingness to come to Donuel's assistance if he asks for it. One big difference between you and Donuel, however. I know I can go and visit Donuel if I want to, and talk to him about these kinds of things in person. I can't say that about you, now, can I?

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: LadyJean
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:51 PM

I was expelled from a girls' prep school when I was 9, because I have a learning disability. No great loss, the place was an anachronism. We were graded on posture and voice placement. I finished third grade knowing half the mulitplication table, because our teacher was of the opinion that our delicate feminine brains couldn't handle the whole thing at once.
Instead, she had us memorize the names or paintings of children, along with the names of the artists who painted them, and where they were hanging.
As I said no great loss.
The school nurse sounds like the problem. You run into these people. If given a smidgen of authority they abuse it. I suspect if you talk to other parents you'll hear similar stories. If you collect enough of them and present them to the school board, she may become a former school nurse.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 02:53 AM

Surely the land of the class action and the contingency suit can give the school what it deserves.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 03:33 AM

"I know I can go and visit Donuel if I want to, and talk to him about these kinds of things in person."

Talk about a W.O.M.B.A.T.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,G
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 07:05 AM

CarolC, it must be a simple case of perception on your part. Kat and I got thru it okay.
Dave'sWife, your idea is the ultimate. It is the same as storing computer backups in a different location. We do that even where the one business has a large fireproof safe. Use a neighbor down the street rathter than next door except in the California dry highlands.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 08:14 AM

Please tell me it's all a Strange-American-Humour joke. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,G
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 08:56 AM

I also was 'expelled' from a girls school one night.
Strollin - Lets' just consider it one of those American made mysteries that will never be solve which will ultimately be to everyone's adavantage. Humor is to the beholder.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 09:05 AM

I rather prefer the idea of a fire-resistant strong box, than the red file.

A file like that has rather a 'steal me' air about it, especially if lots of them are about. I don't know if that's just me being paranoid, but...

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: jeffp
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 09:24 AM

Another idea I saw was to scan all of your important papers, burn it onto a CD, and keep the CD in your "go bag" (the emergency kit you will definitely take with you in an emergency evacuation, fire, whatever). Easily portable and easy to stash multiple copies for backup.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 09:43 AM

Like the UK, 3/4 of the new TB cases in CA are from immigrants.
..........

If schools are not required to have those first 2 vaccine records, then the unilateral action made by the nurse and backed by the principal is one of ignorance or possibly petty revenge for my challenge of the school policy of no classroom visits for parents.

...........

I remember being shocked that the hospital was anxious to give our infant vaccines for sexually transmitted diseases and Hep C.
I suspect that Pharmaceutical lobbies are making decisions for us that are not in our health's best interests but rather for thier profit.

Organizing records is indeed important and probably my Achilles heel.

ladyjean,
I have yet to organize:
our marriage certificates (our birth certificates
Photocopies of all our financial account numbers & Customer service #s
Photocopies of all our other IDs
Life insurance & medical insurance
Investment records & banking info
Car registration & insurance
and about 20 other things

I assume my wife does this and she probably keeps thinking we'll get around to it.

...........

Meeting me in person is no picnic: I interrupt nervously, get flustered and can't concentrate effectively to recall people's names.
Making pictures, sculpture, inventions and writing are the few times I can focus my attention with satisfaction.
Unless an interaction is scripted (such as work) I tend to be a silly flibertygibit. My attempts at live humor is a dead pan sarcasm which if gotten at all is usually taken as some kind wise ass comment. All in all Larry David's character has more social grace than me.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: jaze
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 10:56 AM

Just to clarify, I'm in no way excusing what my son did. It was beyond stupid and could have been very dangerous. This he has been made to realize. However, I think expulsion for the remainder of that year -6 months would have sufficed. Keeping him out the first half of the 2nd year caused him to want to give up and not go back.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 11:08 AM

1 year is harsh.
We have heard about kids expelled for biting a graham craker in the shape of a hand gun or pointing a finger and saying bang.

zero tolerence is similar to mandatory sentencing. It removes any common sense and human judgement from society.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 11:42 AM

Not really, Guest,G. I've experienced much stranger things at the hands of my local school officials. You've already been proven wrong about at least one thing in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: open mike
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 11:44 AM

i think there may be an exemption for religions reasons..
but if 99 kids have shots and one doesn't. the one may
catch someting, but then the 09ther 99 are protected....


find your cancelled cahck....check....if insurance did not
pay maybe you did.
the local health dept, may have records...
i think here they have to keep track of shots

and they usually give them in their cloinic.
and give you a card that tehy stamp at the time//
perhaps you had a card??/

good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Janie
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 01:09 PM

Don--Glad your insurance co. had records.

However--it gave me the willies to hear that the school did not want you observing in the classroom. It is your kid, and your tax dollars, and it seems to me that any school should welcome as much parental involvement as they can get. The public elementary school attended by my son embraced parents--in fact, especially in K thru 2nd grade, there was nearly always at least one parent volunteer working in each classroom--tutoring, reading to kids, etc. My husband is a stay-at-home dad, and they were particularly delighted to have a male parent there. Through 4th grade, parents were truly viewed as partners. Then a new principal/beaurocrat came. Not interested in education, but in administration/control/turf. His last year of elementary school was pretty unjoyful.

Now, the middle schools in our area sound much more similar to what you have experienced with your son's elementary school. Thanks to the largesse of a family member, our son started middle school at Carolina Friends School this fall. So far, he and we are thrilled with it, in the FWIW department (I saw Carol's links to Friends schools in your area so thought I would mention it.)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 02:54 PM

Talk about a W.O.M.B.A.T.

I can see that's an acronym for "Clinton Hammond, Sword For Hire". What a T.I.T.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 03:20 PM

And Don, yes there is a vaccine for TB.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,G
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 10:15 PM

CarolC, at 11:42 AM today - I have not a clue as to what you are speaking of nor do I think it is my fault that I do not.
And, pray tell what "you have already been proven wrong about at least one thing in this thread" means, both grammtically and factually.
I myself am not here for the purpose of proving anyone "wrong". If I should see an error in statement, I shall bring it to the attention of that person as I would expect anyone to do the same with me.

I am in need of an extended sabbtical due both to my strenous schedule of work as well as the effort required on the Mud Vein.

Again, please show me the error of my ways with regard to this thread as I would find it astonishing that any right/wrong differential could be established in this particular thread as it has been based on ambiguity.
I will leave in the wee hours of Wednesday CDST and will return around the 22nd of this month. I will, with great anticipation, look forward to your response. It is unfortunate (not really) that my destination has no provision for the world of the Internet.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 11:04 PM

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,G - PM
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 02:45 PM

...No one here has yet to catch on that there is zip, notta, zero school requirements for Immunization records for the first 2 months of life.

This is incorrect. Jeri did a good job of explaining how it works in her 03 Oct 05 - 04:02 PM post. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didn't understand it. Or maybe you understood it, but you're still trying to make it look like Donuel was not sincere in his initial post for some other weird reasons of your own.

Here's part of Jeri's post...

The chart gives the shots required for pre-school and kindergarten. I don't think there are many pre-schools accepting kids under 2 months old.

Anyway, what the charts AREN'T is a list of what shots are required when. The kindergarten kids need, for example, the complete series of 3 hepatits B shots. If Dean received the first shot before he was 2 months old, the series will appear incomplete.

What this means is that if Donuel's son was under two months old right now, and Donuel wanted to put him in a day care facility, he would be able to do so without providing any proof of innoculations until his son is two months old.

But since Donuel's son is not under two months old right now, he is in fact five years old, he is required to have the full series of shots according to the innoculation schedule for a child his age. If some of those shots were administered to Donuel's son when he was younger than two months old, those shots still need to be documented and the documentation must still be shown to the school authorities in order for the son to be allowed to attend public school.

Donuel has stated that two of the scheduled innoculations were administered when the son was under two months old. Donuel must present proof of this in order for his son to attend public school.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 02:01 PM

Anyone who thinks that Donuel's son was the victim of an overzealous school nurse hasn't been reading the papers for the last couple of years. The business about not accepting kids in school until they provide proof of complete vaccinations is a fairly new initiative, and is being agressively pursued by a lot of school systems because it has been discovered that large numbers of kids never received the required vaccinations, an there had been outbreaks of the diseases in school populations.

When I lived in Philadelphia, there was an outbreak of Rubella among school kids who were not vaccinated for religious reasons--a number of children died, and the school was closed for a period of time.   

Do you really think that school administrators will respond to blustering and threats of petty legal action(legal action which they are perfectly able to handle) when they are afraid that children will die? Wake up and smell the coffee--

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 06:01 PM

Ted I would agree with you but in our case, it is the nurse.
Well, she is not really a nurse, she is a health technician.

This morning I requested a written explaination for Dean's expulsion.

The principal called me today and revealed that Dean is in fact the only child expelled regarding vaccination records. She went on to reveal that there are many children (more than a few dozen) who do not even have all of thier shots and they are not expelled. Again - Dean is completely up to date.

What makes Dean special is that the nurse placed him in the "no progress" catagory while all the children who do not have their shots were placed in the "in progress" catagory and still allowed to attend school.

That makes Dean, again - who has all his shots the ony one expelled.

The reason most likly is that the nurse was over ruled by the principal regarding Dean's brothers use of the health room bathroom, and that I critisized her in front of her supervisor for calling me into the school to pull up Dean's underewear, which she was supposedly not allowed to do. Those 2 incidents are the only interaction I had with the overly literal and high strung Asian American school health technician.


The principal is calling in the nurse supervisor to see if the additional charges that the health technician are medically valid.

What the health technician has done now is to require that Dean get ALL the shots required between the age of 5 through 7 to be done before he is allowed back in public school. That could mean giving him some shots a couple years before they are due since he only just turned 5.

I will seek the doctor's advice regarding giving Dean innoculations that are not yet due.

I told the principal the 3 reasons for any dispute can fall into 3 catagories: Economic and personal which is probably the reason due to the 2 interactions we had with the "nurse".

The principal asked in an up beat way what the 3rd reason of dispute was. I said it is the most dangerous reason of all and should not even be mentioned out loud...(I whispered) "religion".

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 07:49 PM

I really hadn't realised till reading this thread that The Simpsons is actually an accurate portrayal of small town America.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 08:56 PM

Donuel,

If you feel the nurse is being unreasonable, the first person you should talk to is the nurse. If you feel that she is in error as to what is appropriate, you need to talk to her about it. Part of this is so imply a matter of form--"the right thing to do"--but the other part of it is that it gives you the only real opportunity you will have to hear her arguments against you-- take a little recorder--make sure you put it on the table so she can see it.

Before you talk to the nurse, though, you need to get the MCPS policy on expulsions and suspensions, and determine what their formal appeal procedure is. You need to do this so that when you talk to the nurse, you are aware of what your options are. The more you know, the more power you have.

After you talk to the nurse, you should talk to the principal again, and ask why your son hasn't been admitted, and ask when, and under what circumstances, he will be admitted.

The schools have a legal obligation to provide a free education, and they have to have a very good arguement if they decide not to accept your son(in which case, they generally have to pay for a private one). As a general principle, this would be either because he was a threat to public safety, or a threat to public health. They can't apply a different standard to him than they use for other kids--The principal knows this, and ought to have a nice, clear explanation that makes perfect sense, and satisfies you--

If he doesn't , it's probably time to go forward with the formal complaint process--at the same time, it wouldn't hurt to start telling your story to a few attorneys, because you may need at least one.


One thing more, which I hope you won't take the wrong way, but don't talk about "religion", or the fact that the nurse is Asian-American, or about any dubious motives that you think she might have, and don't play any other head games.

None of that stuff will help you. If you bring it up, it will just make things worse. And the one who will suffer is your kid.

This stuff is just a suggestion, not legal advice, I am not a lawyer. I am a neighbor, though,and a parent with a kid in MCPS--Weast and company are tough customers, and you've got to stand tall and shoot straight if you want to win--

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:19 PM

Requiring to child to have shots in advance of those required for his age does have me scratching my head...

McGrath, you may be right...

QUOTE
One thing more, which I hope you won't take the wrong way, but don't talk about "religion", or the fact that the nurse is Asian-American, or about any dubious motives that you think she might have, and don't play any other head games.

None of that stuff will help you. If you bring it up, it will just make things worse. And the one who will suffer is your kid.
UNQUOTE

I'd tend to agree with that from personal experience.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:21 PM

Kevin--Montgomery County is hardly small town America--it is an affluent area adjacent to Washington DC with a population that is actually greater than either Washington or Baltimore-it has the17th largest school system in the US--

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:38 PM

McGrath, Donuel lives in one of the world's major megalopolises.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:39 PM

Oops... crossposted, M.Ted.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 10:03 PM

A metropolis is just a small country town grown large, with actually many of them coexisting with each other on the same patch of ground.

I know - I live in Brisbane - which only officially stopped being a large country town due to Expo 1988.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 10:25 PM

The megalopolis that Montgomery County is a part of stretches all the way from Boston, Massachusettes to northern Virginia.

( ...notice how neither M.Ted or I disagreed with the Simpsons comparison, though, just the size of the city?)

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 10:45 AM

The comparison to the Simpsons is both correct and amusing.
I admit I took artistic license when I said I whispered the word "religion". It was something I would have liked to say but at the time I did think better of it.

I expect the principal to call off the dogs today.

If not we are armed with the truth, video and a very cute plaintiff.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,H
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:22 AM

CarolC, it is very apparent to me that GuestG is correct.
Go back and check the Maryland school requirements for immunizations in the first two months of life. Like he said, zip, notta, zero.

Read carefully, "School requirements for immunizations in the first two months of life".

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:42 AM

But Alphabet, what if one shot in the required series was received in the first 2 months? The SERIES is required.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 12:02 PM

I think Jeri is correct, Guest,H. Go back and read the pdf yourself. Better yet, why don't you call the Montgomery County Board of Ed and ask them if you can enroll your child in one of their schools with fewer than the required number of inoculations?

I know a little bit about the Montgomery County schools, having attended them myself from the ages of 9 and a half to 17, and also having raised a child who attended Montgomery County schools from the ages of 10 to 18. I don't find it at all difficult to believe what Donuels says about his son's experiences there.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: jeffp
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 12:04 PM

The vaccination requirements for children 6-9 years of age are exactly the same as those for 5-year-olds. In fact, there are no additional vaccination requirements after the age of 5.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,H
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 12:46 PM

Jeffp, another clue as to the authenticity of this thread or Donuel needs serious help.

CarolC, I don't have to call anyone. #1. We all know no enrollment is available without the required immunizations. Secondly, go to their website and you will see that there are no "requirements from the school system with regard to immunizations in the first 2 months of life" It is on the official form. As 'G' said, "zip, notta, zilch" or whatever.
What is so difficult about this?

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,H
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 12:50 PM

By the way, whatever response appears fom now on, I am finished.
G can comment further if he so desires. But, if he does, I will have some doubts about him.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 12:56 PM

There are 2 DPT shots and 2 polio shots that were done in infancy and are required as part of the required series. They could just as easily been done at age 1,,, but why wait.

I have the vaccination sheet that Montgomery Co Schools follow.

The whole issue of whether shots begin at infancy or age 1 is a red herring. It is the series that counts.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: GUEST,H
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 01:04 PM

PRECISELY!

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 01:14 PM

Donuel is correct about the requirements--having been through them, and under the same pressures as D, I can say that he is on point--

When reading and interpreting Donuel's posts, remember that he is a cartoonist, and tends to emphasize by means of caricature--

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 08:04 PM

Ted, I can't argue with that.
I am as much a political cartoonist as the principal is a principal even on Sundays.
I don't think the principal knows what I do. I am hoping she is not the primary dispenser of psychological abuse.

If things go south tommorrow I feel comfortable turning it all over to our lawyer.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 09:09 PM

'her decision has been supported by the principle'



So it's a matter of pincipal?

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 09:39 PM

Good luck. I suggest that you listen carefully, and, as I said, record everything--it is amazing how much detail you miss--And a tape makes it much easier for the attorney to get a handle on what is going on-and for the judge to get a handle on it after that. A tape also nips all of that "I never said that" stuff in the bud, since "I never said that" really means "It's your word against mine."

This is a simple problem to resolve--and it never should have gotten to this point--so I am wondering why the principal, who ultimately has control of what is going on, let it go so far--

Anyway, best of luck.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Pauline L
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 09:52 PM

Donuel, what happened is simply awful. I agree with the people on this thread who said to try to get records from your health insurance companyman. Also, I strongly recommend contacting the office of your Congress. I live in Montgomery County, as you do, although I don't think I know you. About two yrars ago, I contacted our Rep's office about some screw up in the federal govt bureaucracy that was terrible in its effects on me, and I got the matter resolved FAST. The people in HR at the federal agency I used to work for called me after the matter was cleared up and told me a bunch of lies. They also blocked me from talking to anyone else in their HR office. They wanted me to send them something in writing saying that they did everything they were supposed to and that I was completely satisfied. Ha!

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:39 PM

"requirements from the school system with regard to immunizations in the first 2 months of life"

What this means, Guest,H, is that it isn't required that Donuel's son should have received any immunizations during the first 2 months of life. But it doesn't mean that if his son did receive, prior to the age of 2 months some of the immunizations that are required by the age of 5, that he would be exempt from having to provide documentation of those immunizations.

Donuel's son did receive some of the immunizations that are required by the age of 5 before he was 2 months old, so Donuel must provide proof of those immunizations.

The requirement isn't before age 2 months... the requirement is by the age of 5 years (for the immunizations in question). But since Donuel's son received some of those immunizations before he was 2 months old, and the records for those immunizations have gone missing, Donuel started this thread to find out what other people might have to say about how he might be able to solve his problem.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:42 PM

...which, by the way, some of us have decided to do without the need to make fun of someone for asking for help with a perfectly legitimate concern.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:49 PM

The school health technician is a large part of the problem. I've dealt with people like her. The SCA is full of them. They use rules as a weapon, not a tool. You can't reason with them. The last thing you should do is sit down and try to talk to someone like that. They don't want to hear your side. They want you to do what they say. They need validation and they find it by making people do what they tell them to and punishing people who don't obey them. As I said, talk to other parents. Chances are she's played the same game with other people's kids.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 12:01 AM

BTW, the only reason the under two months of age factoid is even a part of this discussion is because Donuel has said that all records of his son's immunizations prior to the age of two months have disappeared. Donuel never brought up the under two month age thing in reference to anything the school said it requires.

What he was saying is that he doesn't have records for some of the immunizations that are required by the school system for a child his son's age. From the perspective of the Montgomery County school system, Donuel's son has not received the full series of immunizations required for a five year old child, and they will not accept Donuel's claim that his son has received the full series until he provides documentation of this.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 07:40 AM

Carol, it appears to me that GUEST,H is attempting to argue with you by agreeing with you. Pretty tricky.

Donuel, good luck to you and may the principle decide to help instead of block the way

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 11:50 AM

Interesting idea, Jeri. Things must be very boring lately wherever he/she lives.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 01:15 PM

LadyJean,

You must not ever resolve anything, if you believe that the last person you should talk to is the person who you have a problem with. That's the first person that you talk to--then you move up the ladder--as it happens, it is also the official MCPS policy on conflict resolution that first, that you try to resolve it at the lower levels first--so if Don goes to the top first, they'll just send him back down --

The other thing is, teachers and other school staff really appreciate it when you try to work things out with them, rather than trying to get intervention from above--his son is just starting out at the school, and will have to deal with these same people, every day, for the next five or six years--and teachers talk, a lot!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 01:29 PM

Dean attended school today with the permission of the assistent principal.
When the head principal found out about this she called me regarding her shock and dismay for endangering the students of her school.

Dean was quarantined in the health office.

When I arrived they had their beefiest teacher stand 18 inches away from me with her back turned while it took 10 minutes to gather Dean's belongings. (this was the same teacher that yelled my name out loud to hurry up and get out of the bathroom while I was giving Dean a change)

In the office the principal was 10 feet away on the phone but did not speak to me.
She was on the phone discussing Dean's exact 3 vaccinations in question.
As she spoke she never mentioned that his first 4 months of records were being reconstructed but rather that Dean never received those 3 vaccinations.

So far we have accounted for all but one shot and should have that in the mail or fax shortly.

It is still the decision of the principal that we as Dean's parents have been non compliant and that he remains the only child on the 'no progress' catagory while all the children without their shots remain in the 'in progress' catagory.

This is even after our doctor's office called her and told her of Dean's appointment to get another HepB shot even though it is not due for another 2 years.

I wonder why she is doing this?

My wife says after she made a federal case of this, she now following precise lawyer instructions even if it involves lieing and doing everything except the right thing.

Her latest twist is that Dean is the only child without complete documentation and that it is a greater risk than students who actually do not have all thier shots.

Dean has been very quiet.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 02:11 AM

Sorry about this, Don--and very upset, as well. The fact that one administrator told you to come in when the other didn't want you there shows that the school is severely disfunctional--about this point, I'd be thinking about the possibility of going to another school--

I think I'd call a lawyer that has worked with this kind of stuff before, to figure out what your options are--I am a bit concerned about how all this hysteria is going to affect Dean--

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 10:02 PM

Call a lawyer and the news papers etc. O.K. that's my sereious speil. The flip side is that you might have a strong case in court if you can stand being with lawyers that long. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 11:22 PM

These people obviously have no idea or interest in the harm that they might be doing to a small child.

Do you really want your son to go to a school with such a lack of feeling for their pupils.

I'm sure that Dean would be an asset to any decent school - why not try somewhere that has some idea of the worth of such a child, not the art of covering their own backs.

Subject: RE: BS: My son is expelled from school forever
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 08:35 AM

Dean bounced back with our outing to see Wallace and Grommit and the Curse of the Were Rabbit.

For the principal to work so hard to establish injustice and cruelty toward one child, makes a mockery of the Montgomery County school mission statements regarding the concern and care for each individual child.

Now that she has mis stated the facts to supervisors and underlings repeatedly, I have no confidence in her ability to rationaly access her own behavior or Dean's welfare.

People who aspire to authoratative jobs are often ego driven and choose their battles wisely to display their victory with pride.

I do not wish to advance her personal career at the expense of silently submiting to her mis statements about my child and our supposed non compliance to the law.