Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST,padgett (at home)
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 01:39 AM

I'm sure Pete Coe would be highly delighted and laughing his socks off at the above posting!!

What about Burl Ives, Shirley Abicair (spelling?), Julie Felix, but most importantly JOAN BAEZ a prolific recording artist

Nice to see Fred Jordan in the list!
What about Walter Pardon, Harry Cox, Sam Larner, and all the other traditional source singers

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Col K
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:27 PM

One name that seems to have been missed from many British Catters is the name Pete Coe. He has had great deal of influence on many people and has done a great deal to encourage youngsters to become involved in song, dance and music.
Martin Carthy has been mentioned by many and I cannot disagree with his name being put forward either.
How about people like Fred Jordan.He was very significant and so were many others who kept singing the songs of their fathers and grandfathers, without them the collectors, Cecil Sharpe and all would not have had anything to collect.
Being from the UK my ideas of significant are biased towards those names that I know,others from other countries will be similarly biased, but their suggestions are no more valid nor no less valid than mine.
I think that all of us who enjoy "Folk Music" should thank all of those people named in this thread for the contributions that they have made to our kind of music.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 06:43 PM

"Bob Dylan.... he also yanked the mainstream into folk music."

piffle! If he yanked them anywhere, it was to a pale imitation of one area of 'almost' folk...maybe the point is, the folk music, by its nature, is not IN the mainstream.

Obviously, there is no 'one' most anything, but most of the important figures have been noted.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Cool Beans
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 05:22 PM

Sounds like we need a nominee from each continent.
I don't know how influential Pete Seeger or A. Lomax has been in Britain, Ireland or Australia. In the US (where I am), Martin Carthy is a complete unknown, except to serious aficionados of folk music. Lonnie Donegan, if he's known at all, it's as that guy who sang "Rock Island Line" in the 1950s. Alan Lomax isn't exactly a household word here, either.
No disrespect is intended, but if we're talking about significance, shouldn't that significance resonate beyond a small circle of friends?

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 01:28 PM

Yes, Chris, but surely that must have happened BEFORE the 20th century i.e. folk music was being written down in the 19th century.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 11:49 AM

surely all the singers/musicians who created and kept the music going before anyone wrote it down/recorded it and argued about it would be the most important people in folk. they did it for the love of the music not for the credit of collecting/recording

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:41 PM

I've not read all the above postings, so what I propose may well have already been discussed, But here goes anyway:- If a nominated " most significent folkie" were taken out of the equation ( i.e.never existed) what effect would his/her absence have had the development of the Engish/Celtic/Americanfolk music movement? Now this question is not at all straight forward. For example, one could argue that if Cecil Sharp had not existed then we wouldn't have any folk movement, but surely somebody else would have taken up the cause. After all, the interested in national folk music in the 19th century was well established( weren't the Russians' first?) before Sharp got going.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 03:44 AM

Yes, I had mentally placed C# as 18th century, but true, he started in 1903. So I agree a case can be made for him, as it can for Lloyd, Coppers, and Hugill.

But as the (I think that is not too much) pivotal figure of English folk music for 40 years - still, I think Martin Carthy. Ask it the other way round. Remove him from the soup and scene from the 60s onwards, and just so much would have died or never been born. He has a connection to the research and historical side of folk music that few performers, and none of his calibre, can equal. Or put it another way, ask the public to imitate a folk singer and they immediately put finger in ear and sing through nose in the style in which he was so often seen in his early years - in short, they impersonate him. He is the archetype, the scholar, and the pinnacle.

MacColl of course was an influence, but I can't get past his falsity in pretending to be a different person, and of course despite his traditional work he is now really noted for his contribution as a singer-songwriter - not a folkie.

The other possible mention here might be the Young Tradition (they have to be considered together) who defined English vocal harmony in the 60s and whose sound still defines it to this day.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 02:27 PM

Come on! It can't be Bob Dylan. His involvement in "folk" music lasted just a few short years in the 1960s. After that it was rock and roll" plain and simple.He was a vast influence on that type of music but he was no longer involved in folk music other that an occasional rocked up ballad. As far as C. Sharp, is this thread about collectors of folk music or folk music performers?

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 04:49 PM

As an artist Carthy is high on the list but "signifcant" means something else.

There was full 100 years of 20th century. In the second half it has to be Lomax but RVW and Sharp must be on the list too.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 12:41 PM

Martin Carthy gets my vote. He is a living tradition; over forty years of playing and singing. His performances inspired both Dylan and Paul Simon. His early ballad singing and interpretive style is without flaw. Who else plays a melody guitar style such as his. Nic Jones came close but he has been off the scene for so long that Carthy has long since out distanced him. Carthy's voice and guitar are nearly always note for note together. "Death of Young Andrew" is a interpretive master piece! Who tells a dramatic tale as real and awesome as Carthy? He is an older gentleman now-has shifted his style-reinvented himself to accompany an older but refined mellow voice and still plays his guitar as a master. Listen to his guitar work on his newest CD "Waiting for Angels" It's wonderful!

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: just john
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 11:35 AM

Bob Dylan

Many have yanked folk music into the mainstream, but with his "going electric," he also yanked the mainstream into folk music.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 11:21 AM

"Some Australian greats -

singers - Declan Affley, martin whyndam-read (martin winding road to those who love him)" -

         and Martyn Windbag-Reed to those who don't!

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: mooman
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:58 AM

Bluesman actually...!

Max: for creating and maintaining The Mudcat Cafe

You are a scholar and a gentleman Sir!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:06 AM

you got to admit, it does have shades of that conversation between Tony and Gary in Men Behaving Badly - 10 best female arses on television......

a trifle ludicrous.....

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 06:59 AM

Mulligan and O'hare?

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 06:56 AM

Some Australian greats -

singers - Declan Affley, martin whyndam-read (martin winding road to those who love him) margaret roadnight, the fagans,cathie O'Sullivan, Judy Small Dave de Hugard,

musos - Jacko Kevins , Chris Kempster, Bob McInnes

musicians and collectors - John Meredith Rob Willis Alan Musgrave

and the redoubtable .. Bob Bolton.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST,padgett (at home)
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 05:02 AM

In terms of the English and I mean English finding and being pointed in the direction of their own song tradition the most important person standing at the turning point was Lonnie Donegan (in this I agree with Bert in a posting in 1999)

I have just heard a Radio 4 prog with Shirley Collins and her folk song association with Alan Lomax (I have also been present at a workshop she gave a couple of years ago) and give great credit to all the folk song collectors, without whom artists of the ilk of Martin Carthy, Tony Rose, Dave Burland, Nic Jones, Derek Brimstone, Martin Whyndam-Read, Peter Bellamy et al would have been hard pressed to find material
Most significant folkie Lonnie Donnegan (followed by William Appleby) remember him)
I remember sitting in my junior school listening to the radio in Barnsley singing 'and shall Trelawney live and shall Trelawney die here's 20,000 Cornish men shall know the reason why'

Many Sat mornings listening to Lonnie Donnegan and Rock Island line and the rest

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: ossonflags
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 04:01 AM

And what about ramblin sid rumpole?

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 07:42 PM

Pinky and Perky.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 03:24 PM

Though nobody ever called him a "folkie" and lived to tell about it, I'd have to throw in a vote for Bill Monroe. The influence of bluegrass music upon the larger folk music scene has been huge. Listen to a fair sampling of current US-based folk musicians who aren't considered bluegrass acts and you'll still hear a lot of bluegrass going on. Bluegrass has also served as a point of entry for many musicians who have ultimately wound up playing other styles. Most of the folks I know who play Irish or old-time music, myself included, cut their teeth on bluegrass. And we won't even talk about guys like Bela Fleck and David Grisman 'cause they ain't folk...

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: ossonflags
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 02:36 PM

it has to be Val Doonican,easy on the eye and on the ear.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:58 AM

"it simply has to be Martin Carthy.

I really am genuinely amazed to see only one nomination of him above. Quite simply, he is "the Man".


Well, I thought so too - EVERYONE but EVERYONE told me, so I had to believe it.

I so looked forward to seeing him.

I went - I was VERY disappointed

One man's meat.......... as they say

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 09:59 AM

well quite! Giok

really its a case of everyone to his goat, as our French cousins say.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 08:57 AM

I've a lot of sympathy for me old mat Steve Parkes' view expressed above, so we should probably award a Global Listeners' Prize, but my own nominations in the main category would be:

6. Alan Lomax
5. Cecil Sharpe
4. Ewan McColl
3. Pete Seeger
2. Woody Guthrie
1. Anon (aka Trad)

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 08:50 AM

There are so many people that I have thought of since I first posted, it's just impossible to answer.
Giok

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 08:16 AM

Well thanks guys for your unintelligent contributions to an otherwise sensible thread.
Giok

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 08:08 AM

Rolf Harris
Jake the Peg (with the extra leg)
Sun Arise
Tie Me Kangaroo Down Sport
Two Little Boys
Stairway to Heaven

the stylophone, the wobbleboard, the digeridoo

the beard

the drawings

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 05:17 AM

Mike Harding.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:51 AM

We are talking folk music here.

Who knows more traditional (ie folk) songs? No-one.
Who knows more traditional (ie folk) tunes? No-one.
Who has done more to show how to use the guitar (not a traditional folk instrument) in traditional folk music and song? No-one.
Who better understands or conveys the meaning of traditional (ie folk) music and song? No-one.

What else could he do? Are you asking if he is a singer-songwriter, I simply say that many may write in the style of folk music, but contemporary music, however excellent, is not folk. In what way may your so-called "giants" compare to him - in folk music?

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 03:35 AM

Richard as a fellow admirer of Martin Carthy, I must ask. Apart from singing and rearranging many good traditional tunes, and doing wonders with open tunings, what else has Martin done? He's very erudite and knowledgeable on the subject of folk music, a wonderful performer, and he's become an institution in his field. But compared to some of the giants mentioned before in this thread I don't think he qualifies for Folkie of the 20th Century.
Giok

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Frankham
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 04:37 PM

If you think of folk music as being a movement, then my ol' buddy Pete has to figure mightilly. If you think of folk music as being collectable and dispersed to the public, then Pete and Alan both figure. If you think of folk music as being all over the world, then, there are too many to count. If you think of folk music as the popularization of Appalachia then Doc and Jean.

One thing about Pete ya' gotta' know. He promoted many of the people through tireless energy such as Leadbelly, Woody, and Dylan. Pete championed Dylan when nobody much thought he was anything.

Alan, Ewan, A.L. Loyd, and many unsung heroes of folklore such as Archie Green, Kenny Goldstein, Roger Abrams, John Cohen and the beat goes on. This in addition to Sharp, Child and those who Sandy mentioned.

What about the record companies? Moe Asch. Sandy. The Solomans. Tom Clancy at Riverside.

Popularity? The K.T., Bud and Trav, P.P.and M and the folks who started all that....Weavers.

If you think of songwriting as being part of folk music, well then Woody because he was one of the first Singer/songwriters in this genre.

Blues? Where does it start and end? Robert Johnson, Blind Lemon, Lead, and yes IMV blues is folk music.

i think all these people should be recognized for their service
and inspiration and many more from other places.....

In short, there is no one Folkie that is more significant than others but the process is about people coming together to create a sum greater than it's parts.

Frank

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Cool Beans
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:16 PM

George Burns.
Oh wait, did you say Folkie? I thought you said Fogey.
Never mind.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:11 PM

I'm from England.

I think a case might be made for Bert Lloyd or for Hugill, or maybe for Bob Copper, or Mike Waterson, but at the end of the day there is really only one possible answer. And I mean that most sincerely, folks. For an in depth knowledge of and devotion to folk music correctly so-called, an inspirational performer, and a guitarist who exemplifies a genre more typically than any other (and a damn nice intelligent well informed bloke too), it simply has to be Martin Carthy.

I really am genuinely amazed to see only one nomination of him above. Quite simply, he is "the Man".

He is also the most significant Folkie of the 21st Century.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:20 PM

When I spotted this thread's subject, my first thought was "Why Dylan of course, hands down!" For "significance" to the wide outside world, Bob had to be it. (For me, anyway.)

After reading the many contributions, though, I'm willing to revise my vote. There'd be no Bob without Woody and Leadbelly and others before him, we wouldn't have known about them except for Mr. Lomax, etc., etc.

As someone who served both as a repository for past folklore and also as a performer who himself represented folk music to a large public, you have to go with Pete Seeger.

Of course, more than one or two individuals deserve credit, and I am glad that this thread revealed a few new (really, old) names to me I hadn't known before.

I can think of one significant omission from the world of Irish music: while several correspondants gave a nod to Christy Moore, don't believe anyone has mentioned Donal Lunny yet. Lunny has been involved in so many different projects, and almost every one has been a success in bringing the music he loves to the attention of a wider public. I suppose that, to some, this has been an effort at "modernization" or "commercialization," and therefore anathema, but I think the guy deserves all the credit in the world.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 01:09 PM

Been reading back through all these old posts, and apart from the question, 'Where have most of these posters gone?' There's been a lot of good and erudite stuff been posted.
The problem is the question in the title, which is unanswerable with a single name, especially when it comes to performers, as personal tastes bias us on that one.
I think that the collectors are the people for which we have the most to thank, and they often did different things in different countries. So I've got to go for, Cecil Sharp, and Ralph Vaughan Williams for the English side of the pond, Francis Childs, and Marjorie Kennedy Fraser for Scottish stuff. Lomax and Moses Asch spring to mind for US stuff, but I don't know enough about that side to be dogmatic about it.
Interesting thread though.
Giok

Subject: charles ives
From: GUEST,Andrea Heinz
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 12:02 PM

When did Charles Ives start composing. Who hired him to compose. What influenced him musically. What musical form is used.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:42 AM

It does, of course, depend on the what area you're looking at . . however I have to go for Lomax, because we'd almost certainly have been so much the poorer (in the music we know) without him. What really impresses is the breadth of his tastes . . Some of the European musics he loved (amongst the rest of collecting) still have only a tiny following in the UK, and a miniscule one in the US.

Of course, having recently heard Shirley Collins describe the recording trip she took with him through Southern USA in 1959/60 does rather underline this impression.

As for Irish music - the tragedy is that the world's image of Irish music (the boring "diddly-diddly" stuff) is such an apalling misrepresntation of that islands musical tradition . . but it's ridiculous to claim Ireland as some how apart from any other Folk tradition - although it may be distinguished by its folk revival starting earlier and having a greater political impetus that that of most of the rest of Europe (although, as is universally acknowledged, current Irish music actually had its birth in London . . )

Now - sort out the serious from the semi-serious in THAT lot!

G.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 07:24 AM

Agreed ... I think even ard mhacha might have difficulty not seeing eye to eye with you on your reply!

I tend to think from time to time that what I like is "important" and it probably is to me and to others who like what I like. But the Hearsay and Tweenies fans couldn't give a monkeys (and fans of those dayglo Muppets on angel dust can, and regularly do, fill stadia.)

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 07:08 AM

O.K. Every country has highly developed musical traditions. A week in say, Hungary with a tape recorder can produce interesting results. I think it's a bit daft to say "x is far and away better than y,z or any other letter". Yes, Irish music is great. So is English, Scots, Welsh, Scandinavian, Baltic etc etc.

All due repect to Ard Mhacha for feeling passionate about his heritage, but if I went round saying, for example "English Music is better than anything else ever", I'd get similar comments from other people who like different things.

The people who I know with the best tune repetoires are the ones who aren't fussy about country of origin, but play stuff from all over the world.

Cheers, EJ

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:52 AM

EJ ...

Care to elaborate?

Ard mhacha's comment may contain more than a grain of truth in the context in which it was delivered, just as your riposte might also have had more than a grain of truth given the context in which you delivered it.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:02 AM

Some nominations:

Bela Bartok. A.L.Lloyd. Maud Karpeles. Cecil Sharpe. George Butterworth.

Rising to obvious bait:

"Ireland with a population of around 5 million people has been by far way ahead of any other country when it come to folk music.-- Let that cat among the pigeons."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! you need a holiday mate.

EJ

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 05:31 AM

Whilst I would agree with the comment made by many in this thread that it's difficult/pointless to narrow in one individual, I think a member of the "Hall Of Fame" who deserves a mention is Captain Francis O'Neill who, in the "1001" and the "1850" and other works, "saved the harvest". Irish traditional musicians, even yet, owe the man a huge debt!

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:20 PM

Bob Schwarer, I was just scrolling down the thread, looking for the opportunity to nominate Moses Asch, when I say you had forestalled me. Well, anyway, "me too".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From:
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 07:39 PM

I have read all these. I think you are all wrong. The most significant is the people -the millions who sing and play and provide the platform for a few remarkable performers who would be nothing without the many ordinary 'folkies'. Folk music is not about star performers - it is about people who live music about living.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: pastorpest
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 07:59 PM

I find myself agreeing with people's choices to the many "greatest". I would like to add another name for the quality of her work in collecting and describing background and context for song after song. I think not just of her Canadian work but also beyond her own country with books like "Songs of Work and Protest". So I add the name of Edith Fowke. I often go to her books looking for material or refreshing myself with material I have not looked at for awhile or simply finding out "What did Edith Fowke say about this song?"

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: toadfrog
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM

I was about to quietly agree that it had to be Pete Seeger, shut up and let people more knowledgeable than me hold forth. But query: To what extent are popularizers more "significant" than collectors or sources of genuine songs. Suppose someone is a real crowd pleaser, and attracts a gazillion fans. Why is he/she more "significant" than someone who leaves a significant legacy for the future? How can anyone say that (say) Bob Dylan or Judy Collins are more "significant" "folkies" (whatever that means) than Leadbelly or Ewan McColl.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 05:42 PM

Amazing thread to the extent that this little islands contribution to folk music, seems to have been overlooked. OK, i`m being parochial and why not, Ireland with a population of around 5 million people has been by far way ahead of any other country when it come to folk music.-- Let that cat among the pigeons. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Big Tim
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 03:41 PM

"All these people that you mention, yes I know them they're quite lame, I had to rearrange their faces and give them all another name". Bob Dylan's the man.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Biskit
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 12:54 PM

Joe was right on the money Pete Seegar is deffinatly the thread that wound around them all and brought it all together. Though Woody Guthrie, and Ramblin' Jack Elliot are still my favorites. ~Biskit~