Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:12 AM

I have to reiterrate to some extent.

Cecil Sharpe, Alan Lomax, Frank and Anne Warner.

Don

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST,chrisj
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 11:57 PM

Everywhere I've travelled in the English-speaking world I have found that among the best-loved folkies are The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem. Their significance I am sure, is acknowledged outside the Irish diaspora as well as inside. Anyone who had the thrill of attending one of their live performances was never to forget it.

Its true that some traditional music people in Irish circles looked askance at their tendency to up the tempo on some songs but they were a huge influence on the vigorous expansion of Irish music and the next generation of Clancys is continuing the trend.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 01:39 PM

The men of yon forest, they ask it o' me
How many strawberries grow in the salt sea?
I answer them back, with a tear in me ee
How many ships sail in the forest?

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: marty D
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 01:15 PM

Maybe not the best, or the most trustworthy (the HUAC stuff) but who was more widely heard than Burl Ives? I think that's pretty significant.

marty

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: John P
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 01:01 PM

John Twomey said earlier in this thread, "There can't be just one "most significant folkie": that's antithetical to the folk process, which remains largely an ongoing collaborative effort from time immemorial to the present." A couple of other people have said similar things since. I was amazed that this thread went through 50-some posts before anyone brought this up. One of the things I like about the folk music scene is its essential noncompetitiveness. We don't really have to worry about who is the best, or the first, or the most influential, or what the definitive version of any song is. Those sorts of things don't really apply to basic nature of folk music.

If the question was about who influenced you the most, it would show us where different people came from and would be interesting. But trying to decide who was the most influential in general is, again, "antithetical to the folk process".

If anyone is interested in who influenced me the most, I'd have to say Martin Carthy, Gabriel Yacoub, Alan Stivell, John Renbourn, and lots of Appalachian and blues musicians.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 12:16 PM

Stan Rogers and Me.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 10:27 AM

One might just as well ask which is the single most significant grain of sand on the beaches of this spinning globe ??!!

It just, simply, does not matter !

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 10:14 AM

"Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?"

No one alone!!

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 09:59 AM

How long is a piece of string? Well the answer (by comparison) is a lot easier - "from one end t' t'other"
As Newton said in the context of science - (I'm sure I will be corrected) "if I stand out it is merely because I am standing on the shoulders of others"
Folkies have more than one dimension, we have breadth and density and can take the macro and the micro view.
who is most significant in all dimensions? First define your dimensions - and allow me to argue about them.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST,Les/ Manchester uk
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 04:49 AM

An earlier contribution made a good point about individuals being important but not essential. Whatever folk is it has lasted because people like it, sing it and play it. In a century of mass communication Guthrie, Lomax, Sharpe, McCall, Seeger, Moore and all those other people have made important contributions.

I would like to two anothers because they have shown how much more life and diversity exists in the music. The man who with all his fellow musicians created Fairport Convention, Steeleye Span, The Etchigham Steam Band, various Albion Bands and lots of other projects not least of which the mighty 'Morris On' - Ashley Hutchins, and by the same argument through Planxty, etc. etc. Christie Moore

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: chip a
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 03:10 PM

Bob, Pete & Alan/John

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 11:57 AM

I'd certainly put Martin Carthy in my list (and, quite separately of course Norma Waterson) but I've a sinking feeling that their influence outside the UK may be fairly limited. A lot depends on how 'significant' fits with 'well-known'. I would expect a survey of the-man-in-the-street would show thousands of times as many people recognise Dylan's name than Carthy's, and you can't influence people too easily if they don't know who you are. But in my case, the vote would be Carthy rather than Dylan.

I would have to include the fairly anonymous radio broadcasters in the 50's who made people like the Copper family well-known (again in the UK!) if we were talking about pure significance ...

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 11:20 AM

Good Grief...

Can you spell

C-A-R-T-H-Y???????

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 02:07 AM

Well now, and so let me see
With most of you I might agree
Except of course you Dylan fans
He was commercial in his plans

Lomax found the real thing
which got our hero Pete to sing
Brought obscurity to our vision
Let the meanings speak tradition

Ewan found the auld free songs
Full of lively rights and wrongs
Wrote a few, collected many
Sang with Peggy See... aplenty

But cast my vote now if you will
For Charles Seegar loud and shrill
For had he not encouraged singing
His kids might be as bells not ringing...

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 01:20 AM

Maybe this thread will be of interest to now, what with all the Obits and the requests for 50's-60's folk "hits."

~S~

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Susan A-R
Date: 15 Jan 99 - 11:52 PM

Pete, Lomax, Woody, Victor, Ewan, Jean, Malvena, . . .

As for Dylan, I like some of his more straightforward stuff, but, for the most part, I guess I'm just not that introspective, and he's always sounded a tad too much like bullwinkle moose for me to manage it well.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Dave T
Date: 15 Jan 99 - 09:44 PM

The first names that sprang to mind were Woody Guthrie & Alan Lomax. That being said, I have to agree with all the others who have argued that there isn't any ONE most significant "folkie". After my first gut reaction, I thought of so many others; some have even been mentioned. I admit to being influenced by American "folkies", so in addition to Wooody & Alan and all the rest...
Doc Watson - just for being Doc Watson
Rev. Gary Davis - preaching, singing, playing... ya gotta love it!!!

Dave T

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From:
Date: 15 Jan 99 - 05:09 PM

There can't be just one "most significant folkie": that's antithetical to the folk process, which remains largely an ongoing collaborative effort from time immemorial to the present.

With that said, and thinking about musicians, how about Robert Johnson, Jimmie Rodgers, and Hank Williams. How to measure their infulence on those who followed?

Not to offend Pete Seegar fans, but I consider him more of an academic than a folksinger. I respect him and like him, but I respect and like Mr. Rodgers too: they're both elite Ivy Leaguers.

Mrs. Gurthrie and Dylan both came up in the way more traditional folkies do and in a straight up vote I'd put the odds in favor of Mr. Dylan winning this vote.

But each of us must have one "most significant" and that would be the one who opened the door the widest to this world and made us feel the most. When I was just a wee one, my father would sit with me in the dark, and we'd listen to a folk music show on the radio; we didn't yet have a TV. It was Pete Seegar and the Weavers,at that time, that I remember. My older brother let me play his 78's and he had many of Hank Williams hits, and my favorites were "Howling at the Moon, and "Lonesome Whistle". Later I loved the Kingston Trio and Peter, Paul and Mary, but I kept seeing the name Bob Dylan as author of some of their best songs. When I bought "The Freewheeling Bob Dylan" that was it for me. This was living folk music that trancended anything I'd heard before. He still does it for me. I'm sorry for those who don't get it. It's like not being able to appreciate Picasso in all his various stages and mediums.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jan 99 - 07:32 AM

Thread is still entertainin' !!!

Writing credit debate also results in tie.

Jack who's Jack...nicely put without offense.

Next...................catspaw

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 15 Jan 99 - 03:40 AM

I remember hearing a story about Francis McPeake, who wrote 'Will ye go lassie go'. Joan Baez recorded it, and every year after that he got a royalty cheque. Then one year the cheques stopped. When he queried this, he was told that someone had found an old recording of the McPeakes sinigin the song, which was credited to 'Trad', so - no royalties. (At least they didn't ask for their money back!) He had to explain that he wrote it at a time when it wasn't fashionable to write your own folk songs.

Dave Campbell(Ian Campbell's father) had a similar tale. Alex Campbell (no relation!) heard him sing 'The Dark' and asked him for the words. After Alex recorded the song, Dave got a cheque every year. He said he always meant to tell Alex it was a Trad song and he hadn't actually written it himself, but could never seem to get around to it!

Then there was Al Jolson, who claimed that his performance was just as much a part of the creative process as writing and composing: he always insisted on being included in the credits (and the royalties!). Sounds suspiciously like the folk process to me ...

Steve (just the once)

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 15 Jan 99 - 12:24 AM

I may be "in the game," but I've never tried to own folk music. Even when Frank Proffitt recorded for me, we only obtained copyrights on songs he had actually written. The traditional stuff was credited to "trad."

Rick is right, however, when he observes that a lot of the big-time folk acts of the great folk-scare era who were recording for major labels were encouraged to claim authorship or, at the least, "arrangement" rights in order to protect the label from lawsuit. Someone once told me how many claims to copyright existed in the Library of Congress' Copyright Office on the ballad of Barbara Allen, but I've forgotten the figure. There are a lot of 'em!

I do recall looking through one of Oscar Brand's books and reading at the bottom of every page that copyright was claimed for "new words and music by Oscar Brand" on such songs as "Yankee Doodle," only I couldn't spot any of the new words and, while I'm not a musical expert, neither could I see much change in the melody. Publisher's choice of self-protection, I assume.

I will admit to having obtained a copyright on a number of Sara Cleveland's versions of her lovely traditional ballads and songs. They were grouped into an "Opus" and filed under one copyright claim. This was done to avoid their being exploited by commercial performers who might perceive their beauty and record them without giving credit to their source. This, of course, after the "Tom Dula" experience of Frank Warner and Frank Proffitt. Proffitt didn't write the song, of course, but the version performed by the Kingston Trio (for which Dave Gard claimed authorship -- and he didn't write it either!) was based on the version Warner had collected from Proffitt in 1938. I was determined that nothing of that sort would happen to Sara Cleveland, if I could do something to avoid it. The decision to do that has never bothered me, since I had no intention of exploiting the material commercially, but was determined that no one else should either.

Here's another interesting example. Jim Waters wrote the tune for "The Great Silkie" that almost everyone knows while he was a student at MIT. Most people have assumed it was a traditional tune, as Pete Seeger did when he put the words to "I Come and Stand at Every Door" to that tune. When Pete learned that Jim had written the tune and assigned the copyright to Folk-Legacy, he immediately arranged for royalties to come to us. No one could have been more honorable! On the other hand, not a penny was ever forthcoming for the Joan Baez recording, even though the introduction to the ballad in her Ballad Book (is that the title?) states that the tune is by a James Waters. Different strokes, folks. That's the way it is in the world of "music as commodity."

Sandy

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From:
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 09:04 PM

Re: appropriating melodies---it seems to me that there was a lot of that going around in 50s & 60s. Performers and groups would make a slight change in the melody, almost imperceptably, or rearrange or reword stanzas of P.D. songs and take credit for the song. I believe that many of the top acts often did so. I know that when I cross- refence the songs from my collection (I have 6 - 8 versions of some songs) that the performing group took a credit. His being in the biz, Sandy Paton could probably explain it better than I.

John

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: rick fielding
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 08:53 PM

After reading your posting on Dylan's "lying for personal gain", Sandy, I thought I'd take a quick look through some of my vinyl (them's records, youngsters) and hoo-boy! An AWFUL lot of folkies have been doing exactly the same kind of lying! And since the only ones I bothered checking on are folks with "legit" reputations, I've come to the conclusion that Dylan fits right into the tradition. What I doubt I'll be able to find however, is the admition in print that Dylan gave in an early 60s "Sing Out". Roughly quoted he declared to Irwin Silber, "...the tunes have already been out there for a long while...I just pull 'em in..." or something along those lines. My point is, that the record companies and/or publishers did the "claiming". Oh, and the only other folkie to have said in print that he definitely used existing tunes (that I've heard of) was Woody Guthrie. The one song book that I just looked at with Guthrie stuff, said "words and music, Woody Guthrie".

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 06:53 PM

If the objections to Lomax are based on his questionable ethics, the same must be applied to Dylan. Does anyone have time to list all of the the various tunes claimed as "words and music by Bob Dylan" for which he may have made new words, but he certainly had no right to claim the tunes? I'll start the ball rolling with "Nottamun Town," "Patriot Game," and "Leaving of Liverpool." Using a traditional tune for a new set of words is one thing, and quite a traditional activity. Guthrie did it all the time. Claiming ownership of melodies one did not compose, as Dylan did, is, simply put, lying for personal advantage. I find it offensive.

I'm sure this must have been the subject of an earlier thread. Am I right, Joe?

Sandy, the curmudgeon.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 06:43 PM

Thanks for the clips, Dale.

Dry and Dusty it wasn't. Great stuff.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Jack (Who is called Jack)
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 05:11 PM

This is not intended to offend.

But of all the performers/writers/composers mentioned on this thread, the one that never caught on with me is Bob Dylan, and I can never really explain why. I know that he's a folkie's folkie, having heard people I really love and respect-like Ritchie Havens and others-speak in awestruck reverent tones about his songs. I know that for many many people that got pulled into a love of folk music during the '60s, Dylan was and remains one of the main beacons that drew them in. He was a good and prolific songwriter with and extensive discography. Yet for all the testimony I've heard from so many sources touting Dylan as one of the "Great Minds and Influences of our Time", I've never felt all that influenced, by him or his music, at least not in the way that I've been influenced by others like Rev. Gary Davis, or Jean Ritchie, or Ewan McColl, or Woodie Guthrie. Somehow I never feel with Dylan the kind of thing I feel when I listen to an old Recording of Tommy Johnson singing Big Road Blues, or Mississipi John Hurt singing just about anything, or when listening to a shape note choir.

Having said that, I wonder whether part of it is due to an iconoclastic streak in my own personality. I hate being told what I'm supposed to like or believe, and Dylan was so adopted as an icon of whatever it was we lived through in the 60's, (revolution, counterculture, awakening or just too many adolescents in a country with too much money at the time. I dunno, it always seemed more conformist than its rhetoric). I've always felt like a character in The Emperors New Clothes with regard to Bob. You know, "The Emperor is wearing his wonderful new garments, but they're magical and can only be seen by the wise. What! You mean YOU can't see them?".

Well No. They may be there but no.

Again, I make no claim that I'm right, its just how I feel.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: catspaw49catspaw49
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 07:51 AM

Geez, what a GREAT thread!!!! I keep reading along and saying, "Yeah, good point" to damn near everything. Virtually every post gets me off to another line of thinking. Steve, your point on were/was is well taken and is the thing I was trying to say earlier...we "owe a lot, to a lot." Plus the Lomax debate {both sides won on my scorecard}, influence of teachers, camp, family, etc. Every poster has made excellent points!

Maybe we go with Jack's Hall of Fame thing. Or maybe a category thing within it. {In which case I'd also like to nominate the hundreds of Irish Americans who kept the Hammered Dulcimer alive in this country} Maybe we should nominate The Mudcat here.

Or maybe we just need to keep singing the songs and telling the tales and playing the tunes and passing on the heritage that has been delivered to us...adding as we go.

GREAT THREAD!!! catspaw

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Steve ParkesSteve Parkes
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 05:56 AM

In my hippie days (mostly Saturdays & Sundays in '69-'70) this would have been considered a question that may not have a meaning. It's a very Western Hemisphere sort of question, isn't it? I apologise for getting philosophical, but it doesn't do any harm in small doses.

Dear old Alex Campbell used to say 'This is a folk song, and if you folk don't sing, it ain't gonna work!'. Folk music isn't like, say, opera or pop, which is created and presented to us. It's something that lives in us and propagates through us; all the songs and tunes were once written by someone, but then they took on a life of their own and became part of the tradition. However long you spend singing or playing to yourself in your bedroom, however much you love your music, it will never get out and go anywhere until you bring it to us. What I'm trying to say is that we are just as important for listening to Folk as are the Lomaxes, the Guthries, the Sharps, the Coppers – everyone is a part of the process, whether we create music, perform it or just love it – it wouldn't work if just one of these things is missing. If I can borrow a well-known analogy, it's like sowing seed: when everything comes together just so, the corn grows. I'm certainly not trying to deny the importance of individuals in all this, but it might make better sense to think of 'who were' rather than 'who was'.

Ah, I wish I had the Gift of the Gab like some of you guys! I'm sorry you have to put up with my rambling and incoherence just so I can share my thoughts.

Steve

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: McMusicMcMusic
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 02:18 AM

I would have to split my vote 3 ways: Woody Guthrie, Pete Seegar, and Ewan McColl.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Dale RoseDale Rose
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 02:16 AM

To illustrate, here is a clip of Dry and Dusty compliments of CD Universe. I could not find The Scotch Musick, My Prettiest Little Gal is Gone, or Nancy's Got a Pretty Dress On from Ozark Frontier, recorded in 1959. A number of songs from the album are sampled on the various sites, but none of his. For something quite nice from the album though, check out Bookmiller Shannon on frailing banjo, playing Buffalo Gals compliments of Music Boulevard. He is another performer who I missed meeting by a few years, but whose influence is still being felt here in the Ozarks, as is Morrison's. About a year ago, I was fortunate to hear (and tape) Richard Morrison playing Dry and Dusty. It was a stirring moment~~doesn't have all that much to do with Lomax, but worth mentioning, I think.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Dale RoseDale Rose
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 01:46 AM

It is difficult to discuss the Lomax influence (and considerable it is) without bringing up the negatives as well. I am trying to choose my words carefully, and about the things I know best. Take his Southern Journey, Volume 7, Ozark Frontier as an example. Anyone with any expertise in Ozark Music of the era which he recorded could tell you that he did not necessarily choose the very best examples to record. In fact, it would seem that in some cases, the poorer the playing, the more likely he was to choose it as representative, which it wasn't.

A case in point is the fiddle playing of Apsie Morrison. In his prime, Morrison and his twin brother, Abbie, were truly fantastic. Check this out on Echoes of the Ozarks, Volume 1, County 3506. Listen to their renditions of Dry and Dusty and Ozark Waltz, recorded in 1930 when the brothers were 53 and in the prime of their lives~~pure magic. Then listen to the songs recorded by Lomax, but please do not accept these examples of an old man long past his prime as indicative of what is considered to be good fiddle playing in Arkansas or for that matter, even a small fraction of what Apsie Morrison was capable of long years before. If Lomax was trying to honor Morrison for his achievements, OK, I can accept that, but please don't tell me that it was because he thought it was good. I mean absolutely no disrespect to Apsie Morrison; I truly love his playing, and deeply regret that he and his brother were not recorded more extensively due to the Depression.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 12:18 AM

On the Lomax thing. Is there any who know that someone in particular that's complained that they were expolited in an unfare way. Muddy Waters, Vera Hall, Jelly Rool Morton, W.C. Handy & many many more were first recorded &/or exposed (expolited?) by Lomax & made a living by playing what they love, what would've been worst is that they played some roadside juke joint till death, starvation & obscurity took them & buried them unknown along side of their music. As far as Leadbelly doing a bit of driving, good for him, I'm sure he felt a hell of alot better off riding with the Lomaxs rather than riding in Bud Russell's wagon "Black Betty". I don't think the any of the cons regreted him coming in to record & offer them a reprieve from the sun to sit & sing, have a smoke & look at someone who thought that what they did was worth more than a lashing. I don't think that many realize that in those days Lomax was taking quite a risk to himself & also to the people that didn't have much a little meant a lot, even if only a cup of coffee. Many, in the world of music, have rode the coat tails of others to notoriety but none have given back as much to those same people & cultures. Woody was first pushed into light by Lomax, Seeger sang his way to fame on songs that Lomax collected, Ennis & MacColl got jobs putting folk music on the BBC with the help of Lomax, Leadbelly got from prison to stage with his help, when Bessie Jones wanted to give her culture exposure she was assisted & sheltered in New York City by ....yup, Lomax, ask the present day Georgia Sea Island Singers how they feel about the name Lomax. Sandy, even though (& appropriately) you won't say what, I'd like to hear it later (maybe at NEFFA), it may take him a peg or so down in my eyes but that's not to much when I've got him pegged for doing so much. Barry on the defense

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 12:16 AM

Yep, Dan, you have shown your wisdom again. I will amend my nomination (which I still stick with) to include my family, grandparents and all the old Mick's that sat and had sessions and let a little red headed kid sit and soak it up.

God be good to 'em.

Mick

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: CW Hose
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 12:04 AM

Bob Dylan has certainly touched more lives or broke more ground in the second half of the century than any musician I can think of, save the Beatles and Elvis. No one wrote like Bob Dylan. No one combined poetry, music and social commentary as poignantly as Dylan. He's an American Original, kind of an abstract Shakespeare.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 11:39 PM

Keeping with my USA chauvanism, Harry Smith is not the most significant Folkie, but perhaps one of the most overlooked. I recently purchased his "Anthology Of American Folk Music." I was stunned by how many songs I knew (but done by someone else).

I was wafted back to the early '60's, when the "folk scare' had just begun (for me, at least). Harry collected many artists who were then "rediscovered" by others and then recorded. He helped capture the period that followed Lomax and inspired many to save music whose practitioners were nearing the end of their years.

I think this thread speaks clearly that it takes many hands to achieve the task of preserving a music that is often unrecorded, unwritten, and otherwise undocumented. As for Lomax and his faults, there are not many angels out there. Most of us toads have warts, but we keep croaking anyway, and out croaking is important.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 09:04 PM

For Dan Keding: Of course you're right, Dan. Caroline's introduction to the music was an enlightened 7th grade English teacher who played Carl Sandberg records. She recalls hearing "I'm sad and I'm lonely, my heart it will break. My sweetheart loves another and I wish I was dead." She was struck by the realism, especially compared with "I'm gonna buy a paper doll that I can call my own..." and comparable drivel.

My own introduction was a guy I worked the harvest with, although he didn't know they were supposed to be called "folksongs." They were just the songs he knew. We sang together, with me doing the tenor harmony, from the Larned wheat fields to the Nebraska border. Later I met the guy who told me they were folksongs, but, shoot, he'd been to college.

For Aldus: You make a very good point. If we were voting for the most ethical folkie of the century, I'd have to change my vote. I've heard horror stories for years about how Lomax treated informants and ,yes, actually exploited them (notice my earlier reference to the exploitation of Leadbelly). I even have a few confirmed tales myself, but would not choose to relate them here. The ethical question, however, does not detract from the tremendous and undeniable influence of Lomax's work. He may have taken advantage of his blues singers, etc., but without his field recordings, we might never have heard them at all. A damnable situation, perhaps, but a realistic one.

But , for heaven's sake, don't give up your ethical position; it's a worthy one!

Sandy

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Dan Keding
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 08:17 PM

I agree with many of the names so far, especially what you mentioned Art. One aspect of this is the unsung (pardon the pun) hero. This is the person you first heard who turned you on to folk music. Maybe it was one of the greats already mentioned or maybe it was a singer in a folk bar. Perhaps it was a music teacher who loved folk music and played it for their class. Maybe a song leader at camp. This would be each of ours most significant and thank the Lord they came around when they did. Dan

Subject: To Rick Fielding
From: A former Torontonian
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 01:21 PM

I read somewhere else in Mudcat that you host an acoustic music show in Toronto. I escaped From T.O. to Whitby, I have listened to the CJRT folk show for many years. It has introduced me to a lot of great music. I must admit that I preferred it when Joe Lewis hosted, I found it to have a broader scope of folk music.

I would certainly like to check out your show, when and where is it on?

Steve Latimer

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Aldus
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 12:35 PM

There are many who come to mind. However, I don"t feel that anyone even comes closeto Bob Dylan. He made us aware of the power of music in a way that few have, before or since. He also taught us that "folk" music is modern, relevent and part of our world in way that much other music is not. He also, I thought, ended that foolish and useless arguement about what is "Folk". God Bless Bob. I would also have to suggest Dr. Helen Creighton (not Heather) as someone to whom many of us owe a great debt in preserving much of the music of Nova Scotia. Cecil Sharpe...yes,yes, yes....near the top of my list as well. I hate to end on a negative note,.. but I am surprised to see Alan Lomax mentioned. I think what ever good he may have done has been tarnished by his relentless exploitation of blues and traditional musicians.

Thanks, great thread

Aldus

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: rick fielding
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 12:07 PM

To catspaw49. Betcha' dollars to donuts that both Pete and Alan would pick Lomax!

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Jack (Who is called Jack)
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 10:39 AM

How about a Hall of fame ballot like they have in baseball.

Everyone gets one ballot and can include up to 10 names, although less than 10 is permissible. Criteria for admission is appearance on 75% of the ballots cast in a single election, i.e. 3 out of four voters put the person down on the ballot.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 09:40 AM

Victor Jara

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Zorro
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 09:34 AM

Pete Seeger!

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Bert
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 09:25 AM

The problem with reading this thread is that one tends to agree with every posting. So I propose that we change the title to...

Most significant Folkies of 20th Century?

Bert.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 06:41 AM

I'd like to nominate W.C. Handy, who brought an obscure Black American style to light.. the Blues. Not only did he elevate this musics profile, but his early arrangements/compositions were important contributions to the creation of jazz, an "art music" which still has direct links to it's folk roots.

Frank i.t.s.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 03:50 AM

After reading your comments 3 times Art, I think I get your point!!! But you are right. I keep reading these posts and find myself agreeing with everybody (though I still vote with Joe) and that's what makes folk so great.

I was also interested in your comments regarding Jean. Segments of folk also have their "champions" and each of them is arguably the most significant. Interestingly, I bet all of them would attribute some of the credit or whatever to someone else; in Jean's case, perhaps John Jacob Niles.

I wonder who Lomax, Seeger, etc. might pick? This is a great thread...I'm going to be boring some people around here for some time to come. catspaw

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 01:09 AM

In keeping with my reputation for vassscccilation & mispellling stufff) I cannot settle on one person!

As a performer who brought the music to so very many, I must choose Pete.

As the collector who brought so much to Pete Seeger, I must choose A.Lomax.

As the one person who brought Southern Appalachian mountain music (and the MOUNTAIN DULCIMER) to prominence I must choose Jean Ritchie.

As the person who set the standard for writing songs that were most like the story songs & traditional stylings, Woody Guthrie is the one.

As the revival singer of traditional (and other) songs who is to my mind the most significant, I must choose Michael Cooney.

As the single person who was BOTH the academician as well as being a wonderful purveyer of the music for so very many, I must choose the recently retired former head of the ARCHIVE OF AMERICAN FOLKSONG At The Library Of Congress, Joe Hickerson.

As the most significant person for me, personally, I must choose Sandy Paton! (Caroline & David & Robin Paton & Lee Haggerty also.

The blues singer who most communicated with me was Lightnin' Hopkins.

The elderly mentor who influenced me most is Paul Durst, the totally unknown Wobbly hobo singer and fiddler I tape recorded back in 1960---when he was 93. Paul, if he is still out there riding the shiny irons, is now 132 years old...

Ewan MacColl & Bert Lloyd & Martyn Wyndham-Read & Lou Killen & Alan Mills & Johnny Carignan--all incandescent singers (except Johnny--a, no, "THE" fiddler)

The guitarists whose styles were the most accessible, and most influenced the pickers of this century were, for me my cohorts, Elezabeth Cotten and Mississippi John Hurt.

And there are so very many others----the forementioned folks are only the tip o' the iceburg.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Bo
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 12:59 AM

My first thought was Pete Seeger, who himself was never alone in his love of folk. I think you have to understand these people as families, closely tied dreamers.

To talk of Seeger in isolation from the rest of the Weavers or from Lomax, or from Guthrie might elevate him but isolate him as well. Even If his were our most seen efforts I dont think his was a solitary strength.

I'd like to make mention of

Christy Moore, over in the UK Edith Fowke,Heather Creighton, Ian & Silvia in Canada Stan Rogers though he is not strictly folk (My Canadian Bias if you will) I also think Paul Robeson should be mentioned in these circles.

And I know it's trite but 'Mum', 'Dad' or '____' whoever was close enough to you folks to sing in the car on holidays or in the kitchen. Especially if they really sang well and loved what they were doing.

Sorry if this scuttles the debate but I think that we at the media-crazy end of the century have huge problems understanding the strikes, depression, wars etc... of the earlier century. Significance is certainly not measured in album sales alone nor need it be tied specifically to music. What do people think of the folk elements of protest to warfare in our century, the support civil rights got from gospel. Someone mentioned they didn't like Pete Seeger's politics, well dont forget some of the things he lived through\saw.

bo

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Don Meixner
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 10:55 PM

Hard to choose just one. So I won't.

Carl Sandburg, Cecil Sharpe, Allan Lomax, Ferde Grofe, and P. Domain.

Don Meixner

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 10:45 PM

Yes Sandy!!! Almost into his 90's & still out in the musical forefront of what he calls Global Styles & his research into language-song-culture, Lomax is now as he was 70 yrs ago in a field with few others sure to be followed. Check out this site. Barry

http://worldmusic.miningco.com/msub30.htm