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How Do You Learn By Ear
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Subject: How Do You Learn By Ear? From: LilyFestre Date: 24 Oct 05 - 03:40 PM I am wanting to learn how to play by ear...I have admired that trait in others for years. I know it's something I'm going to have to play with and have some patience with, but aside from that and listening to lots of music, does anyone have any suggestions as to go about this? Michelle |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Mary Humphreys Date: 24 Oct 05 - 03:46 PM If you go to tune sessions where people play through tunes three times then move on to another tune, try listening the first time through, then quietly playing whatever bits you have picked up the next time through, and even more the thrid time through. Keep going to sessions, and each time you will learn more of the tunes. You might spot after a while, that tunes have recognisable chunks that come in other tunes - repeated phrases and such like. Once your fingers have got used to playing the phrase in one tune, it is really easy to play that same phrase in another. it's like a musical alphabet, where the letters can be arranged in any order to make new words, but once you know the alphabet, it gets a lot easier. And beware - it all takes a lot of time, but is great fun learning1 |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: GUEST,Martin Gibson Date: 24 Oct 05 - 03:47 PM I learned by ear when I was 12 years old. After I learned some chords I would play along with some records (Kingston trio, actually) which were loaded with 3 chord songs. I would do this by sliding my capo up the neck to first establish what key a song was in. then I would try to play along. Then (and this is where the ear comes in) I would LISTEN where the drone pitch changed. The drone pitch is the same as the chord and when you heard the change, this is where the chord changed (usually to a 4th chord or a 5th chord) I would literally hum the drone pitch with the chord until the drone pitch (and the chord itself) needed to change. It works. Hum the pitch of the chord. Listen for the pitch to change. The chord changes there. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: GUEST,Giok Date: 24 Oct 05 - 03:49 PM Careful how you go about it or you could end up in dire trouble, and you don't want dire ear do you? G.. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Beer Date: 24 Oct 05 - 03:53 PM I think it may be something you are born with. I come from a very large family and I think that there may be just one of us who can read music. One thing I use to do to improve my "ear" was to hit any object that would produce a sound. I would take a guess as to what key the sound was in then I would go to the key board and see if I was correct. It is a lot of fun and especially if you can do it with someone. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 24 Oct 05 - 03:54 PM This is a challenging thread title. Having learned everything I play and all the harmonies I sing by ear, I forget that playing by ear can seem to be an insurmountable task for some people. I have a friend who is a wonderful piano player, who really wants to be able to play by ear. He's finding it extremely difficult. I don't think I'll have a lot to offer on this topic, but I think it's a very worthy one. My attitude in music, and often in life is "I wonder what happens if you do this?" That doesn't work well with dynamite and a match, but it's worked well for me in music, and many other areas of life. Maybe just "messing around" can be elevated to an art form? It usually works for me. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: CarolC Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:02 PM For me it's a bit automatic. If I hear a tune often enough, eventually, I will learn it well enough to whistle. And if I can whistle it, I can play it on any instrument on which I can play a scale. If it's not automatic for you, maybe you just need to hear a tune more times than some other people before you learn it. Back when I used to attend weekly jam sessions, I would take a tape recorder with me and tape them (every week). Then I would listen to the tunes I wanted to learn over and over until I knew them. Sometimes I have to replay a particular passage over and over again, while playing just that passage until I have it down, if the passage is complicated or difficult. Learning by ear has its good points and its bad points from my perspective. There are tunes that I want to learn exactly as they were written. Those tunes I try to use sheet music to learn. Other tunes, it isn't as important to me whether or not I learn it exactly as written, or maybe it's old and has many variations. Those, I don't mind learning by ear. Exception to this is chords. I am only able to learn melodies by ear, and sometimes very basic chords. If I want to learn a complicated chord progression, I need sheet music. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: katlaughing Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:03 PM Do you sing or play an instrument? If you sing and want to learn to play an instrument by ear, sing the songs you know by heart. As you do so, pick out the tune on your instrument and practice it over and over. It may sound a bit simple as an approach, but it is one way to start, at least. I was fortunate to learn by ear from my parents and siblings playing by ear and by music and also in that I started violin and piano lessons when I was eight. I spent most of my adult years playing with music, classical mostly, until I came to Mudcat and started remembering a lot of the old tunes mom and dad played, etc. I found it easy to improv and play the dulcimer by ear and now have done the same with the fiddle. I didn't think I'd EVER be able to do that on the fiddle as I was so classically oriented. Still, I'd have to feel a lot more confident before I tried to jam with anyone as I have never had a chance really to practice that...it's been a fairly solitary thing for many years. Have fun and good luck! Great thread, btw. kat |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: LilyFestre Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:03 PM I should have mentioned that I play the fiddle.... Michelle |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Grab Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:58 PM Can you hum/whistle a tune after hearing it on the radio? If so, it's probably just a matter of practise. If not, you may be one of the unlucky few who aren't born with it. Being a beginner in the tune-learning stakes myself, I can say that's it's easier learning by ear when everyone else is playing slowly! :-) So forget those buggers who play everything at 200mph - they're no damn use. Whitby FF had a great idea which was a "reasonable-pace tune session". Graham. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: GUEST,Ed Date: 24 Oct 05 - 05:12 PM Play along with the radio/TV/CDs etc. as much as you can. Get an understanding of scales and chord progressions (if you don't already) and keep practising. It will come eventually. Good luck. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Tootler Date: 24 Oct 05 - 05:14 PM Like many things musical, practice is important. I got involved in playing traditional music about a year ago and at first I found the learning by ear very difficult. I had been playing from music for many years and this was very different. I am quite surprised how much I have improved in that year, and now when a go to a session, I can have a fair crack at a tune that I am not totally familiar with. I still find learning tunes "cold" for example at a workshop difficult, but even that is coming easier. I was at a folkworks workshop this weekend and I managed to learn four tunes without the dots, though I was vaguely familiar with three of them. We were given the dots to take home, though. I put the progress down to having to learn tunes by ear on a regular basis. Knowing a tune and being able to hum, sing or whistle it helps immensely, though. My trouble is that it is too easy to play from music at home :-) |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Peter T. Date: 24 Oct 05 - 05:35 PM I was interested to read somewhere that the trickiest thing about picking out a tune from the radio or wherever is to take it note by note. The untrained ear is usually skipping ahead or listening to the whole sound. To slow down and pick up each note takes a lot of patience. This is different from learning by ear as you go in a band setting. I recall that Rick Fielding used to start off with simple I-IV-V chord progressions, so you could hear the changes (also watch the fingers on the other person's guitar). Then he did the I - I7 - IV progression, and then the blues progression. After that it was rags, and then lastly the jazz III-VI-II-V-I. He would then do 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, diminisheds, and augmenteds, and start sprinkling them into the previous progressions. After an hour of this, your head hurt. After one of these sessions (we would do them all) he said -- "If you can hear these, you know 99% of everything unless Miles Davis is in the room. If Miles Davis is in the room, put the instrument down and listen." yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 24 Oct 05 - 05:41 PM If you can already play from the dots then one good idea is to look out for scales and arpegios. All tunes are made up of these with some interconnecting extra notes. I have even found that one person I know, who is considered tone deaf because they cannot sing a scale, can sing perfect arpegios. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Alan Day Date: 24 Oct 05 - 06:08 PM Some people memorise the written notes for each tune and play the tune as if they were reading.I cannot do this and the correct method for me would be to memorise the tune in respect to the notes I am playing.For this method start off with a very simple tune like a nursery rhyme.Forget chords at this stage and gently progress.It will be hard at first, but then once you relate a tune to your finger pattern the music will start to flow,add chords and you are there.It is possible to hear a new tune through a few times and start playing it.You will then move on, to what you may think is impossible, to actually play your instrument in your head with chords. A good friend told me he could never remember anything and this would be impossible,but I reminded him that if I told him a joke he would tell it to someone next day word for word.It is all just practice and the reason I can do it Michelle is that I have started and you have not.Give it a go and good luck. Al |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 24 Oct 05 - 06:13 PM I think we've had this discussion before on concertina.net Alan. Perhaps it's worth looking there for all the ideas that came up. This seems to be quite a common question for concertina players. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: GUEST Date: 24 Oct 05 - 06:34 PM start off with a very simple tune like a nursery rhyme I think a lot of nursery rhymes actually developed as mnemonics for tunes. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: GUEST Date: 24 Oct 05 - 06:48 PM Seems to me there are three fronts being advanced in this thread: Learning songs, learning chords, and learning tunes. They're all slightly different, but all depend on listening a good deal. Songs (vocalizing words to a melody) are probably simplest because words, as you memorize them, have the tune notes sort of embedded in them. They are their own built in mnemonics. And about as soon as you learn all the words, you already know the tune. I read somewhere that some cultures can't conceive of a melody without words. Chords are a different trick. After you've learned the words try playing along with your voice on a chordal instrument. You will probably hear where the voice tune and the chords on the instrument don't match, or the chords want to pull your voice away from the melody you know. That's a pretty good sign you should be changing chords. Martin Gibson's comment above about listening to the "drone pitch" is a pretty accurate way of describing this. Tunes are perhaps the hardest to learn by ear and since you play fiddle, you're on one of the harder instruments to start out on. You can't fall back on chords like on a guitar, mandolin or banjo. You need to know your scales on the fiddle pretty well before you start. And then playing a lot with other people helps. A fine guitar player told me that when he sets out to learn a new tune by ear, he gets a recording of it and listens to it at least 10 times in a row so that he can hum the melody before he even picks up his instrument. Then he figures out what key it's in, and then starts trying to find the notes, matching them against the tune he's humming in this head. As a fiddle player you should know about "mouth music" or "deedleing" which is the way the old timers memorized and, at times, transmitted tunes without having an instrument. It's like humming, but instead vocalizing the tune with "deedle deedle dees" - I picked up a CD several years ago of mouth music in various cultures, Celtic to Appalachian, and it was pretty informative. There's also been some discussion here at Mudcat about mouth music. So - listen to a tune a lot, pick up your instrument and try to find the first few notes, then go back and repeat the process. It'l get faster each time. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Gwenzilla Date: 24 Oct 05 - 07:28 PM I'm sure I learned by ear as a young child, and I've always had a good memory for melody. However, I became "paper-trained" because I had many years of musical training before giving up classical music to do what I really love. :) You can arrive at playing by ear through close study of musical theory and singing theory. Over the years, I became good enough at this to pick out where in the scale melodies were set, and then a working knowledge of chord theory is all that you need. Did you ever learn solfege in school? That's the singing scale where you sing, 'do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, ti, do?' The way I find melodies is this: while I don't have perfect pitch (and thank the gods for that!), I do have a feel for how things sound in relation to one another. It doesn't matter what pitch or note a song begins or ends on, only how it relates to the other notes that make up its melody. So if you take something simple, like "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star," for example, and you sing it using solfege syllables, you get, 'do do, sol sol, la la, sol, fa fa, mi mi, re re, do' for the first line of the song. Well, 'do' is the first note of the scale, so try it with a root chord, a I chord, or choose a key (we'll pick D because it's good for guitars, even though I don't use it much). If the first not is D and D is 'do,' then 'sol' is A. See? Then, you add harmony depending on which syllable/scale part/note you're singing when. There are plenty of resources out there that will help you with basic music theory; taking a beginning piano course is actually a pretty good idea, even if you don't intend to become a piano player, because you will learn quite a lot of scale theory that way. If you already have a grasp of musical theory and this sounded like a kindergarten lecture, I first apologise for patronising you and second recommend a terrific book called _Lies My Music Teacher Told Me_ by Gerald Eskelin, and another called _The Musical Life_ by WA Mathieu. Cheers, Gwen Knighton |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: DADGBE Date: 24 Oct 05 - 07:56 PM If you can hum a tune, any tune, you already have the basic skill that you need. It's called 'audiation' and it is the ability to 'hear' a complete tune in your head without going through your ears. Try it with something like Pop Goes the Weasel of some other song you learned as a kid. The next step is to make the same thing you can do with your voice happen through your fingers on your instrument. The process is called finger singing and it's a slow process. Even 5 minutes per day of audiating some simple tune and attempting to play it will increase your skills over a period of months and years. The process is one of decision making. You are comparing the note your fingers played to that note's blue print in you mind's ear. Obviously, there are only three possibilities - too high, too low, just right. By going through through the decision making process over and over again, it gets faster and more sure. Embrace your first 750,000 mistakes. They're not really errors, they're learning opportunities. The first million errors will make you an expert. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Ebbie Date: 24 Oct 05 - 08:24 PM My current singing partner came to me a year or so ago and said she had taken up the guitar and wanted to learn playing by ear; could we try playing together? As a recorder player in a band she was thoroughly paper trained but she wanted the freedom to go farther. Turned out that she has an excellent ear and she is now not only accompanying lead instruments but she is flatpicking tunes. She's having a blast. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 24 Oct 05 - 08:34 PM "You might spot after a while, that tunes have recognisable chunks that come in other tunes - repeated phrases and such like. Once your fingers have got used to playing the phrase in one tune, it is really easy to play that same phrase in another." This is one of the hidden secrets of "Classical Music Training", and why the students play scales, arpeggios, and books of exercises designed to strengthen both the body and the mental processes. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: JohnInKansas Date: 24 Oct 05 - 08:47 PM If you expect to play well by ear, it is very important that you "know your instrument" and also that you "know your intervals." You learn to know your instrument by playing with it regularly and frequently. You don't really "know" it if all you do is playback known things by rote. You fondle it, it tweak it, you caress it, you do random and exciting things with it, until it responds consistently in ways you expect and enjoy. To quickly "learn your intervals," the kind of practice described by Peter T, going through common chords in progressions used in the kind of music that interests you, frequently and repeatedly until it sounds and feels so familiar that it resembles "real music" to you, is an unbeatable "ear" training. Especially if you're interested in "melody" play, you can do the chord progressions as strums and then appegiated, until when you hear a "change" it will be natural to you to make the "move" required to play it. If all you ever do is "play songs," you're actually doing the intervals/chords/progressions/moves practice, but you're doing it at random. It may take you years to encounter the "changes" that "make your music" for you often enough to recognize the same stuff in different context. Structured and methodical practice may seem "boring" at first, but when the exercises come fluently it becomes fun occasionally to just relax, sit around, and "noodle" with them. One fundamental reason for structured practice relates to the "TeAChErS &#@$! *^%$@ sADiSTs (@!!!!~ EGOtiSTicAl $#$#$!!! S.O.b. $*()^% (^, haTe +++++-_#@ STUDenT" relationship. Beginners usually feel that their teachers hate them and are trying to bore them to death. It's usually only partly true, and your teacher deserves some respect. So Practice. Even if you're trying to teach yourself, your "teacher" part, that knows that you should "study" systematically deserves some respect. So practice. The more important,and even more fundamental reason for devoting time to systematic "drill type" practice is – IT WORKS. And it's the quickest and easiest way to learn the basic skills you need to "hear/play" by ear. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 24 Oct 05 - 09:04 PM Very good JiK and it should not be forgotten that the best classical music soloists play without printed music in front of them. That is not really 'playing by ear' but 'playing from memory'. This requires absorbing the music into your soul so that you can devote all your conscious efforts into expression and interpretation. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: CarolC Date: 24 Oct 05 - 09:43 PM It is possible to learn by ear even if you can't hear anything in your head. I can't hear anything at all in my head, but with pieces that aren't too complicated (most "folk" music, fortunately), I somehow 'know' what notes to play. I can't explain how I know... I just do. But that's why I've never been able to get very far with playing classical music. I'm not a good enough sight reader, and I can't remember long, complicated pieces in my head (because I can't hear them). Other than beginning piano lessons when I was a kid, the only kinds of music I've been able to play are "early music" (Medieval, Renaissance, and some early Baroque), and folk music because for the most part, they are relatively simple and easy to remember, even without being able to hear in my head. I suspect that brain wiring is a significant factor in influencing what kinds of music many of us are drawn to and play. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Bobert Date: 24 Oct 05 - 10:04 PM Only way to play... My folks bought a baby grand piano when I was about 10 and stuck it in a big livin' room as a docoration.... Ha! Hey, both my brother and I learned to play it... No one ever talked 'bout piano lessons... Glad they din't... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: LilyFestre Date: 24 Oct 05 - 11:10 PM Bobert, That is just the kind of response that pisses me off. That is NOT the only way to play....as you can see from the responses here, there are several ways to play...and frankly, I don't think one is any better than the other. I enjoy playing music from reading it. I think I would enjoy it by being able to pick out a tune...but damn, I do NOT enjoy others who make judgement calls as to which way is right. I don't tell those of you who can play by ear that you are doing it wrong or that the way you interpret the music is something that should be looked down upon. Perhaps that is not the message you are meaning to send but that's what I'm getting. That kind of attitude makes me NEVER EVER want to play around anyone. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Janie Date: 24 Oct 05 - 11:40 PM This is a fascinating thread. Having never learned to read music, the only way I ever have known is by ear. I have often wished I could learn to read music. I can use sheet music to help me some with intervals and timing, but otherwise I have never been able to decipher it. It had absolutely never occurred to me that a brain trained to play by reading music with a thorough understanding of the language might find it difficult, at first, to learn to play by ear. Wow. Thanks. Janie |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 24 Oct 05 - 11:59 PM The point is that someone trained to play only from written notation is in much the same position as someone who can only speak when reading aloud from a script. Ideally we should all be able to do both; speaking as a near-illiterate where staff notation is concerned, though, I am glad to be able to hear a tune, play it, and improvise on it, without having to mess about with sheets of paper. We learn to speak by hearing, and learning to read is a useful thing that comes later. The same is, or should be, true of music. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: michaelr Date: 25 Oct 05 - 01:12 AM Although I was taught as a child, I too am functionally illiterate when it comes to written music. Which has never appeared a significant handicap to me. Malcolm has it right, I think: We learn to speak by hearing, and learning to read is a useful thing that comes later. The same is, or should be, true of music. That implies that those who teach music theory first, and listening second (or not at all), have it backwards. An understanding of music is best acquired by listening -- as much and as variedly as possible. LilyFestre -- you say you play fiddle, so I will boldly surmise that you want to learn traditional fiddle tunes. You can of course learn the basic skeleton of any tune by reading the sheet music. But what brings the tune to life are the things that can't be notated: the swing, the lift, the neagh (Irish for "that certain something"). You assimilate that sort of thing by osmosis, by sitting in sessions and listening to records. It can't be taught. The dots should be only reminders of "how does this one start?" CarolC is right as well, of course, saying that our brains are all wired differently. That's why to some it comes easy, and some never get it at all... Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Liz the Squeak Date: 25 Oct 05 - 03:10 AM That is so true Michael - Limpit is this very moment downstairs, playing 'the Hall of the Mountain King' melody line that she learnt last Sunday. She saw the written notes once, and now plays it by ear... listening to when she's got a note that sounds out of place, rather than looking for the score. I can sight read pretty well, but I can not remember the line 10 minutes later, let alone 2 days.... I have to go over it several times. Limpit is wired differently. Similarly, I know classically trained players who can play a piece note perfect from a previously unseen score, but cannot pick their way through a familiar tune by ear. It's a difficult lesson to learn, but well worth the effort. My ear is pretty good, but I have a crappy memory, so I record things, play them over and over and eventually it will stick. But I have noticed that I know more tunes when I've had a drink or two, than when sober.... because I learned them when I was under the influence. Maybe drinking could be your salvation! LTS |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: JohnInKansas Date: 25 Oct 05 - 03:20 AM LTS - There may actually be a difference in learning ability for some, drunk or sober; but this was sort of a research fad back in the early 1980s; and they generally found that if you learn it while drunk, you have to get drunk again to remember it, or versed vices. Dangerous way to go...(?) John |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Paul Burke Date: 25 Oct 05 - 03:47 AM I played Irish (and English, Sottish, Swedish, French etc.) music by ear for many years. Then a few years ago I took up klezmer. Big problems. I just couldn't hear the shape of the tune at all. The cliches were totally different. So I learned tunes slowly and painfully, a few notes at a time, from dots- that's how I have to read music. But I found that, gradually, I could pick up similarities in other tunes- I was learning the dialect. Now I still learn from music, but as often as not by writing it- I listen to a CD phrase by phrase, write it down (with Noteworthy), play it back and edit it until it sounds right. This has the advantage that I can take copies along to the session for other people to try, and it's been quite successful. Of course, by the time I've finished, I have the tune well stuck in memory anyway, and I'm already on to the decoration and variations. John: it's quite easy. Just STAY drunk. Avoids hangovers too. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 05 - 04:35 AM Since the subject is "learning" by ear, and since some people are making value judgements about which way is better for learning music, I think I should mention something that I witnessed recently at the Getaway. I played, at a workshop, a piece of music that I have been playing for several years, and that I have fully internalized (and that most of the time, if I have played it enough recently and have not forgotten the chords for it, I can play without sheet music). I used sheet music on this occassion since I haven't played the piece in a long time and I wasn't sure I would be able to remember the chords (it was a Finnish waltz, and the chords really need to be played a certain way to get the full emotional impact of the piece). Some of the other people wanted to try playing it, so they borrowed my sheet music and gave it a try. They are good and skilled musicians and they, after playing from the sheet music a couple of times, had fully internalized the spirit of the piece and did a better job than I ever have in expressing that spirit while playing the piece. All this while they were still using the sheet music. So I disagree strongly that using sheet music, either for learning, or for performing an already learned piece, in any way hinders someone from internalizing the feel and spirit of a piece of music, or from expressing that feel and spirit while playing the piece. It may hinder some people, but it in no way hinders everyone from doing so. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: GUEST,Alan Day Date: 25 Oct 05 - 06:32 AM I am interested in your reply Carol C that for music you cannot hear anything in your head.Does that mean you cannot humm a tune or sing a tune from memory? I find this statement unusual, only because I have never met anyone who has ever said that.If that is the case for you to play without the dots from which you would get timing is even more interesting. I cannot understand why you blasted Bobert for his posting LilyFestre,You asked for people to help you by instigating this thread and Bobert is replying to it.The very fact that he sat down at the piano and worked on tunes without the music is why he is playing by ear.I did not read that as boasting etc I took that as the reason why he played by ear.Perhaps you read it in a different way to me. Al |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 05 - 07:07 AM I don't understand it myself, Alan. I literally cannot hear anything in my head. The reason I know this is because on maybe five or six occasions, I have heard something in my head (just a fleeting thing like a voice lasting only a second or less), and I know what that's like. But those were freak occurances for me, and I don't understand why they happened then, or why I can't hear in my head the rest of the time. I can hum a tune or sing a tune (or more often, in my case, whistle a tune) from memory. It's just that my memory doesn't come in the form of hearing in my head. I don't know how to describe what I experience... it's more like a feeling about a sound rather than something that is experienced like a sound. I have the same problem with seeing in my head. It's totally dark and quiet in there pretty much all of the time. But I am very kinesthetic, and I have "feeling-senses" for most things. I know that is probably very difficult to imagine if you're not like that, but I don't know how else to put it. And also, although I know what notes to play in a piece that I have memorised, I really don't "remember" them as such. I just know which notes to play automatically without thinking about them at all. This is the case for me with timing as well. Oddly enough, as I have said, I am not a very good sight reader. In fact, I am a very poor sight reader. Most of the time, I need to hear a piece of music a few times before I can use sheet music to learn it. I need to hear the timing and the melody before I can understand how it's supposed to sound. Then I use the sheet music to help me memorise it. Once I have memorised a tune, I will sometimes need to continue to use the sheet music for the chords for a much longer time before I really "know" them and can play the piece without having the chords on marked on the sheet music in front of me. Knowing the chords is entirely muscle memory for me. I don't know how they're supposed to sound until I play them, and I only know which ones to play because my muscles have memorised them for me (I play accordion, so it's simply a matter of pushing a button to get a chord). This is not at all the same thing as the way I learn a tune. I have some other interesting brain wiring quirks as well. I had some repeated head traumas as a child (ironically enough, while falling off of the family piano as a toddler), and I think it's possible that this may be the reason for the way my brain works (or doesn't, as the case may be). |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 05 - 07:18 AM One more thing on the subject of the chords... although I don't know how they're supposed to sound ahead of time, I definitely know when a chord I've just played is the wrong one. I know what sounds right and what sounds wrong when I play it. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: treewind Date: 25 Oct 05 - 07:27 AM The fact is you learn to play whichever way (by ear or from music) comes easiest naturally, and the the other way tends to get left behind and requires a surprising amount of discipline and practice to catch up. Music students with a good ear find it hard to learn to sight read, and those who learn easily to play from music are likely to rely on the music not to develop a good ear for memorizing a tune. I was brought up on reading music, though I also spent a lot of time mucking about at the piano keyboard and teaching myself the basics of harmony in the process. But that isn't the same as learning tunes by ear, and as Foolestroupe says, playing classical music from memory isn't the same thing either. I've learned to pick up tunes by ear from hours of sitting in sessions at folk festivals and similar, just trying to follow what I could. I can now join in with most of a tune I hadn't heard before (if it's not too complicated) by the third time round, but 30 seconds later I've forgotten just about every note of it! I suspect there are two separate skills involved here: translating what your hear into playing your instrument, and memorizing a tune. I have a theory that the first of these becomes easier when you play more than one instrument, even when reading msic, because it breaks the "this dot here means put that finger there" habit and replaces it with more of "hear what you see, then play what you hear". Anyway both skills can be learned through practice. Lilyfestre - keep at it, and don't expect instant results! Anahata |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: GUEST,Betsy Date: 25 Oct 05 - 07:44 AM I think it's some you either HAVE or you haven't. Follow all the tips in this thread and after avery short while you will discover which one applies to you. I sincerely hope you HAVE this ability. Cheers Betsy |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 25 Oct 05 - 07:52 AM I can follow a score (i.e. I can listen to an instrument/group of instruments and keep up with the written score) but I have never learned to play from written music - just learned everything I play by listening, trying it out, and practising. A fairly solid grounding in musical theory has helped - understanding composition, harmony, chord relationships and progressions etc. - and I guess I have a pretty good 'ear', by which I mean I can listen to a piece and 'know' what the chords etc. are. It's always intrigued me that many of the readers I've met have told me that I'm not a 'real musician' because I can't play from the dots, yet as often as not they can't play WITHOUT the dots. Seems a strange philosophy that my inability to play from music is viewed as a shortcoming, yet their inability to play without music is seen as perfectly acceptable, or even desirable. Anyone else faced this sort of snobbery? |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: LilyFestre Date: 25 Oct 05 - 08:02 AM Johnny, Yes, but in the exact opposite fashion. It's pretty darn frustrating, isn't it? Michelle |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: GUEST Date: 25 Oct 05 - 08:08 AM speaking purely as a drummer - I find that when you can anticipate the next few notes - you have learnt enough to not embarrass yourself. There is a syntax to many tunes and maybe I compartmentalise tunes into types (within my own frame of reference) and some are just "not for this instrument". I always tell ceilidh newbies that while they are struggling with the letters and phonemes we old hands are thinking in words and sentences. Does this help? |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: manitas_at_work Date: 25 Oct 05 - 08:31 AM Paul Burke mentioned cliches and I think this is part of it. Identify a part of the tune that is similar to something you have heard before and play it. Add another section and so on. If you are playing along, say in a session or to a tape, try to pick out the notes on the strongest beats and the next time througn the tune try to add some more. I think it's a lot easier if you learn to hum the tune first but you won't have time for that in a session. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 25 Oct 05 - 09:00 AM Michelle - I think I'm correct in assuming that your cryptic comment means that you're in agreement with me that we're ALL 'real musicians' (whatever that means!) but that we just approach our music in different ways? :-) S:0) |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 25 Oct 05 - 09:03 AM And having gone back to your first post, I can see that you do. Good on yer girl! :-) :-) S:0) |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 25 Oct 05 - 10:11 AM "disagree strongly that using sheet music, either for learning, or for performing an already learned piece, in any way hinders someone from internalizing the feel and spirit of a piece of music" Yeah well if you were brought up with classical music soloists, you wouldn't have any problem - they do it all the time - sight reading and playing it without sheet music (learning it off by heart is the phrase). Classical music ensembles play with sheet music for a reason - they often have little notes scribbled thereon, the music may be damn complicated, and since they are professionals, they play thousands of pieces a year and can't possibly take the risk of a wrong note, etc Funny thing though - ask any professional Symphony Orchestra to play something that they all 'know' (provided the conductor gives them the 'key') such as Happy Birthday or The National Anthem, and they will, and they won;t have the music on the stand anyway! 'becomes easier when you play more than one instrument, even when reading music, because it breaks the "this dot here means put that finger there" habit and replaces it with more of "hear what you see, then play what you hear"' The first three or four are the hardest! Seriously, the first time you learn 'the dots' it carries over to all the other instruments, and then the first time you learn a plucked, or bowed string , or reed or trumpet instrument is the hardest. Violin/viola/cello etc, clarinet.sax family, keyboard family, etc. Re snobbery about sheet music/play be ear: It's only "B Grade" musos who exhibit this sort of 'put down' attitude. When it comes to singing 'old style' folk tunes, I can join in with a song I have never heard before, usually by half way thru the first verse - cause the pattern is obvious in advance, and strangely I can sing the words in unison with the singer too - how? I don't know... ... and I'm not making this up... it tends to annoy some performers too, especially if they have just written the damn song and not preformed it before... "although I know what notes to play in a piece that I have memorised, I really don't "remember" them as such. I just know which notes to play automatically without thinking about them at all." Yeah - similar - but in my case I can sight read it it, but not hear it in my head - though if I play while sight reading, then I can hear it!!! Singing by sight reading was always more difficult than playing an instrument by sight reading. I don't 'hear' the music in my head most of the time - there's all these damn voices... {:-P (wearing Fooles Hat) |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: *daylia* Date: 25 Oct 05 - 11:22 AM I was at the piano picking out melodies by ear by the time I was 3 years old. How did I do that? I have no idea ... I just loved to do it, spent LOTS of time at the piano, could pick out the "sour" notes from the "right" ones quite easily. Later, that natural "ear" was developed and enhanced though years of classical training. Those lessons have proved so valuable - gave me good physical technique, effective practice habits, a workable knowledge of music theory PLUS the ability to sight read. I've applied what I learned on piano to every other instrument I've wanted to learn to play. As a teacher, a lot of people have asked me over the years to show them how to "play by ear". But no-one ever "taught" me how to do that; it really stumped me at first how to go about "teaching" someone else! BUt I eventually worked out a "method". First, I give them basic ear training - starting very simply, with matching tones (Play a note, listen VERY carefully and sing it back) and clapping back simple rhythms. This develops the ability to notice when pitches are "higher" or "lower" or perfectly matched, to "feel" a steady beat. ONce they can match tones accurately, we move on to arranging those pitches into scales, intervals and chords. I have them practice technique (scales, chords, arpeggios) in all 12 major and minor keys (eventually!) to give them a working knowledge of the "building blocks" of music PLUS "great fingers", strong hands - and sometimes, even the ability to hear where the key changes within a piece of music too. I do melody-playbacks with them, starting very simply with only the first three notes of the scale (I tell them the key first, play a very short 3-note melody, and have them play back what they heard - without watching me play it first of course!). Eventually, students can do this with more complicated melodies using all notes of the scale, and beyond the octave too. Then, it's fairly simple to figure out any song they want to play. In the meantime, I show them basic chord progressions, starting with I and V, then adding IV, II, VI, and the 7th chords. I show them how chords and progressions are used in their favourite songs, starting with the simplest - and they eventually learn to recognize the sound of the different chords and progressions. A After that, they're well on their way .... I just help them with any specific details if they get stumped figuring out the songs they want to play. Even the best "ear" is not infallible, especially when it comes to figuring out complicated riffs and jazz harmonies performed at lightening speed! So if you want to learn someone else's composition as accurately as possible, my best advice is to read the music to correct / complement / complete what you've figured out by ear. A well-trained ear easily picks out the errors and typos commonly found in printed music, and a well-trained eye finds the "mistakes" even the "best" and most musical of ears inevitably make. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: GUEST,Russ Date: 25 Oct 05 - 05:55 PM LilyFestre Just a reminder. Learning by ear is not something you have to learn to do. You've already done it. I've never met anybody who learned "Happy Birthday" or "Eensy Weensy spider" from paper. Anyway, I've learned music in different wants throughout my life. I now learn strictly by ear for a number of reasons I won't go into. I don't think I have any real knack for learning by ear. It takes me a long time and a lot of listening to learn a tune. However, and this is this real point, if it is a tune that I care about enough to learn, done by a musician who does it right, I cannot think of a better way to spend time. As I said once to a friend, "If you want to learn Ernie Carpenter's Horny Ewe what do you have better to do than to listen to Ernie play it until you know it?" |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Alan Day Date: 26 Oct 05 - 02:05 PM I wonder Carol C if you can instead of humming a tune,like you say you can do,try humming it without making a sound.In other words hum the tune in your head.This is as near to hearing the tune which you are having difficulties with.It is not the full Monty but will be near enough. Sorry to cut across your thread Michelle. Al |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: CarolC Date: 26 Oct 05 - 02:24 PM I can't hum a tune in my head, but I can "feel" a tune in my head. That's how I experience music in my head. I know that's different from hearing in my head because of the experiences I mentioned in one of my previous posts. That's why I can learn fairly simple music by ear. But this way of experiencing music in my head is very blurry and not very detailed, and that's why I need sheet music for longer and/or more complicated pieces. I think what I am experiencing is more of an internal spatial thing. In my head, I am aware of musical intervals as being relationships between objects in space. Notes have a relationship to each other in space inside my head, but I don't hear them. Try to imagine if, in your brain, you think in terms of notes being objects, and some of them being on top of, or underneath of other ones in space. Then try to imagine that you don't see these objects, you just feel them. That's more the way I experience it. And for me, Rythm is just patterns that these objects form in time. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Charmion Date: 26 Oct 05 - 02:32 PM Hi, Michelle. I do not believe that the ability to learn by ear is a gift or knack that you have or haven't got. I believe that it is a skill that you can teach yourself. I, too, was rigorously paper-trained, but I have always learned songs by ear so with the mandolin I am having a comparatively easy transition from learning tunes from tadpoles to learning them by ear. For me, the first stage of learning a tune is breaking it down into phrases about two bars long. This is easiest to do with another person or a cassette tape, but it is also possible with computer CD players such as RealPlayer. When I can play the first phrase perfectly, I start learning the second, then join them and play the tune from the beginning. Then I start the third, and when I can play that perfectly I go back to the beginning and play as far as I can. When I can play the first three phrases without error, I learn the last phrase, then go back to the beginning again and play to the end. Most traditional tunes repeat phrases, so this process is less complicated than it sounds. I then repeat the entire eight-bar section until I can play it perfectly and without hesitation. Then I am ready to start learning the second part of the tune, which I do exactly the same way. When I can play the second part of the tune without error, I start at the beginning of the first part and play the entire tune to the end with the repeats. When I have completed the entire process, I find the new tune is fairly well established and I can recall it correctly with only a little refreshment (i.e., listening to the original). At this stage, I identify the specific combination of notes and rhythm that becomes the "tag" I use to recall the tune. The next stage of learning for me is when the tune becomes an "ear worm" running through my head constantly. Whenever possible during this stage, I give in to the ear worm and play the tune repeatedly. After two or three days of ear-worming, the tune is fully learned and well seated in long-term memory. I can then retrieve it correctly at any time, usually by playing or humming the "tag" phrase, and play it accurately. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: GUEST,Sieffe Date: 26 Oct 05 - 03:18 PM easypeasy, Lily . . . .as a lot of the posted replies have pointed out, just try any tune you have never seen written down anywhere (hopefully there will be some such as "Happy Birthday" that you have never seen in notation form) and play it . . .that simple to start with . . . last night I picked up a dulcimer and made up another tune . . . so you could start with a scale and bend it into a melody . . . enjoy! (If music is not enjoyable, stop playing immediately and eat icecream! . . .) ps. . .I cannot read a note of written music . . .but I play lots of music! |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Jon W. Date: 26 Oct 05 - 06:35 PM good information here. I can only add that sometimes when I'm picking out tunes on banjo, I find a phrase that sounds "right" when played two different ways (I mean with different notes, not just different fingerings). In these cases I sometimes need to go to a printed source to check which is "correct" - often neither is. I guess this is how changes creep into tunes over time - a valid part of the "folk process." |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: NH Dave Date: 26 Oct 05 - 07:08 PM While this isn't exactly playing by ear, it is a good cheat that gets you going on new songs. Observe another playing the same instrument as you and copy the chords that s/he plays. Or observe another good musician on another instrument, learn to recognise the chords that s/he plays and finger that chord on your instrument. This worked well for me when I was struggling along on a banjo and could watch the guitarists, and play the same chords they were using on my banjo. Dave |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: LilyFestre Date: 26 Oct 05 - 07:09 PM (If music is not enjoyable, stop playing immediately and eat icecream! . . .) LOL....I think I like this idea the best!!! And thank you for the many ideas and thoughts shared here...I'm about to embark on a mission...... Michelle PS. Believe it or not, I DID learn Happy Birthday from written music! I think that my music is like my security blanket as I can play many tunes without REALLY watching the music...it's there as kind of a reference...make sense? Wish me luck! |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 26 Oct 05 - 08:01 PM LilyFestre (calm down - take a deep breath - put the books in the closet for awhile.)
Like you I was classical in my training - however, aside from memorized performance pieces I was at a loss without some-sort of sheet music, ANY sort of sheet music was fine.
In a theory class it is frustrating to have vocalists get A's on intervals, and I had a hard time telling if the tone was even higher or lower.
However, ANY "pianist" "keyboardist" should be able to sit down and wizz-out Happy Birthday, or For He's a Jolly Good Fellow it is a shame to have the training and lack the ability to have a gang belt out Clementine without searching for a book.
EPIPHANY for me came with a two night, university extension class.
Start with nursery rhymes, move to a couple simple tunes, pickout one new song a day; begin to add left hand and florishes (use half-step blues bends up or down) When you can do a hundred in the key of "C" take one and do it in C and then F and then G....(don't forget Bb - get it in early - soon you might find a sax wants melody) and try doing a simple one in ALL twelve keys...and then another in all 12, and another.
My sight-reading has gone to Hull.....Last weekend "Concerto in C," by some ghostly hand, slipped off the shelf and nosed its head under the door - gave it a run-through, I'm out looking for two oboes and French horns....or another pianist.
In the mornings I awaken to Public Broadcast Radio, they always have brief melodies as "bumpers" into new reports - as I stumble towards the kitchen - the keyboard is enroute - the challenge is to recreate that brief segway on the way to the coffee.
After the folk tunes, move onto the blues and shortly behind their heels you will find jazz creeping in.
HAVE FUN - it is NOT hard - it will take about three years before you are able to follow the sax/vocalist/clarinet lead in any key.
It will take about three days and you will be able to toast B-Days and Jolly Fellows in the key of C. (I,IV,V - one, four, five, - C, F, G)
My personal groupings are now:
At one point, I forbid myself from using ANY printed music for several months.
PLEASE -
Sincerely,
Don't be angry with Bobert - his parent's ignorance became his loss - it is MUCH easier to learn by ear at our age than it would be for us to NOW learn classical with arthritic fingers, hemroids, blurred vision, halitosis, weak bladder, and memory loss. You and I have cavorted with genius and can step back in awe - while others are happy with only turkey and straw. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 26 Oct 05 - 08:06 PM Oh Shit Lilly!!! -
What I posted does not apply to you. Fiddle??? (you were just trying to be "folkie" right....you studied violin????)
I think Bobert was right after all.
Sincerely,
Always read the entire post before letting your elephant mouth overload your hummingbird ass-hole...sorry. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Peace Date: 26 Oct 05 - 10:34 PM "How Do You Learn By Ear" Never mind how do WE learn. How do the Italians learn. Didn't Mark Antony borrow . . . . |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 26 Oct 05 - 10:40 PM I said Friends Romans Countrymen, lend me your ears! What ya got int eh sack? Ears! |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: GUEST Date: 27 Oct 05 - 12:12 AM Friends, Romans, Countrymen
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: JohnInKansas Date: 27 Oct 05 - 01:56 AM Despite a mis(non)-reading of the subject, I'd like to congratulate Gargoyle on one of the most elegant and thoughtful posts I've seen from him recently. (26 Oct 05 - 08:01 PM ). Musta' been readin' some love pomes or somethin'. Or maybe it was that "Concerto in C." John |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 27 Oct 05 - 06:54 AM Hi Lily, lovely fiddler (all female fiddlers starting with an L are lovely) - it's only a problem of training, best done together with others. My experience: While I got music lessons with a lot of theory and sheet music I learned tunes by ear with the boy scouts. We sang together, and when we were all in unisono we had done well. When I intend to learn a song by ear I involuntarily hear the main intervals and steps, too. That's my classical training. So it is unimportant which instrument I use, or which key. I often have to do this when I'm checking the DT for tunes, and I still remember that "John Kanaka" proved to be difficult at first for a certain interval ... So I started again and again, till I had mastered it. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 29 Oct 05 - 05:01 AM Lily - and now a practical advice: Listen to this song [click to play] and try to play it on your instrument. It consists mostly of firsts and seconds, with a few thirds, and an occasional fourth here and there. Some phrases are segments of the scale, so it should be easy for a start. (The song was played when my hard fighting bataillon marched out of Yorktown, due to the artful strategies of the British Supreme Command.) If you are too paper fixed, start with trying to write it down on a sheet; you can change to an easy key, prefereably C major. Start with the offbeat in g', then c''. So you won't need any auxiliary lines. Or, if you are a violinist, d - g. Bonne chance! wilfried |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Ebbie Date: 29 Oct 05 - 10:59 PM Not germain to this discussion but I have to put it somewhere! At the Getaway, somebody (Amos) started a lively beat on the guitar but the room was noisy and nobody sang. Then Teresa (from Shellbacks) shouted: Does anyone have a tune to go with this rhythm? And everybody sang. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Bert Date: 29 Oct 05 - 11:34 PM Fhwooo! (coming from the worlds worst guitarist) It's difficult. When I first picked up the guitar I had to look up the chords for each song. After some years I was able to pick out some chords for myself. Eventually I decided to take some guitar lessons and my teacher got me playing scales in all different keys. With a lot of practice I found that I was able to pick out some tunes by ear. Tunes that I knew well. Now if I can't figure out how a song goes I will play the scale for that key a few times and I find it helps. You as a trained fiddler will know all your scales so now's the time to play them again. Hope this helps a little. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Bert Date: 29 Oct 05 - 11:40 PM Oh, and I forgot, sometimes it helps to start with the ending os the song. |
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Subject: RE: How Do You Learn By Ear From: Ebbie Date: 29 Oct 05 - 11:55 PM Sometimes I say that if I get the first chord and the ending chord right, that's all anyone can aspire to. *G* |
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