BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !

Subject: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST,Eddie Bunting
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 03:07 PM

So glad to read the statement from Catherine McCartney and her sisters today saying they refused to accept the Women of the Year Award in London last night due to the fact Margaret thatcher would be there. In Catherines own words this is a women that brought misery to the people of Ireland whilst Prime Minister. She sat back and stubbornly watched ten young men die in 1981 all because they were convicted to their cause. This woman does not and should not be remembered for anything else. So at last the sisters and the partner of their dead brother have saw sense and the fact that they were used by the British Government and media to try and stir up anti Republican feeling in Ireland and beyond.Which might I add didn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 04:29 PM

After having had a hard time dealing with the consequences of murder over the past few months, rightly they didn't want to have anything to do with another variety of murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 08:25 AM

nothing else....more than that were killed on the picket lines in the miners strike, not to mention the lives and communities blighted because no other provision was made to find work

then there was the little business of the Falklands, brought about mainly by her cost cutting of the defences of those islands - thus encouraging Galtieri to chance his arm

i feel you are failing to give that dear old lady her due

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 11:21 AM

And the spin doctors would have you believe they were out to get IRA/Sinn Fein, just shows their agenda is not what the smear merchants would have us believe!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 01:21 PM

Why "see sense at last"
They were lifelong Nationalists if not Republicans.
I am sure their opinion of Mrs T has never changed at all.
They just were angry that Sinn Feinn officials tried to protect their brother's killers from justice.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 01:46 PM

Hello there GUEST Eddie Bunting - Any apology from the organisation that you obviously support for killing that lady's brother???

Not at fuckin' hope.

The ten young men you allude to died of their own free will and were allowed to do so, all well and good they supported an organisation that were responsible for the deaths of 2055 and injuring somewhere in the region of 47,500. greatest good for the greatest number - 10 was a very cheap price to pay, apart from which Sands was a very poor historian and a writer of some absolutely appalingly inaccurate songs.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST,Eddie Bunting
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 02:24 PM

Teribus whats the chance of making your mind up were you in the army as you say or were you in the Navy as you say. Bit of a dreamer if you ask me. Total asshole is about right.2055 ? yet again you appear wrong.Your the dickhead that goes on about Balham, enough said.Hero's they were one and all. Sad about so many of your clowns!

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 03:12 PM

Eddie, remarks as above serve no purpose. Tame the verbals. We all hold viewpoints, but keep the lingo down and don't make personal attacks on any of the guys here. Hope this is understood.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 03:17 PM

Guest Eddie Bunting,

Point one.
When did I ever say that I served as a soldier in the British Army - careful now Eddie for there are those who regularly contribute to this forum who know exactly what my service record was - so please no bullshit reactionary replies. I'll give you a slight hint - Her Majesty's Royal Marines are not part of the British Army, they are not a Regiment, they are a Corps and they are part of the Royal Navy - Now, having said all that, I was not a Royal Marine but I did serve with them, and was extremely proud of doing so - Got it.

Point Two:
One statistic that cannot be ducked - Six out of every ten deaths attributed to 'The Troubles' over the last 37 years has been verifiabley attributed to Republican/Nationalist paramilitaries, the number comes to 2055. Guest Eddie Bunting I did not make that up, they are purely a matter of FACT all of which is verified. Had you guys stayed at home ALL those people would have lived, now that is something that you have to live with - I don't, my time was spent over there trying to reduce that number, the likes of yourself and those you support tried your damndest to increase it, as I said you guys have to live with that, my conscious is clear.

Point Three:
Maybe you should get in contact with Guest Clint who very graciously acknowledged that I have have never made any reference to Balham apart from stating that I did not know where it was. Check it out.

One piece of gratuitous advice Guest Eddie Bunting - If you don't know what you're talkin'about - Shut the Fuck Up.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 03:20 PM

I don't think its a personal attack to ask teribus to clarify his previous military status. I'm curious about that myself.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST,Eddie Bunting
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 03:57 PM

Clearly he was a cook or a gofer ! Note he never says abouy Loyalist murders ? Or British Army murders ? Then again no cooks were shot. Fry up please old boy !

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 04:18 PM

Teribus,   you're at it again ! spouting your so-called facts and figures. Surely you have heard that old saying about "lies, damn lies etc "? The propaganda machine that you subscribe to is just as unreliable as any of those that you revile, old chap.
You must remember too, that the "guys" to whom you refer are, and were, AT HOME.
If, on the other hand,you and your like had stayed AT HOME, there would possibly have been no reason for hunger strikes at all.
I wonder how your NCO would have reacted to the kind of language that seems to come so readily to you, please moderate it or, I'm warning you, I will no longer feel obliged to correspond with you on historical matters.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 04:52 PM

Beachcomber,

As clearly stated in my post they are not MY facts and figures, all have been verified, so you can't duck out of them either, you may find them unpalletable but there you are. Six out of ten, beachcomber, old boy, total 2055 murdered, around 47,500 maimed and injured. Now I was not responsible for one single one of them beachcomber. Divis Sweeney might have been, Guest Eddie Bunting might have been, but that is up to them to confirm or deny, Divis did mention something about popping two Squaddies from the roof of the Flats when he resided in 'The Planet of the Erps', as I said it's up to them to tell you about it.

By the bye my NCO's did what I told them to do - get the hint.

Guest Eddie Bunting,
No one on this forum has ever come up and tried to justify Loyalist murders the way that people have tried to justify the deaths caused by the Nationalist/Republican Paramilitaries. I think that my track record on this forum with regard to complete and utter condemnation of ALL the paramilitary groups in Ireland is well documented.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Epona
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 04:58 PM

Teri,

What are you personal feelings about British soldiers in Ireland? Not your professional feelings, but personal ones. When asked about Iraq, I always make sure to distinguish the two because soldiers do as they're told, but we all have our own thoughts about the issues. So, both when you were in and troops currently there, how do you feel about that?

E

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 05:01 PM

Listen you bastard, where did I state I shot two soldiers ? I replied to one of your remarks and NEVER used the word shot. You are not only a poor example of a soldier, you are a poor example of a man. Your remarks show clearly to me that you never saw action. That's the difference between you and a real soldier. When you see the shit, smell the smoke, hear the cries, see the dead, listen to the families you don't want to see it all again. You lost any professional respect that I held for you when you made that remark. I will repay you here, be dam sure of that.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST,Ex Welsh Guard
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 05:30 PM

Don't rise to the Marines cook boyo, you have the respect of many here, he doesn't. I think you about summed his service record up tonight.Remember those who didn't just talk about it.The UVF shot dead a catholic in 1966, it's the first recorded death of the troubles. Three years before the Provo's were eventhought about ! This guy is just a foul mouthed wannabe. See the Home office says today record number of football thugs banned from matches in England. That would suit him, bet he hates coloured people too. I read how he even attacked the people livingin Balham. For gods sake they are English ! Silly silly man. Divis ignore him we all do. His name is Bill and yes he worked in the kitchens for the army. He admitted it in a pm. Again no doubt he will deney this. Just as he did the Balham remark and the one about making Irishmen squell in pain. Which again he did.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 05:33 PM

Note to other Mud Catters, sorry if I stooped to the level of this man in my last post. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 06:28 PM

WHY is it that EVERY thread involving "Ireland" degenerates into a "you'r worse than us" slanging match?
There are ATROCITIES atributable to both sides.Live with it!
Any CONSTRUCTIVE opinion will be greatly recieved
...... and Yes I do know it is hard.... but others seem able to do it, or was your treatment/ experience worse than the black south african..... or the american indian. Come on guys a bit of dignity .... Please?

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 06:35 PM

Thatcher was an enemy of many of us. I think the sisters were right to reject her - even if I do not support Irish republicanism.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 06:43 PM

Things went on behind closed doors on both sides, that will never be heard of in public. The constant bickering and small-mindedness does nothing to help heal wounds. The next generation of children will never be allowed to grow up and live in peace because of this. It is a sad fact that in this world children are taught to hate. I despair.........

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:00 PM

absolutely appalingly inaccurate songs.

Accuracy in songs has never been a particularly important requirement. Is there going to be someone going to start going round revising all our songs to make them "accurate"?

In fact there woidln't be to hat many left unscathed when you get down to it. Not even the love songs for that matter, more often than not.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Peace
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:10 PM

I wonder how long it takes for hatred to die?

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:17 PM

Too long.

Doesn't matter whether it's a second or a century.

Too long...

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:29 PM

How we English felt about the British Army being in Northern Ireland

When I was at college in the 60's one of my fellow students was in love with a guy from Belfast University. And she told us a bit about the politics he was involved in. And we'd read about the Civil Rights movement in America, and I think we thought it would be pretty cool to have one of our own. Bernadette Devlin was very charismatic. then Paisley appeared on the scene, and nobody knew what the hell he was on about, although you could tell he was pissed off about something - and we could see we were a long way out of our depth.

we couldn't really see why it was so difficult to deal with the Labour government of the period. They were a pretty non conformist open minded lot - I remember Merlyn Rees - taking a boat over to Calais to symbolically meet with Viet Cong, when they werent allowed in England. I think even Adams in his biography admits that the Cheyne House talks were an opportunity to sort things out- thrown away by the Republican side.

Then they army went in. Iremember reading a poem - more a piece of doggerel - in the window of the local recruiting office in the Lincolnshire town where I was at college. the young soldier just regarded all the Irish as yobs. I thought to myself, the presence of this man armed to the teeth will not be helping matters much!

I think those of us with any sense of history could see that the British Army had too much historical baggage to be a peace keeping force in Ireland. I wondered at the time about a UN force - but the reaction of most people was - well its part of our country - our soldiers should be able to come and go. It was dumb, but you couldn't get people to see otherwise - you have to remember that in most our cities we have a lot of Irish people - they are our neighbours and friends usually. And there were a lot of people still around from WW2 = when Northern Ireland had been an ally when Southern Ireland had been neutral. My own father fought with an Irish regiment. so there was some feeling that it was part of our country. although truth to tell - nobody would have given a damn if it had decided to join up with its southern neighbour.

still in the 80's when scarcely a week went past without some local church having a funeral for the kids in uniform - a lot of them weren't much older than kids, and quite a few of them were from round here - high unemployment round here and flashy tv ads had seduced a lot of kids into uniform. Well it was something to live with.

One bloke at our local folk club was a sergeant over there. Some loyalist gang electrified a grating where his lads used to take a pee, thus killing one of his men.   What I'm trying to say is that the loyalists were killing our soldiers as well - so it made us think - well we can't just leave, and open the way to a bloodbath, like Beirut or somewhere.

Then when Thatcher came along. Not many people liked her and her rhetoric was no surrender , no compromise - which played well with her blue rinse fans, but it was pretty damned obvious that there were secret negotiations going on - so it was hard to know what the real state of play was.

I think the Bobby Sands election victiory was a wake up call for English people. Previously we had been told that SF was very marginalised party and their election results up to then seemed to bear that out.

I hope that answers some of your questions Epona. the english army isn't there from the malevolence of the English people - whether James connolly felt he could blame us or not. we will all be very pleased when the troubles are sorted out and they are home.

I have no doubt some of what I said will enrage some people - whatever you seem to say on this subject - it always seems to enrage somebody. sometimes I just feel if could talk peaceably amongst ourselves it would be part of the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:37 PM

The hatred and bigotry in Northern Ireland, on both sides is pre natal, it is then fed to the children in their mother's milk, it will never die.
This is the sad fact about these so called 'Troubles'
G

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Epona
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:52 PM

WLD - You are, by far, one of my favorite people on the 'cat. Always honest and always ready to listen to others. Thank you for that and for your post as well.

E

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 02:55 AM

GUEST,Ex Welsh Guard, what train were you a Guard on Taffy? Maybe it was one that went to Balham.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 03:32 AM

Nice one Al. Someone talking sense at last.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 03:32 AM

terribus - Which is it? Were you in the Army, the Navy or the Marine's cook? Some say you were a gofer.

I think you are probably a wannabe but if you wannabe, why don't you enlist for service in Iraq? If you don't meet the requirements, maybe Haliburton will hire you.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 05:28 AM

We are all curious, but it hardly matters to the argument.
Some here have tried to avoid answering his arguments pretending to be to offended by his history.
Lies were told about what he had posted here, to justify freezing him out of debate. Of course all our posts are available for scrutiny so the lie could not stand, yet weeks later it appears again in this thread.(Welsh Guard)

We are all entitled to our anonymity. Never mind who he is or what he was, if you can not defeat him in debate, resorting to personal attack is a poor substitute.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 05:40 AM

Sweeney,

This is what you said

"Did a bit of smacking myself from the roof of Divis flats a couple of times Ooh Aah. But they never bounced back ! Maybe because they weren't Irish ! "

You did not say shot but the meaning was pretty clear.

Did you not mean shooting from the roof?

Who were the non Irish people who never bounced back?

(You were decent enough to appologise later for making this statement in anger)

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 06:14 AM

okay Keith, but I think civilised debate is the key. He goes looking for reactions and he gets them!

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 06:47 AM

Not looking for reactions WLD, just acknowledgement of certain facts in relation to things that some posters here come out with and the positions they take.

FACT 1 - Nationalist/Republican Paramilitariers killed 6 out of every 10 throughout the 37 years of "The Troubles" (Sorry rounding up but you can't have 5.8 people)

FACT 2 - British armed forces and Security forces were responsible for around 300 deaths nowhere near the third suggested by the PIRA Apologists.

FACT 3 - The bulk of the population of Northern Ireland want it to remain within the United Kingdom. Now if they say they represent the people how come that that is not good enough for them - could it be because they as a minority want to impose their will against the wishes of the majority.

In your post 05 Nov 05 - 07:29 PM you said - "I wondered at the time about a UN force - but the reaction of most people was - well its part of our country - our soldiers should be able to come and go. It was dumb, but you couldn't get people to see otherwise"

Harold Wilson wondered about it too, in 1972 he approached the UN, the US, Canada and NATO - they all turned it down flat. The UN because it went against the articles of their charter, the US and Canada because they knew a damn sight better than to get involved, NATO no because of the neutrality of the Irish Republic. The Republic of Ireland didn't the North because it would have meant them taking on a civil war they could not afford.

Now one thing I have just been thinking about is the reason for this upsurge in threads related to Ireland and the North in particular. A whole host of posters have moved in, some like Divis who openly admit to only posting to defend the PIRA. Now taking that this forum is American based and the bulk of readers and contributers are US based (I don't know this for a fact, it is a supposition) has this upsurge got anything to do with people taking the advantage to raise and air old grievances ahead of an American fund raiser, at which a certain Mr.G. Adams is not being permitted to speak at.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:09 AM

You just come here to lie through your teeth and nobody seems to run with your views. Yes you had one or two croonies along the way but they are now gone. As to your remark about me taking life. That was one too far. The amount of pm's received last night and today regarding that remark and the picture that I now have formed from the pm's really has put you in perspective, I cannot hold anger towards you, pity maybe. Yes I fully support Sinn Feins peaceful approach to constitutional politics. Yes I fully supported the armed struggle, but I moved on. Why not hold a Popularity poll ? I already have the result in 14 pm's. Your remark finished you on this site with many people.You just come across as a sore loser Teribus. This Republican embraces peace in my land, who says I am wrong to do so, you ? And in reality what or who are you, a washed up frustrated old soldier, sorry wannabe soldier who thinks the Irish still need taught a lesson.We Graduated with honours from our Campaign.Accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST,Ralph
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:28 AM

Is everyone aware that Teribus visits this site under the name of GUEST Ooh-Aah2 ? Told me in a pm. Just thought you may like to know.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:38 AM

I will leave the first two contentions to those better informed than I am. But the third is pretty easy. Ever heard of gerrymandering? First the English government displaces the folks that live there, then they set up the political divisions, then they play the Orange card. Easy to create a majority. As to your cite, I am curious as to the date of the information you are using. I know a few years ago, prior to the EU effect on the Republic, most folks wanted to remain a part of GB because economically it made sense. A poll taken today would yield different result, I will wager.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 08:06 AM

bloody hell, it's still handbags at ten paces, isn't it?

let us accept that all of you are right. you are all right about evrything. history's all bollox anyway, depends on who writes it. pay your money, take your choice.

at some point you have to take everything you know as read, and still make friends.

i don't really detect any recent influxes Terri - this sort of thread as always been distressingly bad tempered.

Distressing because the people involved are so obviously intelligent. And if the clever folks can't sort it out......

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST,Ralph
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 08:48 AM

Old material vomited up again.
Subject: RE: BS: IRA Apologizes
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 08:01 AM

It should be remembered that the IRA we are talking about here is the PIRA. Very early on the Official IRA took the stance that there was no role to play and that, through dissention in it's membership, brought about the birth of the Provisional IRA who were responsible for the events of Bloody Friday.
The comment above


"The Irish Government tried to raise the NI problem at the UN in 1969, but UN intervention was blocked by the way the dice are loaded in the Security Council (UK permanent membership)."


Is incorrect wrt how the UN works. The UN are not allowed under the terms of its charter to involve itself with the internal affairs of any country unless invited to do so by the country in question. During the period 1972 - 1974 Harold Wilson proposed an international force. Parties approached were the Americans, the Canadians and NATO (British Forces excluded) - All refused to get involved.

There also seems to be some confusion as to the role of UN peacekeeping forces, which are clearly defined in the UN Charter. They cannot be sent anywhere to impose any settlement or solution, they are deployed to keep warring factions apart, normally along clearly defined borders/front lines (examples: The Lebanon and Cyprus), so that dialogue can commence. They basically arrive to maintain the status quo until a political solution can be worked out by the parties involved. UN peacekeeping forces are lightly armed purely for self defence, they are deployed with no heavy support units as they might be viewed by one side or the other as provocative. Almost always if UN peacekeeping forces come under heavy and sustained attack they are withdrawn immediately.

The second paragraph of the Apology Statement posted above by McGofH states:


"While it was not our intention to injure or kill non-combatants, the reality is that on this and on a number of other occasions, that was the consequence of our actions. "


Twenty bombs were placed in Belfast City Centre, timed to detonate within a period of two hours (one bomb every 6 minutes) while the city was at it's busiest. Damn right they intended civilian casualties, the only reason that the death toll was as light as it was, was through the efforts of the RUC, the emergency services and the British Army.

The role of the army in Northern Ireland was that of "Aid to the Civil Power" - at no time did the army operate independently from civil control. Internment without trial and trial without jury were first used against the IRA in Ireland in 1938 at the instigation of Eamon De Valera, to protect Ireland's neutrality in the war that was foreseen in Europe (The IRA were keen to promote their cause by assisting Nazi Germany) a brief bombing campaign was carried out on the British mainland ( re the song The Auld Alarm Clock).

The statement made should be welcomed and recognised as significant. It clearly demonstrates that the organisation is fully committed to the ongoing peace process - That is the only game in town.

Subsequent to the signing of the Good Friday Agreement there were two referenda held, one in Northern Ireland relating to the Agreement itself, and a second which encompassed the whole of Ireland regarding the use of arms. The results of that second referendum was virtually unanimous in the condemnation of the use of force. Any talk about a return to "the armed struggle", is purely that - talk. It has been clearly shown that they have no mandate to do so and they would be universally vilified if they attempted to return to the use of terror.

How the statement is viewed by the relatives of those killed can only be expressed by those people themselves, but the statement taken at face value shows what I believe to be an honest desire to aid reconciliation and heal the wounds of the past. I hope that along those lines that a further step is taken in the form of accurate information being given in relation to the locations of the graves of those abducted and executed by the PIRA in the course of their campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 09:00 AM

So Divis Sweeney, from your post of 06 Nov 05 - 07:09 AM, I note, as no doubt will others, that you do not dispute any of the facts as stated. Well that is at least progress.

I, like Keith, would also like to know who the non-Irish people were who never bounced back after you smacked them from the roof of Divis Flats. But I predict that you will prove to be a bit reticent about that:

Remember PIRA Spokesperson Rules:
- First Step Issue complete denial;
- Second Step Blatantly Lie;
- Third Step Personally attack those asking the awkward questions;
- Fourth Step Offer insincere and totally inadequate apology while attempting to justify the action that was originally denied as ever having taken place.

No Divi, I think that it is you who are lying through your teeth on this forum. I believe that you are the wannabe here (that is why we will never be offered an explanation regarding your accomplishments from the roof of the Flats). You have got the gall to put yourself forward as "a real soldier" - I don't think so, murder of women and children maybe, but never a soldier - Oh by the bye the Volunteers Green Book was the Bible of the Official IRA, not the PIRA, most who swelled the PIRA's ranks would never have been considered fit candidates by the Official IRA.

I am sure that, if as you say, you fully supported the armed struggle, you would have seen the shit, smelt the smoke, heard the cries, seen the dead, listened to the families. I say that because in two cases out of every three it was the PIRA and their fellow travellers that caused the shit, caused the smoke, caused the cries, caused the deaths, not only did you not listen to the families did you. You and others like you told them to keep their mouths shut or they would have them shut for good, all that being done as you were nailing them to the kitchen floor.

As for Ireland, North or South, I really couldn't care less, and rarely if ever give it a thought. But as I told you before I will go for anyone such as yourself who pops up and boasts of the deeds of any of the paramilitary groups that operated in Northern Ireland.

You certainly have graduated with honours from your campaign, you twats are no longer killing and maiming those you purported to protect (Mr. McCartney aside). Well done, congratulations, please try to keep it that way, there's a good chap. The general population of Ireland will certainly thank you for it, particularly in light of the fact that they never asked your lot to stick their oars in in the first place.

I am not interested in popularity contests, never have been, they signify nothing.

Oh, how did you finish your "Listen you bastard..." post? Oh yes, "I will repay you here, be dam sure of that." Piece of advice Divi - best come loaded for bear, I'm not so easy intimidated as those you are used to dealing with.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Tam the man
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 09:01 AM

So much for peace in Northern Ireland eh!

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 10:13 AM

Oh dear you really are losing the plot now Terminal. Well it's great to see my lads walking around the streets free men out of the Kesh after your government told us they would never see the light of day again! A close friend of mine, and a hell of a great guy was given five life sentences and only served 6 years, bet that really pisses you off ! Now it was your government that freed him and admitted through release that he a political prisoner.I always knew he should never have been in there.You wouldn't believe the amount of Prison Officers and ex Ruc men on the dole without jobs ! It's such a laugh when you think we put in for a grant last April.It was a political heritage grant from the British government. We listed Wall murals, two of them to the great Bobby Sands, and 105 complete computer systems for our ex prisoner centres. And 17 portable buildings for our research students and a five year lease for the land under them. We couldn't believe it, nothing was refused we got the lot!Now this is only in one area. What are you getting in your area, besides hikes in the council tax ! Keep the money coming in Terminal. Did you ever ring that number someone advised you to do ? And I am glad to see that since you left the cook house that your not easy intimidated. Pity that wasn't the case whilst in Ulster ! Keep the money rolling in to us, just rewards to our fine men. Bet there are a lot of ex soldiers living on the breadline Terminal ? None of our lads are.Have to agree with you on one point Terminal, when it comes to money you just can't beat the British ! I note from some of your other posts you even made nasty remarks about your own people living in an area of London, god is no one safe from that mouth of yours ! And then of course once you were pulled up by so many about making Irishmen suffer, again you tried to wriggle out of it. Ah well come the hour, come the man, that's me I am talking about Terminal, not you ! They say reward comes with victory, in our case it does !

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 10:55 AM

FACT 3 - The bulk of the population of Northern Ireland want it to remain within the United Kingdom. Now if they say they represent the people how come that that is not good enough for them - could it be because they as a minority want to impose their will against the wishes of the majority.

I don't want to get involved in the personal mud slinging that has emerged in this thread, it always happens and it always will.
All I would say do is point out to Teribus the history of the minority versus the majority in the north.
It was only by threat of armed insurrection by a MINORITY of mainly protestant land owners under Carson that the present day Northern Ireland was created by the then UK government out of the few counties that voted to stay and a couple that voted for independence. These largely Scottish descended people then proceeded to opress the largely Catholic minority for years. In those days only the rich landlords and property owners had the right to vote so there was no redress through the ballot box.
Is it any wonder with that background and those examples that the Catholic minority espoused the gun and eschewed the ballot box?
Think about it man, it's the classic story of people being doomed to repeat history because they haven't learned from it, and that applies to both sides.
Try a little objectivity for once.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 11:42 AM

Historical points taken Goik, but what has that got to do with the present day

Northern Ireland Life and Time Survey of 2004 found the following:
Desire to remain within the UK - 59%
Desire to unite with RoI - 22%
Form and independent State - 11%
Other - 8%

FACT 3 - The bulk of the population of Northern Ireland want it to remain within the United Kingdom 60% of them according to that survey.

Now if the PIRA say they represent the people how come that that is not good enough for them - could it be because they as a minority want to impose their will against the wishes of the majority. If you are saying it was wrong in the past, then it's just as wrong now - Correct?

Oh DIVI, I see that you've only reached Step Three - Keep working on it, there's a good chap.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 11:58 AM

No yet again gofor your wrong, I know no one who was asked those questions in 2004. We were not asked in the area I live, and the vote of our party says it all. Why do you care about the North ? Oh yes I know your taxes keep my guys at the computers ! including this one. Thanks Terminal. By the way shows what you know. The PIRA DO use the green book as found in the back of Dillons book the Dirty War. Oh but then again I thought an expert crack soldier like you would have known to look for that book in the homes of suspects ! Keep the money coming over, fool.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Epona
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 12:07 PM

And the plot thickens....

E

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST,Eddie Bunting
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 12:08 PM

Why bother with him Divis, he is so wrong on every point. Wait until someone who knows what they are talking about arrives.Had to laugh at his remark about the Green book, for the stickies only.Noyiced he also supports the UVF for their actions in an earlier thread. Said they were DEFENDERS OF ULSTER BY ANY MEANS AND THEIR BRITISH. Does that not say it all ?

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 12:12 PM

Grub up boys !

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 12:27 PM

DIVI, thought you were 'real soldiers' can't you get your side-kick Eddie to keep up, he's lagging, while you are ploughing your way through Step Three, he's still barely over the threshold of Step Two - Blatant Lie.

Not my taxes, Divi, but by all means have all the computers you want at least it keeps them off the streets, after all these years of heroically blowing up old folks, women and children, they probably wouldn't know how to do an honest days work if it jumped up and bit them on the arse. As for the money, no problem I would imagine the UK can afford it, after all your guys did have a bigger habit to feed than most.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 12:36 PM

Very true yet again Terminal, keep the cash coming.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 12:42 PM

Regarding your charts, not worth answering. I only read the ones Sinn Fein produced. As I only read the truth.Sorry son not for your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 01:00 PM

Teribus - Thanks for the PM but why did you say you drove a ship? I thought ships were steered.

When considering a majority in Ireland, the island should be taken as a whole especially when Northern Ireland was created by a minority.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 01:00 PM

Always got the impression that you were a bit one dimensional when it came to your sources of information - that's what makes you such an easy target when it comes to shooting your arguements and line of reasoning to bits - I don't do it from the roof of the Flats though.

Still haven't answered that one have you, but then I don't think you ever will.

As for the Green Book, judging by your appearance on this forum and by the statements made by you in this forum - you've just about broken every rule in that book. Have not read Dillon, but I have read Tim Pat Coogan's Book on the IRA, it contains a rather scaithing description of the regard Provo volunteers were held in by their Offical counterparts.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 01:10 PM

I hold the Officals in the same equal to yourself, so that says enough. I will answer your question when you answer all these people that asked you for two weeks about remarks you made in earlier posts and then didn't have the balls to repeat them.Green book no longer applies since 27th July since the war ended, but you wouldn't know that would you. Ah well clearly won another one over you today !

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 02:42 PM

Sweeney,
You said of Teribus
"I note from some of your other posts you even made nasty remarks about your own people living in an area of London,"

Is this the Balham story, because if it is you have been lied to.

He really did not make such a post.

Attempting to discredit the opposition with lies undermines your credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Epona
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 03:15 PM

I suppose that could go both ways, couldn't it?

E

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 03:35 PM

Oh Terminal the troops have arrived at last. Good to see where your loyalties are Keith. Saw you were not so quick to pull him on the remarks he made about me. Noted and remembered. So now the ex,soldier, ex Marine is driving ships ! Yes we get a lot of rain over here, but I can't ever recall seeing the armada come up the Lower Falls ! A few of us were going through the pm's I received today, and there was not a dry eye in the house. Please don't stop now, Keep your posts coming, we love them. As one put it, Great to see after our victory we can still get them angry. Rambo come on down !

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 03:49 PM

I was trying to be helpful!

For the record, I don't think much of the name calling from either of you.

If he is lying, I am not aware of it, but lies about Mudcat posts are easy to nail. He never posted about interrogating, or about the people of Balham.

Are you saying the TimeLife survey is a lie?
Or the death tallies?

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 04:19 PM

I have neither the Inclination or interest in searching Rambo's posts. There were a lot of people questioned him about it, that's what I referred to, no smoke without fire. As to the charts, Rambo stated the Provisional now killed all victims of the troubles ! Never hear him so no about British army murders of the Irish ? Or you for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 04:32 PM

He did NOT say the Provisionals killed all the victims!
Are you reading the same posts as the rest of us?

Also he has NEVER said he was a soldier, and specifically said he was NOT a marine.

You should go through his posts before pronouncing on them because you are being lied to and it does not help you to repeat obvious lies.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 06:53 PM

Which part of this Keith do you have trouble understanding ? Teribus - PM
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 01:46 PM

Hello there GUEST Eddie Bunting - Any apology from the organisation that you obviously support for killing that lady's brother???

Not at fuckin' hope.

The ten young men you allude to died of their own free will and were allowed to do so, all well and good they supported an organisation that were responsible for the deaths of 2055 and injuring somewhere in the region of 47,500. greatest good for the greatest number - 10 was a very cheap price to pay, apart from which Sands was a very poor historian and a writer of some absolutely appalingly inaccurate songs.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Epona
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:03 PM

Actually, the PIRA, in the Sutton index, were blamed for 1700+ deaths. (The number was in the 1700s). So, the statement "they supported an organisation that were responsible for the deaths of 2055," (the organization they supported being the PIRA) should be altered to read the real number. But, Teri was correct in the early posts when he cites Republican/Nationalist paramilities being held responsible for the 2055 deaths.

E

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:09 PM

Question Rambo, was the lobotomy painful ?

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 12:34 AM

Quite frankly, I am disappointed that the folks whose view I support are letting themselves get dragged into a dispute over who said what. It is the classic tactic by those whose actions are indefensible. It is called "shifting the premise". In this debate the defenders of the Crown have managed to make the discussion about all manner of things that are not germane.

There is no defense of UK actions in the North, most especially during the time of Thatcher. Who killed how many only serves to obscure the real issue which has to do with the actions of the British military, the RUC, and the various loyalists groups in denying basic civil rights to the Catholic/Republican citizens. This has been substantiated at every level. War is war, whether it is being fought by regular armies or by guerilla forces has no bearing on its legitimacy. ANC, the Free French, and many others demonstrate this point.

The McCartney family suffered a terrible loss. So have the families of fallen British soldiers in the North. As have the families of the IRA soldiers that died in this war, whether on the streets or in the Kesh. It is time to bury the dead and get on with peace. Remember them in whatever way has significance to you. And then get about the business at hand. The children of the North deserve this. There should not be one more generation that grows up looking over their shoulders.

The demographics are changing, lads. And so are the politics. Anyone who fights that will simply be a sad loser.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 01:38 AM

Fair enough Mick, but it is hard not to challenge a cynical campaign of lies against a Mudcat contributor in an attempt to discredit him.

You are right of course about demography. Pro Brithishness currently is the majority in the North, but soon that will change.

Funny and sad to think that if PIRA had made love instead of war they would have achieved a united Ireland sooner.

Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:26 AM

Good to see we're all moving on then

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:38 AM

Hi dianavan,

'drive' is the slang term used, to be technically correct while the helmsman (Cox'n and Bosun's mates in the RN) may steer the ship, the Officer of Watch cons the ship.

The GFA specifically stated that it would be up to the population of Northern Ireland to decide in a referendum whether or not THEY wanted to be part of the UK or be part of a united Ireland. The survey undertaken in 2004 would seem to indicate that 59% of the population wish to within the United Kingdom. In a referendum question put to the whole population of Ireland at the time of the GFA, a massive majority (high 80's) totally rejected the use of violence in the determination of politics in Ireland - that vote exploded the myth that the PIRA or any other paramilitary group were acting on behalf of, or at the request of the people of Ireland.

In a previous post on who should have been included in a referendum right at the start of 'The Troubles' I said that had that included the whole of the British Isles (geographically speaking) the population on the British mainland would have favoured the abandonment of Northern Ireland. The historian, A.J.P. Taylor was all for pulling out and just letting them get on with it, he was of the opinion that their little sectarian row was not worth the life of a single soldier, policeman or member of the emergency services. Lots agreed with him but from the Governments point of view (UK and Ireland's) that was never an option.

Of course had that happened Divi and his little band of volunteers would never have got their computers and would not now be tapping away at their keyboards and arguing over what GUEST name to adopt for their next post. The mental picture of them down in their 'centre', providing moral support as they collectively try to shake of their addiction to what ever drugs they were fed, in their second hand combat jackets and balaclavas all pouring over the internet, while Divi informs them of what is truth and what is lie (Under direction from his man Martin).

As Keith said the lies are easily disproved on this forum - Divi can continue to rely on them - I will settle for independently obtained and verified fact.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:49 AM

I have stated on more than one occasion on this site my desire to pursue peace in MY country and welcomed July's statement that the war is over. I have stated on this site regret at the loss of life during the armed struggle. I have stated on this site I have no support for dissident Republican groups. I have stated on this site that the murder of Robert McCarntney was wrong. What the hell more from me do you want ? All I get is events of 30 years ago being thrown in my face and although I state regret and have echoed the apology, still it's not enough. Regarding your remark about a cynical campaign Keith, is your friend here the only victim ? Has he stated his regret ? If anyone makes verbal attacks on the Provisionals I will retaliate. I suppose now I am at fault for being a Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:58 AM

Divis Sweeney, that post of 07 Nov 05 - 04:49 AM is plainly and clearly stated. That's good enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:59 AM

Thanks Teribus

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:08 PM

Threads like this remind me of Stan Rogers' song: "The House Of Orange".

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 05:22 PM

I guess if you say so. I don't see much resemblance. Stan's song is about blind allegiance and never questioning. This thread, despite its contentious moments is really about the hard questions, and folks talking it through. It is the antithesis of what Stan was saying, IMO.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 01:17 AM

I had been reading through this thread with great interest and enjoyment - I love the smell of hot, cross Irishmen in the morning! - when I noticed that one GUEST, Ralph, had, on 6/11 at 7:28AM, claimed that I am Teribus in disguise, and that he had told him so in a pm! What rubbish! I am an English Tasmanian living near Hobart (Check my other posts if you don't believe me). Another pathetic attempt to rubbish Teribus which says a lot about the poor calibre of his opposition.

Keep it up Teribus. You've got the sad spotty would be street-fitin' men absolutely foaming with impotent hatred simply by being honest and refusing to be browbeaten, and it's great entertainment.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 01:41 AM

Divis Sweeney, I am re-reading some of your posts with disbelief - a lower level of shrill juvenile gibberish would be hard to imagine - you should be ashamed of yourself. I am a Primary school teacher and the kind of arguments and abuse you are producing are characteristic of a bad-tempered grade three footy match.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 02:28 AM

But in the end we had a rare meeting of minds and civility.
Teribus had been free with insults too.

If you post as a guest, someone could post as you without you noticing, though not Teribus I think.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 03:19 AM

Tell us about these football matches in New Zealand then. They sound like fun.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 03:41 AM

Would all decent Englishmen please leave this thread at the earliest opportunity, and leave the treacherous pro IRA terrorists to stew in their own bile. I thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: GUEST,Ralph
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:16 AM

Ooh-Aah2 Why did you say it then ? Oh a primary school teacher ! Bet that job pleases you. You seem the type !

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:29 AM

Guest Ralph,
You told us that Teribus said it, in a pm to you.

As a guest, how did you receive a pm?

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 06:45 AM

Still thinking about that one Ralph?
Perhaps I can help.

I expect you know about pm's because you are a member under another name.
Your pathetic attempt to smear teribus marks you out as a liar and a moron.
Your attempt to sustain the lie by attacking Ooh Ahh, who was not involved in any of this, marks you out as scum of the lowest order.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Tam the man
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 07:18 AM

Talk about peace

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 08:18 AM

Come on Tam.
We actually had agreement between the two sides,

but no thanks to the likes of Guest Ralph.

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Tam the man
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 08:39 AM

anyway what has all this got to do with the McCartney sisters?

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 08:40 AM

Accuracy in songs has never been a particularly important requirement. Is there going to be someone going to start going round revising all our songs to make them "accurate"? (McGrath)

This is a good topic for an extra thread (I might even start it). BTW, I have never seen yet complaints about accuracy of songs in Mudcat except in threads about Northern Ireland. This time the complaint did come from an anti-Republican. I remember that a similar complaint once came from the other side.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: McCartney Sisters see sense at last !
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 08:52 AM

'Twas on Good Friday morning, all in the month of May ...

Near enough, it's only folk after all.