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BS: Have you voted yet?!
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Subject: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Dani Date: 08 Nov 05 - 03:59 PM Don't forget! Show up and be counted. In most places you have until 7pm. Dani |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Wesley S Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:10 PM Yup - voted at 9:15 this morning. We have a really nasty constitutional admendment on the ballot here in Texas. I'm afraid it's going to pass. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:12 PM I voted no. They should have painted it during the summer when no one was around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: GUEST,saulgoldie Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:13 PM Can't. No election! But trust me that I WOULD! Haven't missed an election! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Peace Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:13 PM I'm in Canada. Snap election of which I'm unaware? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: number 6 Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:16 PM yup |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Peace Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:20 PM We may have one before Christmas, sIx. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: kendall Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:25 PM Damn right I did. The control freaks want to repeal Maine's anti discrimination law. They got my NO vote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: number 6 Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:26 PM I know Peace ... not looking forward to it. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Ebbie Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:27 PM No election here today- but we had a City one last month. I voted. Does that count? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Musique174 Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:32 PM Voted... The governator here in CA wants all kinds of unfair things to pass... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: leftydee Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:47 PM I voted yes to a city millage increase and school millage increase today here in Royal Oak Michigan. Nobody likes taxes, but taxes are the dues you pay for civilization. I kind of like to pay as we go unlike the neocon lunkheads that want my grandchildren to pay in the future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: John O'L Date: 08 Nov 05 - 05:15 PM Vote early, vote often. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Peace Date: 08 Nov 05 - 05:40 PM Well, yeah! Is Diebold operating there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Bunnahabhain Date: 08 Nov 05 - 05:51 PM So it's not the Tory leadership election then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Don Firth Date: 08 Nov 05 - 07:24 PM Did the deed just a bit ago. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: mack/misophist Date: 08 Nov 05 - 09:46 PM Yes. Streight Demo ticket for the first time in quite a while. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: bobad Date: 08 Nov 05 - 10:03 PM " taxes are the dues you pay for civilization" I like that leftydee, I'm always trying to think of a comeback when I hear people bitch and moan about taxes, they don't seem to realize that the quality of life they enjoy here in North America is brought about largely through their taxes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: jaze Date: 08 Nov 05 - 10:06 PM Yes. Still waiting here in VA. But, it being VA., I try not to get too disappointed in the results! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Peace Date: 08 Nov 05 - 10:11 PM An apt paraphrase of the statement from Oliver Wendell Holmes: "Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society." But I'm beginning to think we ain't payin' enough taxes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Bobert Date: 08 Nov 05 - 10:21 PM Yeah, I voted fir Tim Kaine fir governor of Virgina who has beaten Republican Jerry "Negative-Attack-Ad" Kilgore... Even George "10-Percent-Approval-Ratin'" Bush's visit here last night couldn't help Kilgoore... Probably hurt him but Kilgore is loosing like 5 percentage points so you can't blame this lose on Bush alone... Kilgore gets some credit... So does now governor Mark Warner, who has skillfully taken Virgina from one of the worst managed states to one of the best.... Now on the local front, my friend, Lee McWhorter lost by 60 votes to become the Chairamn of the Page County Board of Supervisors.... Sniff... I'll be his campaine manager in two years and he'll take it... All we gotta find is 660 danged votes in over 5,00 cast... I'll get him turned around... Yopu ain't heard the last from my boy... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: leftydee Date: 08 Nov 05 - 10:30 PM Bobad, Well... I guess it was O W Holmes said that. All this time I thought it was my dear old Grandpa Clarence. It makes more sense being OWH's, though Clarence was a wise old bird! Anyway, it is the truth. Lefty |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Bobert Date: 08 Nov 05 - 10:36 PM Ahhh, make that 60 votes outtta 5,000... That's doable... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Peace Date: 08 Nov 05 - 10:39 PM My apologies to you and your grandpa, leftydee. We'll have to trade a few stories at some point. My grandfather and your grandfather may have been twins. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: ranger1 Date: 09 Nov 05 - 08:23 AM I voted before this thread was up. I do every year, because I was brought up to believe that it is my civic duty. And, as my grampa P'nut used to say: "if you don't vote, don't bitch about who got elected." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: EBarnacle Date: 09 Nov 05 - 09:27 AM Got out there and was counted but lost in NYC anyway. We got snowed under by the fact that our guy didn't really say who he was, which left the argument to his opponent and by massive spending. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Nov 05 - 11:58 AM Let's say that you were just living an innocent sort of life, and one day someone said to you: "Look here, we have this system here for giving you a 'leader', know'm sayin'? What we do is we pick 2 guys to be your 'leader' and you vote for the one guy you like best. The first guy is Joe Snake, a man well known for embezzlement, lying, cheating, and running the rackets. He is your Democratic candidate. He has a great smile and can talk like a Boston lawyer. The other guy is Bill Crapp, a man well known for child abuse, dealing in human slavery, lying, cheating, and not showering. He also has a great smile, terrific suits, and he talks like Charlton Heston. You'll just love him. Okay...so you gotta vote for one of these guys. This is what we call democracy. You gotta vote for them, because they are the guys that the parties chose to represent you, and the parties are the only guarantee we have of democracy. Yessiree. The parties have YOUR interests in mind. They really do. In fact, the only thought they HAVE is how they can SERVE you ordinary people and keep this country strong, proud, and free. Yes, the Democratic and Republican parties are organizations you can TRUST and COUNT ON to always act on behalf of you, the little guy. So get out there and vote! Now you have to realize that this system is based on competition, so it is your civic duty to favor one party over the other. While doing so, you will probably develop a real hatred for the party you don't decide to vote for, because they are an impediment to getting YOUR guy elected. This is understandable. So go ahead and hate them, hate your neighbour because he is voting for the other guy, and raise freakin' hell about it every 2 years on the Internet, and teach your kids what total idiots those people are who support the other party. That's normal. It happens in democracy. But it's okay. Because it is also your civic duty after the election is won to start "healing the wounds" and all "pull together" and support whoever got elected. You know why? Because there are worse threats out there than the party you didn't vote for. Damn right, son! There are foreign weirdos out there who don't even speak American! There are commies, terrorists, and all kinds of UnAmerican people who are a threat to your security, and you need to all join together as one and support either Joe Snake...or Bill Crapp...so we can allocate funds and send the Marines in and kick some foreign ass! Joe Snake. Bill Crapp. These are names you can trust. Get out there and vote. It is your civic duty. The Democratic Party sits on the left hand of God. The Republican Party sits on the right. God Bless America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: GUEST,leftydee Date: 09 Nov 05 - 12:11 PM No apology necessary, Peace! I'm sure Clarence didn't claim that thought as his own and never objected to the facts on any subject. If your Grandfather was as cool as mine, you're a lucky person. I'd love to hear some stories sometime! Lefty |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: GUEST,saulgoldie Date: 09 Nov 05 - 01:33 PM LH, we will always have imperfect leaders. We will have imperfect friends, lovers, parents, children, teachers, imperfect songs, musicians, producers, you get the picture. We are all humans, and as such subject to the quality of being human, which is to say, fallible. I have had the pleasure of voting for people I preferred much more than their opponents, and I have voted for people who were barely a curly red hair above the alternative. It ALWAYS makes a difference, and there is ALWAYS someone who is if not better, then at least less worser. If we didn't have a system of government, then we would have much more chaos and disorder, and likely not be able to assemble such things as roads, educations systems, international problem resolution. Indeed, if we did not have some form of government, then there wouldn't BE governments to diplomatize. Imagine trying to wrangle over issues of commerce, travel, law enforcement, to mention a few without having governments. I think we can do a whole lot better. (Don't get me off on a rant about President Shrub!) And we SHOULD. But without governments we would surely be a whole lot worse off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Nov 05 - 02:04 PM For sure, Saul. ;-) No problem. I do the same thing, more or less, in Canada. We have 3 or 4 silly political parties to vote for here, none of which really represent us, but there ARE worse choices, no doubt about it. What I was actually suggesting in my satirical remarks was this: political parties are probably not the best way to achieve democracy in a society. Matter of fact, in my opinion they are one of the worst ways to achieve it. The sad thing is this. When people are born into a foolish social system it never occurs to most of them that it could BE any different. They take it for granted. They once did that with the idea of kings, royal families, and divine right, passed on by birth! Yes, crazy as it sounds now, that was once the norm in every country in what was considered the "civilized" world. That idea was not seriously questioned until the American Revolution and the French Revolution challenged it. Most people in the monarchical systems in Europe were aghast that ANYONE could possibly challenge the authority of monarchs! Such revolutionaries were considered to be dangerous subversives of the worst sort. They were viewed the way Communists were later viewed in the non-Communist world. Nevertheless, their ideas proved attractive to many of the disenfranchised (as also happened with Communism in places like Russia, China, Cuba, etc...). As time goes by a once heretical idea can become the new norm. Then people take IT for granted. Every norm can be improved upon or changed radically when a better alternative is seen. For some reason, shortly after establishing the USA, George Washington and his colleagues saw fit to establishing artificial organization called political parties...and only 2 of them (!)...thus turning a vote into a sort of giant football game with a winner and a loser. I don't think that's a good way of running a workable and democratic system. The political parties become, like a coroporation, a living but artificial entity, a power structure, whose primary motivation is to maintain and enlarge itself. To survive and prosper. They become self-serving, in other words. This does not lead to good government, it leads to every sort of corruption and power-seeking. It does not lead to public service, it leads to manipulative propaganda and payoffs and lobbying. I am suggesting dismantling political parties altogether and destroying those archaic power structures. A country would frankly be better off if qualified people were chosen at random lot than it is going through the sort of divisive and idiotic elections that we go through (most of which consist of cynical attempts to discredit and attack one's opponents and stir up people's fears and resentments). But such a random lot is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting totally ending the practive of having competitive political parties, and voting simpy for individuals, on the basis of their ideas and their qualifications. I am suggesting funding of those individuals' campaigns from a public fund...each candidate receiving equal funding and equal air time to present his/her ideas to the public. THAT would be a democracy. That would end the sort of vicious, divisive tactics we see in government all the time, where one party rules at the expence of the other, and both seek to cause scandal and embarassment wherever they may. Our present $ySStem is a sham. It's disgraceful. It's not democratic, and it's not representative. What I suggest, however, is unusual enough that it will be regarded as Patrick Henry's ideas in 1776 were regarded in England. Sheer lunacy. Patrick Henry thought outside the box of conventionality of his day. That made him a free man...or a lunatic. Depends on your viewpoint, doesn't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Rapparee Date: 09 Nov 05 - 03:13 PM Since I wasn't in town yesterday I voted absentee about a month ago. Results of the local city election in the VERY "red" state of Idaho: Mayor, a sensible middle-of-the-roader and a Democrat: re-elected, 1.7 to 1 margin. Coucilman 1, head of the state Democratic party and former member of the House of Representatives: re-elected, better than 2 to 1 margin. Councilman 2, former fire chief, middle of the road Republican: re-elected, 2.1 to 1. Councilman 3, very slightly conservative middle-of-the-road Republican: defeated by eight (8) votes. His opponent, a very slightly Leftist ordained minister (and recent Fulbright scholar), was also an excellent choice, at least from my point of view. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Don Firth Date: 09 Nov 05 - 04:46 PM Little Hawk, these are some of the very same points that Paul Woodruff makes in his book First Democracy : The Challenge of an Ancient Idea, early on in the book. He points out a few things that most people assume are necessary for democracy, but which actually work against it. Voting, for example, is meaningless if the choices you're given reflect essentially the same special interests, but not the interests of the people (sounds kinda familiar). Voting, yes, in certain specific circumstances. But that isn't the end of it, by any means. And political parties actually work toward the same thing. The "outcumbent" party usually assumes that they'll have a better chance of winning next time if they become more like the incumbent party. After a few rounds of elections, they're indistinguishable. And parties generally start out by reflecting one special interest or another. Another one that people assume is democratic is majority rule. This usually results in what might be called "the tyranny of the majority." The minority, with no one to really represent their interests, get screwed. As flawed as Athenian democracy was—women were not included in deliberations and some Athenians kept slaves—there were many Athenians who were identifying these flaws and speaking out strongly to change them. They were working diligently to eliminate these and other flaws, and were well on the way when Philip of Macedonia (father of Alexander the Great) invaded and brought it to a halt, replacing it with his own dictatorship. Democracy didn't fail as some people claim, it was destroyed by outside forces. No attempt at democracy was made again for over two-thousand years. And we're far from the best that the Athenians were able to accomplish. In fact, instead of progressing as the Athenians were, the United States is regressing. We're falling way, way short. In fact, in many ways, Athenian democracy was far more representative of the interests of its citizens than what exists in America today. And here we are, trying to cram our version down other people's throats. Woodruff outlines seven requirements for a viable democracy, and explains why this things are essential. I strongly recommend the book to anyone who thinks he or she knows what democracy really is. It'll really surprise you and open your eyes, believe me! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Don Firth Date: 09 Nov 05 - 04:58 PM In fact, here's a shocker for most people: Athenian leaders were not voted into office, they were chosen by lottery. Any citizen could wind up in office, and it was a citizen's duty to serve and serve well. And they were held accountable at the end of their term for how well or how poorly they did. That's when they were voted on. So it behooved an Athenian citizen to stay boned up on what was going on, because he might be called upon to make important decisions. But at the same time, the Athenian educational system was very good, so there was no excuse for not being up on things. How are we doin', folks? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Nov 05 - 06:36 PM Good stuff, Don. Could you briefly state the 7 essential requirements that Woodruff proposes? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Don Firth Date: 09 Nov 05 - 07:25 PM A little sticky to do, LH, because Woodruff devotes a whole chapter to each one. But--hey!--it'll be good exercise for me to try to boil each one down to a sentence or two. I've been meaning to do that anyway to make sure I have them clear in my own mind and for purposes of discussion, but it may take me a day or two. I'll get back to you. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Nov 05 - 07:41 PM Repressentative democracy is an oxymoron. Real democracy means you represent yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: GUEST,Dani Date: 09 Nov 05 - 10:30 PM My candidate for mayor in our little town won by about 56 votes. New to politics, he just believes he can do a good job, and has ideas, and a willingness to engage in the task. We'll see.... but it feels good today! It feels mighty like democracy to me. May I share a quote with you? This is from Bill Bradley, former senator from NJ, one-time Democratic Presidential candidate, and a hero of mine. He said: "American civilization is like a 3 legged stool, with government and the private sector being 2 legs and the 3rd being civil society, the place where we live our lives, educate our kids, worship our God, and associate with our neighbors. 'Too often, liberals have refused to emphasize the role that hard work, self-reliance, and individual responsibility have to play in devising a solution to poverty or pathology. Conservatives, on the other hand, fail to acknowledge that the government can be used to promote the common good. 'There is a third way, which emphasizes governance, not government. Governance is something we do for ourselves, by participating in our community and taking charge of our lives, not in a context without government, but with a government that supports our efforts." Dani |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: ranger1 Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:58 AM Don Firth, many of my generation (I'm 36) and the one behind me believe that there is something better than what we've got now. We're getting fed up, and hopefully we'll make changes for the better. Thanks for the book info. It's gone to the top of my reading list. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Don Firth Date: 10 Nov 05 - 03:07 PM Hot diggity!! I just found a review of First Democracy that does a fairly neat job of briefly summing up the seven requirements of a true democracy, and other aspects. I hope this doesn't lead people feel that now they know what it's all about so they don't need to read the book. If there were a "Cliff's Notes" version of the book, this would just be a preface. DO get the book and read it. I'm actually studying it rather diligently. First Democracy : The Challenge of an Ancient Idea by Paul WoodruffI would like to credit the writer of this review, but it was unsigned. Anyway—get the book and read it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Nov 05 - 03:26 PM Thank you, Don. I am particularly impressed by the concept of "Natural Equality" (the idea that there is a general human nature and potential. This is more than pro forma equality before the law, or equality of economic opportunity; it is a belief in the natural goodness and inherent worth of each individual person.) That is a vital spiritual understanding, and it is found in all the valuable spiritual teachings. It is from such an understanding that we derive justice, decency, fairness, mercy, compassion, and most other notable human virtues. It does not, of course, mean that everyone is equal in their various characteristics, talents, strengths or capabilities! It merely means that everyone else has an equal right to be treated as we would all wish to be treated ourselves. That's the Golden Rule. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Don Firth Date: 10 Nov 05 - 04:34 PM Was it Rabbi Hillel? Or was it Rabbi Zusya, who, when asked "tell me what your religion is all about while standing on one foot" (which is to say, briefly). The Rabbi responded, "What is hateful unto thyself, do not do unto others." Jesus said essentially the same thing with "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Maybe if it's repeated often enough and long enough, it will eventually sink in. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Kaleea Date: 10 Nov 05 - 05:11 PM In California, we told the governator that if he wants to propose something, it better be in the interests of the people, you know, the ones who are not megagazilionaires. Perhaps it's time for the people of the USA to choose a write in candidate. I used to prefer the presidential candidate, Pat Paulson, (rag for pres on the Smothers Brothers regularly) but he went to meet his maker. We need a good & solid guy like Pat (may he rest in peace), or perhaps someone's doggie or chimpanzee, to promote with a grassroots campaign which would strike fear in the hearts of the gop & democrats. Someone who is poor, and perhaps living in a homeless shelter. Then, leak it to the press. They could show footage of the candidate eating Thanksgiving & Christmas dinner at a shelter, recalling the "bad ol' days" in Nam with buddies being blown to bits on all sides-and saying that we should all believe in world peace. Then, the homeless candidate could hoof it all across the country, press in tow, campaigning by saying "I don't want to be president." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have you voted yet?! From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:00 PM Chongo Chimp for president! It's time to put a chimp in the White House and shake the mangos out of the trees so that everyone gets a fair share. Chongo won't lie to you, he won't take payoffs, and he won't quit till the job is done. Rumors that he is prejudiced against gorillas and loan sharks are...well, they're just rumors. Pay no attention to that at all. Rumors that he fancies long-legged dames are...also just...rumors. Yeah. |
