BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore

Subject: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 06:20 AM

What can one say about it? 1000 executions in the USA since 1976, with no apparent effect on the crime rate, but it gets politicians re-elected.

And mediaeval Singapore (for all its highrise gloss) posturing about being tough on drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 07:19 AM

Well that's 1,000 who sure as hell won't re-offend.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: mooman
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 07:31 AM

Here are the official stats:

Texas - 355
Virginia - 94
Oklahoma - 79
Missouri - 66
Florida - 60
Georgia - 39
North Carolina - 38
South Carolina, Alabama - 34 each
Louisiana, Arkansas - 27 each
Arizona - 22
Ohio - 19
Indiana - 16
Delaware - 14
Illinois - 12
Nevada, California - 11 each
Mississippi, Utah - 6 each
Maryland, Washington - 4 each
Nebraska, Pennsylvania - 3 each
Kentucky, Montana, Oregon - 2 each
Colorado, Connecticut, Idaho, New Mexico, Tennessee, Wyoming - 1 each
US government - 3

Source: US Death Penalty Information Center

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 08:31 AM

Put it as executions per million population:

Oklahoma - 22.6
Delaware - 17.5
Texas    - 16.9
Virginia - 13.4
Missouri - 11.8
Arizona - 10.0

Just the ones over 10.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 08:49 AM

Whether or not the death penalty is barbaric is mote; if change is required it must come from within the society.

But consider too that the penalties weren't secret -- those committing the crimes knew the consequences.

And no, I'm not necessarily an advocate for the death penalty -- I think that it's less than whatever it is that makes us "human."

But it does have a low recidivism rate.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 08:52 AM

"What can one say about it? 1000 executions in the USA since 1976, with no apparent effect on the crime rate, but it gets politicians re-elected."

What an idiotic statement.

The death penalty is not about getting politicians elected. The death penalty is not about affecting the crime rate. The death penalty IS about offering consequences for actions. Whatever happened to offering adequate consequences for actions?

The true argument is what is the adequate consequence for brutally taking someones life in an unlawful manner?

Besides that, why are you so quick to offer your opinion about your opposition to the death penalty for a person who brutally kills someone but yet you still defend the needless killing of millions of innocent babies and hide behind it by calling it choice? Hmmm?

Just wondering.

I'm not trying to change the subject but if we're talking about killing then let's talk about it. All of it.

You Game?



Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 09:14 AM

those committing the crimes knew the consequences

Sorry Rapaire but unfortunately those committing ANY crimes do not do so with the expectation of getting caught:-( They inevitably think they can get away with it. Which means that punishment is not an effective deterrant.

Now, as to Susu's hubbys statement that it is about offering consequences for actions, oddly enough, I agree. I am not agreeing with the death penalty - I am quite against - but the only justifications are a) As a prevention of re-occurance and b) As a obvious consequence to the act so that at least the victims family can gain some closure from it.

So, it has been shown at least a 1000 times in the US since 1976 that it is not a deterrant. Prevention of re-occurance can also be achieved by incarceration until death. If we now rely on the remaining justification, vengance, should it not be left to those closest to the victim to decide? Ie the remaining family members or loved ones? Not an answer I'm afraid because I do not know and hopefuly never will know how I would feel under the circumstances.

I'm not trying to change the subject but if we're talking about killing then let's talk about it. All of it.

If you are not trying to change the argument why bring up anything else? What do you mean by 'All of it'? Do we include the millions who die because us in the West cannot be bothered to help them? Do we count those lost in wars? No, sorry, I for one am not 'game'. It's too big an issue if we include 'All of it'. If you want to start a thread on any other aspect of 'barbarity' feel free to do so.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 09:23 AM

Never said that, DtG. What I said was that they knew the consequences, not that they expected to get caught.

Prisons are full of innocent men and women -- just ask them.

(Oddly enough, men seem to claim innocence far more often than women. Maybe women can accept self-responsibility better.)

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 09:32 AM

Sorry, Rapaire - Just re-read and you are quite right of course. It does leave me a little confused though (easy enough to confuse me!) If knowing the 'consequences' is not a reference to it being a deterrant can you enlighten me as to what it does mean? I feel I am missing something:-(

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: mooman
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 09:33 AM

Trouble is some of them are actually innocent...

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 09:39 AM

Dave,

It isn't about being a deterrant. And even if it was, it's impossible to determine how many murders WERE NOT committed because of the possibility of receiving the death penalty so the deterrant excuse won't work. For either side. The 1000 figure is just a representation of how many times it either wasn't a deterrant or people thought they wouldn't get caught.

It's strictly about consequences for actions.

Again, the true argument lies within the boundaries of what is an adequate consequence for the action of unlawfully taking someone's life?

For me, I'm a little extreme when it comes to this. If you take someone's life then yours should be taken as well. Of course I don't subscribe to a zero tolerance policy on the issue because if the death is caused by an accident that possibly could have been avoided due to someone just being careless then maybe the death penalty can be looked at as being, maybe, exchanged for life either with or without the possibility of parole. Accidents happen. But that doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be punished just because it's an accident that could have been avoided.

If you're going to be big and brave enough to do the crime then at least be big and brave enough to accept the penalty.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 09:44 AM

Yes, Moo, and that's the problem.

DtG, if they thought they'd get caught they wouldn't do it. But the punishments aren't there to deter, they're there to punish. Not to rehabilitate, but to punish.

If the sign says, "Danger of electrocution! Don't fool around with this!" and you do, you must accept the possible consequences. But you can't say you weren't warned. If Singapore says, "We punish drug dealers with hanging" you might not think you'll get caught, but you can't say you weren't warned.

Please note that I'm not arguing the morality, the ethics, or anything else here. I'm simply saying that the consequences were known.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 11:39 AM

Hey Rap...

I guess that puts you and me on the same page in an odd sort of way!


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 11:57 AM

Just for fun, Hubby, do you favor the death penalty for politician who make stupid decisions that costs thousands of lives?

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 12:19 PM

Its a sensual thing. Either you feel it's wrong, and you think I'd like to do that.

Or you feel it's wrong, and you decide not to do it.

Warden Howe who wrote 10000 years in Sing Sing, explained how he was besieged with letters for people who all had wonderful reasons for wanting to be at an execution. And he thought the most popular radio broacast in the history of radio would be a live commentary from the execution chamber - listeners getting off on the sensual pleasure of killing someone.

That's what its about. everybody knows its wrong to kill people. Whatever the reason, its not good enough. it merely satisfies sadism by proxy.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 12:39 PM

It seems to me that all punishment that requires putting the prisoner away for a period of time is Society's way of saying, "Your violation of Society's rules is such that we feel you should be banished for a period of time." In the best cases "And we will try to change your behavior so that you can function within our rules after you are allowed to to return."

The death penalty, in this view, would (or should) be Society saying, "Your behavior is such that we feel that your very existence must be terminated. We do not feel that you can be salvaged." And this should only be done (if at all) in sorrow and with the greatest reluctance -- and shamefully and solemnly, for Society itself failed.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 12:44 PM

We can't guarantee 100 percent accuracy in our convictions. We never will be able to do so. Because of this, in consideration of the fact that even one innocent person being executed for a crime committed by someone else is a travesty of justice, as well as unconstitutional, the death penalty IS barbaric and completely unjust.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 01:13 PM

CarolC, may I point out the Fifth Amendment of the US Constitution? I've highlighted certein things.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

In brief, rightly or wrongly the US Constitution does not preclude the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 01:23 PM

Are you saying, Rapaire, that it is Constitutional for an innocent person to be put to death for a crime committed by someone else?

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: mooman
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 01:34 PM

Here are some interesting (and worrying) figures concerning innocent people executed and innocent people released from death row.

This figures are just for the US. Here in Europe, the death penalty has long been abolished in most countries.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 02:42 PM

In actual fact, there isn't much difference between a death sentence and life imprisonment. Out here in sunny California, there have been eleven executions since the death penalty was resumed in 1978. During that same period there have been 12 suicides and 30 have died of natural causes.
At present there are 647 inmates on death row here and, at the rate we're going, there's little chance of any individual actually being executed.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 03:33 PM

Has Texas continued to execute at the rate they did under Dubblyew?
While he was running the first time, the facts began to surface in a big way regarding the number of innocents sentenced to death. His response was, in effect, "In Texas, we don't make any mistakes". That was one of the major reasons I was strongly opposed to his presidency in the first place. I think we have seen extensive confirmation of what that said about his mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: bobad
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 04:09 PM

States Without the Death Penalty Have Better Record on Homicide Rates
A new survey by the New York Times found that states without the death penalty have lower homicide rates than states with the death penalty. The Times reports that ten of the twelve states without the death penalty have homicide rates below the national average, whereas half of the states with the death penalty have homicide rates above. During the last 20 years, the homicide rate in states with the death penalty has been 48% - 101% higher than in states without the death penalty. "I think Michigan made a wise decision 150 years ago," said the state's governor, John Engler, a Republican, referring to the state's abolition of the death penalty in 1846. "We're pretty proud of the fact that we don't have the death penalty." (New York Times, 9/22/00)

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 04:13 PM

Is there a chance that a convict on death row with a bad heart will get a government supported transplant?

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 04:20 PM

No, just that the US Constitution doesn't prohibit the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: hilda fish
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 04:34 PM

Scarey isn't it that many people in the USA who have been on death row used DNA evidence and were found innocent of the crime they were charged with. Scarey too the percentage of Afro-American, coloured, Hispanic, Middle Eastern or Asian people who are on death row in USA. Scarey in Australia that over 20% of the prison population is Indigenous, while Islander, Middle Eastern or Asian occupy another 20% of the prison population. Scarey that in UK there have been films made of people who were arrested for horrendous crimes and later found not only innocent, but set up by the police who charged them, for these crimes. Scarey that damned blind justice of it all. Scarey that all over the world people blindly accept that justice is equal and where people are found guilty and sentenced to death THEN IT MUST BE RIGHT BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO ADMINISTER JUSTICE ARE GOOD AND TRUE AND KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING and yet Saddam Hussein is condemned for doing the same thing. Scarey that a population is so blind all over the world that they accept State murder as punishment for murder. Scarey where stated primary philosophies and religions espouse 'thou shalt not kill' and 'peace' and 'non-violence' support capital punishment. Scarey that good-thinking people can't go that extra mile to work out some other ways of living with people who have broken basic survival tenets of our society. Whatever happens in this world I am weeping for those who have died the barbaric death administered by the state. I am weeping for their mothers, their sisters, their brothers, uncles, fathers, and friends who are also horrifically punished. Scarey that many think they deserve to suffer also for the rest of their lives.   Life matters above all else - it is all we have and if we give that away - even though the circumstances around what a person did are EXTREMELY unacceptable and difficult to deal with - life matters above all else in my opinion. Scarey that people can discuss such barbarity as capital punishment so cruelly and dispassionately - and so awfully righteously.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 04:55 PM

If you read my post again, Rapaire, you'll see that I never suggested that the Constitution addresses the death penalty.

What I said was that executing an innocent person for a crime committed by someone else is unconstitutional. And this is so because doing so violates the innocent person's constitutional rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 05:36 PM

...being executed for a crime committed by someone else is a travesty of justice, as well as unconstitutional...

Them's your words, Carol.

I don't find anything at all in the Constitution that says, in effect, "Thou shalt no punish the innocent." There are supposed to be safeguards, yes -- and God help us if they are ignored or fail! But an execution, per se, is not unconstitutional.

Or am I misunderstanding?

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 07:42 PM

No, just that the US Constitution doesn't prohibit the death penalty.

Until some day a bunch of Supreme Court Judges decides it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 08:01 PM

I don't find anything at all in the Constitution that says, in effect, "Thou shalt no punish the innocent." There are supposed to be safeguards, yes -- and God help us if they are ignored or fail! But an execution, per se, is not unconstitutional.

Ok. So you are suggesting that it is constitutional to execute an innocent person for a crime committed by someone else. Well, let's have a look and see what the constitution has to say about that...

nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

If a person has been convicted of a crime he or she has not committed, can that person really be said to have received due process of law? Personally, I don't think so, but maybe that alone isn't enough for some people.

However, let's see what else the Constitution has to say...

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

The Constitution does not specifically grant the government the right to use capital punishment. But it does specifically grant citizens certain rights against being unjustly deprived of life and liberty, as well as having cruel and unusual punishment inflicted on them. It is possible to interpret being executed for a crime committed by someone else as being 'cruel and unusual punishment'. So the individual's rights in this case trump any claim the government might try to make about having a 'right' to use capital punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 08:06 PM

Killing people definitely qualifies as cruel and unusual, especially people who are not guilty of any crime. The Bush Administration is, nevertheless, rather fond of doing so, and will probably seek an amendment to the Constitution to make it legal when there is grounds for suspicion in the opinion of an elected official. Even a dogcatcher will do, if he's in the right power chain.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 11:04 PM

You said something above, Amos, that I have sometimes mused on. You said, "Killing people definitely qualifies as cruel and unusual, especially people who are not guilty of any crime."

What if they were guilty of a crime, just not that particular crime?

People have frequently been found guilty of a capital crime when they were innocent of the act. However, quite frequently, the people WERE in the vicinity of the heinous crime, and sometimes they were at that moment committing petty crime. Some of these people have had long police records for crimes ranging from burglary to car theft to drug dealing to domestic violence and back again.

On the one hand, none of the crimes they committed called for the death penalty- so if they are given a death sentence they clearly are being over-punished.
On the other hand, via their previous lifestyle they carry a share of culpability.

I hope to see the day when the state does NOT engage in or pursue capital punishment for anyone. Incarceration, even isolation, yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Barbarity in USA and Singapore
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 08:05 AM

I believe I am also in concert with Rapaire and Susu's Hubby - If you read my post guys you will see I say that vengance (read punishment) is the only justification for the death sentence. I am in full agreement with that and always have been even though I am not in favour of the death penalty itself. Yes, if someone close to me was muredered and there was no doubt at all who did it I may even want to perform the punishment myself - I don't know. I hope I am never in that position. I would also defend my person, family and home to the extent of homocide should the need arise . These things are all in the heat of the moment or passionate decisions though. As I said early - no answers from me. Only more questions;-)

I hope I can trust the UK legal system. I hope I can trust the US one when I visit there but there are, unfortunately, numerous accounts of when they have failed - Im both punishing innocent people and freeing the guilty. How on earth can we rely on these people to meter out the punishments when we know they are wrong? How can we rely on these systems to ensure that justice is not miscarried? Quite simply - we can't! Any answers out there?

As for other countries... Well. Sorry. I don't know then too well, What I do know is that there are countries throughout the world that are noted for there severe stance on crime - particularly drug dealing. There are also countries in the world that are noted for corrupt governments and poor legal systems. I am NOT saying that Singapore is one of these but when you get the sitution where a tough stance meets a corrupt official all hell breaks loose.

"Ahhh. Mr Gnome. Welcome to our country. I would now like your Fuji camera in payment for my welcoming you. What! You do not want to give it to me? What is this little packet of white powder I suddenly notice in the camera case..."

Cheers

DtG