BS: Input wanted re herb workshops

Subject: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: MBSLynne
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 02:46 AM

I know lots of you are very good at giving helpful comment and advice when asked, so here it is:
As some of you know, I have a small business giving talks on herbs and selling them and the couple of booklets I have written on the subject. I'm trying to expand the business and intend, hopefully this summer, to start running half day, day and weekend workshops on herbs. They will cover things like plant identification, making oils and creams etc. Now the question is, if you were to book a place on a workshop like this, what would you be looking for? What would you want out of it? How much would you expect to pay, or consider a reasonable price?

Looking forward to your5 replies

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: Alba
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 08:38 AM

You only want 5 replies Lynne?..:>)
Blessings
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: Janie
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 08:59 AM

Lynne,

We have been doing workshops, herb walks, and classes for decades. A little more info would be helpful. Do you focus on wild or cultivated herbs? Cosmetics, medicinals, dyes, wild edibles or some combination there of? Where do you plan to have them, in your kitchen, at a fellowship hall, state park or a classroom at a local community college? Regarding price--in what area of the country are you and is it a major population center? Do you already have a local reputation as an herbalist--i.e. do you have name recognition going for you already? If doing herbal preparations, are the cost of materials to be included in the fee?

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: MBSLynne
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 09:28 AM

Lol Jude!

Janie, I should have mentioned that I am in England. I try to base what I do on native wild plants or plants that have been grown here in gardens for centuries, such as lavender and rosemary. All uses are useful and explained, but the basic preparations will be for medicianl purposes (at this stage...all things could change!) I will hopefully be having them in a room at a Christopher Wren-designed local village school (beautiful building with open countryside around) We are basicaqlly rural here, but as you are aware, England is pretty small so people will travel from a long way away. We are central too, so in fairly easy reach of several major cities. I do have name recognition going for me already and yes, I would expect to include the cost of materials in the fee.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 09:41 AM

If you were going to conduct workshops using medicinal herbs, their cultivation, preparation and safe use, I would want to know more about yourself. Your experience and qualifications. As soon as you get into herbs for medicinal use you are entering a whole other ball game, especially when running workshops which are classed as educational.

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: Grab
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 09:58 AM

If you're claiming they're medicinal, I'd want to see evidence of their medicinal qualities, and that had better be more than "so-and-so tradition has claimed that they help condition X". Trading standards and the police would also like to see that too, since making such claims without evidence leaves you liable to prosecution. Otherwise, every statement you make must be prefixed with "so-and-so tradition claims this - we have no evidence of it working for anyone, but if you want to try then here's how to do it".

I'm 100% in favour of herbal and traditional treatments, but they'd better be evidence-based. If they aren't, you might be peddling the herbal equivalent of leeches, cupping and bleeding. At best, this might be doing nothing for people - at worst it could actively be damaging them. There are *many* herbs or herbal extracts which exacerbate certain medical conditions, or interfere with various drugs.

A lot of people are under the bizarre misconception that "natural" equals healthy. I suggest that every last one of them takes a nice healthy cupful of deadly nightshade juice. The few who survive might have a more sensible outlook on the matter. The majority who don't are no great loss to humanity.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 10:03 AM

My favourite herbals are the ones which include a lot of the history of the herb and its uses, so that's a biggie for me in any class. Also, taste-tests.:-)

I used to visit the world-famous Caprilands Herb Farm in Connecticut, owned and operated by Adelma Grenier Simmons, who spent her summers teaching at Oxford. She had wonderful walking tours, planting, preparation and use workshops, plus herbal afternoon teas. She's also written a lot of books on them.

Another thing which I enjoy is making up whatever the workshop is on, i.e. lavendar pillows, etc. (I know that seems obvious.) BTW, my neice's "dula" (a kind of midwife) had a nifty idea which my neice passed on to me: take a regular white cotton tube sock, fill it with rice and tie off at open end. Then sprinkle a few drops of lavendar oil on it, heat in microwave, and apply to any sore areas, esp. the lower back or neck. My neice sent my daughter and I each one for Christmas. My 2 yr old grandson loves it and has to have it warmed to snuggle with when he goes to bed, now. It's adorable.

I love making tinctures and would enjoy any workshop which forcussed on them, too.

Not sure about pricing cross the pond, over here I would expect to pay anywhere from $10-30 plus cost of materials, depending on how long the workshop lasted, more if it was all day.

Good luck and please let us know where we can find your booklets? (Sorry, if I've already had this info before.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: Janie
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 11:29 AM

Don't know how well our own experience may reflect what you might expect, but here it is. (I say we, because I taught with my husband for several years, but am now only peripherally involved.)

We have had more success with day-long workshops with a narrow and intensive focus than with any other. And the outdoor workshops are the most successful. I should say that we focus entirely on useful wild plants--their identification in different seasons, ecologically responsible wildcrafting, wild food plants and tincture preparation. Over the long haul, we have benefited financially more from small workshops with serious students who become repeat customers or who end up becoming apprentices. We do workshops on proper collection, handling, and preparation of tinctures, salves, etc., or we do a day in the woods and fields, but have learned not to try to do both in one workshop. We often do 2 day workshops, going to different locations each day to look at varying habitats. Occasionally, we will throw in a wild foods buffet to end the second day of the workshop. We also focus on the spiritual/psychological experience of being in and working with the natural world. (My spouse is a naturalist as well as an herbalist and wildcrafter.)

All day workshops are more effective and fulfilling to the participants than half-day. Hubby has consistently filled up classes at the local community college, but attempts to offer a "course" of 1 1/2 to 3 hour classes over several weeks independently has not worked well.

We charge $45 for half-day, $70 for full-day and $120 for 2 day workshops. If we are providing materials such as beeswax, olive oil, alcohol or mason jars, the fees are a little higher.

He also does 1 1/2 hour herb walks in town once a month. People meet him on the sidewalk after work. He charges $10.00 a head for those, and they are very successful.

This is probably more information than you want or can find useful--but I got a reputation for long, boring posts to maintain;O)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 11:31 AM

I don't know how well it would "translate" to UK usage, but in the US there is an "establishment" reference on herbal medicines that might be of use when you encounter the need to reassure those who question your suggestions about herbals:

The PDR for Herbal Medicines, ©1998 Medical Economics Company, Montvale, New Jersey, ISBN 1-56363-202-6.

It mimics the PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) for prescription drugs that's pretty universally used by establishment practitioners in the US and is put out by the same publishers; and it gives a reasonably authoritative "establishment" view of common herbal remedies, including effectiveness, known side effects, adverse reactions, and interactions between herbals.

Since it covers most herbal remedies that are commercially available in the US, it should include(?) just about anything you're likely to gather in most parts of the world.

Not something that's a "must have" to work with herbals, and at $60 (US) or so list price it's not a casual purchase; but if you encounter "resistance" it could be helpful, and should be available from Barnes/Borders/Amazon etc.

There is increasing awareness by physicians of the use of herbals, and acceptance (sometimes grudging) that people want to use them. This reference is what physicians here are looking at to answer questions about them.

There may, of course, be similar publications more appropriate to your area. The point is that you can probably find an establishment view on herbals to help in responding to those who may present questions about your recommendations - should any such doubters show up at your workshops.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 12:12 PM

I would urge you concentrate on culinary herbs for a couple of reasons. They're useful: proven and monetarily inexpensive, and people like to eat so they'll pay to join your class. Steer clear of medicinal herbs as they're usually unproven, clinically disproven and sometimes dangerous (especially in in promoting omission).

I support the idea of nature-walks, plant identification, folklore (clearly identified as such) and woodcraft.

Good luck, Lynne. I published a teacher's guide to simpling if you're interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 02:29 PM

Janie, that all sounds wonderful!!

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 10:18 PM

Some culinary herbs do have medicinal uses. Back in the middle ages, that supposedly was the main reason for eating them, other than just the tastes.

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: MBSLynne
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 04:34 AM

Grab...as I said, I've been doing talks on herbs for several years, so all those issues have already been addressed.

Janie, thank you. That is all really helpful and exactly the sort of comment I wanted.

Thanks John, sounds interesting.

BPL, I won't be concentrating on culinary herbs. Part of the reason for doing these workshops, is that I talk about the creams and tinctures that I make and lots of people want to know how to make them, so that's what I will be showing them.

I will, of course, be issuing all the appropriate warnings, but I really feel that, as long as people have been warned of possible dangers, it's time they started taking responsibility for their own actions. I know this isn't how our 'Nanny' society sees it. I am, of course, also taking out insurance!

I was thinking of charging £25 for a half day (3 hours), £50 for a full dau and possibly £100 for a weekend. This would include materials and a meal or two as appropriate, as well as tea, coffee etc.

Kat, my two books are "The Witch's Garden Herbal" and "Recipes from the Witch's Garden" and I'm working on the next two at the moment. They are spiral bound, home published, and the herbal costs £5 and the cookbook £4. I've sent some to the US...six books went this morning in fact. The postage (surface mail) for those was £7, but would obviously be less for only two books. PM me if you want to know any more

Love Lynne

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: Grab
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 08:26 AM

Re-reading, I was a bit negative there - sorry Lynne. But as a natural-born sceptic (of both conventional and herbal medicine), that kind of evidence-based approach is what I'd find very valuable. It'd also be a good selling point for you, since the popular opinion is that alternative medicine is just hippy-trippy rubbish (which sadly is not completely unjustified in many cases). Playing up the scientific approach to herbal medicine might help to get some interest from people who'd otherwise dismiss it.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: Wuzzle
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 10:37 AM

Hi Lynne

What sort of accommodation is there near you, for weekends?
When we first moved into our place, my Father in law cleared a lot of what he called weeds from the garden, I have since realised that, they were useful herbs,:-/ so plant recognition, would definitely be a good thing. Trying recipes is fun :-) but a bit scary,:-# seeing them made by someone who knows what they are doing, would be very helpful, and doing, rather than reading, helps remember, so count me in I have a lot to learn.

Gilly

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: mooman
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 11:58 AM

Modern herbal medicine is evidence- and science-based and to be a recognised medical herbalist and a licenced practicioner you need to have appropriate professional qualifications (MNIMH or EHPA in the UK) which nowadays means at least a degree level qualification in merbal medicine or phytotherapy from a recognised university (including at least 500 hours of clinical practice and detailed knowledge of a number of medical- and pharmacological- related subjects). Furthermore, herbal medicines are regulated under a European Directive (transposed into UK law and the relevant legislation of other European member states) and the quality of herbal medicines is subjected by that legislation to the European Medicines Evaluation Agency (EMEA), based in London.

Some alternative medicine is definitely suspect but modern, evidence-based herbal medicine is most definitely a serious and legitimate subject.

All of the above is not in any way meant to imply that those not in possession of a formal qualification don't necessarily have huge and useful knowledge. However, it's the way things are going in the West where an evidence- and science base is required to get into the mainstream (and possibly, in the future, obtain formal reimbusement, e.g. via the NHS). Two-thirds of the world's population still relies heavily on herbal medicines dispensed by local practicioners (and benefits from them).

Peace

moo
(practicing professional biologist for 32 years and currently halfway through a herbal medicine degree on a part-time basis out of interest and as a hopeful future practitioner)

(P.S. Approximately 30% of modern drugs are plant-derived)

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 12:14 PM

Two-thirds of the world's population still relies heavily on herbal medicines dispensed by local practicioners (and benefits from them).

Which two-thirds would that be, then?

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: mooman
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 12:20 PM

You know the answer to that TBPL... those who have to because they can't afford "conventional medicine" or who prefer traditional treatments.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 12:27 PM

And by "conventional medicine" I trust you mean medicine that actually works.

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: mooman
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 01:01 PM

No, that's not my definition. A very large number of Western-used herbal medicines have an established evidence-base and work through identified pharmacological mechanisms. I can supply the scientific references if needed.

And if you're trying engage in a meaningful discourse on this subject rather than rubbishing herbal medicine I hope you know what you're talking about. I've been working full-time as a biologist in the "conventional medicine" area for more than 15 years with specializations in the safety and efficacy of therapies. Your post of 12:12 above suggests to me you don't know a great deal about herbal medicine.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 01:20 PM

I have no itention of hijacking this thread and my apologies to Lynne for detracting from her original intent. Herbalism is interesting and rewarding in many, many ways and I am happy to see a well-thought-out program presented to those who would like to continue the tradition. And I reiterate my best wishes for its success.

As a system of medication, however, it's time is done and I believe it is a piss-poor pretender to "conventional medicine."

Your post of 12:12 above suggests to me you don't know a great deal about herbal medicine.

I hope you pay better attention to your new vocation than you did to the time signature, moo. I have a great deal of expertise on snake-oil salemen.

Peace out ...

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: MBSLynne
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 03:30 PM

No you are totally and absolutely wrong BPL but I don't intend to get into an arguement about it. I hope this thread isn't going to go the way of so many others. I'm pretty damned near to leaving Mudcat for good as it is.

Gilly, one of the things I intend to do if this idea comes off is to supply anyone who books with a list of local B&Bs and hotels. A great deal hinges on what happens on Monday when I have an appointment to see the place I hope to be running the workshops. I'll let you know, but it may be by PM if I decide to abandon this thread.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 03:46 PM

Your threats have succeeded. I will bow out.

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: Janie
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 04:07 PM

Lynne,

I would be very interested in hearing, over time, how this expansion goes--what works and what doesn't. I am also wondering about your success with your books. Hubby is about to finish his first--it has been a bigger undertaking than he anticipated and is turning out to be more costly--book designers, transcriptionist, etc. He is wondering if and when he will ever break even.

Thanks,

Janie

PS please don't leave MC!

xxoo,

J

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: MBSLynne
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 04:38 PM

Janie my books, so far, are home-produced on the computer and spiral bound. We have updated our printers and things so we're hoping to be able to illustrate with photos in the future, but at the moment they are un-illustrated. We have started thinking about having them professionally done, but that may be a way away yet. As it is, they have proved very popular. I wish your hubby every success with his. What is it called?

I'll let you know how I get on with the whole project.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: mooman
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:14 AM

Best of luck with the project Lynne!

From previous discussions on the subject in The Annexe I know you're knowledgeable in this area.

P.S. Please don't leave the Mudcat!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: mooman
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:22 AM

P.P.S. TBPL (if you are still observing)... did you not post at 12:12 PM on 24 January? My time signatures as a musician are usually pretty accurate.

P.P.P.S. Snake Oil is not a herbal medicine.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: GUEST,confused
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 08:08 AM

errrrr...

so what is the diference between re herb



and



re hab ??????

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: MBSLynne
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:47 AM

Well I've taken the scarey plunge and booked the room for two workshops to start with, in May and June. Now I just need to advertise in the right places and get people booking! Keep your fingers crossed!

Thanks for the good wishes Mooman, and everyone else who has wished me luck!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: Janie
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 06:24 AM

Best of luck! Let us know how it goes.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: MBSLynne
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:32 PM

Well I just ran my first workshop. This time last week I had six bookings, which was a little less than I'd hoped for but not bad. Two of the people hadn't yet paid the deposit and a couple of days ago the one who'd booked rang to say they couldn't come, so we were down to four. Still not bad, but could have been much better. Ran the workshop. Two lovely people (Including Wuzzle) turned up and two didn't, despite having paid the deposit. So we were three, including me. We actually had quite a fun day, and both people said they really enjoyed it, but I won't be doing it again.I've little more than covered my costs so it's not viable. Pity.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:40 PM

I decided today that I would like to go and live in Lynnes garden do you think she would notice? We had a lovely day, and not only did I learn lots, I came home with little Jars of "Stuff " and bread with green bits in. wonderful

I wish there had been more people for Lynne it was a lot of work for her for just two of us.

But as for me I just loved the day

Thanks Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: Wuzzle
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:49 PM

Sorry had lost my cookie

Gilly

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:19 PM

Lynne, do you live in an area with a broad possible market? It might be worth doing a couple more to give it a chance for word to get round...I know how hard it can be to cover expenses, but sometimes you just have to keep at it a few times in order for it to catch on. Just some thoughts...thanks for the update.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: Janie
Date: 13 May 06 - 07:16 PM

Hi Lynne,

I'd like to say that has never happened to us, but....

I think Kat is right in suggesting you not quit just yet. It really can take awhile for word to get around. Word of mouth, with people who attended hubby's workshops, then singing their praises to others, are what eventually built up his clientele.

He also learned, if it is a workshop or seminar that has some expense to it, to get clubs and organizations to sponsor the event. They provide the space at no charge. And they do most of the advertising. We use only materials that we need anyway for his herb business, so we are not out the costs of materials and supplies if the workshop doesn't happen--we just use them in our own manufacturing of herbal products.

Finally, he always has advance registration that requires a 50% deposit with a deadline at least 3 days before the workshop. The deposits are refunded ONLY if the workshop is cancelled because minimum registration was not met, and he will cancel only if not enough registrations have been received by the deadline. The deposit usually comes to $50 -$65 dollars US, which is enough money that people don't readily sacrifice it--they show up. It is also enough to cover expenses if they no show.

Lastly, we have mastered the art of making herbal preparations in the field, with some basic equipment, including a camp stove. This really saves on overhead since it isn't necessary to rent a space. If it rains, we put up a tarp.

Now--what did you cover for the workshop? Inquiring minds want to know.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: Hawker
Date: 14 May 06 - 10:00 AM

Lynne, Have you ever thought about running a workshop at a Folk festival? It may be a short introductory thing and offer the workshop you did this weekend as a folow up, for those who want to know more - of course you may be like me and hate being too tied up at festivals to enjoy the actual festival, but its just a thought, and you do have a captive audience of similar mind, just looking for something different to do............
Best Of Luck with it Lynne, I wouldn't gire up too soon!
Cheers Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: MBSLynne
Date: 14 May 06 - 02:09 PM

Thanks for the input guys!

I've just realised that I made a mistake! I wrote down the two people I thought were due yesterday in the wrong place! They're booked on the next one. (Stupid woman!!) So I have 3 coming next time.

For a number of reasons I think it would be better to hold them at home in the future if I can. The only problem is any health and safety rules and regulations I might have to comply with. I could only have three or four people at a time rather than the 10 I was hoping for, but I wouldn't have the outlay on hire of the room. I will re-think after yesterday, but I don't think I'll give up.

Janie, we had a sort of introductory discussion first, establishing how much they knew about herbs to start with and a sort of general talk about herbs. We were supposed to go for a walk in the fields around, but having walked it a couple of days before, it's been so intensively farmed for so long, there's hardly anything growing wild, so I put them in the car and took them home and we walked around my garden.

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: MBSLynne
Date: 14 May 06 - 02:11 PM

oops! Sorry.

Forgot to say we had herb teas and cake and biscuit before the garden visit, then lunch (made with herbs) when we got back. In the afternoon we did a hands-on workshop on making herbal preparations. We talked about several but actually made tinctures and hot and cold infused oils. Then we had a summing up discussion, and that was it.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 06 - 03:08 PM

sounds good to me Lynne, but certainly make up leaflets to leave on tables at festivals!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 14 May 06 - 03:12 PM

Lynne if you get some flyers to me...or email me a flyer for advertising I will put them out at the Beltane Bash on the Bank holiday in a couple of weeks...people travel for these things....

Khatt

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:42 PM

I with the ones who say, "Keep with it"--few things are immediately successful, most require reworking and adjusting to get them up and running. Sounds like you've got your "product" pretty well worked out, now all you have to do is develop your market, which is a fancy way of saying you've got to figure out how to find the people who want what you've got--

One idea--Don't know how it works in the UK, but in th US, bookstore chains like Borders like to feature workshops of one kind or another, and you could deliver a short, entertaining and informative demonstration that you'd get paid a (small) fee for, and you could filter interested parties into your full workshop--

I know that there are a lot of people out there who are interested in this sort of thing, and if your patient, you'll find them--

Subject: RE: BS: Input wanted re herb workshops
From: MBSLynne
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 07:43 AM

Well I ran the second workshop on Saturday. I had five people booked, but one had to cancel. Four was actually quite a good number. We had a really lovely day, which always helps. I think it went rather well. I was less nervous than the first time and because I'd done it before, I was better prepared and didn't ahve to do so much thinking about what to take etc. I've had two thank you cards from people who came, and they all want to be kept informed of further events. Looks as though it may work after all!

Love Lynne