Tech: Is it possible?

Subject: Tech: Is it possible?
From: GUEST,Gurney.
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 03:56 PM

Please, is it possible to format a hard-drive right back to totally blank, just as they are when you buy them? Sit a magnet on it?
Failing that, I'm going to have to buy another HD and a lot of downloading to get on the net again.

The computer I'm using at the moment isn't mine, and has no connection to mine, and cannot easily BE connected to mine. My son insists. It seems to be totally clean. Honestly.

The story so far, for those interested. P4 machine, W98SE. I started getting trouble, not as a stand-alone, just when I was trying to get on the net. Installed a spare modem, but no difference. It became impossible to get on the net, so I formatted C: twice, reinstalled everything, got a new set of error messages but still no joy.
Something amiss on the HD? OK.

I bought and installed a second-hand HD, formatted it, which wasn't too easy, as it had W2000 on it, installed yet another new modem, installed Windows and the drivers, and GOT ON THE NET! Yeeaah.

Used the Zip-disk that has my virus-killer engine and Zone-alarm on it, and my troubles started again, and got to about as bad as they can be.

The dial-up # sometimes changes to a null. Sometimes Windows insists I'm on the net, as does the telephone, but no other programs agree. (This was one of the earlier problems with the original, and nearly new, HD.) Sometimes the computer freezes completely when I try to get to my ISP and even the 'sad man's mantra' doesn't work, I have to 'reset.' Sometimes it just crashes completely, sometimes I 'just' get a blue screen.
Apart from the connection problems, Windows driver installer has stopped working, Windows itself won't over-install, just freezing in the testing stages, and I get a lot of error messages (Can't find this, can't locate that).

Both HDs have been formatted and reinstalled twice, which is not an undertaking that takes moments.

If anyone has any suggestions, I'm open to advice. Otherwise, it is down to the computer flea-market on Saturday for (yet) another HD, and a session of downloading to fill it. NOTHING that I've saved goes on it.
I thought HD-killing virii were an urban myth. Both HDs checked as good when formatting.
Where did I get these problems? Dunno, but I get Spam daily from somewhere that uses an alphabet I can't read, Russian maybe. And my Brother-in-Law in Scotland is having trouble too. I got Kakworm from him, years ago.

I try much harder than most people to understand computers. I don't deserve this. Boo Hoo. Pass the tranquillisers! What are the chords to 'Pathetique? Chris. (Gurney)

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 03:59 PM

Repartition it- that should make any previous data unavailable.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: GUEST,Gurney
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 04:06 PM

You read fast, Bruce! Suggestion taken aboard. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 04:12 PM

"Sit a magnet on it?"

Do NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 04:13 PM

You can buy a decent hard drive, new, for anywhere from about $50 and up. Maybe a new one hard drive would be the answer. Or better yet--maybe it's time for a new computer.

Do you have up-to-date firewall and antivirus software? Do you open spam or attachments? I'd get an email program from a provider who already filters it (Earthlink, AOL, all of them do it, but you can get free email like Yahoo mail that is also filtered).

There is a long list of suggestions to post--go take a look at the laptop thread that is running now, I just posted stuff there.

After all of the grief this computer has given you, perhaps it's time to buy a new one. Start with the basics (a CPU with the motherboard and a CD and floppy disk) and reuse what you can (monitor, keyboard, speakers) if affordability is the issue. And get a new operating system, whether XP or Linux, that's up to you. But with the old equipment and software, fixes get harder and harder to do.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: MMario
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 04:18 PM

not to mention - there are a lot of websites that just tend to freeze up win98 - at least if you are using IE. AND win98 is very sensative to adware etc.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:02 PM

FYI Here's the gist of an article I read the other day. Some technician's boss had been given the computer formerly used by one of the sales honchos. For some reason he couldn't access the files he had on it so the tech had to take a look. He used a Knoppix live cd to access the drive, then looked around some more to be certain nothing else was lurking. There was a ton of porn that had obviously belonged to the former user. Note. All the partitions had been formatted when the machine was turned over. It's no guarantee. The closest to a guarantee is something like the 'shred' utility.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:36 PM

Look for other methods first; but if it comes to last-resort methods:

If you have a "known brand" hard drive, and it's not completly obsolete, try going to the HD manufacturer's website and getting their setup/diagnostic utility. You'll probably find it somewhere in their support area.

While there, you may want to poke around a bit to find out and understand the difference between a normal format and a "low level format." New hard drives nearly always come with a low level format done on them, and the manufacturers recommend that you DO NOT EVER DO A LOW LEVEL FORMAT ON THEM. (then they add "!!!!!!!!!!!!!") But many of the Diagnostic/Setup programs are capable of doing it if you must.

This format should be able to wipe everything, lays new tracks and sector markers, etc., so that it should give you a totally clean disk. It's not possible(?) on some drives and on large drives that use overlay methods for getting the extra addresses it may lose considerable drive space; but if you must...

Be sure to rewrite the SYSTEM when you do the normal format, to hopefully get rid of anything in the boot sector. Even a low level format doesn't always wipe there, and rewriting a new SYS won't necessarily clear an "overrunn" boot sector worm; but there's a pretty good chance it will. I don't know of a program that guarantees a clean boot sector, although some of them may clean it up without mentioning it in the specs.

Really old Norton Utilities had general purpose stuff for doing this sort of thing, but if they're old enough to have this utility they're probably too old to work with current Hard Drives (over 10 GB perhaps). I don't know what's in current Norton SytemWorks, since I haven't really needed to look. WinXP has a built-in secure-wipe, although I don't know how good it is. You may find an ISO-Secure diskwipe utility in current or recent Norton or similar - as I said, I don't know whats there.

Note that if you're working with salvaged drives with unknown content, you should ideally put the diagnostic/setup software on a write-protected floppy or burn it to a CD and use it in a ROM that can't move crap onto the setup program source. If you're paranoid, you'll want to disconnect any other writeable drives until you've got the new one clean. Rumor is that lots of HDs get "recycled" because the original owner couldn't figure out how to get rid of the malware. (But it's just a rumor.)

Personally, I'd pop for a new drive that I know is clean; but suit your own needs of course.

(Running a magnet over the HD may corrupt the disk drive motor magnets, and may damage the read/write element, among other things.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:36 PM

reformating and re-installing Windows is seldom the best answer to some tedious glitch. It is usually some setting, mal-ware, or physical damage. There are programs designed to search your drive for crap, and setting designed to keep you from getting more.... and standard practices to set-up a PC safely.

It is impossible to make a quick list, but I suspect that all the re-installing has introduced basic errors (can't find this...hangs on that...etc.)

You may need an **expert** who knows all the 'precise' steps to a clean drive amd safe setup...good luck!

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:45 PM

Some people do a periodic reformat and reinstall of Windows to clear out all the junk and start clean, uncorrupted and unbloated. It's not all that hard to do, but you will have to set aside a good block of uninterrupted butt-flattening time in which to do it.

And if you're at all apprehensive about it, don't try it. One must be firm and cofident with our computers or they'll walk all over you and end up contolling you and huge blocks of your time. ;)

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:14 PM

Or you COULD get yourself a zippy little iMac and live happily ever after.


A

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:22 PM

Amos -

Wait a couple of months and you probably will be able to get OS-X that will run on your PC.

So I'm told.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:38 PM

I wish they'd concentrate their efforts into getting one OS to run right all the time.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 10:57 PM

Cluin -

That's a Mac OS that runs on an Intel processor. Mac has announced that an Intel Mac is in the works, and there reportedly are "cracked" (from stolen) copies of a beta version being circulated on the web.

Reviews from the trade pundits are "hopeful," and it sounds like it may be pretty good. Not too much legitimate-channel info out that I've seen. Of course the ones using the pirated copies (if they really do exist) aren't publicising what they're finding out.

I've seen at least one DIY article on what kind of "Windows" machine one should build if they want to plan on using the Mac OS on it eventually; but probably nobody really knows how accurate the requirements/specs are at this point.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:04 PM

I'd heard about that one, John.

Why is it always "The next one should work perfectly"?

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: GUEST,Gurney
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:08 PM

Thanks, guys. To answer some questions, yes, I have a daily updated virus killer and ZoneAlarm firewall, no, I don't open spam, but my local folk-forum habitually use attachments. I don't open any others. The previous HD was installed new when the machine was built two years ago, 30gig. No, I'm not scared of the thing, I've built one (my business 2.6) and replaced parts and now completed six format-and-reinstalls. Full formats. No, it isn't bloated, barely 3gig in the original HD, just operating essentials in it now, yes, I've tried Norton Systemworks, ZoneAlarm System Mechanic, Spybot, two virus killers on it, all with no improvement noticeable. There is little likelihood of lots of porn or anything else on the original HD, as it belonged to my son, who is embarrassed by such things. I simply can't get on the net with that machine, so many diagnostic actions are out. Experts I've used have just replaced parts, at inflated prices and horrendous charge-out rates. I forgot to mention that I use a spike-arrester.
I borrowed a CD set that said it was Linux, but it was an OLD edition.
I hate to throw a good HD away because some troglodyte wants me to.
I'll try Bruce's suggestion first, on this little HD, and fight on from there, as I have to format it anyway, because Windows is missing two files and won't work properly. Thanks again.   Chris

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:57 PM

Well, there is a lot that has to go right for one to get on the net with a healthy machine, you've obviously been through a lot, so here are my tuppence:

First of all, if your hard drives are new, they are probably not the problem. Hard drives can go bad, but usually they go physically bad and you can't get the system to come up let alone get on the internet. Malware may be active viruses, virii?, but also can be exceptionally irritating ad-ware and spyware, which can slow you down but don't actually try to corrupt your machine, just you. A very basic first step even before anti-virus software is to hook up your broadband connection to a router, then hook your machine to the router. I've lasted for months with no anti-virus software, conservative habits such as not opening attachments, and been very happy (or lucky). If you're going to use anti-virus software, pick one and use it, don't install multiple bits of code that are all trying to do the same thing.

If you're going to the trouble of wiping disks and reinstalling software, and you're still using Windows, abandon 98 and go to XP or preferably XP Pro. You mention you had a disk with Windows 2000 which would have been eminently preferable to 98SE.

If you are ready to toss your HD and it still makes turning noises, send it to me. I'll use it for a linux box I'm planning (my third or fourth).

Anyhow, good luck and hope you find a satisfying link to all that is good on the 'net, of which there is plenty.

Robo

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:58 PM

Gurney -

It depends a bit on which maker is involved, but the diagnostic/setup programs supplied by the manufacturers generally do a good job with drive diagnostics. It is possible, even on a brand new hard drive to have a few ratty clusters. Normal low level format at the factory just marks the bad ones and excludes them from use by the drive. Many new drives will have a table on the nameplate showing which clusters were blocked out.

SOME of the diagnostic utilities can "scrub" a drive to identify any new scabby ones that have crept in, mark them, and give you back the ones that are good. They also can do a pretty good job of identifying things like head-tracking deviations and spin rate wobble that may indicate that a drive may be "tending toward failure."

If you're missing a couple of files and know what they are you should be able to extract just the ones you need from CAB files on your installation disk(s), without the need to do a reformat and reinstall of the whole system.

It has been some years since I've used it, but with Win98 it often was possible to just do an "overlay" installation. Files that are present will be overwritten, and missing ones will be added. It was never an officially recommended practice, but lots of people did it.

One problem with internet connection that was somewhat "peculiar" to Win95 - Win98 relates to the built-in Internet Connection Sharing. Once it's turned on, it can't be easily removed, so if you've migrated a Windows installation from another machine that might have used it, your Internet Explorer may be "corrupted" - perhaps on your installation disk unless they're original issue. Removing IE by normal methods won't fix it, since ordinary removal merely reverts back to a default - and probably corrupt - IE core version.

There is - or was - a published procedure for turning it (ICS) off, but it requires manually deleting a couple of dozen files, which essentially disables Win98 until you reinstall a clean IE. If there's a possibility that you're getting your source files from a machine that may have had ICS running at any time, it could cause major internet connection problems, especially if you have a network connection (LAN) to any other computer active. It'll be hard enough to find that I won't even try to look for it unless you think it might be applicable.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: AKS
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 04:13 AM

To completely erase a hard disk, this has proven to be pretty liable, so far.

AKS

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: GUEST,Gurney.
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 04:34 AM

OK, still trying. Robomatic, I am on dial-up. I do not have W2000, just a second-hand HD that once had it on, and which I have now formatted. I DO have W98, W98SE, and WME. Haven't tried ME yet, but I thought it was a poor system and took it off. Maybe I'll try it next.
I haven't decided if I'm going to Linux yet, but it becomes more attractive with each disappointment.
Previously, I've never had a serious problem with either W98 or my virus-killer. How times change.
John, the IE that installs with my W98SE CD is Build 3, which won't update in Microsoft Windows Update. I have to update IE from a cover-disk, and then go to Microsoft to update again. Before the troubles started, Windows was completely up to date.

Since my last post, I've formatted C:, and used FDisk to re-partition the HD into two partitions, reinstalled W98SE and all the drivers, and I just (just?)get the blue-screen-of-death at the moment when the system should should go on-line.
I'm going to have to throw some money at this problem, aren't I.   Chris.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 04:46 AM

AKS, I've bookmarked this, but they don't actually state it will clean the WHOLE HD, just the data. Bears investigation, though.   Chris.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 06:27 AM

Gurney -

Unless you can confirm something specific wrong with your hard drives, there's no good reason you should be losing files, or should need to keep reformatting and reloading the OS. Even if you're getting data loss or corruption, it may not be the drive's fault.

Win98SE was a fairly decent operating system in its time, but that time really is long gone. WinME is really nothing but a sort of hyped-up Win98, and has the reputation of being the worst OS produced since Windows 1.0 - and hardly anyone even knew that 1.0 ever existed.

If you can install Win98, and it runs until you try to make a dialup connection, your most likely problem is with your modem. Win98 is a bit short on handles, and IRQ and DMA conflicts were very common if you try to let the infant Plug-N-Play in Win98 make all the assignments. It was very common, in my experience, to have to force both IRQ and DMA assignments manually with almost any equipment addition. I can recall a modem, a sound card, and a second hard drive that I added that each required multiple manual swaps in assignments to find non-fatal combinations of conflicts. With Win98 limitations, you can't actually get rid of all the conflicts if you've got much more than a single Hard Drive and one floppy.

Possibilities:

1. Your salvaged hard drive may be intended for use with an EIDE controller and you still have an older IDE card. Not likely, but it would perhaps give erratic drive operation. We'll assume that when you reformatted it you used FAT16 format(?).

2. Modems are extremely variable as to what's the correct driver, and a dash number change on the model may require a different driver than another of the same basic model. An EXACT match is often necessary, and if your blue screen comes up only when you try to dial up your ISP an incorrect driver would be a prime suspect - even if it says right on the wrapper that you've got the right one.

3. Many hardware devices from Win98 era were hardwired to use a specific IRQ and/or DMA assignment, and Win98 didn't always assign them to the correct one. If you got two devices hardwired to the same IRQ, there'd be no way to resolve the conflict. Some devices could be switched with card jumpers, and a few could be "software assigned," but in most cases there were only a couple of choices for each device.

4. If your Win98SE was up to the latest specs when support was discontinued, it should be INT13H and INT21H enabled, but your BIOS might not be. This would (or could) cause Hard Drive access problems, although it should be okay with small partitions. I don't remember what the partition size limits were, since they were sort of moving targets during the time I used Win9x much.

5. A frequent cause of blue screen with Win9x is a memory assignment conflict. One device/program writes into the space that should be reserved for something else, so the one that's obliterated just stops. Although Win98 wasn't too bad about it, occasionally a device would write outside the RAM space it was assigned. ANY memory chip failure usually just craps on everything, so nothing runs; but a "weak" section can sometimes drop just a few bits, sometimes intermittently. If it happens to be in the range assigned to your modem, that might explain why dialing is fatal.

6. Since the blue screen seems to happen when the modem turns on, it's possible that the modem is assigned to the same RAM space as something else. This certainly would cause instant death.

If my memory was better, I'm sure I could add another half dozen possibilities for Win98, most of which would NOT be caused by your hard drive.

Of the OS versions you indicated that you have, my preference would be Win98SE. None of your versions is supported now though, and most of the holes are pretty well known; so Win98SE isn't really "safe to drive" very far on the internet.

My honest advice would be that you really should get WinXP - Professional. If you really must WinXP Home is better than Win98, but is more than a little deficient compared to the Pro version. I doubt very much that your current machine is really capable of running any WinXP version satisfactorily though, so ideally you'd be looking at a moderately capable new machine with WinXP Pro preinstalled by the builder. To run WinXP at all well, you need a minimum of 512 MB RAM (1 GB much preferred) and should have at least a 60 or 80 GB hard drive. Minimum processor speeds are specified, and you shouldn't crowd the minimums, although there are few sellers handling anything that slow - that I've seen.

For the most part, should you decide to move up to XP, you should NOT attempt to salvage much in the way of old hardware, since most if it probably won't be fully compatible with XP. You also are likely to find bits and pieces of favorite software that won't work with it. Diagnostic and test programs that you may have probably won't be of much use, but won't be that much of a loss since virtually everything you'll need is built into WinXP. You just have to find it when you need it. (Admitted - not always easy.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: AKS
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 06:48 AM

Chris, just checked it at the company (located ca 700 meters from where I am sitting right now) and yes, Blancco does clean the boot area as well!

AKS

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: Grab
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 08:41 AM

In case I'm not understanding this right, the following is the case:-

You re-installed Windows (off the offical CD). It worked.

You installed your AV and Zone Alarm. It stopped working.

Now call me stupid, but I'm reminded of the old joke: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" "Well don't do it then!"

It's not unknown for AV and/or Zone Alarm to have problems. I know I took out my system quite comprehensively about 5 years ago with a version of Zone Alarm off a magazine cover disk. Similarly, AV software isn't guaranteed crash-proof. But also consider the possibility that this particular zip-disk (and hence all other zip disks you've ever created) might have a virus on it.

If you're on dial-up, your chances of needing Zone Alarm are slim, so you can live without it. If you really want it, download a new copy directly off the net. Ditto for AV.

Also consider that there might be a hardware problem. The HD is unlikely to be the cause - if your problem is exclusively getting on the net, it's more likely to be the modem. Or it could be a dodgy PCI port on the motherboard, so try swapping the modem into a different slot.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 02:57 PM

Sorry about not coming back sooner, I simply couldn't get on the Mudcat for the last 4 days. Elsewhere in the world, yes, just not the 'cat.
Thank you for your assistance and advice. I thought some might be
interested in my findings, as it might help others in a similar position. (Irritated, frustrated, etc.)

Whatever I had, it did two things. ( I'm on dial-up, by the way.)   First, it changed the phone # on the connection. I'd hate to be the subscriber on the # that it changed them to!
Secondly, it buggered up modems. Three of them, two straight out of the box. The first sign was that the little speaker stopped working, followed by the whole thing not working. It's hard to understand that a modem that you put in 5mins ago is no longer working.
I found that CreAtive CD-Roms do not like copy (burned) disks. Sometimes they just won't read them. Despite CD-Roms' reliability, I'll only use burners in future.

When the burned disk is full, such as my back-up CD of W98SE, it takes very little scuffing to make it that it won't load all the files. And they even scuff on cardboard!

It pays to have a full computer to rob from. I swapped Ram, CD-Rom, HD, and modem from mine. And Her Indoors complains because I have 3 computers?
It pays to install thing like soundcards, modems etc., one at a time, rebooting between units. As John says above.

The final solution, well, so far anyway, was:
Put in yet another HD,    full format from A:,    reset the partitions,    remove and replace
the battery to clear the CMOS,    disconnect the ZipDrive,   remove the (dead, although
new) modem,    reset the CMOS date,    reinstall Windows,    reinstall IE from a cover disk ( my WinCD IE3 is too old to update or even work),   install yet another new modem and driver,   reconnect the ZipDrive,    install drivers for the motherboard, keyboard,
printer, etc, install the viruskiller and firewall. About 3 hours loading programs.

This has worked, nearly perfectly, for the last 40 dial-ups, and although it doesn't sound much, it made for a long, frustrating time, particularly while I was finding out about CreAtive CDs and scuffed disks. Oh, and dirty lasers, too. And how to format 7 times.

I have downloaded but not yet used the Seagate formatter that John suggested above. That was to be my next move, and is now another string to my bow. The viruskiller says there is no infection. (Hah) And this Net box is staying stripped to the minimum. And
discontiguous to my main box.

Prices? Second-hand 4gig HDs are about US$8, in good order. Modems US$8.
I found new W2000 Professional OSs at US$40, and I'm open to suggestion on that, considering the times. XPPro is about US$250, here. Cheaper bundled with a computer, but that makes it total about 2.5 weeks wages, and I don't do much with this compter but go on the net.
I'd hate to pay for this work to be done by a professional, it would have been cheaper to buy a new computer. And then what would I have done with this P41.7? And what would I have learned? Anyway, I fix things for a living. It is a hard attitude to break, because I don't like throwing 2-year-old computers away.    Regards,   Chris.

Oh yes. I've been unable as yet to use the Windows Update site. Not sure why.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 03:10 PM

John, I take your point on conflicts, but this box has just the modem, everything else is in-built. I decided decided some time ago to keep my main (busiess) box totally stand-alone and unconnected, having had a worm.
Thanks anyway for your ready advice. I think many of us have had reason to appreciate you.   Chris.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 03:23 PM

Last comment first: Windows 98 is considered OBSOLETE by Microsoft, so the "update site" will not give you anything. Rumor is that there's another Microsoft site where you can download CRITICAL patches that have been released for Win98 and WinME; but I don't have a link handy.

To consider using Win2K, you'll need at least a 20GB hard drive - in one partition. It will take most of that for the installation. (Note that it has to write a lot of temp files to do the installation, so figure at least twice the installed size for the minimum free space you have to have to get it installed). At 20GB, with nothing else on the drive, you'll have a marginal machine, since Win2K won't use more than about 10% of "contiguous free space" for temp files, and it uses a lot of temp files when it's in operation. You can hack settings to let it use a higher percentage of free space, but it doesn't like it when you do.

A 30GB hard drive, FAT32 (or preferably NTSF format) is about the minimum I'd consider "useful" for Win2K. I just pulled the original 30GB drive out of SWMBO's Win2K machine and dropped in a 160GB - she's much happier now.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: GUEST,Gurney.
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 04:01 PM

I updated last about 2 months ago, lots of patches and updates, but as you say, it looks as if W98SE is no longer supported, as I get error messages when it should be looking for updates.

Ah well. Decisions, decisions.   Chris.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 04:07 PM

I have been using Win2K Pro for a number of years- it will install, with all of Office 2K, in under 2 Gig. Data files can be in a different partition.

That being said, I would recommend at least 256 MB of memory, more if you have it. As a general rule, a disk should be no more than 80-90% filled.

Win2K Pro is based on Win NT4.0, but includes the drivers that were always missing when you tried to set up a WinNT system. Very stable, BUT it is also considered obsolete by Microsoft.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 04:24 PM

Win2K can still get updates, but it is on the "planned obsolescense" schedule. It doesn't get automatic updates as easily as WinXP, but you can download them.

As mentioned, the actual installation of Win2K isn't too large, but you need operating room too. With only 2GB in the system partition, it would make sense to move the temp files to another partition; but if you have room for two partitions it probably makes better sense to have just one and avoid having to "roll your own" setup. Win2K is perfectly happy with large partitions. Data files can be put in a folder in the single partition, if you want to separate them.

If you lose a hard drive, you usually lose all the partitions on it, so it makes better sense from a safety standpoint to have a separate drive and forget about partitioning. Most people who've moved fully to Win2K or WinXP don't bother with partitioning any drive, unless they want dual OS operation.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 04:49 PM

You may find some help for Win98 updates at the Windows98 Downloads page. It directs you back to the Windows updates page, which you indicated hasn't worked for you; but there may be some help at this one. There were a couple of "fixes," like the "Year 2000 patch" that were - if memory serves me - required before you could use the regular windows update for Win98.

I believe there was a link at the Win98 downloads page where you can at least get an updated IE, which may be part of what you're missing to get into the main place. You may need at least IE5 to get in at the regular update page, and the default version for Win98 was 3.0 or 4.5 as I recall, depending on whether you had the SE version of Win98.

Some others may not have noticed that there is now a "Microsoft Updates" seup that will give you all Microsoft critical updates - OS, IE, and Office programs, etc., all in one place; but it's only available for WinXP SP-1 or better, and possibly for Win2K (?). Look on the Windows update page you've been using...

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:00 PM

Used the Zip-disk that has my virus-killer engine and Zone-alarm on it, and my troubles started again, and got to about as bad as they can be.

As noted before - DUH????

Win98 will do just fine for your local forums - ActiveX,JAVA should be disabled since the newer (government) sources can be overwhelming.

Norton is still awsome - you can recover records that have been shredded - by reading "between the lines" and using common sense.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 09:38 PM

So that disk has a problem. Download new copies onto another disk, don't use the same one again.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:10 AM

Sage, yes, I did. Or rather, my son did it for me. He uses memory sticks, just because I don't, and transferred it to my machine. He is on his third stick, and I am still using my original Zipdrive. A big difference in price, though. 125meg sticks are cheaper than Zipdisk media now.

Guest, I use eTrust virus killer, which is fully downloaded. First you download the engine, and then IT downloads the definitions. I had checked the Zipdisk before I started trying to fix my problem, and as I wasn't going to go on the web ANYWHERE without a viruskiller and firewall, I thought I was fairly safe using the disk, as it long predated my problems.
Wrong.
I did use Norton viruskiller once, but when I contracted Kakworm, Norton's specific Kakworm killer couldn't find it. I downloaded InoculateIt, which is the predecessor of eTrust, and that found it straight away. To coin a phrase, you pays your money and you takes your chances.
My main objection (besides price) to WXP is not being able to officially use it on both computers. I BUY the operating system, not hire it.    Chris

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:02 AM

Gurney -

We gave up on ZIP disks quite a while back. We had multiple disk failures, and when a disk wrinkles up it often wipes out the drive. After about the third or fourth drive replacement (all still under warranty) we just quit using them.

The Kakworm is one of those that frequently carries a payload that installs "programs." Once it's executed, Norton may find the worm and kill it, but the "program" bits that it's installed technically aren't viral. Different strains of the worm can install different non-viral malware, and make different Registry and .dll entries; so removing all the traces, for all the varieties, is pretty tough. In all probability, Norton "killed" the worm, but you might still get indications of "calls" to non-existent executables (removed with the virus) indicating something was still there. Any other cleanup program may recognize bits left by a different strain of one of these, so it may clean out the residuals for a different few varieties.

One of the reasons for needing "real time" virus protection all the time is that any virus/worm can install unpredictable payloads, and no AV product can guarantee to clean up all the messes once the worm has been turned on and has a chance to do things to your machine. Norton should have detected and eliminated kak if Norton was in place and current when the infection arrived, and/or when the the file containing the infection was first opened and the worm attempted to do something. After that, Norton or any other good AV can kill the worm; but it's a crap shoot whether Norton, or whichever other AV you get, can clean up the specific payloads that your particular worm delivered. Often it takes more than one program to clean up the mess, regardless of which one you start with, if you install any AV program on a machine with existing infections, or if you only run your AV after the worm has done nasty things to you.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: Shiplap Structure3
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:46 AM

I gave up with my old p2 machine which ran win98SE when the Zone Alarm downloads no longer worked on 98SE , And bought a new P4box. I had considered trying adawares firewall but thought I was only delaying inevitable

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:18 PM

John, my Kakworm may have been killed by Norton, but the problem that it left was that it changed fonts intermittently, sometimes several times in one page. As I only had one computer then, also used for business, you can imagine how much I liked that.
A more experienced pal pointed out that InoculateIt worked alongside Norton (Don't know if eTrust still does) and was free, so I downloaded it and it cleared the problems completely.
I do appreciate that the interval between a virus' release and the VK writers releasing a fix is variable, depending how quickly THEY receive a copy.
I started computers with an Amiga, a forgiving but easily changed machine.   Directory Opus could change nearly anything. Formatting and reinstalling would fix nearly everything. Ahh, the old days, when the sky was bluer.....

I did buy a new 2.8 with XP, but for my son who is at Polytech doing Electronics. So if I went to XP completely, I would have bought 3 copies of XP. Computers sitting not 6metres apart.
Now, if I could clone my net computer OS onto my business computer, it might be worth it.....

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it possible?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 07:10 AM

" the Zone Alarm downloads no longer worked on 98SE"

...glad to see it's not just me...