Lyr Req: The Old Carmarthen Oak

Subject: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: GUEST,Roger Green
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 02:04 PM

Im looking for the words for this old song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 05:29 PM

Nothing helpful found

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: Crane Driver
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 05:32 PM

You've misplaced a "r" in Carmarthen, which may have affected your search.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: Willa
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 05:41 PM

Exchange Carmarthern for Dungannon and you have it http://www.upthedeise.com/utd2005/waterford-songs/olddungarvanoak.htm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: Crane Driver
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 05:44 PM

I think you'll find what you want here. Read to the end to find how the "Carmarthen Oak" became the "Dungarvon Oak", then just substitute Carmarthen for Dungarvon in the text quoted.

Andrew

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: Crane Driver
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 05:44 PM

Er - snap

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 06:55 PM

Ar Log's third album contains the song Yr Hen Dderwen Ddu, said in the notes to be 'loosely based on the legend of the Carmarthen Oak'. If you're interested I could copy the lyrics from the songsheet (I think - haven't listened to the album for ages), but they are in Welsh, of course.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: GRex
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 03:58 AM

The words of the "Old Dungarvon Oak" are the same as the original song the "Old Carmarthen Oak" with one exception, that is that the shawl referred to in the chorus was a "Brecon Shawl". I believe that the original was written by Fred Hennessey who gave his permission for the use of the name the Old Dungarvon Oak. A great song, I must revive it.
             KRex

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: sian, west wales
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:15 AM

I think Frank would be rather depressed about it being referred to as 'old' ... but I guess it has been around a while.

I too have the Welsh words should you want them.

siân

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: Splott Man
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 07:32 AM

I don't think it's "Brecon" shawl. Frank H, and indeed Dave Burns of both Ar Log and the Hennessys used to refer to an old Welsh word that sounds like "Brecon" but has a different meaning.

Any input here siân?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: sian, west wales
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 10:18 AM

Well, my Hennessy album seems to have gone walk-about, and I only know the Welsh version so ... hmmm. I suppose we could always ask Frank. (Now there's a radical idea.) When's the next sesh at the BBC Club?

Where's Nigel? He knows lots of words.

siân

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 05:12 AM

Have dug out the Ar Log songsheet, and hooray!, they give an English translation. The song is indeed 'The Old Carmarthen Oak', and the word they use is 'brethyn shawl'. What does it mean?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: sian, west wales
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 07:10 AM

Ah. Brethyn means 'homespun' - as in homespun cloth. Bingo.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: GUEST,Bill the sound
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 02:37 PM

I'm glad Sian Have corrected you I have heard it sung as Brecon so many times(Duw Duw ).Frank Hennessy knew what he wanted!
Bill the sound

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: Splott Man
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 03:53 AM

Wara teg innit?

Next BBC Club night is tomorrow (Tues 14th) although don't tell anyone I said or they'll get it closed.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: GUEST, Mariner.
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 01:38 PM

For you Splott Man , from another Hennessey classic .
"I'm Cardiff born and Cardiff bred,
When I dies I'll be Cardiff dead,
They'll build a little plot in Splott,
In memory of me ."
Tell Hennessey his ol' mate from Wexford says hello .

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: GUEST,Dr Price
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:20 PM

About the controversy Carmarthen v. Dungarvan: The Carmarthen Oak was an old Welsh legend, which warned that some day the oak would be chopped down, then the town would flood. Frank had written The Old Carmarthen Oak, but The Hennesseys were living in Dungarvan at the time - do Frank substituted the title The Old Dungarvan Oak. The rest, they say, is history...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: GUEST,Dr Price
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:29 PM

An interesting addendum: Some years later, the oak was moved to make way for a traffic scheme - and Carmarthen was under water as the river Taf burst its banks. Pretty scary...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: sian, west wales
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:21 AM

And as Max Boyce would say, "I was there." Yeh. It was wet and, despite several waves of flood prevention schemes the Tywi still quite regularly overflows and floods the main link with the dual carriageway (highway).

And now we're in fear of being flooded by multinational stores. The song is correct both factually and allegorically!

siân

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: MARINER
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:02 AM

Not quiet accurate Dr.Price, but almost . Look at the previous thread re The Dungarvan Oak (mentioned above.)and you will get the scéal on it. The Hennessey's were well back home in CAAArdiff when the Dungarvan Oak first saw the light.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: MARINER
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:16 AM

Mind you, I am open to correction on that. The old memory can be a bit dodgy these days. What say, Splott Man ? Perhaps you have spoken to Frank since the last posting?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: GUEST,Dr Price
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:41 PM

Diolch yn fawr, Sian, for gently correcting me. Carmarthen is on the Tywi, not the Taf - it must have been Cardiff's influence! I'll email Frank, eminent songwriter, and ask him - he introduces BBC Wales' Celtic Heartbeat, so he MUST be right!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: sian, west wales
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:52 PM

Actually, I was just mentally meandering; never noticed that you said 'Taf' ... which is to your east and my west, although you live east of me. (Two different river Tafs; never understood that one!)

Remember the group, Perlau Taf, back in the 70s? Apparently there actually were pearl molluscs in the west Wales Taf and farmed up to the 1930s.

Tonight's trivia.

siân

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: GUEST,Frank Hennessy
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 04:44 AM

Hi Folks,
Thought I'd better get involved as I've had so many calls about this.

The original version was written in,I think,1970.
The Hennessys had returned from a year in Ireland and had become quite heavily involved in the Welsh language folk scene back home.
The Welsh writer and TV Director Rhydderch Jones took us on a "cultural" tour of Wales, which involved a visit to the Priory Oak.
At this time the old stump still stood in it's original spot in the middle of the road going into Carmarthen.
Rhydderch told me the story about Merlin planting the acorn and casting a spell over it.
The prophecy went " If the old oak tree shall 'ere come down - then will drown Carmarthen Town".
My chorus was half written for me and the rest of the song came fairly quickly.
Rhydderch wrote a Welsh version which was an immediate success and it was not long before the song became accepted in Wales as a bilingual standard.

I'd had a big hit in Ireland the previous year with another song, called "The Gypsy", and the Irish wanted a follow up.
Almost in jest I suggested that Dungarvan, which is where my paternal family came from, sounded very much like Carmarthen.
Two months later I had my second Irish number one and the first Dual-nationality contemporary folk song was born.
In the early days I had trouble convincing people that the song was contemporary and not traditional, but over the years this little ditty, in all its forms has become central to my musical life, and I'm glad to say, is much loved by both the people of Wales and Ireland.
And yes, you are right! Brethin is a rough, home-spun Welsh cloth, whereas Brecon is a rather refined Welsh market/garrison town.

Thanks to everyone for their interest, and thanks for listening to Celtic Heartbeat on BBC Radio Wales each Saturday night at ten.
www.bbc.co.uk/radiowales

Good luck to you all,
Hwyl fawr i chi gyd,

Frank.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 06:56 AM

Very interesting. Thanks Frank.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: sian, west wales
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 07:29 AM

Well if anything deserves a song written about it, it's the Hennessys touring Wales with Rhydderch as tour guide. what a song that would make!

You would have been in Carmarthen in the Bad Old Days when this town of circa 15,000 souls had 80+ pubs, and all of those within a certain distance of the cattle market were Open All Day. (In the days before all-day opening)

I have no doubt that the Muse wasn't the only thing to flow freely that day, particularly in the company of Rhydderch.

Today's trivia: Rhydderch and the other great Welsh writer-producer, Gwenlyn Parry, were friendly with Telly Savalas. They'd met up at the Cannes television market once and TS was hugely impressed that, in Wales, authors and poets (as were Rhydderch and Gwenlyn) were given respected positions as producers and commissioners in Welsh media. He was used to a Media run by accountants.

As now happens in Wales.

Ah - the Bad Old Days, Rhydderch a Gwenlyn. Heddwch i'w llwch.

siân

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 09:01 AM

all of those within a certain distance of the cattle market were Open All Day.

But only on Market days, Siân. (Which I think were Tuesdays, Fridays, Saturdays and alternate Thursdays - or something like that!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: sian, west wales
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 10:07 AM

Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday and sometimes Friday. Amazing what you can find to sell in the bull ring (which used to be immediately behind my house) if it meant the pubs could open.

And I'll bet that the Jones-Hennessy Historical Tour happened to arrive Carmarthen on a ... Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday or possibly Friday.

Seems to me the chippy closest to the Mart was open at some ungodly hour too. I suppose if you'd been up since 5 a.m. a fish lunch made sense by 9 a.m. And a pint.

siân

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 11:10 AM

Thanks for the comments, Frank.
I hope that someone from Sain might also see this thread and find a way to make individual songs available for purchase, such as some of Frank's. I have been trying to learn Welsh songs, but with the horrible exchange rate, it is very expensive to purchase a cd from Wales - it would be great to be able to download individual songs.
Chris in Wheaton
p.s. S4C now has a website that is posting Welsh tv shows and has some Welsh musicians for viewing - such as Bryn Fon and Meinir Gwilym - no folk yet, but a great advance.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:36 PM

Chris:

It's been mentioned before, but I'll put it in again.
Frank Hennessy's "Celtic Heartbeat" usually includes a couple of Welsh songs in its 3 hour run on a Saturday night. It remains available for 7 days on the 'listen again' option, and a full playlist for the programme is also available at the same site:
Celtic Heartbeat with Frank Hennessy

CHEERS

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: sian, west wales
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 04:52 PM

Chris, hold your breath.

That's all I can say at this point in time ...

siân

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: MARINER
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 05:09 PM

Thanks Frank , now we have it from the horse's mouth, in a manner of speaking . Basically it's as I said in the first thread. Thank the Lord my memory is not as shot as I thought it was.Sláinte from Wexford and thee old Goal Bar.
    Mariner (Jacko)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: Fidjit
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 04:05 PM

quite a lot here for you Roger. I've printed out the words and I'll e-mail them to you

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Camarthern Oak
From: GUEST,Roger Green
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 02:24 PM

Many thanks all of you, Frank gave me the words in the 70s when he came to my folk club in Pembroke so it must have been soon after he wrote it. i sang this for many years. now i would like to sing it again here in Norway. Sorry lost all my songs off the back of me moter bike.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Carmarthen Oak
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:32 AM

Just a thought, inspired by another thread. I had always accepted the idea that Carmarthen (Caerfyrddin) had a direct connection with the Welsh version of Merlin's name.
It now seems at This Source that I was wrong.

Just a pointer!
CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Carmarthen Oak
From: sian, west wales
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:52 AM

The town council here in Carmarthen/Caerfyrddin (where I live) never let a bit of fact stand in the way of a tourism opportunity, and every year (June 10 this year) there's a 1 day Merlin's Festival complete with a white bearded guy wearing a blue starred pointy hat and gown. Sheesh.

This despite the fact that anyone with a passing interest in history knows that the town name is a strange car-crash of influences. Mur (wall) + Dun (fort) = myrddin, with, at some point after that etymology gets forgotten, the Welsh Caer (fort) being slapped on the front of it all.

"Dun" of course, being the same as "din" and "deen" that you'd find in eDINburgh (Caeredin) and AberDEEN. And many others, I would think.

I imagine that, if there is a link at all, Myrddin was named after the town; it's still a custom in Welsh for people to be named after (saddled with?) the areas from which they came.

Hi Nigel! Where you been, boy?

sian



sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Carmarthen Oak
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:00 AM

I know us artists aren't supposed to ask questions like this (and at the risk of reaching new heights of detestation from Ard and his pals) but does Daniel O'Donnel pay his songwriting royalties to the bloke who wrote The Old Camarthen Oak or The Old Dungarvan Oak?

Someone must have earned a fair old whack, cos DO'D has this number on loads of compilations, several DVDs etc.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Old Carmarthen Oak
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:02 AM

Weelittledrummer:

If you re-read the thread you'll find that the two writers are one and the same: Frank Hennessy. So I doubt he'll complain which is due the royalties

CHEERS
Nigel