 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts
|
|
|
Subject: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 09 Mar 06 - 08:47 AM Let me tell first that the Sinn Féin/IRA in the thread title is due to the length allowed and not my ignorance of the differences between the two organisations. The first really prominent IRA man to be outed as a British agent was Freddie Scappaticci the deputy head of the IRA's internal security unit, the so called nutting squad that interrogated, tortured and executed suspected touts. There are few doubts now that the head of the internal security unit, the late John Joe Magee, too was a British spy. If that is true it means that British agents have executed other British agents (or executed innocent IRA men; innocent in the sense of not having worked for the British) in their double job as a mean to save their cover. A recent article in Atlantic Monthly gives an interesting insight into this strategy. I put it to Martin Ingram, the former spy handler, that in the case of Scappaticci, the British strategy had gone amok. “No, I don’t think so,” he said. “I think it went very much to schedule.” “So you think—” “I don’t think, I know. He was acting to orders.” So the British government knew of Scappaticci’s killings? “Oh, yeah,” he said. “The one preconception the IRA had is that if you are dirty—that is, if you have killed—then you cannot be an agent.” Scappaticci exploited that misapprehension. “His best protection,” Ingram continued, “was to keep killing.” If that’s true, the British spy services beat the IRA by appealing to a belief that the United Kingdom wouldn’t sacrifice its own subjects—especially its own agents. Late last year Denis Donaldson a man with seemingly impeccable Republican background and being portrayed on a famous photograph with hunger striker Bobby Sands has been outed as a British spy. It seems that this man had been able to scrap the North American IRA support within a few weeks. Complaints about him were disregarded by the leadership. This man was one of those responsible for the move from the armalite to the ballot box. I have been asking myself in the last weeks how much the British intelligence has influenced the peace process. Such questions have also been asked in some Republican circles in the last months. A look into the dissident republican website The Blanket (in particular former IRA man Anthony McIntyre; read an article by him) or into the discussions in the Slugger O'Toole website will show that. Former FRU agent Martin Ingram (I have read three different 'real' names for him, most often Grantham, so I better stick to his chosen identity) also adds to the confusion in several message boards, on his own website and on the Cryptome website. He has gone so far to more or less openly accuse the Adams/McGuinness leadership of having worked for the British since long. One of his more colourful tales goes like that: The agent 'stakeknife' can be found in different spellings in different documents. Only one of them was Scappaticci. The other still not outed is 'steak knife'. If one reads 'steak knife' one thinks of a butcher and if one thinks of a butcher in the context of the IRA one thinks immediately of...., you get the idea. Martin Ingram who now claims sympathy for the republican side could be really telling what he thinks the truth is. But that's only one possible interpretation. He also could still be paid by British intelligence and only play the disgruntled former agent with the aim to make republicans nervous by false allegations. Other allegations have been that the Loughgall ambush in which the East Tyrone IRA has been decimated has been made with the knowledge of part of the IRA leadership to take out some of the fiercest opposition to the peace strategy. Sinn Féin's first TD even has been pointed to as having informed the Britsh in that case. An other recent rumour is that the devastating Omagh bomb has been laid with the knowledge and cooperation of British intelligence to stifle budding defection from the Provisionals to dissident groups. Well, reading all that leaves me a bit aghast. Even assuming that much of these rumours are just that namely unfounded rumours and that only a small part is true the British intelligence has a lot to answer. Their collusion with some loyalist murderers I have always considered for proven beyond reasonable doubt. But the number of IRA (and other republican groups) murders of which they had prior knowledge and which have been committed by IRA men also paid by the British has surprised me a bit. One spy killing a spy mate working for the same side to keep his own cover intact seemed more like a fiction thriller to me than reality. But now even the picture of Martin McGuinness luring Frank Hegarty into his death by the nutting squad to save his own cover as the British agent seems remotely possible. If it's true the British top tout has stood and watched and given the commands while a British first class tout (Scappaticci) has executed a small fish British tout (Hegarty). I hope I'll live to read the true story one day. If the long time head of the IRA Northern command and chief of staff has actually been on the British payroll they have outdone themselves. On a purely professional level, one would be tempted to congratulate them but whether a democracy should have unit going that far in a dirty war is another question. I'd like to hear what others who have followed the developments think, in particular those who have better knowledge than I who only reads websites and has a hard time telling which information is sound and which isn't. - How do rank and file IRA men feel when the big touts live (in Italy or even in Ireland) whereas they would have been nutted by the IRA for less. - Is it conceivable that the Adams/McGuinness leadership has since long colluded with the British to steer the IRA gently into peace? - Is Martin Ingram believable? - What do republicans in NI think about all this? - And of course, who's next to be outed? Wolfgang P.S. Let me finish with a very cynical Anthony McIntyre quote: At times I feel like I joined a regiment of the British Army when I thought I was joining the IRA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Paul Burke Date: 09 Mar 06 - 09:51 AM Did you know that Ian Paisley is secretly a Cardinal? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 09 Mar 06 - 11:11 AM Groannnn.................... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Big Al Whittle Date: 09 Mar 06 - 12:22 PM don't mention the war....... Wolfgang. I did once but I think I got away with it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Teribus Date: 09 Mar 06 - 08:48 PM Wolfgang, To take a look at what a nation is capable of in terms of counter espionage and destabilisation take a look at the career of Walsingham. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST,Paul Burke lost his wotsit Date: 10 Mar 06 - 03:02 AM Do you mean Walsingham Matilda? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Mar 06 - 05:22 AM Teribus - you interest me. Elizabeth's spymaster - what did he do? I can't get past the doublet and hose and general gadzookery. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Teribus Date: 10 Mar 06 - 12:01 PM Walsigham created in his time probably the most efficient intelligenge networks the world has ever seen. James VI of Scotland used to complain bitterly that if anything happened in Scotland, Elizabeth would know about it at least one week before he did. Towards the end of her reign through Walsinghams efforts practically all the major riding families on the Scottish side of the border were in the pay and service of the English. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Divis Sweeney Date: 10 Mar 06 - 01:48 PM Great to hear you again on an Irish Thread Wolfgang. The last time we met there you were totting up the total the PIRA killed in thirty years, which actually fell short of the number your natural born homeland killed in two raids in the North of Ireland in two visits ! Anyway yes there has always been informers within the ranks of the IRA and the Shinners, just as there were some great informers within the British army. That´s war, that´s conflict. As to your question regarding feelings on the street Wolfgang, yes we regret it, and yes some big names hit the headlines within the last 16 months, regrettable and hard to forgive. I will be the first to admit that it has hit the shinners on the doorstep. There is not the same impact there was regarding such news twenty years ago. The shinners appear to most of us as a reborn party, sorry other than that I know little about them. Hope they get the political process into gear when the D.U.P./ Third Force get off the toilet or crap. Main thing is the war is over and peace is the order of the day, Oh sorry some catters don´t like to hear that ! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST,The Boston boy Date: 11 Mar 06 - 05:26 AM Again the usual anti Irish rabble gather on the cat ! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Mar 06 - 11:31 AM What would be the motivation for the likes of McGuinness and co. to betray their loyal footsoldiers? Like the pigs in animal farm to enjoy the trappings of power? For a minesterial car, flunkeys, a desk the size of a hurley pitch, a salary undreamt of by those who bled on the street for them, and a gold plated pension? No. Even I could not be that cynical. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: ard mhacha Date: 11 Mar 06 - 01:21 PM RIP John Profumo, along with Burgess, Mclain, Blount and Philby you all proved to be super touts, Joe Stalin admired your great contribution to the Soviet cause, and there`s more. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Divis Sweeney Date: 11 Mar 06 - 02:05 PM Come on ard, these names are to be forgotten, it´s only Irish battering on the menu yet again. Don´t forget the Contribution of three ranked British army officers between 1974 and 77, including the famous SAS one ! Remember one of them gave 600 files on a computer roll, sadly no one knew how to view it ! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Mar 06 - 04:31 PM Walsingham was an interesting name to read about. I had never heard of him before. WLD, thanks to Mudcat's Susanne(skw) (whose English is much better than mine) I now know not respond seriously to 'don't mention the war' as I did last time I read that line. Mudcat has done a lot to improve my English. Divis, last time I was providing information which isn't proved wrong by any historical comparison, this time I was asking for information. The allegations against the Adams/McGuinness leadership seem very sensational in my eyes and I am by nature skeptical of sensational claims. I don't know whether this 'Ingram' person is trustworthy. However, the general reaction here to this allegation seems to me to be a reaction of profound disbelief. The one fact that seems to be sure to me is that the British have allowed some of their spies to kill other spies for the sake of cover. I consider it (to put it mildly) interesting they went that far. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Mar 06 - 06:23 PM Wolgang, that's what spies do. They tell lies which lead to people getting killed. something they share with politicians. the guns fire the bombs go bang people get hurt. both sides do whatever they feel necessary and expeditious. its called war, the sooner it stops and the longer it stops, the better for everybody. the more chance we have of getting something sensible sorted out which satisfies all parties. which part surprises you? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST,Matt Lavery Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:23 PM Dennis Donaldson the ex,Sinn Fein member and British informer has just been shot dead. Now this has happened two days before Sinn Fein meets both governments on Thursday. Do you notice, two days before any Sinn Fein government meeting something happens ? Britisg MI5 has been busy again ! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:49 PM That's one idea, the other would be disgruntled Republicans. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:56 PM But I'll keep a watch behind me for if any man should find me The only place I'll ever go is hell from the song 'Supergrass' Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: akenaton Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:02 PM Republicans could have shot Donaldson long ago ...his whereabouts was well known. More likely the loyalists trying to discredit SF..Ake |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST,Matt Lavery Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:14 PM Doubt it's loyalists, Many in Ireland saying it's been done to scupper Thursdays talks. The guy refused to give details of his British handlers and how they worked him. If he had given details, it could have caused a lot of red faces, I feel he was always going to be taken out by British security, but the timing had to be right to discredit SF. The government said tonight it will not effect Thursdays meeting and Gerry Adams came on air to denouce the murder, government officals accepted his statement. Look back two years ago to the Loyalist informer Stobbie, he said before his death that he feared he knew to much about his handlers. 45 minutes after leaving a police station he was shot dead. MI5 has to be. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM So that's all the possibilities except UFOs: Loyalist, Brits, Reps. A few minutes ago the Sinn Fé website was still silent about it, so I don't know what I have to think. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:45 PM Matt, you have never been here yet except to refresh an old thread and to post a particular spin to it. Does that mean there is a growing disappointment with Mudcat's Republican spin doctors of the last couple of months so a new one is sent? It would be a pity for I really became fond of some of them meanwhile. Take Divis, for instance, he has made some not very nice remarks about me but I must admit I've worked hard to merit these remarks. By now I think he's a genuinely decent fellow I could have a beer with without any danger of a row. Wolfgang (who admits that the spin doctor remark was one more feebly attempt to elicit a well merited nasty remark) PS: not much is serious in this post, but 'genuinely nice fellow' is actually serious |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:32 PM when a senior Irish republican admits spying for the British, things usually end tragically Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Divis Sweeney Date: 04 Apr 06 - 05:49 PM Firstly I would like to say the death of any human being is regrettable. I was saddened to hear of the death of Dennie Donaldson. As to who was responsible, all anyone can do is speculate. A statement was issued tonight by the Republican movement stating they had no part in the murder. I don't think the time is right for the blame game. Secondly, Wolfgang thank you so much for the kind remarks. I hold you in a similar esteem. I hold admiration of many of your threads, May not always agree ! but respect is given. Seamus |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Apr 06 - 06:00 PM "Denis", not "Dennis" - in case anyone is Googling for the latest on this. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: ard mhacha Date: 05 Apr 06 - 04:34 AM What an oppurtune time to kill Donaldson and scupper the coming talks between Ahern, Blair and Sinn Fein, it has always been so. Back in the early 1970s, two days before the Dail were to have talks on the banning of the IRA bombs in the Republic were set off by British agents, nothing changes. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Apr 06 - 08:08 AM I just read some comments on discussion sites. I want to share two more theories and an inside joke. None of this should be to be taken serious I think. Theory 1: local thugs out for a rough up they couldn't stop Theory 2: Murder was ordered by the really big tout in the IRA to cover his ass "Theory" 3: It was the DAAD, the "direct action against Donaldson" A comment from last year when he was outed: "He may be safe at the moment but all it takes is one rogue member of the IRA with a grudge and a gun and Mr Donaldson may well be regretting his past. But the climate is different now. Rather tellingly, after he outed himself as an informer he was told to go and see a solicitor. He will still spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder." (alleged source: unnnamed security) (what comes now sounds like a belated april fool joke in very bad taste but it isn't): Mr. Donaldson was to be awarded the "survivor of the year award" yesterday. That part of the award ceremony was cancelled. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Big Al Whittle Date: 05 Apr 06 - 09:40 AM A Max Bygraves fan.......You Need Hands etc. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 31 May 06 - 04:09 PM Senior SF member is 'British spy' A senior member of the Provisional IRA and Sinn Féin is a long-serving British spy, according to a document which former British intelligence officer Martin Ingram is circulating. Well, Ingram has alluded more or less openly (see my first post) since about 4 months in several websites that he believes Martin McGuinness to have worked for the other side (as well), so it is no wonder that he has convinced now one newspaper to print the allegations. The evidence the newspaper has written about seems very thin to me (reprint of Sunday world article). But this is not the last time we have heard about this. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: ard mhacha Date: 31 May 06 - 04:28 PM Wolfie old boy this is raising the biggest laugh of the past 30 years, one thing that is true the Protestant paramilitaries armed and financed by the Brits sent out to kill any Catholic who had the bad luck to stray in their path. Those Protestants that colluded with the Brits will eventually be disposed off, yesterday Mark Haddock on of the UVF men in the pay of the Brits was shot and now lies in a critical condition in a Belfast Hospital. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST Date: 31 May 06 - 04:41 PM Where's Keith ? Zebadee and said "Time for Bed" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Paul Burke Date: 01 Jun 06 - 12:21 PM So Wolfgang, the British "intelligence" services were running BOTH sides of the conflict for nearly 40 years? Connolly was a British agent, I wouldn't be surprised. Wolfe Tone was secretly a Whig. Cromwell was a Royalist, Queen Elizabeth I was a secret Catholic, and Calvin was a cardinal in mufti. Hereward the Wake was in the pay of the Normans, Alfred was seen right by the Vikings, Boudicca was a Roman agent too. And Augustus fed secret information to the Germans in Teutoberg Wald. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: ard mhacha Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:18 PM In todays Irish News former RUC Detective Johnston Brown who first recruited Mark Haddock as a police agent, said " I have no sympathy for Mark Haddock, but I would not like to see him dead,if he died it would only be a good day for bad policing, if he dies the worst type of corrupt police officers will have escaped justice, they wanted Haddock out of the way". Brown went on to say that, " Haddock had become too much of an embarrasment and was drawing too much attention on to his police handlers, This type of shooting, getting rid of an informer, is often described as using a rat to kill a rat. The important statment by Brown that is very telling, " Look at all the men who have been exposed as informers and have ended up dead in recent years, - Brian Nelson, Billy Stobie, Jim Craig, Dennis Donaldson - and now Haddock is fighting for his life". Remember this is what I have been telling you time after time, this is how the loyalist assassins are rewarded by their Britsh masters. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Den Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:48 PM Dead right Ard. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Divis Sweeney Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:32 PM Just watched a programme there on Ulster television about the hired police hitman Haddock. Six ex detectives have come forward and stated that he was responsible for the murder of over 20 people. One said he arrested Haddock after two local people who saw the murder name him, he wasn't masked. The ex detectives were told in the station by special branch to release him ! The UVF have killed 32 people since 1994, and not one person has been charged with any of these murders. The programme stated there was clear evidence of British collusion in twenty of these murders. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 07 Jun 06 - 06:07 AM The reaction of the Mudcatters with Republican sympathies is interesting for what it leaves out. I agree that there was a lot of collusion between security and Protestant paramilitaries leading to the exchange of information and to murder. But reading your contributions one could get the impression that not a single person of the Republican paramilitaries was payed by the British security or cooperating with them. Paul, I understand your argument to mean that one should never believe anything of that kind. Interesting. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Paul Burke Date: 07 Jun 06 - 06:19 AM No Wolfgang, I was saying I don't know whether to believe it or not. But if most of the top brass of both the Republicans and the Loyalists were in the pay of the British secret police, it would appear that the British government were the ones mainly responsible for the longevity of the troubles. Perhaps that's why there was another atrocity every time things looked like they were settling down. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST Date: 07 Jun 06 - 07:57 AM Big difference Wolfgang in a force which is legal and paid to protect the people and working with killers to kill Nationalists. What murderous collusion is there with Republicans/Nationalists ? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Big Mick Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:24 AM Always lost in these arguments with British apologists is that the root cause of this is Colonialism. Of course there were atrocities on both sides. Anyone who has been in armed conflict knows that these things occur. But when the discussion gets inbred, it always comes to the point of the supporters on both sides trying to justify the actions of the other. There is no justification for the actions of the Nationalist paramilitary, and the collusion by RUC and British Army. At the root, this is all a result of anti Catholic bigots trying to subvert and co opt the Irish culture, and subjugate the native Irish. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Den Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:31 AM 'It may be of interest to recall that when the regular army was first raised in the seventeenth century, "Suppression of the Irish" was coupled with "Defence of the Protestant Religion" as one of the two main reasons for its existence.' From Low Intensity Operations by Brigadier Frank Kitson, 1971 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Den Date: 07 Jun 06 - 06:10 PM Ooooh! quiet around here all of a sudden...think I've struck a nerve. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Big Mick Date: 07 Jun 06 - 07:13 PM That's funny, Den, I thought I got 'em ........ hahahaha |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Teribus Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:41 PM 'It may be of interest to recall that when the regular army was first raised in the seventeenth century, "Suppression of the Irish" was coupled with "Defence of the Protestant Religion" as one of the two main reasons for its existence.' OK Den, why do you think those reasons were given for the creation of, given the time period referred to, what must be the "New Model Army"? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Jun 06 - 04:04 AM Mick, What about the suppression of Native Americans that took place in your country more recently than 17th Century? And what about anti Catholic bigots trying to subvert and co opt the Mexican culture, and subjugate the native Mexicans in California, Arizona and Texas in 19th Century? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Den Date: 08 Jun 06 - 12:11 PM I know very well the history behind the statement. Maybe you can explain its validy in the context of Kitson's quote in 1971. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Jun 06 - 01:34 PM Help us out here Den. Which statement? Which Kitson.? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: ard mhacha Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:20 PM Den you are wasting your time asking this man about the Brits dirty tricks dept, if Kitson is unknown to him, leaving him in his ignorance would be the wisest option. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:38 PM Kitson is a common name. from Ard's context you mean Frank Kitson the strategist. Why not just say so? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: ard mhacha Date: 09 Jun 06 - 01:07 AM Google comes in handy. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Teribus Date: 09 Jun 06 - 08:02 PM Care to share that with us Den? |
