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BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 12 Jun 06 - 11:10 AM Gerry Adams, meanwhile, is doubtless hoping no one comes up with the theory that McGuinness is only being exposed to cover for somebody higher up. (Anthony McIntyre, tongue in cheek of course, in: We Believe Freddie McGuinness) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST Date: 12 Jun 06 - 05:15 AM Symathy fell in the last race on Saturday. Fancy it for Ascot next year. Doubt either of them would want your horse while on holiday ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST Date: 12 Jun 06 - 04:38 AM Would Divis and Keith take a long break, two of the biggest bores on the net, anyone meeting these two on holiday have my symathy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Divis Sweeney Date: 12 Jun 06 - 03:48 AM See folks he does know what he's talking about. A true authoritarian yet modest. Just recently a good friend of mine Doctor Eamon Phoenix said to me, Who is this guy Keith? Christ he knows his stuff. And proof of this can be found on his, Sorry yet another NI Thread. This thread proved so popular with members that I feel at some stage it will either be made into a book or film. Excellent work Keith. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jun 06 - 03:17 AM link to above exchange. It was only 3 weeks ago. Worth a look if you missed it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jun 06 - 02:37 AM Not if you mean me Sweeney. I know nothing of Republican internal politics. You do sometimes learn your Irish history from me though. Remember when I told you how the IRA supported Hitler and the "cleansing fire" of his armies? Your initial reply was, "Regarding this line, Irishmen flocking to England and the North in their tens of thousands to fight for Britain. Check those figures again and re write it. I have the figures, seeing you are so sure of them I will allow you to list them." Later you had to say, "Okay Keith large numbers of decent Irishmen fought for King and Country. My fathers two brothers were decorated pilots in that war, both so called Irishmen. Both not worthly of that title. I did not acknowledge them in life for it, and I have no wish to do so in death. Two embarrassments. Your right again greg, we are the real bastards in all of this. Should look into our history more." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Divis Sweeney Date: 11 Jun 06 - 07:14 PM Airto I agree it's possible. The dissidents are fewer in number than many think. More joined them fresh than from the ranks of the Provo's. A good few are guys who for one reason or another had old scores to settle with the Provo's and felt they were now in a strong position. The Special Branch and D.M.S.U. are still in place with little or nothing to do, so they know everyone of them and probably have cameras trained on their homes. Be careful entering another North of Ireland subject,you will end up getting tormented by mudcat's resident historian on Irish affairs ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST,Airto Date: 11 Jun 06 - 06:55 PM Civil unrest was seized on by securocrats and paramilitaries and turned into their own dirty cloak and dagger war that the mainstream population on both sides neither supported nor wanted. I think it mad to suppose Martin McGuinness was at any stage a paid informer. It is quite obvious, however, that information was passed to the security forces at various times concerning Continuity and Real IRA operations. Omagh was a horrific exception, but many other attempted atrocities around this time were foiled by the security forces north and south of the border. I think at least some of the information used to intercept these operations came from Provos loyal to Adams and McGuinness who were encouraged to infiltrate these organisations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Cobble Date: 10 Jun 06 - 07:52 PM Is this a case of history comes round as the wheel turns, pardon my jump back a few century's was not the inquisition murdering every other people that was'nt catholic. Wiping out races in South America and anyone who did'nt conform. Read your history books as you sow so shall you reap. Cobble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST Date: 09 Jun 06 - 08:53 PM The words of a soldier on the ground, not behind a desk. "What they are saying is that the British army is doing a wonderful job sorting out a few criminals, a few terrorists, who are sort of making life terrible for the vast majority of peaceful law abiding citizens... But that is a total travesty of the truth. In Northern Ireland there is a war situation by any sensible definition of the term." Brigadier Frank Kitson, one of Britain's most experienced counter-insurgency officers, served in Malaya, Kenya, Muscat, Oman, and Cyprus. In 1969, he was at Oxford writing, Low Intensity Operations, Subversion, Insurgency, Peace-keeping. All of his concepts were to be implemented in Ireland, including establishing coordinating committees of military, police and civil authorities; the formation of intelligence networks; psychological warfare units; the 'judicious promise of concessions' to temporarily appease the disaffected; setting up 'dirty tricks' and covert units; and using the law 'as a propaganda cover for the disposal of unwanted members of the public.' According to Dillon and Lehane [Political Murder in N. Ireland], Kitson argued that the "Army is the creation, and governed by the prevalent morality, of the State to which it is accountable... If an individual soldier cannot stomach these actions, he can refuse to support it, but Kitson says, he must 'take the consequences... The spirit of [Kitson's] book would seem to countenance under certain circumstances a campaign of assassination by the British army undertaken by plain-clothes troops. There are few, if any, courses of action that Kitson would not have his special force take if they seemed likely to achieve the ultimate aim.'" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Teribus Date: 09 Jun 06 - 08:02 PM Care to share that with us Den? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: ard mhacha Date: 09 Jun 06 - 01:07 AM Google comes in handy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:38 PM Kitson is a common name. from Ard's context you mean Frank Kitson the strategist. Why not just say so? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: ard mhacha Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:20 PM Den you are wasting your time asking this man about the Brits dirty tricks dept, if Kitson is unknown to him, leaving him in his ignorance would be the wisest option. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Jun 06 - 01:34 PM Help us out here Den. Which statement? Which Kitson.? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Den Date: 08 Jun 06 - 12:11 PM I know very well the history behind the statement. Maybe you can explain its validy in the context of Kitson's quote in 1971. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Jun 06 - 04:04 AM Mick, What about the suppression of Native Americans that took place in your country more recently than 17th Century? And what about anti Catholic bigots trying to subvert and co opt the Mexican culture, and subjugate the native Mexicans in California, Arizona and Texas in 19th Century? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Teribus Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:41 PM 'It may be of interest to recall that when the regular army was first raised in the seventeenth century, "Suppression of the Irish" was coupled with "Defence of the Protestant Religion" as one of the two main reasons for its existence.' OK Den, why do you think those reasons were given for the creation of, given the time period referred to, what must be the "New Model Army"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Big Mick Date: 07 Jun 06 - 07:13 PM That's funny, Den, I thought I got 'em ........ hahahaha |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Den Date: 07 Jun 06 - 06:10 PM Ooooh! quiet around here all of a sudden...think I've struck a nerve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Den Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:31 AM 'It may be of interest to recall that when the regular army was first raised in the seventeenth century, "Suppression of the Irish" was coupled with "Defence of the Protestant Religion" as one of the two main reasons for its existence.' From Low Intensity Operations by Brigadier Frank Kitson, 1971 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Big Mick Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:24 AM Always lost in these arguments with British apologists is that the root cause of this is Colonialism. Of course there were atrocities on both sides. Anyone who has been in armed conflict knows that these things occur. But when the discussion gets inbred, it always comes to the point of the supporters on both sides trying to justify the actions of the other. There is no justification for the actions of the Nationalist paramilitary, and the collusion by RUC and British Army. At the root, this is all a result of anti Catholic bigots trying to subvert and co opt the Irish culture, and subjugate the native Irish. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST Date: 07 Jun 06 - 07:57 AM Big difference Wolfgang in a force which is legal and paid to protect the people and working with killers to kill Nationalists. What murderous collusion is there with Republicans/Nationalists ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Paul Burke Date: 07 Jun 06 - 06:19 AM No Wolfgang, I was saying I don't know whether to believe it or not. But if most of the top brass of both the Republicans and the Loyalists were in the pay of the British secret police, it would appear that the British government were the ones mainly responsible for the longevity of the troubles. Perhaps that's why there was another atrocity every time things looked like they were settling down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 07 Jun 06 - 06:07 AM The reaction of the Mudcatters with Republican sympathies is interesting for what it leaves out. I agree that there was a lot of collusion between security and Protestant paramilitaries leading to the exchange of information and to murder. But reading your contributions one could get the impression that not a single person of the Republican paramilitaries was payed by the British security or cooperating with them. Paul, I understand your argument to mean that one should never believe anything of that kind. Interesting. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Divis Sweeney Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:32 PM Just watched a programme there on Ulster television about the hired police hitman Haddock. Six ex detectives have come forward and stated that he was responsible for the murder of over 20 people. One said he arrested Haddock after two local people who saw the murder name him, he wasn't masked. The ex detectives were told in the station by special branch to release him ! The UVF have killed 32 people since 1994, and not one person has been charged with any of these murders. The programme stated there was clear evidence of British collusion in twenty of these murders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Den Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:48 PM Dead right Ard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: ard mhacha Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:18 PM In todays Irish News former RUC Detective Johnston Brown who first recruited Mark Haddock as a police agent, said " I have no sympathy for Mark Haddock, but I would not like to see him dead,if he died it would only be a good day for bad policing, if he dies the worst type of corrupt police officers will have escaped justice, they wanted Haddock out of the way". Brown went on to say that, " Haddock had become too much of an embarrasment and was drawing too much attention on to his police handlers, This type of shooting, getting rid of an informer, is often described as using a rat to kill a rat. The important statment by Brown that is very telling, " Look at all the men who have been exposed as informers and have ended up dead in recent years, - Brian Nelson, Billy Stobie, Jim Craig, Dennis Donaldson - and now Haddock is fighting for his life". Remember this is what I have been telling you time after time, this is how the loyalist assassins are rewarded by their Britsh masters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Paul Burke Date: 01 Jun 06 - 12:21 PM So Wolfgang, the British "intelligence" services were running BOTH sides of the conflict for nearly 40 years? Connolly was a British agent, I wouldn't be surprised. Wolfe Tone was secretly a Whig. Cromwell was a Royalist, Queen Elizabeth I was a secret Catholic, and Calvin was a cardinal in mufti. Hereward the Wake was in the pay of the Normans, Alfred was seen right by the Vikings, Boudicca was a Roman agent too. And Augustus fed secret information to the Germans in Teutoberg Wald. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST Date: 31 May 06 - 04:41 PM Where's Keith ? Zebadee and said "Time for Bed" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: ard mhacha Date: 31 May 06 - 04:28 PM Wolfie old boy this is raising the biggest laugh of the past 30 years, one thing that is true the Protestant paramilitaries armed and financed by the Brits sent out to kill any Catholic who had the bad luck to stray in their path. Those Protestants that colluded with the Brits will eventually be disposed off, yesterday Mark Haddock on of the UVF men in the pay of the Brits was shot and now lies in a critical condition in a Belfast Hospital. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 31 May 06 - 04:09 PM Senior SF member is 'British spy' A senior member of the Provisional IRA and Sinn Féin is a long-serving British spy, according to a document which former British intelligence officer Martin Ingram is circulating. Well, Ingram has alluded more or less openly (see my first post) since about 4 months in several websites that he believes Martin McGuinness to have worked for the other side (as well), so it is no wonder that he has convinced now one newspaper to print the allegations. The evidence the newspaper has written about seems very thin to me (reprint of Sunday world article). But this is not the last time we have heard about this. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Big Al Whittle Date: 05 Apr 06 - 09:40 AM A Max Bygraves fan.......You Need Hands etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Apr 06 - 08:08 AM I just read some comments on discussion sites. I want to share two more theories and an inside joke. None of this should be to be taken serious I think. Theory 1: local thugs out for a rough up they couldn't stop Theory 2: Murder was ordered by the really big tout in the IRA to cover his ass "Theory" 3: It was the DAAD, the "direct action against Donaldson" A comment from last year when he was outed: "He may be safe at the moment but all it takes is one rogue member of the IRA with a grudge and a gun and Mr Donaldson may well be regretting his past. But the climate is different now. Rather tellingly, after he outed himself as an informer he was told to go and see a solicitor. He will still spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder." (alleged source: unnnamed security) (what comes now sounds like a belated april fool joke in very bad taste but it isn't): Mr. Donaldson was to be awarded the "survivor of the year award" yesterday. That part of the award ceremony was cancelled. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: ard mhacha Date: 05 Apr 06 - 04:34 AM What an oppurtune time to kill Donaldson and scupper the coming talks between Ahern, Blair and Sinn Fein, it has always been so. Back in the early 1970s, two days before the Dail were to have talks on the banning of the IRA bombs in the Republic were set off by British agents, nothing changes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Apr 06 - 06:00 PM "Denis", not "Dennis" - in case anyone is Googling for the latest on this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Divis Sweeney Date: 04 Apr 06 - 05:49 PM Firstly I would like to say the death of any human being is regrettable. I was saddened to hear of the death of Dennie Donaldson. As to who was responsible, all anyone can do is speculate. A statement was issued tonight by the Republican movement stating they had no part in the murder. I don't think the time is right for the blame game. Secondly, Wolfgang thank you so much for the kind remarks. I hold you in a similar esteem. I hold admiration of many of your threads, May not always agree ! but respect is given. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:32 PM when a senior Irish republican admits spying for the British, things usually end tragically Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:45 PM Matt, you have never been here yet except to refresh an old thread and to post a particular spin to it. Does that mean there is a growing disappointment with Mudcat's Republican spin doctors of the last couple of months so a new one is sent? It would be a pity for I really became fond of some of them meanwhile. Take Divis, for instance, he has made some not very nice remarks about me but I must admit I've worked hard to merit these remarks. By now I think he's a genuinely decent fellow I could have a beer with without any danger of a row. Wolfgang (who admits that the spin doctor remark was one more feebly attempt to elicit a well merited nasty remark) PS: not much is serious in this post, but 'genuinely nice fellow' is actually serious |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM So that's all the possibilities except UFOs: Loyalist, Brits, Reps. A few minutes ago the Sinn Fé website was still silent about it, so I don't know what I have to think. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST,Matt Lavery Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:14 PM Doubt it's loyalists, Many in Ireland saying it's been done to scupper Thursdays talks. The guy refused to give details of his British handlers and how they worked him. If he had given details, it could have caused a lot of red faces, I feel he was always going to be taken out by British security, but the timing had to be right to discredit SF. The government said tonight it will not effect Thursdays meeting and Gerry Adams came on air to denouce the murder, government officals accepted his statement. Look back two years ago to the Loyalist informer Stobbie, he said before his death that he feared he knew to much about his handlers. 45 minutes after leaving a police station he was shot dead. MI5 has to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: akenaton Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:02 PM Republicans could have shot Donaldson long ago ...his whereabouts was well known. More likely the loyalists trying to discredit SF..Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:56 PM But I'll keep a watch behind me for if any man should find me The only place I'll ever go is hell from the song 'Supergrass' Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:49 PM That's one idea, the other would be disgruntled Republicans. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: GUEST,Matt Lavery Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:23 PM Dennis Donaldson the ex,Sinn Fein member and British informer has just been shot dead. Now this has happened two days before Sinn Fein meets both governments on Thursday. Do you notice, two days before any Sinn Fein government meeting something happens ? Britisg MI5 has been busy again ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Mar 06 - 06:23 PM Wolgang, that's what spies do. They tell lies which lead to people getting killed. something they share with politicians. the guns fire the bombs go bang people get hurt. both sides do whatever they feel necessary and expeditious. its called war, the sooner it stops and the longer it stops, the better for everybody. the more chance we have of getting something sensible sorted out which satisfies all parties. which part surprises you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Mar 06 - 04:31 PM Walsingham was an interesting name to read about. I had never heard of him before. WLD, thanks to Mudcat's Susanne(skw) (whose English is much better than mine) I now know not respond seriously to 'don't mention the war' as I did last time I read that line. Mudcat has done a lot to improve my English. Divis, last time I was providing information which isn't proved wrong by any historical comparison, this time I was asking for information. The allegations against the Adams/McGuinness leadership seem very sensational in my eyes and I am by nature skeptical of sensational claims. I don't know whether this 'Ingram' person is trustworthy. However, the general reaction here to this allegation seems to me to be a reaction of profound disbelief. The one fact that seems to be sure to me is that the British have allowed some of their spies to kill other spies for the sake of cover. I consider it (to put it mildly) interesting they went that far. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Divis Sweeney Date: 11 Mar 06 - 02:05 PM Come on ard, these names are to be forgotten, it´s only Irish battering on the menu yet again. Don´t forget the Contribution of three ranked British army officers between 1974 and 77, including the famous SAS one ! Remember one of them gave 600 files on a computer roll, sadly no one knew how to view it ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: ard mhacha Date: 11 Mar 06 - 01:21 PM RIP John Profumo, along with Burgess, Mclain, Blount and Philby you all proved to be super touts, Joe Stalin admired your great contribution to the Soviet cause, and there`s more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? Sinn Fein/IRA and its touts From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Mar 06 - 11:31 AM What would be the motivation for the likes of McGuinness and co. to betray their loyal footsoldiers? Like the pigs in animal farm to enjoy the trappings of power? For a minesterial car, flunkeys, a desk the size of a hurley pitch, a salary undreamt of by those who bled on the street for them, and a gold plated pension? No. Even I could not be that cynical. |
