BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools

Subject: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:13 AM

It's good to see that decent Americans are on the alert for devil worshippers poisoning the minds of children. This link shows how they foiled a teacher who tried to seduce children into watching a sock- puppet version of the satanic opera "Faust", narrated by the notorious British actress Joan Sutherland.

I unserstand another teacher was suspended for reading out of a book that contained descriptions of nudity, murder, rape, incest, genocide, genital mutilation and the making and drinking of alcohol. But she was reinstated when she explained that it was called The Bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: gnu
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 05:45 AM

Sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 05:51 AM

In an interview published today, the Archbishop of Canterbury has stated that Creationism ought not to be taught in schools.
This is a step in the right diretion but the fact that he feels the need to say this is indicative of how many compromises have been made to those who would enforce long since discredited Dogma on impressionable young minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: MBSLynne
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 06:09 AM

Gods! If my kids went to that school, they wouldn't stay there long!

I have certain issues with the way religious education is taught in schools here (UK) but that's probably thread creep so I won't hold forth

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 06:26 AM

US style fundamentalism isn't so much "long since discredited dogma" as a modern heresy. Rather like the Taliban version of Islam in that respect. And in some others.

There's a letter in today's Guardian that sums it up:

Your reference to Archbishop Rowan Williams' critique of what you call "the Bible-based account of the origins of the world" has confused the debate over "creationism", giving the impression that the archbishop has opted for "science" against the Bible (Archbishop: stop teaching creationism, March 21).

Biblical fundamentalism - of which literalism has been a variable part - is a late 19th-century north American mutant of Christianity. The word fundamentalism was not widely known till the 1920s. Earlier Christian thinkers had a much more intelligent sense of the place of symbol and myth in the Bible.

By his statement the archbishop is reasserting the richness of orthodoxy against the ignorance and narrowness of this very modern, unintelligent and untraditional literalism.
Rev Dr Kenneth Leech
Ashton Under Lyne, Tameside

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 06:33 AM

Shouldn't imagine it will take too long for the denunciations to start.
In fact I,ll offer the Fundies this:Rowan Williams looks like Santa Claus."Santa" is an anagram of Satan.What more evidence do you need.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Bagpuss
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 06:36 AM

Here is a link to the Guardian news article which also links to more in depth coverage of his interview.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 06:40 AM

Now if we can only stop people from worshipping the flag and anybody who wraps himself in it (e.g. Bush). It won't be easy, unfortunately, since as everybody knows, Bush gets all his instruction from God.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: kendall
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 07:27 AM

God gave us intelligence. Why don't we use it?

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 07:35 AM

Bush doesn't need to--he gets all his instructions unfiltered.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 08:11 AM

A recent letter to the editor told of the writer's efforts over many years to get comparative religion taught at schools. His reason is that folks who have a good knowledge of other religions are unlikely to be prejudiced against followers of these religions.

One reply he received from a Minister of Education or senior bureaucrat was that the writer preferred children to get religious instruction from their parents. His answer was to point out that some parents are racist bigots. I don't think he got a reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 08:19 AM

Ron Davies, extremely worthless trying to turn this into a politcal thread.

Extremely worthless and predictible on your part. George Bush may not be your cup of team but you sure have zero influence on anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 08:24 AM

What is a cup of team?

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 08:26 AM

I've never really understood why flag worship isn't seen as idolatry by these guys and denounced as such. Fatted Calfs and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 08:28 AM

And there's naive little me thinking that religion in the USA (and to a much smaller extent in Britain) WAS political.

A cup of team, PF, is like a cup of tea, but with 26 muddy boots and 13 sweaty jockstraps stirred in it. Not my cup of tea, I should cocoa.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: John P
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 09:04 AM

What I find interesting is that the biggest believers in Satan in our society are Christians. I am forced to conclude that Christians are Satanists and vice versa.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 09:05 AM

Flag worship is definitely idolatry. I never really became aware of it that much until my sojourn in the USA from age 10 to 20. There was no way not to be aware of it there, because you were forced to stand up and say a pledge to the stupid thing every morning in school. (unless you just pretended to, like me, and moved your lips but said nothing at all...)

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 09:51 AM

Scary stuff. Hope the trend doesn't cross the Atlantic like so many others but I fear it has already started. An ex friend of mine, a Christian fundementalist, once lent me a couple of books by an American author. Blocked the name out of my memory since so can't warn you about it I'm afraid.

Anyhow, the first book started off quite well. Fantasy type stuff. Angels and Demons battling it out in the background while us ordinary humans leave our fate and souls in their hands.

What started the danger signals were the bits about all other religions belonging to the devil. The last straw, and why my friend became an ex friend, was a belief that children who claim they were abused are actualy suffering from demonic possesion. Why else, claims the author, would children brought up in good Christian homes accuse their parents of such things.

And these people think the Moslem fundementalists are bad? Sick.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 11:20 AM

From what I understand, Satan is one of the fallen angels. Lucifer is another, and Mephistopheles (in Faust) is another. It seems there were a whole bunch of them. In the Old Testament, they weren't considered actually evil, just sort of flawed. It seems that calling Satan the devil came later, as well as getting Lucifer and Satan mixed together. I find it very interesting. Mainly, it's one of those things I always thought I knew and now find I've been wrong about. It might be worth it to investigate.

What's hard to fathom is that Faust appears (I've only read the plot summary) to be a play about Good vs. Evil, with Good winning in the end. It would take a truly impressive level of stupidity to see that as devil worship.

According to the article, 53 people at their shcool board meeting wanted her re-instated. They sent her flowers and letters to show support and the mayor resigned over it! 6 people opposed her re-instatement.

What bothers me most about this, is that a minority of whackos can get those in authority to do their will if they're vocal enough. Of course, that's a big problem in America these days. Why is this small number of people given more priority simply because they can do righteous indignation and moral outrage really well?

If the people siding with reason and rights were just as vocal, just as committed, and, in short, just as morally militant, maybe the nuts, the haters, and the holier-than-thou control freaks would be pandered to less.

Maybe it's just that those who fight for change are always more passionate. Maybe we have to lose all the rights we have and the laws and our justice system with reason, common sense, and respect for ALL humans as ideals -- maybe THEN we'll get motivated enough to fight. Or maybe we won't care even then, as long as nobody takes OUR toys away.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 11:27 AM

". . . while the fallen face of Jesus is choking in the dust . . ."

I wonder if Phil knew just how correct he was.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: number 6
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 11:29 AM

Purple Foxx ... a cup of team is tea with some "right diretion" added as an ingredient.

What exactly is "right diretion" anyway?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 12:08 PM

I used to live in a place that is just like that Colorado town. I had to get out of there too. Those people are crazy. They accused me of being a witch (in court) because I read Roald Dahl's book, The Witches, to my son. Roald Dahl also wrote Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, and James and the Giant Peach.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 12:53 PM

"Satan" is originally just the Hebrew/Aramaic/Arabic word for "the enemy" - which is what is meant by all those slogans about America as "the great Satan", which is really a mistranslation of what the slogans are actually saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 01:01 PM

Okay. I've gotten them to stop it in School District 25. Nary a classroom will you find worshiping the devil.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 01:39 PM

A somewhat similar topic is discussed in the recent thread:

BS: Teaching Modern Art - I guess

In this one, the only nationally certified art teacher in New York State public schools, with 20 years or so of experience, had the temerity to suggest to some of his advanced students that "life drawing" would be an important skill, and that they should include samples in their portfolios for application for scholarships.

A few students, on their own and without the teacher's participation, travelled to NY City to take classes, for which the teacher was summarily suspended. The suspension was based on a question from ONE parent, who has subsequently stated that he sees nothing wrong with what the teacher (or the students) did; he just wanted to know whether it was optional for his daughter.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 02:56 PM

Jeri, you're right. I feel those of us who are secular, or even just old fashioned Protestant, need to get organised and damn quick. I think we're in the position of people like us persecuted througout history as waves of dark times swept them away. It seems humanity has to have these episodes of madness. I never thought we'd see another, but that shows what I know. There is no difference between fundamental evangelist religion and Taliban muslim extremism, same people, same madness.
here in the Uk we too have a relgious political leader who is allowing private schools to teach creationism and other lunacies. This means we're stuck with them for generations. They are the enemy!
Organise now, or sort out the books you don't want burned and try to hide them.Then sort out the people you need to hide too.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Bert
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 03:02 PM

Now if the row was about teaching opera instead of folk music then .....

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 05:04 PM

I've got them to stop teaching opera in the schools, too. And folk music. And life drawing (now they only draw corpses). And history. And mathematics. And that chemistry stuff. And ain't nobody studying theology, philosophy, cosmology, demonology or astrophysics, neither. In fact, ain't nobody studyin' nothing. Don't need that book learnin'. Was good enough for the men who settled this country and by crikey it's good enough for us now!

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 05:42 PM

The Closing of the Western Mind : The Rise of Faith and the Fall of Reason by Charles Freeman (HERE) is a fascinating book. Freeman describes how, in the time of the ancient Greeks, the first faltering steps were being taken to discovering what the cosmos was all about, and soon science and the growth of human knowledge began to expand at an exponential rate.

Then along came this strange off-shoot sect that appeared and began spreading out from the Middle East. They called themselves "Christians." Well, no problem. There were many such sects, some of which claimed that their central figure was a messiah, predicted by Judaic writings to come and lead the Jews out of bondage (at this time, bondage to the Roman Empire). But this was just one of many such sects.

Then, in 312 AD, the emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. Because there were a lot of Christians in Rome at the time, some historians suspect that Constantine's conversion was less a matter of faith and more a matter of political expedience (a phenomenon not unknown in our own times). In any case, Constantine declared, "Dogma is what I say it is!" And at this point in history, Christian dogma—or Constantine's version of it—took on the force of secular law. The Roman Empire became a theocracy.

In an attempt to give the faith some kind of philosophical credentials and raise it a bit from the realm of pure mysticism, the early bishops dipped into Greek philosophy. But they spurned Aristotle's contention that one learns about the cosmos by observing, asking questions, and using one's mind (the nucleus of the scientific method), in favor of Plato's dualistic view of the cosmos:   that there exists a realm in which all things are perfect, and what we see in this world are merely vague, distorted shadows from that other world; and that true knowledge comes from ignoring what you see (which may be deceptive or imperfect) and looking within. This translated into prayer, meditation, and hope for Divine Revelation as the basis for "true knowledge."

So, in Europe at least, science was locked in the closet and humankind sank into the era we now refer to as the Dark Ages. The human mind, with all its capability and potential, lived for the better (or worse) part of a thousand years in a foggy twilight of myth and mysticism in which life was ugly and short.

It was around the time that Aristotle's writings were rediscovered, and Thomas Aquinas tried to prove the existence of God by using Aristotelian logic, that the human mind peeked out of the closet and began to look around. Although Aquinas earned himself a sainthood by his efforts, he did fail. All of his arguments have big holes in them. But his efforts did foster a growing interest in Aristotle's methods. And the ultimate result of this? The Renaissance, with its sudden explosion of human knowledge and enrichment of culture. And out of this grew the Enlightenment, the Rights of Man, the rediscovery of democracy, the sudden advancement of science, and the modern age.

"But once again, the madmen come!"

There are powerful segments of both the Christian religion and the Muslim religion that would eliminate secular governments and democratic political systems and replace them with dogmatic theocracies. Along with this, they intend to subvert science, knowledge, and cultural diversity. They would return us to the Dark Ages.

I am far more apprehensive about religions fundamentalists, particularly the Christian fundamentalists in this country, than I am about any terrorists who may be out there. Terrorists may kill a few people. They may even kill a lot of people. But the theocratic religious fundamentalists would erase all human knowledge and advancement and condemn the human race to world-wide superstition and ignorance. Once again, life would become ugly. And short.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 06:40 PM

I couldn't put it better Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 12:02 AM

It's obvious who first mentioned a Mudcatter here by name. I named no Mudcatter--unless Bush has recently joined. But hey, "Martin" ,welcome back. Wonder if you can stay out of the gutter.

I can't tell you how it pains me that you don't like my linking of the "Devil worship" idiocy to flag worship and to Bush. OK, to make you happy, I'll just make the direct link between Bush and the parents concerned about "Devil worship"--don't need to mention the flag. I'll bet you a nickel the parents who labelled the teacher a lesbian and a "Devil worshiper" were good staunch Bush supporters. Yahoos like that are sure as hell not Kerry voters--i.e. thinking beings. I wonder who you voted for.

Whose supporters were convinced that homosexual marriage would destroy marriage? Was it Kerry's supporters? Please enlighten us.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 12:05 AM

"worshipper"

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:07 AM

Just up the road from me is funny little concrete structure (probably built in the 50s or 60s) with a big sign outside proclaiming it to be an 'Evangelical Church'. Every Saturday apparently normal people turn up to tend the gardens around the concrete structure and on Sundays the local roads are clogged with their cars as the same people turn up with their families to (presumably) praise Jesus.
Occasionally leaflets are shoved through my letter box telling me how Jesus can save me from ... something ... but they definitely have that scary, ranting fundamentalist tone about them (such leaflets go straight into the recycling bin, of course).
I confess that, although these people, whoever they are, have a right to worship whoever or whatever they like, they fill me with unease. I can't help imbuing them with that 'enemy within' aura that communists had in 1950s America - but we all know where that leads, so, I suppose, I'll just have to put up with feeling uneasy ... until they start burning heretics on the local Green, of course ...

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:13 AM

All the Christians I know are really nice, tolerant and friendly people.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 06:23 AM

Well Keith, they do say "In Hertford Hereford and Hampshire heretics hardly hassle..."

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 06:24 AM

And Harlow?

Sorry.... 'Arlow

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 07:09 AM

Keith - I don't think that the problem is yet as great as it is in the USA.

Mind you, I went to an evangelical church a few years ago with my then brother-in-law to hear a pastor rant on about the 'fact' that only those saved by his particular God would go to heaven. That meant that the Pope and the Queen were bound for perdition (his words - not mine). Those people are scary!

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 07:46 AM

That's traditional Christian belief, jacqui. If you want scary stuff from way back, get hold of some of "Saint" John Bunyan's writings- in his allegorical utopian novel, Holy War, the Doubters are crucified after Emmanuel takes control of the city of Mansoul.

Tolerance as a Christian virtue only dates from the mid 20th century. There were Latitudinarians and Arminians before that, but their attitude was widely considered an abomination by most believers.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 08:47 AM

I make no claims to be an expert on comparitive religions, but I understand that the Devil as he/she/it is normally understood in the Judeo-Christian (with apologies to everyone else) West is entirely a Christian concept. This leads to the logical conclusion that the only Devil worshipers are Christians, since they are the only ones who believe in the Devil.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 08:54 AM

I don't know of any religion anywhere that has been tolerant of other religions and dissenters within. And that includes the Anabaptists and the Buddhists. This can be anything from shunning and excommunication to burning at the stake.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 09:16 AM

You have not met many Anglicans then.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 09:21 AM

Or is it the other way round, Artbrooks?

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2.19)

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 09:40 AM

I'm not sure what you mean, Snuffy. Is it that Christians are saying that there is more than one devil? I don't think that one can quote Christian theology to prove or disprove the beliefs of some other religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 10:20 AM

"I don't think that one can quote Christian theology to prove or disprove the beliefs of some other religion."

Christians have enough trouble quoting from the Bible to prove or disprove their own beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 10:59 AM

linking of the "Devil worship" idiocy to flag worship and to Bush.

The link is obvious, but you forgot to include foetus worship, which is also a major part of the BuShite's religio-political makeup.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Bert
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 03:30 PM

Rapaire,

When I was in Bahrian I found that the Moslems were extremely tolerant of the Christians and Jews in their midst. We were welcomed into their country and into their community and they made now attempt to convert us to Islam. They were also tolerant and sometimes amused when we made mistakes in tying to live in their culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 03:48 PM

Yes, Bert. Now consider the background to the Shii'a/Sunni differences. And as for the Anglicans -- consider the background to the ECW.

I stand by my statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:35 PM

ECW?
You will have to explain.
Whatever it is the Anglicans do not "shun" anybody, far less excommunicte or burn!

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:58 PM

English Civil War.
---------------------
1547         Henry VIII dies. He has executed around 60 people for "religious" reasons, among a total of about 130 political executions. He is succeeded by his sickly teenaged son, Edward VI. Chantries suppressed.

1553         Edward VI dies. People are tired of Protestant looting of churches. Mary Tudor ("Bloody Mary"), a militant Roman Catholic, becomes queen. Popular at first, she soon marries the hated Philip II of Spain. Persecution of Protestants begins; Mary appoints new bishops and fires all married priests. During her reign, about 300 Protestans are burned, including 5 bishops, 100 priests, 60 women. An attempt by Cardinal Pole (Mary's archbishop of Canterbury) to restore monasticism fizzles when, among 1500 surviving monks, nuns, and friars, fewer than 100 are willing to return to celibacy. All this ensures Roman Catholics will remain unpopular in England.
1555         Mary burns bishops Hugh Latimer and Nicholas Ridley at the stake (Oct. 16).
1556         Mary succeeds in brainwashing Thomas Cranmer, who signs a retraction which he later repudiates. Mary burns him at the stake (March 21).

1628         The narrow-minded William Laud is made archbishop of London. He oversees the persecution of Puritans.

1645         William Laud is beheaded by the Puritans.

1685         Last execution for witchcraft in England.
1692         Salem witchcraft fiasco in New England.

1860    The authors are called "the Seven Against Christ". Dr. Pusey collects 11,000 signatures from outraged clergymen who still believe in scriptural inerrancy and eternal damnation for the wicked. Temple writes to the bishop of London, "Many years ago you urged us from the University pulpit to undertake the critical study of the Bible. You said that it was a dangerous study, but indispensable.... To tell a man to study, yet bid him, under heavy penalties, come to the same conclusions with those who have not studied, is to mock him."

Conservatives are shocked when a secular court allows the clerical contributors to retain their positions. The court finds that a priest who doubts eternal damnation is not a threat to public morality.
-------------

Simply examples, taken from Friedlander's Anglican Time Line (http://justus.anglican.org/resources/timeline/timeline.html). And I included Mary Tudor to show that Catholics and Anglicans both were had bloody hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 07:53 PM

More evil has been done in the name of religious belief than for any other cause, perhaps all other causes put together.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 08:18 PM

I don't think that most of the mass slaughter in Europe during the 20th Century - the Great War, the Russian Revolution and its aftermath, the Holocaust, World War II - can really be primarily put down to religious belief.

Moreover "in the name of religious belief" frequently has nothing to do with religious belief, except in sofar as this acts as a marker for tribalism and nationalism. As for example in Ireland, Israel/Palestine, and the former Yugoslavia.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 08:29 PM

'Moreover "in the name of religious belief" frequently has nothing to do with religious belief, except in sofar as this acts as a marker for tribalism and nationalism.'

Yep - and thus the Nazi belief system is thus reasonably considered a 'religious belief system' - indeed it was a defacto 'State Religion' - if it quacks like a duck...

All 'Religious Belief' is based on 'Faith Alone'. It doesn't have to be be just faith in 'One Supremem Being'.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 09:31 PM

I would also include Stalin's purges in that category. Atheism can be just as deadly as theism.

I've thought for some time that there's something inside humanity that makes one set of people want to impose their beliefs -- religious, national, social, moral, governmental, economic, whatever -- on other groups. We can't be content, but are driven to impose upon others.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 09:34 PM

People actually worship this? It's cute, but . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 03:29 AM

Late medieval protestantism has nothing to do with the Anglican and Methodist faiths of today.
Everyone did bad things centuries ago.
Nazism, Stalinism and Maoism were all secular ideologies.

If we are all misguided dupes, what harm can it do to live by the principles that you should do to others as you would be done by, forgive those who wrong you, and love not just your neighbour but even your enemy?
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 05:19 AM

"secular ideologies" are indistinguishable, especially in their social effects, from "religions".

"What's in a name"...

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 05:24 AM

Hitler very much considered himself a Christian.(See primary source documents on www.nobeliefs.com)
Stalin always acknowledged the ways in which his Seminary school education proved useful to him later.
I try to practice the principles you rightly endorse Keith.
When it's reciprocal it works when it isn't it doesn't.
When our leaders feel the need of spiritual guidance they don't seek out the likes of you & WYSIWYG.
Please believe me when I tell you that I think we'd all be better off if they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 05:25 AM

Peace, I'm sure it's mother would...

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 06:32 AM

If a dog considers itself a cat, it is still a dog.
No Christian values were embodied in Nazism.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 06:51 AM

"No Christian values were embodied in Nazism."
An argument could be made to that effect Keith.
This also holds true for Fred Phelps & his ilk.
If this sounds intemperate it is not intended to be.
I just feel that we need to respect & defend Secular spaces.
Believers & Non-believers both benefit from doing so.
Neither Atheist nor Theist are dirty words.
We should all beware of anyone on either side who tries to persuade us otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 07:14 AM

He is the Baptist minister who will not Baptise gay people?
I think that he is wrong about that.
I presume he is otherwise Christian in his behavior.
I do not think Hitler was.
Any large group of people has it's wackos.
If I found a wacko atheist I would not cite him as evidence that atheists are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 07:18 AM

Yes Keith Phelps is that Minister but there is more to him than that.
If you google the phrase "God hates" you will see what I mean.
Be warned though its deeply unpleasant.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 07:27 AM

Deeply embarrassing goof No.7822.
My previous post ought to have read "Keith,Phelps" NOT "Keith Phelps".
Purple blushing scarlet.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 07:59 AM

I have a theory that the divides in humanity come down to the basic insecurity of a lot of people. This makes them need to belong to a group and, when they come across others who are not part of that group, they have to push their ideology forward, sometimes extremely aggressively, in order to bouy up their own ego.

This can be taken advantage of by the real egotists and sociopaths who feed off of the adulation and compliance of their followers.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 08:44 AM

There is much debate about whether Hitler was Christian, or just used Christianity as a political tool.

His treaty with the Vatican (Google "Concordat of 1933") was the first "international recognition" of his new regime, and without it the new government likely would have been much slower achieving real control in Germany. The treaty also established "fundamentalist" Vatican Roman Catholicism as the official state religion. It completely neutralized the more liberal Catholic churches within Germany, who were, prior to the treaty, one of the few groups sufficiently organized and large enough to have opposed his subsequent pogroms.

One of the first major attacks on the previously existing order in Germany was the criminalizing of homosexuality, and estimates are that as many as 300,000 victims of this attack may have died in labor camps before they got around to "the jewish problem." It is still debated whether this attack was instigated, or merely abetted, by the Church. It is certainly true that, along with the Fundamentalist Protestant (largely Baptist) Churches, some Catholic Churches were instrumental in the recent passage of amendments to the State Constitutions in 23 US states denying the civil right of marriage or any similar kind of civil association to homosexuals. Nearly all of the remaining states already had, or in the majority of cases have recently passed, statutory prohibitions of the same kind.

As in Germany, there have been frequent recent attempts to write other "religious laws" into State Constitutions and into the US Constitution. As in Germany, there have been several attempts to limit and/or discredit the authority of the highest courts, both with respect to several State Supreme Courts, and for the US Supreme Courts. As in Germany there have been efforts to "stack the Courts" with judges who will vote "God's will" in preference to voting according to Law.

The use of "fundamentalist doctrines" as a political tool permits the creation of multitudinous "laws/rules/regulations" that, if capriciously enforced can prevent people from acting openly, can nurture disrespect for all laws, and can make it much easier to impose arbitrary restrictions and infringements of prior rights on all persons. This was done quite effectively in Germany, and people "accepted" it because almost everyone was "guilty of something," and speaking up about anything could result in arrest, incarceration without trial, and often death in a labor camp. (At least at first, this was largely done under the guise of "emergency powers" assumed by Hitler. Does that sound familiar?)

Who cares if Hitler - or Bush or Brownback or the several others - are/were "Christian?" Fundamentalism offers them enormous political power, as long as they can lip the incantations to keep the "real believers" voting the way the egomaniacal preachers tell them to.

It ain't really about religion. It's all about VOTES. And about Egotistical Lust for POWER.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 09:11 AM

1. I am not opposed to any religion that teaches things such as love, respect for others, the equality of all people, and so on. This includes Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, etc.

2. Though brought up at a time when my church (RC) taught that we were the only ones going to Heaven, I couldn't understand that then and can't now. I have no brief with Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, or anyone else that teaches what Jesus of Nazareth taught (not what the preachers say he taught).

3. As a good friend once said, I try not to let my church interfer with my religion.

4. My contention is that every church has done things that are, at best, unpleasant. This includes actions up to and including killing dissenters. This does not mean that it is done now (but check your church's laws; you might be surprised at what can be done -- defrocking, for example).

5. In the past it was nearly impossible to seperate political from economic from religious motives for these punishments, and in all too many cases it still is (e.g., Pat Robertson).

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 09:20 AM

And by the way, Phelps and his crowd demonstrate the funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq, saying that they died supporting a "gay nation." Check this story, one of many, for info on Phelps and his followers (who seem to be mostly his own family).

I do NOT consider them to be followers of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth....

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 09:20 AM

A new arrival was being shown around Heaven by St Peter.
He was shown all the wonders and all the features of the place described in the texts of all faiths.
Midway through the tour they arrived at a walled enclosure where Peter indicated to the new arrival that they should be very quiet as they passed.
At the end of the tour the new arrival was asked if he had any questions.
"Yes" said the new arrival "What is in the walled enclosure that we passed so quietly?"
"Oh,that" said Peter "That's where we keep the fundamentalists,they think they're the only ones here."

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: John P
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 10:13 AM

Foolstroupe wrote:
"secular ideologies" are indistinguishable, especially in their social effects, from "religions".

I agree about the social effects, but that's the only real similarity I can think of. Unlike secular ideologies, religions believe, in the absence of any evidence, in the existence of a sentient supernatural being that concerns itself with the actions of human beings and that is in some way responsible for the universe and everything in it. This all too often brings them to the desire they have to affect society from a standpoint that doesn't stand up to any logical analysis, and which fills them with a sense of right. Those with secular ideologies are also often filled with a sense of right, but at least they usually have better reasons, or at least reasons that are understandable by the rest of us, even if we disagree with them.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 01:58 PM

Pardon me for protruding, but. . . .

The word "Christian" appears to be sort of a catch-all word that arouses strong emotions, both pro and con. The big mistake that a lot of people make—and forgive me, but a lot of people here keep making—is to assume that the word "Christian" encompasses a single, monolithic group of like-minded people.

That's simply not true.

If that were true, then why are there a couple of different flavors of Catholics, and under the heading "Protestants," we have Lutherans, Episcopalians (who, I understand are similar to Anglicans, but not the same), Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Quakers, and dozens, if not hundreds, of other denominations? Because often members of a particular denomination may disagree about some item of doctrine strenuously enough that they break off (schism) and form, not just a new church, but a whole new denomination. That happened a lot throughout history, which is why we have so many different denominations now.

But then, some of these differences are not just about points of doctrine. Some of the current major differences are about the nature of Christianity itself, and are perhaps best exemplified by certain fairly well-known individuals. A reasonable person cannot possibly know about Dietrich Bonhoffer (martyred because of his resistance to Hitler), Martin Niemöller, (also a resister of the Nazis and author of the famous "When they came for the Communists. . . ."), someone like Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu (later known as Mother Theresa), or pastors such as Barbara Rossing (lecturer and author of many articles and books, including The Rapture Exposed, that refutes the whole idea of Millennialism) and Jim Wallis (editor of Sojourners magazine, lecturer, and author of several books, including God's Politics : Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It) and lump them together with demagogues like James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and the rest of that arrogant, grim-faced, hellfire-and-brimstone lot.

Even though some of the language these folks use may sound similar, they are two entirely different bodies of religious belief. The former believe in the loving, forgiving God that Jesus described. When they work in the community (as they often do), they are usually involved in programs aimed at aiding the poor and the homeless and in sponsoring such organizations as the Lutheran Peace Fellowship and the Fellowship of Reconciliation. Many of them were deeply involved in the Civil Rights Movement, and they are often to be found in peace marches and vigils.

Judging by their actions and statements of belief, the latter group apparently worships an angry, vengeful God. When they work in the community, they attempt to get books banned from libraries, get creationism (or "intelligent design"—creationism in a lab-coat) taught in the schools, get laws passed that intrude into people's private lives, trying to limit what they can read, watch, and listen to, control what they do in the privacy of their own bedrooms, and enforcing their beliefs and moral codes on all others in the society, no matter what their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) might be. In short, they're after secular power. Tip-off phrase:   "This is a Christian country!"

Contrast, for example the agenda ("mission") of The National Council of Churches (left column on their web page), an organization that includes and represents most of the main-line churches in this country, with Christian fundamentalists, a considerably smaller, but highly vocal group, who embrace a combination of Calvinism and Social Darwinism, along with the belief that the folk tales and mythology in the Bible are literally true and that the events described are historical fact.

I fail to see how people who believe that "moral values" consist solely of such things as believing that a woman who becomes pregnant through rape, then terminates the pregnancy with an abortion, should burn in Hell forever after the hell she's already been through; or that two people of the same gender who love each other are also doomed to Hellfire if they express that love; and that it is pleasing in God's eyes to wage war, ignoring its attendant carnage and destruction, to gain natural resources or geopolitical power. Or who believe that poor people should not be assisted because they wouldn't be poor if God didn't want them to be poor, and to help them is to go against God's will. How they can justify calling themselves "Christians" escapes me when what they believe clashes so violently with the actual core teachings of Christ, which can be found in Matthew 5:3-11 and Matthew 25:35-40.

There are many who would consign my soul to Hell for having said all of the above.

Big deal!

Anyway, it's neither fair nor accurate to condemn all Christians because of the ranting, raving, and attempted power-grabbing of a bunch of shriveled, screwed up little souls who would undoubtedly crucify Jesus all over again if he actually did return.

Don Firth

P. S. Here is an excellent article (speech) by a very well-known Baptist:   Clicky.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 02:07 PM

Likewise, Don, there are differences in Judaism and Islam -- not to mention Buddhism and Hinduism.

I agree with you, and you said it very well indeed.

(I won't quote the former head of the KKK who said, "There's more than one Klan. To talk about 'the Klan' is like putting all sorts of nuts in one box.")

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Hollowfox
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 04:55 PM

(ahem) On a lighter note, when I read the beginnings of this thread a couple of days ago, I remembered checking some of these videos out of my library when my urchins were just we'uns. The series, by the way, is called "Who's Afraid of Opera?" I remembered Dame Joan Sutherland, but not the puppets, so I looked and, sure enough, the library still owns some of the videos - including the one with Faust. So I reserved them (they haven't come in yet for me, so I can't report on the quality of the productions). I mentioned to my (now 19 year old) son that I was sending for the tapes, and why, and he happily exclaimed, "Oh, I remember those! Since it was called 'Who's Afraid of Opera' I thought that the puppets were afraid of opera, and the point of the show was to reassure the puppets! I always wondered why a bunch of puppets would be afraid of opera..."
(We pause now while I nearly busted a gut laughing) Time and again I see kids picking up anything but the intended lesson from this sort of thing. I love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 05:28 PM

What Don Firth said: Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 05:30 PM

Well put Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 06:55 PM

Thanks, Don.

If English speaking people have to have that explained, you can imagine what the Muslim world thinks of the Christian world and vice versa. Stereotypes have never been the answer to anything. In fact, stereotypes only lead to conflict.

Bush and Co. have always known this and have used this to manipulate the masses and create a war without end.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 07:56 PM

Both in Germany and Italy, there was a 'religious faith' in the beliefs of their ideologies, even without any historical facts or proofs. They were even manufactured to order, and when you next watch the Olympic Torch Relay, or see the Olympic Rings - remember that!
:-)