BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With

Subject: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 09:32 PM

Don't get me wrong- I'm not expecting anyone here to describe an evil she or he has done. Even I won't do that! However, I've been thinking lately about the dumb choices we make in our lives- and some of those choices are evil. Not all are of the same magnitude – thank the gods!- but they are more a matter of degree than greater or lesser virtue.

I'm thinking of choices that people have made, choices that altered their lives and the lives of others- and the people have to learn how to live with the aftermath.

On a national scale OJ Simpson and Robert Blake come to my mind- how are they able to sleep?

But I have much closer examples of it in my own life.

·When I worked one summer at a wilderness lodge one of my co-workers was a 19- year- old man. He was somewhat immature, no doubt- I do know that he was heavily into Dungeons and Dragons, for instance- but he was interesting and he and I and a slightly older man spent quite a bit of time and talk together.

A couple of years later he was the deciding force in his grandfather's death. He told two friends of his how to get into his grandfather's apartment and where the old man kept his money. He said later that he had no idea they would kill him. But they did- there wasn't much money there- and they shot him.

I ran across my friend one day a few days after the incident and he asked me for a hug. He got out of his car, we hugged, and then he drove to the police station and turned himself in. He ended up spending 18 months in the penitentiary.

·A trial just ended dismissed by the Judge because the state didn't make its case that the girl on trial was the instigator and party to having two former boyfriends of hers kill her mother. Leaving aside the horrendous way she died – which no one would have foreseen - it is very likely that the girl had a good idea that they would abduct her mother – she says she didn't think they were serious – and therefore her mother could end up dead - I think it's very likely that the girl was fantasizing and did not even come close to wondering what her own life would be like if the friends succeeded in killing her.

Because the judge dismissed the case the girl is free unless and until further legal action ensues. She is advised not to return to her village because the inhabitants are furious. The other day I saw the girl as she drifted past my home. What struck me forcibly is how very alone she looks. She is now 17 years old.

·A week ago a historic church and community hall in Juneau burnt down to rubble and a lone chimney poking out like a bleached bone. It was known that the fire started in a 21-foot boat that was kept parked in the back of the church and next to the house of the man who owned it. It was a cold night and we knew it was possible that a warming fire – a candle, a lamp - got out of control- from time to time previously the owner had rousted out people who had taken shelter in the boat's cabin. That is what I hoped was what had happened. At least there would be no evil involved.

It was not to be. They have arrested a 24 year old man, a man who had been ejected from a party there that night- and who allegedly came back hours later and set it afire. It appears that he was trying to get back at the boat's owner- I doubt very much that it occurred to him that the losses would be incalculably greater. The fire burnt down the boat, the house next door, the church and an attached community hall that was the focus and location of music, theatre, meetings, slide shows, dinners and dances from its inception in 1956. The church, which was built in 1895, had also in recent years been the venue for a lot of concerts. It had wonderful acoustics. All gone. And if there had been a wind as there was a few hours later it could have roared up the hill taking out block after block.

My point is that in making the choices that we make we have to find a way to forgive ourselves. If we want to continue to live.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 09:45 PM

Evil is a politically incorrect word these days, Ebbie, as is sin. I had to laugh at my grandson (age 7) who wrote in a school book that his class produced that he was punished unjustly for making a   
"Poor decision." Most of us are more comfortable saying that we made a "mistake" and that it was "dumb." I've done things that hurt people out of selfishness and insensitivity. Whether or not they were Evil depends on how people define the word. I've done things that I knew weren't right because I wanted something. No sense whitewashing it.

I had a friend who seemed guilt-wracked about a lot of things and her attitude was that God only forgives you for sins you did, not knowing that they were sins. If you do something out of ignorance, it's hard to beat yourself silly over it. If you willfully ignore that little voice that says, "This isn't right, what you're doing," and go ahead and do it for your own pleasure, that's a different story.

Mea culpa.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 09:57 PM

OK, maybe not evil. Maybe only a "calamity, atrocity, cruelness, abomination, barbarity, brutality, crime, enormity, horror, inhumanity, iniquity, monstrosity, offense, offensiveness, outrage, ruthlessness, savagery, viciousness, wrong, immoral, base, corrupt, criminal, delinquent, iniquitous, mean, reprobate, sinful, vicious, vile, villainous and wicked."


:)

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 10:33 PM

There are three things we are capable of. The thought, the word, and the deed. There are mistakes possible in all three. Mistakes arise either out of ignorance or out of weakness...or a combination of the two. To have harmful intentions is a mistake in thought. To speak harmful words is a mistake in speech. To carry out a harmful thought physically is a mistake in action.

Society mostly punishes and regulates only our harmful actions, but there are some laws meting out punishment for harmful words as well (slander, libel, perjury). Harmful thoughts? That's far too subtle for the law to deal with. The pschologist, the counselor, the parent, the clergyman, and the shaman have had to deal with that.

It is the crucial battlefield though, because the thought is the parent of both word and deed. They are aftereffects of a prompting thought.

I've seen plenty of evidence that harmful thoughts which do not get acted out in deeds or even expressed in words will still gradually poison the one who is thinking them. And that usually leads to further harm somewhere along the way.

That's why the most effective path to improving a human being is enabling him to become aware of, and in eventually in healthy control of his own thought processes.

Most people don't control their thoughts at all. Their undisciplined thoughts run wild and control them. That's where all the trouble starts. That's why a great philosopher said, "The unexamined life is not worth living."

The young people you mention, Ebbie, had darkly negative thoughts in their minds that got the better of them. That, combined with a little lack of awareness, can destroy any life with the greatest of ease.

Of all the things in life I have found my own thoughts to be the hardest thing to control. I can handle money, no problem. I have no trouble with drugs or alcohol or the law. I am able to resist becoming violent to people. But can I control my negative thoughts? Well...not too well, I'd have to say... Better than some, but not as well as I'd like, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 10:44 PM

I know 2 truly evil people. Will not name names, but I know what I know. For cause.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 10:47 PM

Well, I don't see why you can't call a person who is totally in the grip of destructive or vicious thoughts "evil". Such people certainly have an evil effect on themselves and others.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 10:49 PM

The strength to face squarely what one actually has done and what one actually has not done is rare, and usually requires close companionship or help.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Alba
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 11:46 PM

Evil is obvious only in retrospect.
Gloria Steinem

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:01 AM

I'd say Ms Steinem is right about that in almost every case. It's a very perceptive statement on her part.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:05 AM

Only in retrospect? In other words, in the heat of the moment one is not able to judge the rightness of an action?

I can believe that there are times and situations when the only act one can conceive of appears the only solution to a problem. Surely, however, an act that requires psyching oneself up to it also requires time- and time tends to work counter to the extreme act.

One aspect of your 'thought,word, deed', Little Hawk, is something I'm familiar with. I call it 'poisoning my own well'. I'm capable of dwelling on a subject or memory or some disabling despair until I am fit only to retreat alone to the darkest woods. I am, however, much better at catching myself at it at a much earlier phase and am also able to laugh, a tad ruefully, at finding myself ladling the toxic stuff again.

The funny thing about the three lives I depicted above is that I really hadn't noticed that the one thing they have in common is their youth.

But they make me feel so sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:14 AM

The good thing about making mistakes when you are young is that if you learn from that mistake, you have enough time to recover.

When you are older, you have to be more careful about your decisions because you don't have as much time to make up for the mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:26 AM

Darned good point, Dianavan.

I wrote in one song..."there's no fool like a young fool, no fool like a young fool, but a young fool still has time to change"

It was a play on the old saying "no fool like an old fool".

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:40 AM

I dunno. Maybe I have less faith in the restorative powers of time. The older person has a chance at recognizing the frailties of human nature, and coming to an understanding and forgiveness of their own- the young may not.

I think the likelihood of suicide of a young person who has committed a cultural taboo is a high risk. The older person may leave town and set up a new life somewhere else. The young may simply not see a way out.

On the other hand I am making gross generalizations. I really don't have a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:50 AM

Mistakes aren't evil. Intentional harm is evil & the degree doesn't matter. I can wish for something rotten to occur but if I choose not to act on the thought or emotion, then no harm done to anyone, myself included. To commit an act of harm on someone is evil. It's only the degree of the act that determines how evil. No evil is worst when it causes the loss of life. Put a gun to someone's head pull the trigger & watch them die. Pure evil, nothing worst. Start a war, pure evil. Slander someone's good name intentionally is evil but not to the same degree, doing it unintentionally is poor judgement or a mistake, the thought of it is nothing but a thought. There are people that start off evil & change, then there are those that don't & end up rotten to the core & then there are those that just are evil from jump street & die that way & lastly there are those that come into this world & go out never harming a soul. Why? Who the hell knows the best any of us can do for the rest is to never cause harm anyone, ever.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:17 AM

I mostly agree with you, Barry. But the point remains: Once you have done something like that, what then? How do you live with it? Where do you go from there?

I might add that there is NOTHING more powerful than thought- it is where it all begins.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:20 AM

Evil is only a matter of point of view

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:30 AM

Why not just regard it as a minor miracle? The youth intended harm; that's bad. He intended harm to property; that's better than harming people. He did not foresee that another building could be affected. That could have harmed people- bad. But it was a church, and so not occupied, and no one was hurt. Good. A religious person might speculate that God had diverted the harm to His house in order to protect people.

In WWII, bombs fell in London all around St. Paul's Cathedral, but the building itself was hardly damaged, and many regarded this as a miracle. But some 30000 civilians were killed in London. Now wouldn't it have been a more practical miracle if ALL the bombs had fallen on St. Paul's, leaving those civilians unharmed?

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:40 PM

So, Barry.

Killing someone is evil -- it causes them intentional harm. Now, let's take it another step: suppose I shot and killed Adolf Hitler in, say, 1932. I did it coldly and deliberately, following a well-thought-out plan, because I could foresee the eventual outcome of his intentions and teachings, I had discussed my foresight with others, and they agreed with me. We could see no other way to prevent what we saw coming than with Hitler's death.

Were my actions evil? Or is there a "good evil"? (Yes, I'm arguing about the past from the point of hindsight. This is a discussion, remember?)

If I walk out the door after work today and see a man viciously raping a young child, would I do evil if I severly wounded or killed the man?

Suppose I'm in charge of a lifeboat in the icy North Atlantic waters. The boat is full; anymore will put the boat in very grave danger. What do I do about those in the water calling for help? What about someone in the water who grabs the side of the boat?

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 05:46 PM

Hi Rapaire
I don't consider any of your above situations as a cold blooded murder. I see Hitler & Bush in the same light, only one not as bright as the other. If a robbery takes place & someone is killed & it wasn't intentional, they took a life & will have to pay. Bad choice. If they walk in blow away the guard, again bad choice but no chance of redemption in my eyes. I agree with you that there are many shades but there is no escape, reason, rational & you cannot make up or live with that kind of action, that's pure evil.
The lifeboat's full you & the survivors can live with it. The lifeboat's got room for more & you don't want to share the room or don't want to ration the supplies, someone needs to pull a Gypsy Rose Lee.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 07:01 PM

"no chance of redemption in my eyes" Barry

The problem, Barry, is that no one can live without redemption in the sense of living in spite of of what one has done. The world may be a better place if everybody who has done such a desperately bad thing went out and killed him or herself- but there will always be some exceptions- and probably the most desensitized ones.

Paul Burke, the 24 year old man who started the fire in the boat also burnt down a house with sleeping occupants. It isn't to his credit that they awoke.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Janie
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 07:42 PM

I believe we can only forgive ourselves of those 'sins' or 'evils' for which we truly take ownership. We have to accept responsibility for ourselves and the choices we make. And unless we can forgive ourselves, we are not really capable of forgiving others.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Amos
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 08:16 PM

It is clear that there is just action which harms, as in Rapaire's example. Unfortunately, people don't do well with the power to make that choice for others. It is very corruptive power.

There is no way out of individual acts of harm except to face them and take personal responsibility for what occurred, making what amends you can and learning the lessons you must. To do anything worse -- such as condemning yourself for the past, or harming yourelf for it -- is to worsen the situation.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 08:55 PM

Thanks, Amos. I was trying to find words for it.

I have no idea whether the girl I mentioned is in therapy of any sort. She has a father remaining- who is stalwart in her defense - but I don't believe she has siblings.

Oddly enough she was an honors student at school and in fact was in Anchorage representing her school the day her mother was taken from her home.

When she walked by my home I was out on the lawn throwing tennis balls for my dog. The girl's eyes flicked toward my dog and then she glanced at me. I said Hi and she dipped her head in response and kept walking.

If this were my child - assuming I was NOT the mother she had a hand in killing! - it would break my heart to think that her life has basically ended. And yet, and yet, I don't know the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 09:00 PM

Islamic terrorists are pure evil.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:19 PM

Martin, I think that all terrorists are evil -- Islamic, Christian, or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:41 AM

"I think that all terrorists are evil -- Islamic, Christian, or whatever."

As are those that fuel their fires.

Ebbie, "No chance of redemption in my eyes". I'm not talking about that girl or a soldier I'm talking about those that kill with no thought, care or mercy, intentional killing of an innocent. Weither it be a president, a contract killer or a kid looking for a trill kill, there is no room for redemption here.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 09:35 AM

Can we include then those whose actions (or inactions) lead to the death of others? For example, a politician who because of economic beliefs casts the deciding vote against a bill which would provide free or inexpensive medical care to the poor? Or someone who, because of convictions about the superiority of their religion, refuses to contribute to famine relief? Or someone who, because of personal belief, has a late-term abortion? Or someone who denies their own HIV infection and practices very unsafe sex?

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 04:25 AM

Did anyone see a certain documentary on BBC4 (UK)the other night? It was called Bus 174 (or something like that) and was in the 'Storyville' series.

A young Brazilian boy, Sandro, witnessed his mother being murdered and ran away to become one of the 'street children' of Rio de Janeiro. He fell into a life of petty crime and substance abuse. In the early 90s he and other street children were living in a square outside a church. One night some armed policemen turned up and killed several of the children. Completely traumatised by now Sandro continued on his downward spiral including spending time in horrific Brazilian jails. He appears to have made several attempts to build some sort of life for himself but kept drifting back to the streets.
In 2000 he attempted to rob some bus passengers at gun-point. The bus was soon surrounded by police and the media with TV cameras - a lengthy siege began. The police wanted to shoot him (and had several opportunities to do so) but were blocked by the authorities who didn't want prime-time TV viewers to witness someone getting their brains blown out. The hostages on the bus (all women) soon realised that Sandro had no stomach for killing anyone but was trapped and terrified about what the police might do to him and the prospect of going back to jail.
Eventually Sandro got off the bus with one of his hostages (a young girl). A policemen stepped forward and attempted to shoot him in the head - he missed and shot the girl instead! Sandro then shot the girl as well. The police grabbed Sandro, threw him into the back of a police van, piled on top of him and smothered him to death ...

There was obviously evil at work here but as one of the hostages (an extremely wise and perceptive young woman who appears to have kept a very cool head throughout all of the seige)told him' "you're the real victim here, Sandro").

I can't help thinking that Sandro, given his appalling life experiences, was not really equipped to fully distinguish between good and evil choices. The (Brazilian) system - which was embarrassed by his very existence was always lurking in the background just waiting for him to make the wrong choice. On the other hand the Police, who made some dreadful choices, got away scot-free - isn't it always the way?

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 09:38 AM

Good post, DB. Those who glibly assign the evaluation "evil" to the sacrificial demon figures of their choice are those who simply can't be bothered looking any farther into something than the first strong impression that registered on their consciousness.

They'd make poor chess players. If they were God, we'd be living in a totally vicious Universe and millions of souls would be burning eternally in Hell, just like the fundamentalists think is happening. And it would all appear to be totally justified too.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: LilyFestre
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:01 PM

WOW. I read the title of the thread and wondered how it applied to me...here's what I came up with.

*Guilty look*

I use paper plates every morning for breakfast and throw them away. Not great for the environment.

Whew. I'm so far off base it isn't funny!

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:29 PM

Evil doesn't enter into it. I don't know what does but it is a matter of, oh...let's call it sanity.

Do we ever actually make a bad decision? I mean right at the time we make it......Is it a bad decision? Or is it a bad decision in retrospect? Does anyone really ever say. "This is the stupidest fuckin' thing I can do but here we go anyway?" Yeah, I know a redneck's last words are "Watch me do THIS" but that is in a way exactly what I mean. In the moment. In the moment. Precisely then. Only if you're "insane" do you make a bad decision. A nanosecond later you can see it's completely idiotic/dangerous/whatever but exactly in the moment, we make nothing but good decisions. We just know it's gonna' work or be a good and righteous thing don't we? Well, at any rate I do.......

My life is filled with "bad" decisions but I never made a bad decision in my entire life ...... in the moment. I think that is why the question asked is interesting and why, if we are intelligent and sensitive human beings, as we age we may (may, I say) become somewhat smarter, but are racked with pain/sadness/anger/angst/etc. about the "evil" we have done and how the waves of our lives have washed over the lives of others.

I give you Emmylou's beautiful "Prayer in Open D".......One of very few songs that says we are responsible for the things we've done and the possible sorrow they have brought but leaves us with a touch of hope for forgiveness...........

There's a valley of sorrow in my soul
Where every night I hear the thunder roll
Like the sound of a distant gun
Over all the damage I have done
And the shadows filling up this land
Are the ones I built with my own hand
There is no comfort from the cold
Of this valley of sorrow in my soul

There's a river of darkness in my blood
And through every vein I feel the flood
I can find no bridge for me to cross
No way to bring back what is lost
Into the night it soon will sweep
Down where all my grievances I keep
But it won't wash away the years
Or one single hard and bitter tear

And the rock of ages I have known
Is a weariness down in the bone
I use to ride it like a rolling stone
Now just carry it alone

There's a highway risin' from my dreams
Deep in the heart I know it gleams
For I have seen it stretching wide
Clear across to the other side
Beyond the river and the flood
And the valley where for so long I've stood
With the rock of ages in my bones
Someday I know it will lead me home

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:36 PM

Wow. Spaw, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 08:07 PM

Beautiful stuff, Spaw. Thank you very much. You are so right.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 10:28 PM

You're right on, Spaw. Dead right.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Alba
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 10:32 PM

Spaw...
Thank You..that is one beautiful Post.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: LadyJean
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:24 AM

I know a woman named Sue. Sue has no conscience. She has never murdered anyone. I don't suppose she ever will. She will borrow money under false pretenses. She has no qualms about writing a friend a bad check, and I wouldn't put credit card fraud past her.
She is, otherwise, a very pleasant and likeable person, which, I suspect is what's kept her out of jail for the last 20 years.

Subject: RE: BS: The Evil We Do- and Live With
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:27 AM

There's an explanation for everything, but that doesn't mean it's easy to figure it out.