BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be

Subject: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 10:25 AM

ACLU has a rather creative take on what our society might lead to with the pervasive intrusion we are experiencing into our private lives. What's scary about this little send-up is pizza places really DO know our addys, names and what we've previously ordered before, just by our telephone number!

CLICK

or, this: http://www.aclu.org/pizza/

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 10:35 AM

I got a "YOU ARE NOT AUTHORISED TO VIEW THIS PAGE" message.
OMG They must know how long it is since I ordered a Pizza.(ages)

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 10:42 AM

hmmm...same thing here and I've checked the link

try just pasting it in?

http://www.aclu.org/pizza/

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 10:55 AM

That worked.
And they say U.S.Corporations don't listen to their customers?

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: JennyO
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 11:02 AM

I think this might work - clicky.

What I find scary about this is that I suspect we are already a lot closer to that scenario than we realise!

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 11:11 AM

Don't want businesses collecting data on you? Just follow these three simple steps:

1) Pay cash.

2) Conduct all business face-to-face, not by telephone or computer and don't have anything delivered.

3) If someone insists you give them personal data, lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 11:25 AM

Maybe I should be more worried but one thing makes me less worried: The last couple of times (not each of them) there was a terrorist attack somewhere in Europe or the USA some time later it came out that the information to prevent the attack had been there already, some place in the files, and noone had seen it until it was too late.

The USA reportedly have millions of recorded telephone calls in Arabic and not enough personel to be able to listen and understand. The larger any data collection gets the more difficult the retrieval gets. That's a natural barrier as long as the country is not yet a totalitarian regime like for instance Nazi Germany and the former so called communist countries.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: MMario
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 11:32 AM

looked at in light of this it is a good thing my b-i-l's doctors office didn't know that he would miss his appointment because he was undergoing surgery that day. (same doctor as the appointment)

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: number 6
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 11:53 AM

I'm not so worried that info regarding me is being collected .... what does worry me is that the government wants that info.

Thanks for the link Kat.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 11:56 AM

Study the ways the information is collected and you will see ways to avoid being collected. It was done in Nazi Germany, it was done in the former Soviet Republics, and it is being done in various countries around the world today.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: number 6
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 12:03 PM

Regarding the references made to Nazi Germany and the former Soviet Union ... Is the U.S. now considered a totalatrian state? I guess that is the reason I stated I'm more worried about the government that wants that inofrmation rather than the actual collection points.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 12:05 PM

Problem there Rap is that with the technology available today one would have to either become a total recluse or make avoidance a full time job.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Bert
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 12:34 PM

the way to stop this becoming a problem is listening to Wolfgang and BWL. swamp them with data and occasionally lie and it's OK to change your phone number now and then.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 01:25 PM

I see that at least the ACLU envisages cash as still being an acceptable way of paying for things. I suspect that sooner or later down this road we are likely to find it won't be. It's already the case that for some transactions such as renting cars, paying cash is seen as suspicious, even if it is accepted.

I'm fully expecting that it won't be long before when I hand over cash in a supermarket the checkoit person will ring a bell, and say, "I'm sorry, we don't accept that - could you give me a card instead".

We call Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia "totalitarian", but the truth is they were amateurs at that game. In fact that's why they had to be so brutal about it. With current technology, and with the technology in the pipeline, it becomes possible for the first time in history for the people in power to have total knowledge of what we do; and in the final analysis, total knowledge mean total control.

No need to be brutal about it, unless of course that become necessary - and our rulers have demonstrated that, when they think it is necessary, they are quite willing to be as brutal as anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 01:48 PM

Now, now, Kevin! They're called "leaders" not "rulers". Rulers tell people what to do and put them in jail if they don't. Leaders tell people what to do and put them in jail if they don't. Errr... Wait a minute... Sumfin's wrong here...

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 01:58 PM

"Our chief organizational change only created an enormous hierarchy in Washington, where information goes to die," said Prof. John Arquilla of the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, Calif. "By contrast, al-Qaeda is tied together by the Internet. It gives maximum flexibility to its operatives in the field. We should have allowed the intelligence agencies to continue as they were—and to network with each other."

When Posner spreaks, the Supreme Court listens...

Richard A. Posner, a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals in Chicago who has written extensively on intelligence reform, called the NCTC a "Rube Goldberg-style reorganization."

"It has just made things worse," Posner said. "The CIA already had a counterterrorism center. Why create another one?"

In brief, like the Internet the information collected is a giant library of information that has been spread across the floor, tossed randomly into piles, with no one able to coordinate it or make any sense out of it.

Information without organization is garbage. Information that is organized but which no one uses or pays attention to may as well not exist except for ex post facto analyses of events.

Piling Agency on top of Agency and information heap upon information heap retards, rather than furthers, information usage. Swamp the boat and nobody gets to shore.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:26 PM

Notes:

1. Kat's original link goes to someplace (truncated) on mudcat. While mudcat is the most complete source of accurate and timely information available a complete address is needed in links.

2. I note that the ACLU script requires Macromedia Flash, apparently one of the most invasive and exploitative programs currently common on the internet. Their last update EULA "incorporated by citation" 32 separate "subtier" EULAs, most of which have no identifiable purpose. My attempt to look at the first 10 or so of the "incorporated" agreements produced additional layers of "incorporated by citation" agreements. I abandonded the attempt to find out what one must agree to let them do with a list of more than 100 "hidden" permissions one grants and agreements one makes when clicking "Accept" on the original EULA. I still don't know what they claim to be free to do with their tracking methods; but they do automatically (at least in some cases) add "automatic updates" which means they claim freedom to access your computer when you're not present, or without notice if you are.

But they said "you can trust us."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:32 PM

JinK

How does one go about not having Macromedia Flash automatically start loading when opening a link, it's a real pain in the butt for me on dial-up and I have to reboot to get it to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:47 PM

Thanks, JohninKS. I checked it again and found the mistake.

Thanks for your comments and discussion, all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 09:48 PM

bobad -

No site should start downloading the Multimedia Flash Program without your permission, but beginning the download for a presentation is normal. I've usually been able to just use the "Back" button to get the presentation load to quite, or just roll down my Favorites list and go somewhere else.

I rarely run into "Flash" presentation except on links from here, and I make a habit of right-clicking links and picking "Open in New Window," so that if there's a problem with the link - or when I'm done with it, I can just "click the X" and close that browser window, and not have to wait for the thread to reload.

Closing your browser or the browser window that the download started in should work, and re-opening a browser window is a little less drastic than a reboot. If the browser itself isn't responsive, sometimes right-clicking on the button on the lower icon bar will let you click "close" and turn off the browser. In WinXP, Alt-F4 is a standard shortcut for "close" that may(?) work even when the browser is "frozen" on the download.

With WinXP, the 3-fingered salute - Ctl-Alt-Del should open Task Manager. The second tab should be "Processes." If you click on the download process (assuming you can find it) and click the "End Process" button down at the bottom it should stop the download. With Win2K you can do the same thing, but it usually takes a few more steps to get to task manager. In either WinXP or Win2K closing a "process that's running in your browser" may leave your browser sort of in limbo with no place to go.

There's a similar task manager turnoff in Win98, but closing any process in Win98 is fairly likely to get you a BSD (Blue-Screen-of-Death) so you may end up rebooting anyway.

The "Back Button," or closing the browser window, has always been sufficient for me, so other comments are sort of guesswork. Maybe you're just going to sleazy sites like CNN and BBC that are a bit too proud of their "Flash."

(I'm told that the real solution is to get a modern fast connection so that the downloads only take a second or so, but most Flash stuff never finishes downloading for me, so those links get closed and ignored.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 09:57 PM

Sorry for my imprecise descriptive I actually meant a Flash presentation. I am able to close the window or go back no problem but when I try to access a site my computer slows down as if the presentation is still downloading somewhere in the background. When I open the task manager it shows that nothing is running. When I reboot it comes back to normal speed.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 07:08 PM

You think "leaders" would be more to their taste than "rulers", Bee-dubya-ell?

You might be right , I suppose. Now let me see - in Spanish that would be "Caudillo", in Italian it would be "Duce" and in German it would be "Fuhrer"...

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 09:32 PM

Yikes!

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 04:01 AM

GCHQ have cracked the swamping problem. With reasonable accuracy, computer programs listen/check for "keywords", and mainly communications with keyowrds are then checked. Of course this means that if you remember to call your suitcase bomb "homemade bread" you stand a better chance of evading monitoring.

But when you combine global communications monitoring with the new UK identity cards the prospect of all us slaves being 100% monitored to make sure we always do as we are told and never effectively organise to assert any liberty becomes even more alarming.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 08:50 AM

The Unknown Citizen

(To JS/07/M/378 This Marble Monument Is Erected by the State)

He was found by the Bureau of Statistics to be
One against whom there was no official complaint,
And all the reports on his conduct agree
That, in the modern sense of an old-fashioned word, he was a saint,
For in everything he did he served the Greater Community.
Except for the War till the day he retired
He worked in a factory and never got fired,
But satisfied his employers, Fudge Motors Inc.
Yet he wasn't a scab or odd in his views,
For his Union reports that he paid his dues,
(Our report on his Union shows it was sound)
And our Social Psychology workers found
That he was popular with his mates and liked a drink.
The Press are convinced that he bought a paper every day
And that his reactions to advertisements were normal in every way.
Policies taken out in his name prove that he was fully insured,
And his Health-card shows he was once in hospital but left it cured.
Both Producers Research and High-Grade Living declare
He was fully sensible to the advantages of the Installment Plan
And had everything necessary to the Modern Man,
A phonograph, a radio, a car and a frigidaire.
Our researchers into Public Opinion are content
That he held the proper opinions for he time of year;
When there was peace, he was for peace; when there was war, he went.
He was married and added five children to the population,
Which our Eugenist says was the right number for a parent of his generation.
And our teachers report that he never interfered with their education.
Was he free? Was he happy? The question is absurd:
Had anything been wrong, we should certainly have heard.

        -- W. H. Auden

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 01:43 PM

One effect will be that increasing number of perfectly innocent words will start to be logged up as subversive because the authorities have decided that they are used as substitutes for the real ones.

And when you've been shot in your bed in a dawn raid because "mandolin" had been identified as a way of saying "mortar bomb" your next of kin will get a belated apology, no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 02:43 PM

Thanks for that, Rapaire.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 03:03 PM

I'm not afraid of cameras and computers. I'm afraid of the people behind them.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: open mike
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:48 PM

i missed this first time around...perhaps these threads can be combined?
with the invasion of privacy thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: autolycus
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:34 PM

We resisted the Soviets as representing everything we were against.

One of those was surveillance of citizens. Not done in a freedom-loving democracy.

Were our leaders lying, or have we done an about-turn?


   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Naemanson
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:48 PM

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.

James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

All predicted over 170 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM

Or as Huey Long may have said (though the quote varies: "If Fascism comes To America it would be on a program of Americanism. But we'll call it ANTIfascism."

In England it'd probably be called something else - "New Social Responsibility" perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Kaleea
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 01:41 PM

Or you could just keep a few frozen pizzas in the freezer. Of course, you must remember to pay cash for your groceries so they don't have any of your personal info-& don't forget to give them your theirstore shopping card to swipe into their 'puter so you'll get their money saving price on frozen pizzas, & you'll get $$saving coupons with your receipt based upon your personal shopping choices. Also, they'll send you mailings to your home with coupons, & ecoupons via email-with preference to the sorts of items you normally buy as their 'puter knows what you buy. If you don't have your card on you when you go to the store, just tell them your phone # & your info will be recognized. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: GUEST,G
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:12 PM

A couple things just came to mind.

1. I no longer write checks, haven't for several years, and all bills get paid by Auto-Pay with fewer people seeing my name and other info.

2. As far as cash goes, If I lose my debit card, it costs me nothing.
The only time I need cash is for some event parking fees and not all of them, for that matter.

Actually another thing with regard to this thread, if I desire not to have data collected on me, I will be sure the bedroom drapes are tightly closed. Otherwise, my Social Security number ensures that anyone can get what they think they need.

Let's not be paranoid, okay?

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:07 PM

We've been watching a new Mystery on PBS, from the UK, entitled "The Last Enemy." In the introduction, they mention the fact that most UK citizens now have ID cards. Is this true and how do you all feel about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:17 PM

We haven't got ID cards yet - but the government wants to bring them in. There's a lot of opposition to the idea, including the opposition parties, and many if not most members of the ruling party (though the Labour Party's leaders don't take much notice of them) and it might not happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 03:15 PM

Ah, thanks for the information. I may have caught the bit last night a little late as the intro had already started when I turned it on, but it *seemed* as if the host was speaking as fact in 2008. Obviously, it must've been an artifice or part of the show. I confess the show itself has given me much to consider should our country try to get even more involved in our daily lives.

The other thing it highlighted was surveillance cameras everywhere. I seem to recall some discussion on Mudcat a few years ago about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Total Surveillance State-what it cld be
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM

Heck, I'm put security cameras in the Library.   Caught a thief last week, too.

People were worried that I could tell what they were reading when we put the cameras in. Shucks, I can tell what they're reading a lot easier and cheaper than with the cameras -- if I really cared, which I don't.