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Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions

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Once Famous 30 Apr 06 - 01:19 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 Apr 06 - 01:16 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Apr 06 - 01:02 PM
Once Famous 30 Apr 06 - 12:40 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 Apr 06 - 12:32 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Apr 06 - 11:56 AM
Once Famous 29 Apr 06 - 09:57 PM
GUEST,bflat 29 Apr 06 - 09:10 PM
Pauline L 29 Apr 06 - 08:53 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Apr 06 - 08:02 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 29 Apr 06 - 07:49 PM
GUEST,Wesley S 29 Apr 06 - 06:49 PM
Once Famous 29 Apr 06 - 05:54 PM
frogprince 29 Apr 06 - 05:18 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Apr 06 - 11:59 AM
Ernest 29 Apr 06 - 11:06 AM
CapriUni 29 Apr 06 - 11:03 AM
dick greenhaus 29 Apr 06 - 10:53 AM
PoppaGator 29 Apr 06 - 10:48 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 28 Apr 06 - 11:50 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 28 Apr 06 - 11:36 PM
Richard Brandenburg 28 Apr 06 - 11:36 PM
GUEST,TJ 28 Apr 06 - 09:25 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Apr 06 - 08:31 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 28 Apr 06 - 06:44 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Apr 06 - 06:18 PM
Francy 28 Apr 06 - 05:49 PM
Once Famous 28 Apr 06 - 05:19 PM
Richard Brandenburg 28 Apr 06 - 05:18 PM
Wesley S 28 Apr 06 - 05:15 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 28 Apr 06 - 05:09 PM
Joe Offer 28 Apr 06 - 04:54 PM
Once Famous 28 Apr 06 - 04:45 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 28 Apr 06 - 04:05 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Apr 06 - 04:02 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Apr 06 - 03:58 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 28 Apr 06 - 03:42 PM
dick greenhaus 28 Apr 06 - 02:55 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Apr 06 - 02:47 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 28 Apr 06 - 01:51 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Apr 06 - 01:18 PM
Stringsinger 28 Apr 06 - 12:53 PM
Janice in NJ 28 Apr 06 - 11:03 AM
Pauline L 28 Apr 06 - 01:34 AM
Janice in NJ 27 Apr 06 - 04:10 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 27 Apr 06 - 01:40 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Apr 06 - 01:19 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 27 Apr 06 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,mrs punkfolkroker 27 Apr 06 - 12:48 PM
Maryrrf 27 Apr 06 - 12:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 01:19 PM

Thanks, weelittledrummer.

The purist holier than thou fingerpointing is as I have said decisive and has not served the music or the artists who make it very well at all.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 01:16 PM

I agree with every word Martin. wonder what peasant does for a living, and how he would feel if someone insisted he did it for nothing.

just weight it against the number of musicians you know without a pot to piss in. these are the people who will cry themselves to sleep about the injustices visited on Robert Johnson, Bix Beiderbeck and all the cannon of musician saints - and can'r see that the same stuff applies today.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 01:02 PM

Must have gotten the concept of benefit from something Carlo Rossie whispered into my ear....my mistake....

However.....I still maintain that benefits should be entirely so.
I am also tired of festivals not being festivals. One finds armys of volunteers and grants but the requirement to volunteer is not as it should be extended to everyone. Perhaps we would require fewer grants if this was the case and anyway why do festivals need grants more than the people.

They need the grant money as well as the proceeds money.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 12:40 PM

Art in any form does and will command great prices.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 12:32 PM

Who ever said that the festival was a benefit? It never has been nor will it ever be. The event does however provide a lot to the economy of the region.

Yes, New Orleans will BENEFIT from the festival being held but this event is not a fundraiser. Many, if not all, of the musicians have previously participated in some sort of charity for the community. This years festival is also giving many New Orleans based musicians an opportunity to make a living. The festival organizers increased the number of locals into the lineup this year.

The "grant" that you mentioned and was mentioned earlier was basically a loan from Shell Oil that enabled the festival organizers to continue the event this year. The damage that occured seriously effected their site and operations as well and Shell Oil gave the money in exchange to have their name included in the festival.

You made a lot of assumptions about the character of the performers and organizers that is not based on any facts that I am aware of. You are certainly entitled to an opinion, even though we have gone off on a tangent from what this thread was initially about.

Everyone is entitled to make a living and earn what the market bears. Everyone should feel a sense of moral responsibility to others as well. Charity and career can only be judged when one impedes on the other.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 11:56 AM

Must seriously disagree Ron....

if you take a paycheck it is not a benefit.

you can take a paycheck for a performance or concert

but one would hope a musicians life is not entirely dedicated to these.

the trouble is that when one asks others for money and you do not give yourself something is seriously wrong- one of the problems that we face as a country is the inability to just put our own individual needs and interests asside and go raise a barn together or help someone out. Now if everyone involved in putting on an event donated their goods and services then it would be a benefit.

If you need money then all you have created is a feel good RIP OFF!

Actually I think that the word benefit should be officially defined and a penalty assessed for improper use. When I put cares behind and open my wallet wider than it should be for a benefit I need it to be a total benefit. I am not discounting performance but it is way easier for a performer to perform for free than for others to sacrifice. When I pay for that ticket money comes out of the bank. When a singer sings its just sound waves!

CB


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 09:57 PM

#1 Peasant

You play the lute, don't you? Have a jester cap also?


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: GUEST,bflat
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 09:10 PM

The music is wonderful. I appreciate that Springsteen saw the value in it to challenge his traditional audience to hear what many call traditional music. I like it and wish him great success. Perhaps others will cross over to this rich and deep genre. I heard the interview by Ms.Block on NPR on 4/26 and you can too by going to the NPR.org website.

Ellen


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Pauline L
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 08:53 PM

Every piece of every performing art is created many times, first by the writer/composer and, again, each time the work is performed. Ansel Adams was a great pianist before he became a great photographer. When he wrote about photography, he often made analogies with music. In his will, he bequeathed many of his photos and negatives to the University of New Mexico with the stipulation that graduate students in photography use his negatives to make their own prints. He said that making a negative is like writing a score, and making a print is like performing the music. Knowing how the negative looks like will tell you a lot about how the print will look, but Ansel Adams believed in artistic creation in print-making. How much more so in music!

...you can never really plumb the entire truth of ideas in music.   That in essence is the power of music -- the fact that the art form is larger, deeper, and far more varied than any single person can divine in one lifetime -- and realizing it should give pause to any artist who starts to consider himself all-knowing. We are all simply steps in a continuing age-old tradition. When we do something that enhances that tradition, that makes it richer, purer, clearer -- then we have done what we were put here for. These are the words of Isaac Stern, one of the leading classical violinists of the twentieth century. If this is true of classical music, with its annotated, written scores, it must be so much more true of music in the folk tradition.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 08:02 PM

Sure, lets forget about the millions of dollars that will be coming into New Orleans due to these musicians performing there. Let sforget about all the fund raising they have done and the good they have done. Just because they take a paycheck they are criminals? To be shot?? Give me a break.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 07:49 PM

New Orleans needs grants for food, home and future not for musicians....anyone performing there on a grant shoud be ashamed!
Totally!

Musicians have the songs- festivals dont need money they just need gatherings of people and song. I think in that regard NO can take care of itself.

Rip those grants out of music and put them into food on the table and homes for people to live in.

Waht a disgrace!
Typical of the so called folk and so called music community! They aren't either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This shoud be the biggest wake up call to end commercialism in music that I can think of. Take all who have taken and line them up to be shot. Even the sound crews and port a potties people. There are no fast bucks in New orleans and should not ever be. And if it is only for the money then it really shoundn't be.

I am really sooooooo....tired of musicians being like coin operated parking meters....no money no song...that is what is totally wrong.


Cb


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 06:49 PM

PappaGator - I'll be watching for a review also - I'm sure Bruce will put on a great show. Have a good time and report back please.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 05:54 PM

As I have been reading this, the same holier than thou attitude of the so-called purists rears it's snobby head once again, whether it is Bruce Springsteen or The Kingston Trio.

It is what has divided the so-called folk music community 50 years ago and still today.

Purists! Our folk music is not about braying or having no teeth in your mouth. It is about the music and the passion of it. And it can sound much better on a $4000 guitar whether you like it or not!

And if people sell a million copies of their type of folk music, my hat is off to them, for they are truly successful folk singers who people want to hear.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 05:18 PM

Just heard a couple of cuts for the first time today; sounded like "folk" having a rousing good time playing and singing the music. I think the disk goes on my shopping list.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 11:59 AM

Dick, I certainly realize that. The question is that this CD is a tribute of sorts to Seeger and his music. If Seeger is happy with the way his music was treated, that is the opinion that counts.

By the way, there will be a netcast of the New Orleans Jazz festival tomorrow afternoon. Go the the NO Jazz fest website for information.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Ernest
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 11:06 AM

PoppaGator, I envy you ;0)

Please tell us about the concert!

Best wishes
Ernest


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: CapriUni
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 11:03 AM

Hmmm... I may have to get this set, and introduce my aide, Audrey, to it.

On a recent trip from Virginia to New York, we were listening to the music she's collected on her ipod. There was a wide range -- all styles of rock, classical, jazz, spoken word, and yes, folk... But it was more of that "hokie folkie," to my ear, at least. She only recently discovered a version of "Froggie went a-courtin'" from a library CD of 18th C. music, and likes the song, but not the fluty voice of the female singer. I think I can be fairly confident that she wouldn't have that problem with Springsteen.

I think she'd really like this one (and I would, too).

Also, as she and her family are on the other end of the spectrum, politically, from Seeger, I have a feeling she's not as familiar with his music as I am. Yes, Seeger's main message is the joy of music (anyone who's seen his performance of Abiyoyo knows that), but politcal labels sometimes get in the way...


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 10:53 AM

"the one person whose opinion really counts is Pete's"
Huh?
The function of a pop singer, whether he be Springsteen or Seeger, is o be popular.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 10:48 AM

When Springsteen recorded this album, it was strictly a studio effort; the musicians he assembled were never intended to stick together for a tour, or even for a single live performance.

Since then, when a grant from Shell Oil made it possible for the New Orleans Jazz and Heritiage Foundation to present their festival in 2006 despite the effects of Hurricane Katrina and the subsequent levee failures ~ and since Bruce accepted an invitation to perform ~ the Seeger Sessions Band was reassembled and rehearsed for a one-time appearance, closing out the big stage tomorrow afternoon (Sunday 4/30/06, 5:30 to 7 pm).

I've been holding off on purchasing the album, so that the first time I hear this material will be live and in person. Can't wait!

As far as all the above controversy is concerned, I find many of the negative feelings that have been expressed to be sadly shallow ~ most notably, the sneering condemnation of Bruce's effort as "pure performance," as though competant presentation of music were somehow disreputable. For my taste, a piece of music is memorable only when it is both deeply and genuinely felt and skillfully performed. So far, Mr. Springsteen has rarely disappointed me or fallen short of my standards, and I certainly expect this newest project to meet and exceed the quality of everything he has done so far.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:50 PM

Art, I never said that Pete wasn't political, but rather that was not the point Springsteen was making with this CD.   Yes, Pete was a SOCIAL singer, and if ANYONE thinks that Pete was not trying to teach people that singing is a joy then they are wrong. No one is denying his politics or his social causes, but I think many have forgotten his work in perpetuating folk music and the tradition of singing.

As I said in the very first post, I knew that the "folk elders" among us would have problems with this recording. There is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone will get it.   The one person whose opinion really counts is Pete's, and it is my understanding that he enjoys what Springsteen did.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:36 PM

Frank, You are totally correct. Dizzy hit the nail on the head! And "No Pete, no me!" is my story all the way.

Ron, To my way of seeing this, to say that Pete was a a "political singer" is so far off the damn mark that it comes perilously close to being completely misleading in that it mis-educates all the generations out there that have no clue about what went down.

Pete was a social singer! ---------------- The positions taken were about inclusion, not exclusion. They pushed for the betterment of the human condition. Pie in the sky was none of it. It was here-and-now sharing the proceeds, and opening eyes to the light of rhetorical enlightenments that said, "Yes, if we can just get together, we can show the truth of it!" Political compromises and smoke-filled-rooms, with bribes paid and debts owed and redeemed, had little to do with it. It was simply wrong to keep someone in virtual chains because their skin was a different color. 'WE Shall Overcome' wasn't just a song. It was what happened.

It was a clear case of what Pete felt was right and wrong. It was ethics to the enth degree. You couldn't hear the messages in his songs and not say to yourself, deep inside, those are pretty much true things that the man is saying. Those are rules of the road-less-traveled that I can live by! And, by God, or whatever, I will strive to incorporate some of those humane ways of seeing this world we are in even if they are, right at this moment, only ideals, and sometimes not seen as terribly practical. -- In time, they may become parts of hearts and minds---and we will be better for it!

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Richard Brandenburg
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:36 PM

Which was my point, too, GUEST, TJ. He's not doing what Seeger does, clearly; he's a big old rock star. If Springsteen tried to adapt his act to some Pete-like populist thing, he'd have a distinct difficulty in getting us to suspend our disbelief. It remains for some other, more folk-based performer to "infuse the music with the lifeway", to paraphrase #1 PEASANT.

But then it calls to mind the noble experiment that Billy Bragg and Wilco tried in the "Mermaid Avenue" recordings of Woody Guthrie's lyrics set to contempo-sounding music. Bragg, at least, is arguably closer to the notion of the Woody-like singer than Bruce is to Pete... but I find it unlistenable, and sure don't hear Woody in there. I hear his words under a post-modern blanket of other folks sounds and ways of singing.

Or Ani De Franco hanging out with Utah Phillips; same deal, diferent disc. Give me Utah Phillips straight, please.

At any rate, who could convey Pete's "lifeway"; his earnestness, and his way of being in the music, who didn't come from Pete's context? Not Bruce. I'm not sure that was his job in the project.

But if it points a few people toward Pete, and Pete's sources, then good.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: GUEST,TJ
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:25 PM

Again: millions of people -- many of them a lot younger than what I'm guessing is the average age of folks here -- who would not have otherwise done so will now discover these old songs, and by extension become aware of who Pete Seeger is.

To me, that's a very good thing.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 08:31 PM

in terms of process you are comparing apples and oranges- there is nothing inviting or natural or at home to the blaring of springsteens style. I don't think I ever heard Pete Seeger come across so loud-so over powering so in your face. So performance! I just heard Jacobs Ladder- yes sound technicians can do almost anything from a farmhouse room but it sounded like a 100 piece gospel choir and 50 musicians- nothing like the nurturing sound of an even high energy seeger performance. We need both but the music really does need to get infused with the lifeway not just with a stage and a cd.

CB


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 06:44 PM

"Let us have a toast to Springsteen for doing something and to the person who does a proper tribute to the seeger process someday too!"

I'm sorry you don't see it, but Springsteen DID come up with the proper tribute to the Seeger PROCESS in this album. Listen to what Pete talk and then it should become clear.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 06:18 PM

How has Springsteen contributed to remembering or tribute to

democratization of the singing process

a great line!

I dont think so
Francy right on the mark- way too performance
not enough democratization of the process.

Yes still folk maybe.....

For Seeger the process was so important and it needs a tribute record.
The way of delivery. Yes constantly evolving songs but no stage. And I don't care if it was recorded in a farmhouse room it does not sound like pete seeger around any fireplace.....way too over produced to be a tribute to the democratization of the process.

great term...

Would write more but Carlo rossi is waiting for me on the front porch in the bright sun of a setting wondrous not too hot or wet spring day.

Let us have a toast to Springsteen for doing something and to the person who does a proper tribute to the seeger process someday too!
And may that process steer clear of the shoals of commercialism, age set marketing and political stigmas.....put your car in the folk drive and roll..

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Francy
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:49 PM

I'm sorry; but considering this a work of art? Come on....It is pure Springsteen and the words & "original" music come second......He'll be successful with this cd and his ego will get a boost.....But please, don't use the word art on this CD I have listened to it a half a dozoen times already and wouldn't recommend this to any one who loves folk music.....this is for springsteen rockers and that's it....If I hadn't heard Mrs McGrath by Pete and others many, many times, I would never understand the lyrics and meaning of this song from the springsteen cut. Frank of Toledo


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:19 PM

Only a handful really did that. the rest are content with Peter, Paul, and Mary and do not need all the funk that goes with the original.

smooth harmonies and fine musicianship trumps that.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Richard Brandenburg
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:18 PM

I have a feeling that some kid will soon show up at a jam somewhere, and sing "My Oklahoma Home" learned obviously from this new Bruce version. And that's where some of the ideas being discussed here will play themselves out. After the "O Brother Where Art Thou" wave, there were singers showing up places who had either learned the song from the the soundtrack recording or from the "source" recording, and it was clear that the commercial popularity of the soundtrack had created a new interest in the songs themselves. If Bruce can help direct more singers to traditional and folk material as a meaningful social event, that's great.   

My point being that what we think about the process is one thing, and the activity of the process is something else - and where the music really lives.

There are a few of Pete's Rainbow Quest videos on YouTube, (www.youtube.com) and on one of the shows, just before someone's performance, he turns to the camera and says something like, "You people at home can sing right along with us! We're here on TV, but these songs are for everybody to sing, and if we can do it, why, you can do it too!" By breaking the fourth wall in addressing the camera and talking to the audience, Pete subtracted even the glamourizing event of the television show from the music-making process.   

Apart from his overt organizing work around particular causes, Pete's relentless democratization of the singing process is where I think his "political" message has had the most traction, and where he was most effectively "subversive". His concerts have always been sing-alongs, and one of his great gifts, I would say, is not his banjo or guitar playing; it's that he applied his earnest vision of folk music in such a way that a hall full of us were throwing back our heads, with smiles on our faces, singing, "Bye bye, Rosieanna" - helping us to feel for a moment unashamed and un-selfconscious. Anybody that can do that with a room full of us white people has subverted something somewhere...

Bruce can be a similar sort of galvanizer, in his own way, and I'm glad that this is what he's doing with his current work. Look forward to hearing it.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:15 PM

I don't know if it was said before in this thread - but to my way of thinking this CD wasn't made for any of us. It's real value is that a lot of folks who would never think of buying a "folk" recording will get this - and then go looking for the source material. The same way some of us heard Peter Paul and Mary singing "If I Had My Way" and then discovered Rev Gary Davis.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:09 PM

I think there are some very serious songs on here as well such as We Shall Overcome, Jacobs Ladder and Mrs. McGrath (which could be interpreted as a political song.)   I have used the word "fun" in my comments, and that is my reaction, but I do think this is a serious work of art too.

As for politics, let the music speak for itself! You don't have to preach to make a point.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 04:54 PM

I like the CD. It seems like Springsteen and his people had a lot of fun with the music; and the CD is fun to listen to, and fun to sing along with. The video partion of the disc is good, too.

I have to say that I was hoping for more than just "fun." In the past, Springsteen has done some very thoughtful interpretations of traditional and "folk scare" songs, especially on the Folkways: A Vision Shared album. His own stuff on his Nebraska album is very good, too. So, I don't blame Springsteen for having fun on this CD, but I was really hoping to hear his serious side, too.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 04:45 PM

I agree with ron and even Frank Hamilton.

what I want to see Bruce accomplish is the sheer joy of the music, completely with zero politics to it.

Seeger's politics got in the way of his musicianship. Bruce is also political, but it seems like no one has ever held that against him.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 04:05 PM

"Springsteen projects the music as entertainment Seeger as oral tradition"
I can't agree with that assumption or your definition of "updating" and "oral process".   You say that Seeger's style doesn't need updating, yet he updated the songs to begin with! Why would it be okay for him to do it but wrong for Springsteen?

I guess we will just have to disagree Conrad. I respect your opinion but I feel it compartmentalizes the music and the tradition.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 04:02 PM

Ok now look what you have done!
I was going to type words but now I will go out to find my friend carlo rossi and a large jug of Piasanno - get out the harmonium and the tin whistles and go out and engage in music....

Actually the grand spring weather made me do it.
I promise however, not to stray from my salad diet. (you see according to the quack I should be eating only air drinking water and walking all day.....well I shall turn wine into water- easy enough and a can of veggie beans into air....no trouble....and I shall wander around the yard....that should do it...

More later!

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 03:58 PM

A piece of music and a person.

The person passivly listens because it is age appropriate-just ask any teenager why they dont listen to other forms of music-even though they have never heard them they will tell you that is not their music

Same piece of music another person-

Music is presented as part of life, the listener listens to learn the music regardless of age of the person or music the music is passed on by direct performance to all generations.

Still folk music but the presentation context is vastly different and the long term results will also be.

There is no oral process when there is no oral. Springsteen projects the music as entertainment Seeger as oral tradition- active part of life all ages round the fire.

Its how it is presented. Yes always variation and change. Engagement with the music comes however at different levels and the level of engagement will determine the strength of the tradition.

Sort of why I liked Seegers style better-doesnt need updating just wider acceptance.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 03:42 PM

Conrad, your point about "age set music" makes a supposition that "folk" music fits that description. I would argue that it does not.

If you look up the definition of "folk" music in American Heritage you will find
"1. Music originating among the common people of a nation or region and spread about or passed down orally, often with considerable variation.
2. Contemporary music in the style of traditional folk music. "

While #2 is certainly a mine field for arguements, I think that #1 says a lot about the style. What Springsteen AND Seeger have done is to pass the music (orally if we consider modern recordings to be a mode of transmission) and they have introduced variables.

The music that many people relate to when you mention "folk" is either traditional field recordings or music that grew out of the Revival period of the 1950's - 1960's. I would agree that these styles are "age set".   People have seen the beauty of these styles and are comfortable listening to and creating music in that style.

If you really look at what Seeger and now Springsteen have show us, it is the joy of creating music. This is not "translating", it is merely an extension of the oral process. In modern terms, we are witnessing how variations are created. Sure there is a commercial vent to it, but if you can get beyond that you will see what is being accomplished.

Folk music is a tool. When I go to a musuem, I can see a painting that was done 100 years ago and appreciate it for the beauty. It is something that makes me happy and I learn from. If I had any artistic skills, I might try to replicate the style in my own work.    Music is an art. I think it is important to honor the original style, but also to allow the freedom for the song to continue to speak. This is not "translating", it is allowing the freedom that is inherent in the form to continue to grow. THAT is the beauty of folk music.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 02:55 PM

Anybody remember an album called "Folk Music for People Who Hate Folk Music"?


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 02:47 PM

Yes there is a difference between the early conservatives doing roots research and those who popularized the content. Working on transmitting and developing what one might call a cultural core music or for my poor old analogy tree trunk....

Some maintain that in order for musical content to be transferred to another generation it must be transformed to be accepted. The concept of age set music however, means that the age set is stuck in the same transmission gear for life. Gradually the branch thins at the top-does not get stronger-they die out and you are left with oldies stations and short occasional revivals. Transforming a content so it fits into the heads of a generation- age set group helps but it is not long term.

I would consider Springsteen's work a transformation while Seeger looks toward adding another -perhaps one would call it participatory gear on to the transmission.

Not exactly a clone more like a replenishing source- a trunk not just endless branches which fall away. The cultural core music and the means to maintain it-without money for cds, tickets, or transmissions. When one travels to a foreign culture one is struck by the shared core music. The songs everyone knows through generations. The market and age set driven world approach tends to create and discard branches rather than propigate a living tradition which no matter how it gets cut back can still grow again in the same form maintaining the inventory. I think we should consider that people are quite able to maintain all the gears on their cultural transmissions and keep them in use. The age set music and its presentation style is just one gear.

Interesting comment about Springsteen's age- I am 53 myself.....one finds out that musicians recognize bying power. They may not be in the teenage top ten but Springsteen is in sync with the age set that has perhaps the second largest block of money to spend (everyone but me of course-beer should be free....) I noticed this when local musicians started to play covers of songs done originally by relativly obscure artists. These languished in the back corners until it was perceived that my generation could start buying recordings again...with our supposed new found prosperity. Then they were everywhere. The generational age set echo effect. This is why when you go to shopping malls at christmas you hear the music of our parents. Now grandparents to our children- when else in public do you hear Bing Crosby- Dean Martin for gods sake.....Ah!~ yes....they are being played as background for the older generation out buying stuff for the grandkids! I guess someday horrors, when my daughter is a grandparent the malls will be playing the White stripe's christmas cd which of course they will eventually make....that is if christmas survives that long. To my daughters credit she growing up in a houshold where there is an American traditional and anglo Irish core tradition has in addition to that central gear one for classical especially Bach....Jazz Tom Waits- and recently she has re-discovered Dylan....

So translating may not be a strong enough solution. I think Seeger stresses cross generational participation- I have been avoiding the use of the term but more organic less transitory.....

Thoughts writ quick....see what you can do with them....I am off back to me canny toon.....at least through the keyboard....

CB


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 01:51 PM

"Any political line different from that held by the previous age set would have worked."

I think not. It is very obvious that the Left embraced folk music and made it popular.   However, there was also a strong conservative attitude in the early days that became overshadowed. Bascom Lamar Lunsford, who played a role in the popularizing of folk festivals and the music in the 1930's, was VERY conservative.   Alan Lomax's father John was also a strong conservative. If you go back to the 1920s and 30s where the seeds of the folk revival were planted, you will find a strong conservative element that was interested in re-discovering the roots of the culture. The changes in attitude that took place post war were a reaction to a very conservative time.

"Springsteen has transformed the music and style into that which can pass into the minds of the current age set as a performance style but in discarding seegers more culturally integrated style has he just accomidated the songs into the age set or has he propigated a new tree growing parallel to the contemporary age set hit parade of the moment? "

That is a mouthful! :) I think you miss the point when you talk about either Springsteen or Seeger "accomodating" the style to fit an age. Naturally every musician should be using the music to fit their vision, which is based on many factors.   Springsteen is in his 50's - he is not a Top 40 artist anymore. While he is a success, he basically speaks to his own generation.

Conrad, I don't think the tree analogy is appropriate when describing music,art or culture. When you plant a seed, you know what it will look like when it sprouts and grows. Sure the branches may not grow in the direction you think, but you will have an idea of how that tree will look when mature.   You can't do that with folk music. The point that Seeger and Springsteen made is that folk music is a tool which you use to make your own art. How you shape it will be up to you.   Yes, we will always have the original model to get inspiration from, and we can copy it if we like, but we will never create a true clone.   It is living in the sense that it can evolve.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 01:18 PM

Politics- not the selling of folk music.

Yes- Seeger and the rest captured a generation- but it was there to be captured. Ripe for change one might say. Any political line different from that held by the previous age set would have worked.

My parents for example would not have a Seeger recording in the house because of where he stood politically-or the perception of his politics.

It can work with the age set you have captured but tends to interfere with the timelessness.

To a certain extent perhaps folk music became overly preached. Lining out songs for group sing-a longs, you need to sing this music because it is old, or we all have to be one political family....etc...

Was the change that followed Seeger's folk a change toward less dydactic musical inspiration-Rock Music....I keep hearing Dylan's comment....something like "I never really wanted to lead a movement...just make music...." The next age set defines its budding off point with reflection on the earlier and need to dress differently and sing differently.

Trouble with budding off into age set preferences is that one gets a tree with long thin branches each from a different bud not a trunk.
Casting asside and moving on like a sycamore dropping its branches. For true propigation rather than budding one needs to propigate a culture set rather than an age set. One of these would probably look like the Geordie Culture Set of Songs existing parallel with other forms in the minds of the people-I have observed the traditional trunk of the Geordie tree just as alive in Newcastle as parallel to Rock and Roll-just as popular but not age set so much as alternative gears on a car's transmission. A parallel neighbor trunk where the songs are maintained. With the age set the music is maintained only as long as the limb-the carriers are alive. Some 50s music is played on oldies stations but not tuned in to by many as the age set has passed.

Springsteen has transformed the music and style into that which can pass into the minds of the current age set as a performance style but in discarding seegers more culturally integrated style has he just accomidated the songs into the age set or has he propigated a new tree growing parallel to the contemporary age set hit parade of the moment? I think -Seeger tried to present music more as lifeway than commercial commodity. There is significan value in this and if it returns it will be with a Seegeresque style as well as with the content of the songs.

Some thoughts.....

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 12:53 PM

Conrad,

If it wasn't for the "politicization" of folk music as you call it, you would never know about folk music. Pete was a one-man publicity agent for folk music in this country and without his popularity and magnetism, you wouldn't even know folk music existed. Alan Lomax, the same thing. Alan might have even coined the term "folk singer".
Many important folklorists started their careers as political people such as Ken Goldstein and Archie Green.

The top of the charts of the Kingston Trio or the Weavers or Peter Paul and Mary can be directly attributed to the work of Pete Seeger.
Without him, the popularity during the Folk Scare wouldn't have happened. Bruce has the magnamimous humility to acknowledge this as well.

Pete has prospered in a way that is far more important than just making money at it. Actually the idea that he was limited by his politics is silly. It was his politics than convinced so many young people on college campuses that Pete has something valid to say and gave rise to the almost religious enthusiam toward what is known as folk music today.

In jazz, Dizzy Gillespie said, "No Louis, no me," In terms of the popularity of folk music, "No Pete, no popularity of folk music". If you follow Pete's career you will find that this is the case.

Putting folk music on the charts is like capitalizing on the air we breathe. Folk music belongs to every country and it took Pete to show us that.

Folk music goes on regardless of whether it hits the charts or not.

Frank Hamilton


In a way this is the problem with seegers efforts. Yes people do enjoy him his playing and the songs today but he really has not been as widely popular outside of his moment in time at the top of the charts. I credit this failure to the over politicization of folk music. Red scare was an important factor and limited the growth of the music of liberals and social thinkers.....perhaps with less politics we would have seen it prosper a bit more.
In a way this is the problem with seegers efforts. Yes people do enjoy him his playing and the songs today but he really has not been as widely popular outside of his moment in time at the top of the charts. I credit this failure to the over politicization of folk music. Red scare was an important factor and limited the growth of the music of liberals and social thinkers.....perhaps with less politics we would have seen it prosper a bit more.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:03 AM

Yes, I bought twelve copies of the CD yesterday at Best Buy consumer electronics in Amherst, New York. That's near Buffalo. They are charging only $11.99 each plus NY State sales tax. That's a whole lot of Bruce for not much money.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Pauline L
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 01:34 AM

Janice in NJ, you're lucky you have it already. I can't wait for mine. Dod you really buy a dozen copies?


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 04:10 PM

Just bought a dozen copies this morning. Opened one up and already listened to it three times. The rest will make fine gifts. What a fantastic CD!!! I am so happy The Boss included My Oklahoma Home. This song by Bill Cunningham and his better known sister Agnes "Sis" Cunningham is a gem that rivals the best of Woody Guthrie's Dust Bowl Ballads. I don't know if Pete Seeger ever recorded it, although I know that Sis did when she was in her 80s. I assume that Pete sang it with Sis when the two of them were in the Almanac Singers along with Woody, Lee Hays, and others. I am only sorry that Sis passed away two years ago. She would have loved this CD. Bless your New Jersey soul, Mr. Springsteen!


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 01:40 PM

That is what I was referring to- commercial career

Dissenting voices- no problem with that.

There will aways be a chicken and egg argument about how change happens. I see the artists who became popular with seeger in folk music as recognizing change rather than making it.

You can find some of this in the Dylan autobiography. An age set without a music. Every so often an age set buds off its parent root. Capturing it is an interesting skill. Lots of things go into the production of the new bud. Some of them relate to age and youthful desire for change and rebellion. Others relate to politics and oppositions. Then it is all packaged by commercial interests which hang around until the market is saturated at which time they add their own preasure to form a new bud.

Interesting process. As the world moved on past Seeger I think part of the change related to a need for less politics, fewer lessons and more sensual or perhaps more mindless music. The turn from being leaders of movements- this turns up in the Dylan Autobiography- he never wanted to lead anyone to anything and disliked the result.....(If you can believe him....) The move is from group social solidarity and preservation of tradition and shared politics to more of an individual oriented music with more mass appeal....

just some thoughts....

Yes if Springsteen says he was influenced by Seeger that is a positive thing and a tribute. I just think that so much of Seeger's achievement was through his presentation style that it is hard to see it neglected.

Seeger turns up from time to time on videos and programs about other folks....I think the Dylan television program has him in it and also the clancy brothers documentary-an important piece for understanding how the generation was captured by a group of people standing on roughly the same plot of ground in New York City. Maybe they are aliens beaming down...

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 01:19 PM

"Its the tribute sort of expectation"

Of course everyone has their individual expectations, but ultimately it is the artists choice. How we perceive the project depends on our own values and choices.   

I truly believe that Springsteen honored Seeger by following the spirit of Pete's teachings of folk music. Pete has always wanted others to make music. His concerts were meant to be participatory. Springsteen "gets it".

" but Seeger was and is intensly political-just a part of his character- nothing wrong with that. But not helpful as the popular opinions change."

I really don't agree with that at all. You need a voice of dissent. Seeger and his music helped galvanize change in this country. Other voices will be there to do it in the future.   Having opinions may not have helped his "commercial" career, but that really wasn't his point.


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 01:05 PM

There are many dimensions to the springsteen effort.

What does he pay tribute to?

Yes! the songs that really do need more contempoary exposure. And that Seeger first brought them out.

Does Springsteen pay tribute to the manner and style which Seeger used to record sing and perform- no! The style is Springsteen. A bit loud.

Is there anything wrong with that? No! Springsteen can be as Springsteen as he wants that is fine.

Is it being a purist to have hoped that Springsteen might have come a bit closer to the style of performance of Seeger- I dont think so.
Its the tribute sort of expectation....


I just value the Seeger style- lots of energy but yet comforting and more home style. Given two versions I would choose the Seeger one for that fact- not because one has to set performance style in stone.

I saw Seeger perform at the Takoma Park Folk Festivals outside of DC several times. The man was never far from his politics. These songs might not be too political but Seeger was and is intensly political-just a part of his character- nothing wrong with that. But not helpful as the popular opinions change.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: GUEST,mrs punkfolkroker
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 12:48 PM

I'd anticipate some sort of positive follow up reissue program for Seeger origional recordings
on the back of this Springsteen project..


Record lables are predictable enough where theres a short term potential for £££££££££££££££$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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Subject: RE: Springsteen - The Seeger Sessions
From: Maryrrf
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 12:30 PM

It would be great if Bruce Springsteen inspires a younger generation to go "back to the source" and investigate folk music more fully, just like many of us older folks did back in the sixties and seventies. Some folks enjoyed folk music when it was popular and then went with the trend when other styles of music became fashionable, others were inspired to dig deeper into the roots of folk music.


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