BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:58 PM

There's plenty of kinky and lascivious-sounding stuff in the Bible. Just depends in which part, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Haruo
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:55 PM

The Bible says that King Cyrus of Persia was the Messiah, or Christ:

Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; (Isaiah 45:1)

FWIW - and am I the only one who thinks the part beginning "I will loose the loins of kings" sounds, um, potentially kinky or lascivious or something?

Haruo
a Christian for a' that

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:48 PM

Whew!

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:47 PM

Just checkin' to see who's awake out there . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:35 PM

It was on Nov 22, 1963. That is not 53 years ago. It's about 42 and a half years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:18 PM

Good God(s)! The Kennedy assassination was 53 years ago? No wonder I feel old!

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:16 PM

I can readily imagine that a pretty face can serve as an excuse to launch a thousand ships....

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:15 PM

TFTLATS

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:11 PM

What???

You don't believe there is face that could have sailed a thousand ships?

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:57 PM

Keriste: Try to prove something about the Kennedy assassination just 53 years ago--and that was on National TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:56 PM

As far as "proof" goes, Bill, I very much doubt we are going to find any. Imagine trying to prove things about any person who lived 2,000 years ago! It's not an easy proposition. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:49 PM

hey...what is this, Little Hawk? An agreement? *grin* I 'tend' to believe that there was a historical character, also....but that is as trivial as was Helen of Troy before they found Troy. Now what? It still proves little about the details of the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:42 PM

Well, Bill, "belief", by definition is just that...belief. It is not knowledge. You have to KNOW something to know it, but you can believe anything you want. Believing is not necessarily knowing...but knowing IS believing. ;-)

I tend to believe that Jesus really existed. I don't know it. I think it's rather probable, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:37 PM

*reading thru hurriedly....and I see this from Sori:

"I do not believe the man Christians call Jesus, or Joshua, was an actual person."

Then this: "I believe we are all divine cosmic beings, having a human, earthly experience."

Mercy, Sori! There IS some evidence that some real person is the source of those stories, whether you believe the metaphysical parts or not..(I don't)...but then you casually state that you DO believe something that there could be no possible evidence for.

I can comprehend how a person can get status and a following, but I cannot, (and I suspect YOU cannot) explain exactly what a "...divine cosmic being...." is. much less how 'it' could have ".. a human, earthly experience."

   Just goes to show that most 'belief' is just a matter of mood, orientation and whim, rather than being based ON any real evidence...

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:06 PM

"So far it's been Little Hawk, Big Mick, and you."

Would you be kind enough to explain how you think I have attacked you?

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:59 PM

How do you define the word "God", Sori? (I'd like to know.) I don't mean how do you define someone else's version of God, I mean how would YOU define "God"? What would you regard as an accurate definition?

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:56 PM

Think Salman Rushdie and the Clash version of 'I Fought the Law' to get some idea of how us nontheist freethinkers feel when we try and put a toe in the water to talk with theists, especially these days when even the religious believers are scared of their religious brethren, be they Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh...

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:53 PM

One of the most common questions that theists ask nontheists is "Why don't you believe in my god?". The answer is that we simply do not see any valid reason for holding such a belief. In order to rationally believe any claim, one must first have credible evidence. There is, however, no credible evidence for the existence of a god. So nontheists don't believe in gods for the same reason that theists don't believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, or the gods of other religions.

I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than monotheists do. :)

When theists understand why they dismiss all the other possible gods and goddesses, then and only then will they understand why I freely choose not to believe in their god(s)/goddess(es).

A misconception held by many theists is that nonbelievers reject religion because they do not understand it. Typically, nonbelievers understand the dominate religion of their culture quite well, often better than many of the believers. For example, here in the USA, where most religionists are Christians, many nontheists are former Christians who have examined the Christian religion carefully and rejected it as mythical. It is precisely because the former Christian was open-minded enough to question and honestly seek answers that he or she ended up rejecting Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:46 PM

In fact, the newer the material is, generally speaking, the better I like it. It hasn't had time yet to ossify. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:45 PM

Thank you, thank you, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:45 PM

The best thing I have read on this thread is that Jesus was meant to be a role model. The same can be said of any philosopher/God/king rolled into one. Everyone needs positive role models. Some need it more than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:38 PM

ossified

Damn good word that!

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:36 PM

Oh, I'm all for new and fresh viewpoints on the subject, Sori. No problem about that. I've read some great stuff lately too, stuff that does not derive from the old religious traditions at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:33 PM

Right, so I'm as guilty as the next now for hijacking the thread & making it about personalities contributing.

Now, back to the topic at hand.

One of the best things about 'Seven Life Lessons of Chaos' I mentioned above, is it allows us ordinary folk a way to appreciate chaos theory in lay terms, and helps us realize how chaos is the glue to the interconnectedness of all things, that allows us to go with the flow of events, to unlock creativity through heightened tolerance for ambiguity and ambivalence, to pay attention to subtlety, and finally, to act according to one's internal rhythms with integrity.

That's a LOT to accomplish with one teeny, tiny book. As you read it (if your mind is open, that is) it becomes clear that the ossification of religious ideology is what has been holding us back. We need something genuine and real that gives OUR lives meaning. Religion hasn't been able to deliver on that score for most people on the planet for the better part of two centuries now.

And with all due respect Little Hawk, switching hitters from west to east hasn't made any difference. Ossified religious ideologies are ossified religious ideologies, no matter where they originate from in a post-religious world.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:24 PM

Well, no, the reason I said it, Clinton, was not exclusively because of that. No, I said it because of the very large number of times you log onto a thread just for the sheer joy of letting other people know that you don't care about what they care about! ;-)

Raptor has noted this too. In fact, it was he who first drew it to my attention when we were discussing the Clinton Hammond Fan Club T-shirt idea he had awhile back.

He thinks it's funny! He waits with anticipation for the next time you will care enough to bother to let us all know just how much you don't care.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:10 PM

"Keriste on a crutch: who do you think is attacking you?"

So far it's been Little Hawk, Big Mick, and you.

Thanks for the suggestion Little Hawk. I'll see what I can find about him in my books.

I don't much care for atheism. Never looked like anything except oppositional defiance disorder to me. Much too rigid an ideology for my tastes.

'The Pagan Christ' is by an Anglican guy, but what the hell. Anglicans are practically Catholic anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:09 PM

"The list of things that do matter to you, seems to be very small..."
It only seems that way to you LH, because you and your blatherskite are part of what I do not care about.....

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:05 PM

Ah. I see. I've read very little material from the Catholic vein. My interests ran more to the Eastern religions, some mystical stuff about Chrisitianity, and the North American Native religions. I started out the whole process in my teens as a 100% atheist, but that changed after awhile.

You might find Sri Aurobindo interesting. He was a man of absolutely enormous intellect and education. He's as comfortable with science as with spirituality, and he also was a confirmed atheist in his youth.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:01 PM

No Little Hawk, I haven't. Only studied comparative myth & folklore. My own interests still lean heavily in the Catholic vein of writers, to science and spirituality, and post-religious freethought.

I'm of the Christ as 'in man' school, not Christ 'was man'.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:00 PM

The list of things that do matter to you, Clinton, seems to be very small... ;-)

(at least when it comes to anything anyone else cares about)

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:56 PM

It doesn't really matter to me if you are or aren't Don......

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:55 PM

"There is a whole cosmic universe out there, but it ain't owned and operated by any human invented deities."

Absolutely. Agreed. The deeper levels of many religious teachings make that quite clear too. Ever read anything by Sri Aurobindo?

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:55 PM

But, Clinton, who said I'm a believer?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:52 PM

We will never be liberated or enlightened or redeemed or saved or whatever it is you seek in being a religious believer--as long as we keep looking to the violent past of religious history for the answer.

There is a whole cosmic universe out there, but it ain't owned and operated by any human invented deities.

Try reading 'Turbulent Mirror' and 'Seven Life Lessons of Chaos' and you might get some sense of the connection between science and spiritual yearning that will propel us forward into the future the majority of humans will experience on this planet, rather than constantly dragging humanity kicking and screaming back into the ruins of the relatively short, historic, and prehistoric past we have been busily screwing up with religion and superstition, for the sole beneift of a handful the religious feudal and corporate masters.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:52 PM

"You lump all Christians together as doing the things you suggest."

One must employ generalities when one is speaking in general....

And well, if you show me where I said that ALL X-tians did any of the things I listed....

Cause I never said that did I???

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:50 PM

There have been so many Ramas by now, Sori, that to list them all would be a fruitless project. Hell, I even know a couple of ordinary people right now with "Rama" or "Ram" in their name. ;-)

I know a fellow named Ram Das (not the famous one). He's a superb yoga practitioner down in Trinidad. I know another one, a Mr Ram, who runs a gas station near here. I know another one in Toronto. They're all over the place.

It's aggressive, prosyletizing, fanatical people who don't leave other people alone. Some of them are religious, some are atheists, some are cultists, and they all amount to the same thing...a great big pain in the butt.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:49 PM

"The whole idea of the virgin birth ascribed to Jesus was what amounted to a piece of "boilerplate."

There's good evidence that the whole thing is, as you put it, boilerplate.... Now if you wish ot believe such, that's up to you and no one else.... But if you wish to try to claim that your boilerplate is historical fact, then well, you're going to have to provide some pretty compelling evidence....

Currently there isn't a single shred of such evidence....

If you don't need evidence to be a believer, bully for you....

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:48 PM

Therein lies the problem, Clinton. You lump all Christians together as doing the things you suggest. It ain't so, bro. It is why the basic premise of the thread is bogus. This isn't at all what Matriot Mama Sori says it is. It is an attempt to attack something and cloak in the "intellectual" act s/he is so well known for.

It ain't paranoia when its true.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:47 PM

"I'll leave the job of attacking others to the perpetually paranoid posters of Mudcat, who have found their way to this thread and now seek to piss all over the messenger by making specious claims about my identity or that I am merely posting to attack Christians."

Keriste on a crutch: who do you think is attacking you?

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:41 PM

Yaeh, but you didn't live through the 1960s, Clinton.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:41 PM

Religion has NEVER left us alone!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:41 PM

"Your religion is valueless if you treat it like a buffet, picking and choosing which of the doctrines you will and won't follow...."

True, Clinton. But you have to take into consideration who came up with which doctrine. And why. There are certain aspects of Christianity that most people these days assume are essential to the religion and were from the start. But not so. The whole idea of the virgin birth ascribed to Jesus was what amounted to a piece of "boilerplate." As my pastor friend said, it was a standard part of the story-telling surrounding religious figures at the time, and back then most people understood that these frills were pure hype. But not so today (where did we lose our smarts about this kind of thing?). The earlier texts said that Mary was "young woman," which, later on, got translated—whether as an unintentional mistake or deliberately, who knows?—but later religious leaders, trying to pre-empt the pagan virgin cults that existed at the time, picked it up and ran with it.

Is the virgin birth of Jesus an essential tenet of the Christian religion? No. It undoubtedly is to the fundamentalists, but they're—well, I'll just shut up for now.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:39 PM

"why folks have this need to attack Christianity to the exclusion of others"
Who's excluding others?


"What is it to you what I believe? "

Absolutely nothing at all... but when you want the myths of those beliefs to be taught as science... or you wish to use those beliefs as the basis to make laws that interfere with what I can or cannot do in the privacy of my own home with another consenting adult....   Or when you feel the need to inflict your beliefs on children who do not have the antibodies necessary to fight off such an infection.... Or that you are justified in bilking poor, lonely or ignorant people out of their hard earned money....

Then I have an issue with what you believe


"to believe that Jesus was a real person?"
Believe what you want... it won't make it fact.... I can close my eyes and believe that I can hover all I want.... or that I can walk on water.... It won't make it so....

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:38 PM

All I attempted to do with this thread, BTW, was change the context of the discussion from the Julius Caesar/Jesus thread for the purpose of taking a new track.

I didn't attack anyone. I didn't demean anyone or anyone's religion. I merely stated my beliefs.

I'll leave the job of attacking others to the perpetually paranoid posters of Mudcat, who have found their way to this thread and now seek to piss all over the messenger by making specious claims about my identity or that I am merely posting to attack Christians.

This thread sprang from a related thread about Christianity. That shouldn't be all that difficult to suss out, now should it?

Seems some of you need to chill.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:33 PM

Well, Sori, even if you convince someone here that Jesus never existed and that Christianity is a trumped-up thing, etc., you'll be busy for the rest of your life workin' on the other 2,000,000,000 Christians kickin' around this ol' globe.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:28 PM

Not sure what put that bee in your bonnet, Little Hawk. I apologize if it is something I said.

BTW, 'rama' in Hindi simply means 'a deified hero worshiped as an incarnation of Vishnu'. Ramakrishna wasn't the first rama, though in the post-Hindu era, he may well be one of the last.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:24 PM

Right! Muscatel.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:23 PM

Muh man!

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:22 PM

Damn, but you have good taste, buddy. Add a properly drawn pint o' the vile, dark stuff and life is perfect.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:20 PM

Well, in my opinion, there is nothing in the world
Beats a '52 Vincent, and a red-headed girl.

A